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The influence of the EU on Britain.

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  • edited November 2018
    @Southbank


    Haven’t the government consistently said that we are leaving on March 2019? Do you think they are lying?

    I can understand that maybe the terms of our exit aren’t to your liking but I don’t see how you can deny that, as a result of our vote to leave the EU, we are literally leaving the EU.
  • Then perhaps ALL of the UK should had been given a chance to vote on the GFA & not just 5% of the population, or was the conflict just confined to Ireland.......nope, I do recall parts of Birmingham, London & Brighton being blown up too.

    conveniently forgotten about that have we.
    I remember all the atrocities which is why I don't want a return. If you are aggravated that you didn't vote in that referendum you could contact your MP I suppose.
    However we have two referenda that have results that conflict with each other. The GFA one was before the EU one so holds precedent on a first come first served basis.
  • edited November 2018
    Well, there could be an election next year - there shouldn't be as it would not even be half term, but there could be. There can be another referendum.
  • The problem with a 2nd Referendum is what happens if the vote is to Remain.....have a tie break because its 1-1 ?? And why would you follow the verdict of this one.....you didnt for the first one.

    Following your logic it is 1-1 at the moment, isn’t it? Or do you get to decide which referendums count based on your own logic?
  • Whatever the result of a 2nd referendum, I've seen nothing to suggest the losing side would accept it, no matter which side that was.

    The fact that polls don't show any serious swings only highlights how divided the country has become!

    I agree. Another referendum would probably be the blow which splits the country irrevocably.
  • se9addick said:

    Following your logic it is 1-1 at the moment, isn’t it? Or do you get to decide which referendums count based on your own logic?
    Exactly, we had a referendum back when we joined what then became the European Union.

    “BuT I dUn ReMeMbEr vOtiNg FoR A eUroPeAn UnIoN”

    I don’t remember voting on the customs union, the Irish border and all the other issues we are facing to leave the European Union.

    What are you so scared of?
  • edited November 2018
    Main lies:
    Take back control of our border - we always had control.
    Turkey to join EU - never gonna happen.
    Sovereignty -already had it.
    £350 to NHS - Brexit will leave us poorer.
    Straight bananas - yes they really said it!

    Take those lies out of the equation and there would have been no yes vote anyway.
  • seth plum said:

    I agree. Another referendum would probably be the blow which splits the country irrevocably.
    I think we've seen that split already. You can see already that there is a huge rump of people who have nailed their colours to the mast and who will not now be swayed no matter how preposterous their positions.
  • Then perhaps ALL of the UK should had been given a chance to vote on the GFA & not just 5% of the population, or was the conflict just confined to Ireland.......nope, I do recall parts of Birmingham, London & Brighton being blown up too.

    conveniently forgotten about that have we.
    You have conveniently forgotten about half a dozen of my posts, dismantling your preposterous, flawed and occasionally bullshit statements Golfie. One of which was in the last week, following a post where you admitted not knowing what you were talking about regarding Northern Ireland, but you went on to pontificate over it anyway. And here you are again...
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  • Stig said:

    It is curious that you put 'day after day' and 'consistently' in inverted commas as if you are quoting them and then add "Brexiters appear on the BBC" as if that is something that Adonis actually wrote. He didn't.

    Let's actually look at his words. First the 'Day after day' bit: "Day after day BBC Radio’s flagship show – Today – descends into surrealist farce as John Humphrys seems to bark inanities at anyone presenting an evidenced argument against Brexit". Have you ever listened to this show, Southbank? I do regularly and I concur with Adonis 100%, it's embarrassing to hear a once respected journalist barking and sniping without any display of his once fine questioning and reasoning talents. It is adversarial radio at its very worst. As for 'consistently', it appears twice in the text, first "The BBC is consistently manipulated by Brexiteers into providing them with false parity in arguments...". It is; frequently there are no facts behind the pro-Brexit argument, just platitudes, and why would there be when "the people of this country have had enough of experts"? Perhaps worse, often times even the basic terminology used are not explained. 'Taking control', 'sovereignty', '£350m' - all terms that are never questioned and go completely unchallenged by Auntie Beeb. The other use of 'consistently: "the BBC has so consistently failed in its coverage of the campaign for a people’s vote". Again, very hard to argue against this, because the coverage has been paltry and Adonis very nicely juxtaposes this with the Farage fish stunt.

    It looks like someone definitely needs to reread Adonis's article, but I don't think it's Prague.
    It is Southbank's stock-in-trade. He really should be a tabloid hack, I actually admire his mastery of making false statements like they were fact. It is the kind of thing that "won" (see what I did there :wink: ) leave the referendum. Say it long enough and loud enough and sufficient daft people will believe you.

    And in true tabloid tradition, once found out, he just ignores it and starts again with more falsehoods.
  • You have conveniently forgotten about half a dozen of my posts, dismantling your preposterous, flawed and occasionally bullshit statements Golfie. One of which was in the last week, following a post where you admitted not knowing what you were talking about regarding Northern Ireland, but you went on to pontificate over it anyway. And here you are again...
    Give some people a shovel…
  • It is Southbank's stock-in-trade. He really should be a tabloid hack, I actually admire his mastery of making false statements like they were fact. It is the kind of thing that "won" (see what I did there :wink: ) leave the referendum. Say it long enough and loud enough and sufficient daft people will believe you.

    And in true tabloid tradition, once found out, he just ignores it and starts again with more falsehoods.
    This is so true and it's not just Southbank. So often you see that their arguments have been countered, but they just can't admit it. Instead, they go quiet for an hour or two and then the old broken record starts up again as if nothing had happened.
  • edited November 2018
    Southbank said:


    @Southbank Which leavers do you believe the government should have been comprised of?
  • se9addick said:

    @Southbank


    Haven’t the government consistently said that we are leaving on March 2019? Do you think they are lying?

    I can understand that maybe the terms of our exit aren’t to your liking but I don’t see how you can deny that, as a result of our vote to leave the EU, we are literally leaving the EU.

    Controlling our money, laws and borders will be the test, not membership under a different name.
  • Southbank said:

    Controlling our money, laws and borders will be the test, not membership under a different name.
    What part of border control are you most keen on that we dont already have ?

  • It is Southbank's stock-in-trade. He really should be a tabloid hack, I actually admire his mastery of making false statements like they were fact. It is the kind of thing that "won" (see what I did there :wink: ) leave the referendum. Say it long enough and loud enough and sufficient daft people will believe you.

    And in true tabloid tradition, once found out, he just ignores it and starts again with more falsehoods.
    I do listen to Today. Day after day there is a stream of people saying Brexit will be a disaster which is presented as fact, when it is really an opinion.The presenters consistently fail to challenge these assertions.
    But,unlike Adonis, I do not think they should be kept off the air.
  • Maybe not in one sense, but Remainers would have to accept it! Now they believe, rightly or wrongly, that most people do not want what it looks like we could be getting. if they are wrong, it would be time to shut up and get on with it. Any Brexiter who is confident that is not the case would be desperate for another referendum. That fact they are not, tells its own story.

    you reckon ??? not on your nelly. they will still be banging on about it 20 years later,

    just give in & let the remainers have the last say. Cancel Brexit & see where we all are in 20 years time. You think the inflow of migrants will reduce ???
  • edited November 2018

    you reckon ??? not on your nelly. they will still be banging on about it 20 years later,

    just give in & let the remainers have the last say. Cancel Brexit & see where we all are in 20 years time. You think the inflow of migrants will reduce ???
    The inflow of european migrants is driven by the state of the economy so we should probably hope not. Of course the biggest numbers of migrants are non EU anyway. They contribute far less on average to the economy than european migrants do.
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  • you reckon ??? not on your nelly. they will still be banging on about it 20 years later,

    just give in & let the remainers have the last say. Cancel Brexit & see where we all are in 20 years time. You think the inflow of migrants will reduce ???
  • Thank you for providing mor evidence that brexit I'd a good thing. The Irish due to financial mismanagement of there own economy have to borrow a load of money and somehow they make it out to be our fault.

    The UK will be much better off away from this sort of behaviour.
    Yes. Let's stop being a member of a trading bloc because it only tempts us to loan money to other countries and negotiate terms that aren't in our best interest.
  • Chizz said:

    Is the goal merely to reduce the inflow of migrants?

    If so, we could do that at a stroke, by introducing and administering rules for non-EU migrants, who make up approximately half the UK's I flow of migrants. And we could do that without reference to the EU at all and without breaching or changing any international free trade agreements.

    But that's not enough for some people desperately whipped up into a frenzy of fear about foreigners is it? We have to go further and end freedom of movement from citizens of countries far closer to the UK. And, in order to achieve that "goal", we have to rip up the biggest, most lucrative, wide-ranging and beneficial free trade deal we have ever been a participant in.

    So, to reduce the inflow of migrants (whose presence increases, rather than decreases our GDP) we have to lose the benefits of our biggest free trade deal, lose the ability to work in 27 other countries, lose investment in infrastructure in the most needy parts of the UK, threaten Northern Ireland's position in the UK, risk the termination of the Belfast Agreement, see jobs in atomic energy and medicine lost, risk the profitability of our financial services industry, see our economy decline and have a far less clear economic outlook for the next generation or so.

    Leaving the EU to reduce inward migration. Honestly? It's a solution we can't afford, delivered in a way we can't agree on, to a problem we don't understand that is believed to create an issue that doesn't exist.

    And people think remainers should stop "banging on about it"?
    Yeah but apart from that. What has the eu ever done for us ?

  • Thank you for providing mor evidence that brexit I'd a good thing. The Irish due to financial mismanagement of there own economy have to borrow a load of money and somehow they make it out to be our fault.

    The UK will be much better off away from this sort of behaviour.
    Ireland repaid ~45% of the entire EU debt, including your own. You're welcome.
  • >
    Stig said:

    This is so true and it's not just Southbank. So often you see that their arguments have been countered, but they just can't admit it. Instead, they go quiet for an hour or two and then the old broken record starts up again as if nothing had happened.
    Beautifully illustrated by Golfie's "...flow of immigrants..." post, despite being told dozens of times what a load of cobblers it is, with facts to back it up, and now Chizz again takes it apart. He'll be back in a couple of days with the same old rubbish. I cannot understand why they are not embarrassed by looking so daft in public over and over?
  • exactly, the entire reason the tories havent reduced migration significantly is because that will remove the economy's life support. Their need to look economically competent (at least was) more important than reducing migration
  • @micks1950

    I understand your caution about polling data in the light of recent failures both re the referendum and the US presidency. It's wise to be cautious, however I can assure you that the main research agencies were more aghast than the punters, and have worked hard to remedy where they went wrong. In the most recent U.K. GE, one agency, I think it was ComRes, used a different methodology which correctly picked up the trend to Labour. The others took notice even if professional rivalry means they will never admit it openly.

    When it comes to Brexit, I think the most reliable barometer is a "tracker", a poll that asks the same sample the same question over time. The absolute figure is less important than the trend. The biggest of its kind, from YouGov, shows a clear trend towards more people favouring Remain but up to now I don't think it showed as wide a gap as 54:46. So Channel 4 may be an outlier. Or it could be the very latest indicator that the will of the people is slowly but steadily shifting. A 20k sample is not to be sniffed at.

    An interesting test of the pollsters will come tonight from,the US. I am not sure if it's right to assume the problems of pollsters in the US are the same as in the U.K., nevertheless, if the Democrats fail to win enough seats to take Congress, the pollsters still have a problem. However if they do, it suggests the pollsters have got to grips with the political changes, which require a new approach to the sample balance.
  • I think the net value of EU migrants has been calculated at about 2p in the pound in income tax. That is after services, schools, hospitals etc... is taken into account.
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