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Electric Cars
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I hired a Tesla Model S last year in the States. It was the most fun I've ever had in a car, and I didn't even dabble with Autopilot or anything like that. We used the Supercharging network at a nearby shopping centre most. It wasn't a chore at all, in fact we had fun. We'd hook up and then go shopping and we'd get middle excited seeing the different models come through at different times. It really felt like we were living in the future. Ours was a 2016 model and did about 300 miles on a full charge. It had LTE for navigation and entertainment.
They're now producing them in right-hand drive for the UK market, but I have no idea the cost relative to others.
Electric cars are certainly the future. But I liken it to the evolution of phones. For me, electric cars from the major incumbent manufacturers are nice, like the original smartphones from BlackBerry. BlackBerry's were the logical full extension of a "phone", as electric Nissan's etc. are an evolution in zero emissions cars. But, like the original iPhone was a computer masquerading as a phone, Tesla's are really computers masquerading as vehicles. I think there's a big difference.2 -
Highly recommend this Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/fullychargedshowThey produce great videos like this one:
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No 2 ways about it electric cars are the future
Once the ICE engine has finally left the planet most of us if we are still around will be driving electric vehicles. I really want to have a play in a Tesla model S and press the ludicrous mode button0 -
Probably.PragueAddick said:Can't recall who, but someone connected to the U.K. climate targets was arguing yesterday that -by 2050 - the U.K. will need 25million charging points!!!
But, by 2050, we will have a much more sophisticated view as to what a "charging point" is. And if it merely means "power socket", it would be interesting to ask your interlocutor how many he/she think there are already.
There are (very, very roughly) 24 million cars in the UK. On average, 23 million of them are parked.
The biggest change we will see between now and 2050 is in the ownership of cars. It will gradually dawn on most of us that paying depreciation for a car that's parked 23 hours a day and paying for its servicing, charging and tax is no longer worth it, compared to 24x7, always-on, pay as you go car sharing.3 -
Tesla is an American car, developed by a bloke with no previous auto experience, and who is under huge pressure to meet production targets, especially for the 3.
Remind me how American cars perform in the reliability league...0 -
We didn't have ludicrous mode in ours and it wasn't even a performance model. Still, it did 0-60 in just 3.2 seconds. Leaves a grin on everyone's face.1
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Danepak said:
It depends.bobmunro said:blackpool72 said:The cost of replacing the batteries is more than a lot of people pay for a car.
This is what needs to be addressed to make buying an electric car an option for me
Totally agree - and a five year old electric only is not a car I would recommend for someone on a low budget.
Mine was 6 years old when I bought it. Battery SoH (State of Health) was still 75%. Now, a year later, it’s down to 73%. It’s saved me approx NZ$3000 (GBP1500) and I drive approx 15000km annually.
I wouldn’t use it for long drives, but I rarely drive more than 100km in it in a day anyway (generally only 50km max) and with an approx range for 110km, it’s handy.
To me that's electric cars in a nutshell. I'm driving up to West Brom on sat. Its 120 miles (200 km). In your car I cant do it without stopping & recharging......and when I get there I probably have to find a recharging point to charge it whilst I'm at the game. In my current (diesel) car & can do over 700 miles (1000 km) on a full tank. No stopping needed at all & no need to search for a charging station(which I expect are few & far between).0 -
Exactly, as I said. It all depends. We've got a family car as well (Honda), which is used for longer trips.golfaddick said:Danepak said:
It depends.bobmunro said:blackpool72 said:The cost of replacing the batteries is more than a lot of people pay for a car.
This is what needs to be addressed to make buying an electric car an option for me
Totally agree - and a five year old electric only is not a car I would recommend for someone on a low budget.
Mine was 6 years old when I bought it. Battery SoH (State of Health) was still 75%. Now, a year later, it’s down to 73%. It’s saved me approx NZ$3000 (GBP1500) and I drive approx 15000km annually.
I wouldn’t use it for long drives, but I rarely drive more than 100km in it in a day anyway (generally only 50km max) and with an approx range for 110km, it’s handy.
To me that's electric cars in a nutshell. I'm driving up to West Brom on sat. Its 120 miles (200 km). In your car I cant do it without stopping & recharging......and when I get there I probably have to find a recharging point to charge it whilst I'm at the game. In my current (diesel) car & can do over 700 miles (1000 km) on a full tank. No stopping needed at all & no need to search for a charging station(which I expect are few & far between).
Would hate do to a long trip in the Nissan Leaf (as you pointed out, you'll have to recharge) but for day to day stuff it's perfect.0 -
Jim Radcliffe is designing a new electric car. To be made in Bridgend I believe. I suspect it will be more advanced than those out there now.0
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Just over three years ago, James Dyson announced plans to design, produce and sell an electric car. Since then, he's spent time understanding the economics involved, how his aspirations may not fully be realised and what the whole project was going to cost him.
It's a great example of a decision being made in June 2016 which tuns out not to have had the positive benefits originally planned. It's a good job he's been able to change his mind.8 - Sponsored links:
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I've changed my mind too since 2016. At that time I thought both the electorate & politicians were mostly noble & honorable. Over the last year or so I've come to the conclusion that a lot of people cant accept that they have to do what their constituents voted them in to do & a lot more cant seem to get their head round the word "democracy".Chizz said:Just over three years ago, James Dyson announced plans to design, produce and sell an electric car. Since then, he's spent time understanding the economics involved, how his aspirations may not fully be realised and what the whole project was going to cost him.
It's a great example of a decision being made in June 2016 which tuns out not to have had the positive benefits originally planned. It's a good job he's been able to change his mind.
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I went to a presentation of the 30 year build programme for media city in Salford quays. There was another car park in the plans. But the view was this would not be built.Primarily for the reasons you mention Chizz. Bettertransport infrastructure and the ability to pick up a car from a pool when you need it. Will replace car ownership as a model. Not sure if this will work in non city centre locatons but it was a surprise.Chizz said:
Probably.PragueAddick said:Can't recall who, but someone connected to the U.K. climate targets was arguing yesterday that -by 2050 - the U.K. will need 25million charging points!!!
But, by 2050, we will have a much more sophisticated view as to what a "charging point" is. And if it merely means "power socket", it would be interesting to ask your interlocutor how many he/she think there are already.
There are (very, very roughly) 24 million cars in the UK. On average, 23 million of them are parked.
The biggest change we will see between now and 2050 is in the ownership of cars. It will gradually dawn on most of us that paying depreciation for a car that's parked 23 hours a day and paying for its servicing, charging and tax is no longer worth it, compared to 24x7, always-on, pay as you go car sharing.1 -
That's a remarkable similarity. The only difference being that Dyson has re-evaluated his decision based on facts that have come to light and you have decided that, despite facts coming to light, you were right all along and everyone else is to blame.golfaddick said:
I've changed my mind too since 2016. At that time I thought both the electorate & politicians were mostly noble & honorable. Over the last year or so I've come to the conclusion that a lot of people cant accept that they have to do what their constituents voted them in to do & a lot more cant seem to get their head round the word "democracy".Chizz said:Just over three years ago, James Dyson announced plans to design, produce and sell an electric car. Since then, he's spent time understanding the economics involved, how his aspirations may not fully be realised and what the whole project was going to cost him.
It's a great example of a decision being made in June 2016 which tuns out not to have had the positive benefits originally planned. It's a good job he's been able to change his mind.
But that's ok. We all decide what's right for us based on what we know now and what we think is going to happen in the future. And the ones that do best are the ones that have the most flexible approach to decisions.
So, best of luck with your stubborn, unflinching accommodation of diesel-powered cars, because you might find that, yet again, everyone else is wrong and diesel is the fuel of the future. I hope that, despite the evidence, you will still be able to reach a source of diesel within a round-trip that dramatically eats in to your 1,000km range. And you can afford to fill up once you get there. Because the lack of demand will mean paucity of supply; and government intervention will only increase diesel prices. But, I guess that will only be down to the electorate and politicians being dishonourable and lacking in nobility.2 -
Greta knows0
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I listened to a debate on the radio earlier this year and the simple fact is the National Grid in the UK would not stand up to the demands of 5 million extra charging points based on today's consumption let alone 25 million.PragueAddick said:Can't recall who, but someone connected to the U.K. climate targets was arguing yesterday that -by 2050 - the U.K. will need 25million charging points!!!
Another reason why I hope we are on the right lines, and would like to see the evidence. This comes in the same week that the U.K. shale experiment was effectively ditched, 4 years after politicians were gleefully claiming that it would free us from the shackles of imported energy.
I was in a car park in East London last week and a guy was kicking off big time on his phone, there was one charging bay and that was in use, I heard him shout to whoever he was talking too the "fucking thing was flat and would not move"
We are nowhere near geared up for the electric car in the UK if, and a big if, a lot more people bought one.
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Where will the government raise the money lost in fuel duty when petrol sales fall?3
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Now that is a very good question. Allied to, where will BP, Shell, Gazprom etc recover their lost revenues.HardyAddick said:Where will the government raise the money lost in fuel duty when petrol sales fall?0 -
"Most electric cars can be charged at home using a standard three-pin domestic plug socket" (RAC). There are 27.6m households in the UK (ONS). An average, two bedroom house has forty, standard three-pin domestic plug sockets (Electrical safety first). That's a total of more than one point one billion sockets that can be used to charge cars.eaststandmike said:
I listened to a debate on the radio earlier this year and the simple fact is the National Grid in the UK would not stand up to the demands of 5 million extra charging points based on today's consumption let alone 25 million.PragueAddick said:Can't recall who, but someone connected to the U.K. climate targets was arguing yesterday that -by 2050 - the U.K. will need 25million charging points!!!
Another reason why I hope we are on the right lines, and would like to see the evidence. This comes in the same week that the U.K. shale experiment was effectively ditched, 4 years after politicians were gleefully claiming that it would free us from the shackles of imported energy.
I was in a car park in East London last week and a guy was kicking off big time on his phone, there was one charging bay and that was in use, I heard him shout to whoever he was talking too the "fucking thing was flat and would not move"
We are nowhere near geared up for the electric car in the UK if, and a big if, a lot more people bought one.
The claim that we need 25 million charging points over and above the sockets in homes is absurd. For it to be true, we would have to have changed virtually every single car in the UK to electric-only; and for everyone to need to charge them up at the same time.
It's a Luddite argument to suggest that there will be insufficient charging points in future for the total number of privately-owned cars.
Your anecdote about the stroppy man on the phone in East London is interesting, @eaststandmike - but it also illustrates the point quite well. Because he was on one of 37 million smartphones in the UK. And he had enough charge.1 -
Chizz said:
"Most electric cars can be charged at home using a standard three-pin domestic plug socket" (RAC). There are 27.6m households in the UK (ONS). An average, two bedroom house has forty, standard three-pin domestic plug sockets (Electrical safety first). That's a total of more than one point one billion sockets that can be used to charge cars.eaststandmike said:
I listened to a debate on the radio earlier this year and the simple fact is the National Grid in the UK would not stand up to the demands of 5 million extra charging points based on today's consumption let alone 25 million.PragueAddick said:Can't recall who, but someone connected to the U.K. climate targets was arguing yesterday that -by 2050 - the U.K. will need 25million charging points!!!
Another reason why I hope we are on the right lines, and would like to see the evidence. This comes in the same week that the U.K. shale experiment was effectively ditched, 4 years after politicians were gleefully claiming that it would free us from the shackles of imported energy.
I was in a car park in East London last week and a guy was kicking off big time on his phone, there was one charging bay and that was in use, I heard him shout to whoever he was talking too the "fucking thing was flat and would not move"
We are nowhere near geared up for the electric car in the UK if, and a big if, a lot more people bought one.
The claim that we need 25 million charging points over and above the sockets in homes is absurd. For it to be true, we would have to have changed virtually every single car in the UK to electric-only; and for everyone to need to charge them up at the same time.
It's a Luddite argument to suggest that there will be insufficient charging points in future for the total number of privately-owned cars.
Your anecdote about the stroppy man on the phone in East London is interesting, @eaststandmike - but it also illustrates the point quite well. Because he was on one of 37 million smartphones in the UK. And he had enough charge.
The electric car I'm getting has a 94kw battery - slightly more than a mobile phone. And charging it off a standard socket would take around 3 days!The 7kwh wall box I'm getting fitted will charge it overnight, but I'm lucky to have off road parking.
Home charging is a lot easier, and cheaper, than using service station or public charge points - and I accept your point about the number of required charging points of 25 million is a silly figure. But the national grid capacity argument is still valid.
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Again I ask, (because I want to believe the answer is positive) are we are all convinced that the build to scrap environmental impact of a Nissan Leaf (including the batteries) is less than that of a petrol Nissan Juke? And if so, can you recall the sources from which you made that conclusion?
Sorry to persist, I'm very worried about climate change and keen to do my bit, but some more sceptical friends rattle me on this issue, as I haven't got the facts.1 -
I know I'm gonna be shot down, but I do think these electric cars are a bit of a gimmick. As pointed out above, if you compare like for like with a small petrol equivalent, taking into account the battery (manufacture and disposal of), and the source of energy to charge said baterry, there's probably not a lot in it with regards to carbon footprint. Driving electric cars could possibly be cheaper though?0
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It's a couple of years old, but this article might help PragueAddick: https://www.theguardian.com/football/ng-interactive/2017/dec/25/how-green-are-electric-cars
Says "A report by the Ricardo consultancy... estimated that over its whole lifecycle, the electric car would still be responsible for 80% of the emissions of the petrol car."
Certainly would reduce emissions at the point of use.1 -
i_b_b_o_r_g said:I know I'm gonna be shot down, but I do think these electric cars are a bit of a gimmick. As pointed out above, if you compare like for like with a small petrol equivalent, taking into account the battery (manufacture and disposal of), and the source of energy to charge said baterry, there's probably not a lot in it with regards to carbon footprint. Driving electric cars could possibly be cheaper though?
I won't shoot you down - you're correct. I'm getting one because it saves me a small fortune in benefit in kind tax (company car). If full EVs were treated the same in terms of 'Benefit in Kind' as full petrol then I would have ordered a big V8 petrol! But they are a bit more than a gimmick because for certain lifestyles they work well and in terms of outright performance they destroy most internal combustion cars.Longer term is where electric vehicles will start to repay the carbon footprint - when there are more renewables generating electricity and when the fossil fuel supply starts to decline dramatically.
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Well electricity can be generated and be relatively clean, sustainable and renewable but petrol is a product of fossil fuel and has a much greater impact as a carbon footprint and leaves particulates in the atmosphere, so on that basis there is a massive difference.i_b_b_o_r_g said:I know I'm gonna be shot down, but I do think these electric cars are a bit of a gimmick. As pointed out above, if you compare like for like with a small petrol equivalent, taking into account the battery (manufacture and disposal of), and the source of energy to charge said baterry, there's probably not a lot in it with regards to carbon footprint. Driving electric cars could possibly be cheaper though?2 -
Does performance drop in Autumn!?Danepak said:
I’ve got a Nissan Leaf (2012).Mendonca In Asdas said:Honda have brought forward their plans to get shot of diesel and petrol cars and only go with electric from 2022 onward in Europe.
I wonder whether all the other manufacturers will go the same way?
I wonder if anyone on here has / had experience of owning / using an electric car?
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.autoblog.com/amp/2019/10/23/honda-europe-fully-electrified-2020/
I just don’t know how reliable the technology is, and is it all a bit of a fag at the moment charging a car up?
Apart from the short range (approx 110km), I love it. Very handy for shorter trips.
Can charge it overnight (takes approx 8 hours with a near flat battery).
Otherwise fast chargers gets you up to 90% in approx 30 mins.
Zippy (big torque), makes it fun to dri4 -
Road pricing.HardyAddick said:Where will the government raise the money lost in fuel duty when petrol sales fall?
Back on the agenda big time.0 -
Thanks, very interesting. Actually it links to an FT article which is even more critical. Based on that, I think policymakers are assuming a lot of development in battery technology, both reducing size, and what goes inot their manufacturer. Their assumptions had better be correct!GNelson said:It's a couple of years old, but this article might help PragueAddick: https://www.theguardian.com/football/ng-interactive/2017/dec/25/how-green-are-electric-cars
Says "A report by the Ricardo consultancy... estimated that over its whole lifecycle, the electric car would still be responsible for 80% of the emissions of the petrol car."
Certainly would reduce emissions at the point of use.0 -
This summary of battery technology innovations is from June, not all relevant to cars and some seem more like April fools jokes to me, but i do not have a science background! There are links to company innovators some of which are advanced and probably very investable;
https://www.pocket-lint.com/gadgets/news/130380-future-batteries-coming-soon-charge-in-seconds-last-months-and-power-over-the-air1 -
That's very good news; I hadn't realised that. I think a bigger problem will be not that there aren't sockets per se but how close people can park to them. I know people who are lucky to get a space in their own street, let alone outside their own house. A quarter of the population live in terraced houses. It's a fair bet that the majority of these don't have off road parking, what about the wires trailing over the pavement?Chizz said:
"Most electric cars can be charged at home using a standard three-pin domestic plug socket" (RAC). There are 27.6m households in the UK (ONS). An average, two bedroom house has forty, standard three-pin domestic plug sockets (Electrical safety first). That's a total of more than one point one billion sockets that can be used to charge cars.eaststandmike said:
I listened to a debate on the radio earlier this year and the simple fact is the National Grid in the UK would not stand up to the demands of 5 million extra charging points based on today's consumption let alone 25 million.PragueAddick said:Can't recall who, but someone connected to the U.K. climate targets was arguing yesterday that -by 2050 - the U.K. will need 25million charging points!!!
Another reason why I hope we are on the right lines, and would like to see the evidence. This comes in the same week that the U.K. shale experiment was effectively ditched, 4 years after politicians were gleefully claiming that it would free us from the shackles of imported energy.
I was in a car park in East London last week and a guy was kicking off big time on his phone, there was one charging bay and that was in use, I heard him shout to whoever he was talking too the "fucking thing was flat and would not move"
We are nowhere near geared up for the electric car in the UK if, and a big if, a lot more people bought one.
The claim that we need 25 million charging points over and above the sockets in homes is absurd. For it to be true, we would have to have changed virtually every single car in the UK to electric-only; and for everyone to need to charge them up at the same time.
It's a Luddite argument to suggest that there will be insufficient charging points in future for the total number of privately-owned cars.
Your anecdote about the stroppy man on the phone in East London is interesting, @eaststandmike - but it also illustrates the point quite well. Because he was on one of 37 million smartphones in the UK. And he had enough charge.2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9X44THYf4tI
