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Incident in Greenwich
Comments
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No, But it might make them thin twice about committing further acts of violence.Chizz said:
Would inmates repairing sewers have prevented yesterday's shooting?Addickted said:As I said earlier - we need to bring back hard labour.
There are dozens of useful things an inmate can do - like repairing sewers.
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Perhaps we should look for solutions that would prevent people being murdered, first.Addickted said:
No, But it might make them thin twice about committing further acts of violence.Chizz said:
Would inmates repairing sewers have prevented yesterday's shooting?Addickted said:As I said earlier - we need to bring back hard labour.
There are dozens of useful things an inmate can do - like repairing sewers.0 -
Let them carry guns. That might work.Chizz said:
Perhaps we should look for solutions that would prevent people being murdered, first.Addickted said:
No, But it might make them thin twice about committing further acts of violence.Chizz said:
Would inmates repairing sewers have prevented yesterday's shooting?Addickted said:As I said earlier - we need to bring back hard labour.
There are dozens of useful things an inmate can do - like repairing sewers.0 -
So go on, what are they?Chizz said:
Perhaps we should look for solutions that would prevent people being murdered, first.Addickted said:
No, But it might make them thin twice about committing further acts of violence.Chizz said:
Would inmates repairing sewers have prevented yesterday's shooting?Addickted said:As I said earlier - we need to bring back hard labour.
There are dozens of useful things an inmate can do - like repairing sewers.
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I am not claiming to have a full set of answers. But I would suggest far more police is the place to start, not how to occupy previously-caught convicts.Addickted said:
So go on, what are they?Chizz said:
Perhaps we should look for solutions that would prevent people being murdered, first.Addickted said:
No, But it might make them thin twice about committing further acts of violence.Chizz said:
Would inmates repairing sewers have prevented yesterday's shooting?Addickted said:As I said earlier - we need to bring back hard labour.
There are dozens of useful things an inmate can do - like repairing sewers.0 -
Isn’t it more about continued risk from these types of cases, often due to mental health problems.Chippycafc said:I think they do I am sure there are some prisoners (about 20) who are on whole life sentences ie. Peter Sutcliffe (Yorkshire ripper) to name just one.0 -
If you're sentenced to say six months, then you do six months. You don't get time off for good behaviour.
Good behaviour is expected and not something that you should be rewarded for, it doesn't work like that outside of prison, so it shouldn't work like that in prison.
You do get time added for bad behaviour.4 -
First, I’m no expert on gangs or policing, so this is just my perception based on what I see reported here.ShootersHillGuru said:
Agree it’s complex and no simple solutions but I’d like to know why you think tougher sentencing is unlikely to deter those in gangs in particular?SomervilleAddick said:@EveshamAddick, exactly. There is no simple solution, it’s going to take a lot of things in parallel to reduce this - no one thing will solve it, as the motivation in each instance is different. Harsher sentencing is unlikely to deter people involved in gang violence, so the solution there has to be different. Once you start peeling the onion, it gets much more complex.
If if you in a gang, you’re expected to defend your turf and exact retribution against those who threaten your business. If you don’t keep up your end of the bargain, what do you think your life expectancy is? You don’t get to explain that you didn’t want to shoot the dealer who just moved into your area because you might get a life sentence.
When people get involved in gangs, they are generally young, and I doubt they think about the potential custodial sentences they could run into.
But that’s just my opinion.0 -
Thats fair, if you murder someone and get life its only fair that you only do half your sentence inside and then do the rest outside on parole, i mean the person/people you killed gets to come back alive after 11 years dont they.Chizz said:
None of them will be released from their sentence, Paulie. Some may be given the chance to continue serving their sentence outside jail. But not one will be freed from their sentence.paulie8290 said:
How many of those will be released between 11-15 years into their sentenceAddickted said:
2016 data found UK jails were holding 8,554 inmates serving life – more than France, Germany and Italy combined.Chippycafc said:I think they do I am sure there are some prisoners (about 20) who are on whole life sentences ie. Peter Sutcliffe (Yorkshire ripper) to name just one.
Life should mean life
FYI Chizz not saying you think its fair, just stating how stupid it is.1 -
On the subject of how to stop people offending, stop making prisons so comfortable and that will stop some offending.
I have seen so many programmes on tv about reoffenders who state that prison life is so much more comfortable than outside that the re offend to get more time inside2 - Sponsored links:
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What have they got when they come out? For ex offenders it is difficult to turn their lives around as a string of offences doesn’t look good on the CV. They don’t have the money they need to sort out housing and a new life, so they end up back in their old communities and vulnerable to their old ways. Those who have had short sentences can even be released onto the streets as rough sleepers, with no money and no hope of a better life. Vulnerable to be being forced back into the cycle of offending by those dealers and gangs who prey on such individuals.paulie8290 said:On the subject of how to stop people offending, stop making prisons so comfortable and that will stop some offending.
I have seen so many programmes on tv about reoffenders who state that prison life is so much more comfortable than outside that the re offend to get more time inside4 -
Paulie, they serve half their sentence inside, and the rest on licence. If they offend again, or even fail to meet the requirements of their probation, they get recalled into prison.paulie8290 said:Not gonna add much to this thread and it probably already has been said.
Tougher sentences needed
And LIFE SHOULD MEAN LIFE
Feed up with life sentences over here because its not life is it, its what 21 years out in 11/12 for good behaviour, thats bollocks id you get life you should be in jail until u die0 -
I know you didn't mean to lessen the task of repairing sewers mate, I work in the civil engineering game and whilst repairing sewers is graft I wouldn't let just anyone loose on the sewage network because it's a mucky, tough job. You need to know what you are doing. There are already enough corner cutting cowboys in the game without letting a handful of stabbers, rapers and burglars loose!Addickted said:As I said earlier - we need to bring back hard labour.
There are dozens of useful things an inmate can do - like repairing sewers.
Although I've pretty much just described scaffolders so maybe put them with them. A week with a gang of scaffs would make me reconsider my future
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OK. Potholes on the road network. Pay the crims £1 an hour to buy 'luxuries'. Saw a chain gang doing just that in Florida, improving the road network at minimal cost to the tax payer. Win/win.
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But they are still out, seeing family, going to football, having takeaways whatever.EveshamAddick said:
Paulie, they serve half their sentence inside, and the rest on licence. If they offend again, or even fail to meet the requirements of their probation, they get recalled into prison.paulie8290 said:Not gonna add much to this thread and it probably already has been said.
Tougher sentences needed
And LIFE SHOULD MEAN LIFE
Feed up with life sentences over here because its not life is it, its what 21 years out in 11/12 for good behaviour, thats bollocks id you get life you should be in jail until u die
They have comitted a crime deemed worthy for life imprisonment, i dont care if they are released on licence they shouldnt be released at all0 -
Again, not a job for amateurs, not if you want it doing properly. Besides that, repairing roads is a dangerous business and the way the world is so legislative and litigious all it will take is one idiot to hurt themselves and before you know it people with good intentions are getting sued.Addickted said:OK. Potholes on the road network. Pay the crims £1 an hour to buy 'luxuries'. Saw a chain gang doing just that in Florida, improving the road network at minimal cost to the tax payer. Win/win.
I know I'm being picky I totally agree with the sentiment though, jobs like this can be part of rehabilitation.
As an thought, would you want to be the supervisor responsible for a gang of prisoners working within close proximity to traffic, some beautifully dangerous heavy equipment and power tools? Because there isn't enough tea in China for me to consider it. Let's not forget nowadays for major resurfacing work to take place on main roads often night closures are required and time is a premium. Immediately this means you can only have people who know what they are doing and can work at a sharp pace2 -
It's certainly worked in Florida. There are never any crimes committed there, are there?paulie8290 said:
But they are still out, seeing family, going to football, having takeaways whatever.EveshamAddick said:
Paulie, they serve half their sentence inside, and the rest on licence. If they offend again, or even fail to meet the requirements of their probation, they get recalled into prison.paulie8290 said:Not gonna add much to this thread and it probably already has been said.
Tougher sentences needed
And LIFE SHOULD MEAN LIFE
Feed up with life sentences over here because its not life is it, its what 21 years out in 11/12 for good behaviour, thats bollocks id you get life you should be in jail until u die
They have comitted a crime deemed worthy for life imprisonment, i dont care if they are released on licence they shouldnt be released at all1 -
It's not "half" Paulie! If it were "half" of a life sentence, how many years would that be?paulie8290 said:
Thats fair, if you murder someone and get life its only fair that you only do half your sentence inside and then do the rest outside on parole, i mean the person/people you killed gets to come back alive after 11 years dont they.Chizz said:
None of them will be released from their sentence, Paulie. Some may be given the chance to continue serving their sentence outside jail. But not one will be freed from their sentence.paulie8290 said:
How many of those will be released between 11-15 years into their sentenceAddickted said:
2016 data found UK jails were holding 8,554 inmates serving life – more than France, Germany and Italy combined.Chippycafc said:I think they do I am sure there are some prisoners (about 20) who are on whole life sentences ie. Peter Sutcliffe (Yorkshire ripper) to name just one.
Life should mean life
FYI Chizz not saying you think its fair, just stating how stupid it is.
There is a tariff that is usually set at the time of a life sentence being handed down. That might be five, ten, 30, 40 years. That tariff has to be served in prison. Only after that tariff has been served can the prisoner be considered for parole. The judge doesn't set the date that the prisoner leaves prison - he sets the earliest date on which he can be considered for release.1 -
On the subject of Life Imprisonment take the bastard who got "Life with a minimum of 20-years" for impaling three children on the railings outside where they lived in Worcester
He's been released after being inside for forty years yet as the Mother of those children has said, he's bloody out quicker than others who have potentially done worse than what he did0 -
Can anyone explain how more police officers would have prevented any of these murders?
The 'more police' argument holds just as much/little water as the 'tougher sentences' argument in that they are both small sums of the greater part. Both should have a place in any solution and no right, and fair, minded person should think otherwise.
The criterion for recruiting police officers needs to be looked at as well. Too many officers these days are nothing more than cholesterol in a uniform.4 - Sponsored links:
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Not ever? Aside from the practicalities of accommodating prisoners who will never be freed and the cost (c. £22,000 per year per prisoner) surely as a civilised and free society we have to be open to the notion of rehabilitation. Depriving someone of their liberty will only be salutary to that person if they can mend their ways on release with the chance to not reoffend. I think we have already established on here that the prospect of imprisonment does not stop some from offending, just as the prospect of execution does not in the States. Would people not be even more hopeless and have even less to lose if there was no prospect of rehabilitation and a better life?paulie8290 said:
But they are still out, seeing family, going to football, having takeaways whatever.EveshamAddick said:
Paulie, they serve half their sentence inside, and the rest on licence. If they offend again, or even fail to meet the requirements of their probation, they get recalled into prison.paulie8290 said:Not gonna add much to this thread and it probably already has been said.
Tougher sentences needed
And LIFE SHOULD MEAN LIFE
Feed up with life sentences over here because its not life is it, its what 21 years out in 11/12 for good behaviour, thats bollocks id you get life you should be in jail until u die
They have comitted a crime deemed worthy for life imprisonment, i dont care if they are released on licence they shouldnt be released at all
This is not to underplay how those who have lost a loved one must feel when something terrible happens. But “lock em up and throw away the key” is the kind of justice system you could find in unenlightened parts of the world, which are also likely to have more restrictions on the liberties of law abiding citizens.2 -
How do they create that fear like presence?ValleyGary said:
I don’t in any way think immediate action would have prevented it, but over time, if the police have a more fear like presence in urban areas, then it might deter the next generation of potential criminals and gang members away.Chizz said:
I know that you and I are unlikely to agree on how best to deal with this situation, so it's difficult for me to ask this question in a way that's not inflammatory. But, I would genuinely like to know what you think about this. What additional power or force should the police have been allowed to deploy that would have prevented yesterday's murder?ValleyGary said:The police definitely require more power/force.
In Portugal last week you knew that if you acted up, you’d get a baton to the swede. If it was our police, there’s absolutely no doubt people would have taken more liberties. There has to be that slight element of fear.
I can't imagine what additional authority the police could have had which would have stopped the victim being shot yesterday. But if there is something, I would really like to know, because (within reason) it would absolutely get my support.
What additional police power would have prevented yesterday's crime?
At the moment, the met police are a laughing stock amongst young inner city neighbourhoods. Little fat PCO’s trying to ‘get down with the kids’ isn’t the way forward in my opinion. If a group of coppers walk through an estate then it should put the fear up these kids.
Im not saying it’s the answer, but I think it’ll have some sort of effect.
As mentioned already, these kids arent scared of the punishments being handed out
Is National Service an answer (I wouldnt know as wasnt around when it was in place), the only other way to instil fear would be to give the Police the power to go to town with actual force whenever they spot trouble, the problem with that though is where do you draw the line as Gangs would surely respond to force with actions of their own
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Care, compassion and a bucket load of empathy.ForeverAddickted said:
How do they create that fear like presence?ValleyGary said:
I don’t in any way think immediate action would have prevented it, but over time, if the police have a more fear like presence in urban areas, then it might deter the next generation of potential criminals and gang members away.Chizz said:
I know that you and I are unlikely to agree on how best to deal with this situation, so it's difficult for me to ask this question in a way that's not inflammatory. But, I would genuinely like to know what you think about this. What additional power or force should the police have been allowed to deploy that would have prevented yesterday's murder?ValleyGary said:The police definitely require more power/force.
In Portugal last week you knew that if you acted up, you’d get a baton to the swede. If it was our police, there’s absolutely no doubt people would have taken more liberties. There has to be that slight element of fear.
I can't imagine what additional authority the police could have had which would have stopped the victim being shot yesterday. But if there is something, I would really like to know, because (within reason) it would absolutely get my support.
What additional police power would have prevented yesterday's crime?
At the moment, the met police are a laughing stock amongst young inner city neighbourhoods. Little fat PCO’s trying to ‘get down with the kids’ isn’t the way forward in my opinion. If a group of coppers walk through an estate then it should put the fear up these kids.
Im not saying it’s the answer, but I think it’ll have some sort of effect.3 -
Of course one of the aims of a custodial sentence should be rehabilitation. What reason could there possibly be for not trying that. People are able and do change their lives and turn it around. They should be given every assistance to do so. Not all prisoners will want to be rehabilitated but that’s not to say they shouldn’t receive help. There will be crimes that are so heinous that parole is never an option and for those who continue to be a danger to others then life should mean life. For life to mean life for all those that receive that sentence would not in my view be right or progressive. I’m not bothered by the argument that prisons can’t accommodate the numbers. Build more prisons if necessary and it’s certainly a scandal that our prisons are internationally a disgrace. All governments are complicit in that national shame.EveshamAddick said:
Not ever? Aside from the practicalities of accommodating prisoners who will never be freed and the cost (c. £22,000 per year per prisoner) surely as a civilised and free society we have to be open to the notion of rehabilitation. Depriving someone of their liberty will only be salutary to that person if they can mend their ways on release with the chance to not reoffend. I think we have already established on here that the prospect of imprisonment does not stop some from offending, just as the prospect of execution does not in the States. Would people not be even more hopeless and have even less to lose if there was no prospect of rehabilitation and a better life?paulie8290 said:
But they are still out, seeing family, going to football, having takeaways whatever.EveshamAddick said:
Paulie, they serve half their sentence inside, and the rest on licence. If they offend again, or even fail to meet the requirements of their probation, they get recalled into prison.paulie8290 said:Not gonna add much to this thread and it probably already has been said.
Tougher sentences needed
And LIFE SHOULD MEAN LIFE
Feed up with life sentences over here because its not life is it, its what 21 years out in 11/12 for good behaviour, thats bollocks id you get life you should be in jail until u die
They have comitted a crime deemed worthy for life imprisonment, i dont care if they are released on licence they shouldnt be released at all
This is not to underplay how those who have lost a loved one must feel when something terrible happens. But “lock em up and throw away the key” is the kind of justice system you could find in unenlightened parts of the world, which are also likely to have more restrictions on the liberties of law abiding citizens.0 -
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Bournemouth Addick said:.
I agree1 -
Would be interesting to hear the views of the guys living in China in relation to this debate.0
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In theory. It doesn't happen. Austerity. Tory cuts.EveshamAddick said:
Paulie, they serve half their sentence inside, and the rest on licence. If they offend again, or even fail to meet the requirements of their probation, they get recalled into prison.paulie8290 said:Not gonna add much to this thread and it probably already has been said.
Tougher sentences needed
And LIFE SHOULD MEAN LIFE
Feed up with life sentences over here because its not life is it, its what 21 years out in 11/12 for good behaviour, thats bollocks id you get life you should be in jail until u die0 -
Fuck's sake. I'm agreeing with a spanner here.Big_Bad_World said:Can anyone explain how more police officers would have prevented any of these murders?
The 'more police' argument holds just as much/little water as the 'tougher sentences' argument in that they are both small sums of the greater part. Both should have a place in any solution and no right, and fair, minded person should think otherwise.
The criterion for recruiting police officers needs to be looked at as well. Too many officers these days are nothing more than cholesterol in a uniform.
This gets closer to 'the answer' than most other posts. It's a more complicated problem than 'more coppers!' or 'longer sentences!' or 'no tellies inside!'
Like everything else in life, solutions can't just be 'found' to problems by clicking your fingers. Whilst it might be convenient to think whatever fits your world view is the correct answer, the fact that being 'tougher' on crime hasn't made the slightest bit of difference to murder rates pretty much anywhere its been implemented (and whoever posted the laughable example earlier of death squads in Central America should hang their head in shame) - equally, the fact that countries with a restorative approach to justice (much of Scandinavia for instance) still see crimes committed means that isn't necessarily the solution either.
Cutting coppers in the name of austerity doesn't help. Neither does a lack of role models for kids committing these crimes. Neither does the deafening silence within communities when community police ask for assistance in bringing known killers to justice. Neither does the fact that being inside is often a better option for their immediate safety than being out on the streets once they're immersed in rhe 'culture' of violence and 'respect'
The answer, as with pretty much everything in life, doesn't lie in the confirmation bias of your Facebook and Twatter echo chamber. It lies in understanding that the issues are complex, and require thinking outside your comfort zone sometimes.6 -
Well, assuming that you don’t commit random acts of murder as your first crime, I guess having more police officers might mean that the perpetrators had been more effectively picked up for previous crimes before it escalated to this level. Additionally, having a more visible police presence might create an environment where people don’t think they can kill and get away with it.Big_Bad_World said:Can anyone explain how more police officers would have prevented any of these murders?
The 'more police' argument holds just as much/little water as the 'tougher sentences' argument in that they are both small sums of the greater part. Both should have a place in any solution and no right, and fair, minded person should think otherwise.
The criterion for recruiting police officers needs to be looked at as well. Too many officers these days are nothing more than cholesterol in a uniform.
I’m playing devils advocate because I don’t think increasing police numbers alone will change much, but I think it is likely to be part of the overall solution.3
This discussion has been closed.
