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Harsh on Williams today

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  • KBslittlesis
    KBslittlesis Posts: 8,602
    PeanutsMolloy said:
    MuttleyCAFC said:
    We are a big side in a shit league. Bowyer is showing signs of losing it and acting in a way by singling out players for public criticism that will lose you the dressing room. This needs sorting out to increase our chances of getting promotion.

    I am not saying sack him, I am saying he needs to sort this out urgently or be sacked. We are in league One FFS! Do you actually watch and understand how shit this league actually is?
    We were 48 hours from administration less than 3 months ago and rescued with the transfer window about to close.
    We were damn lucky that Bow, Jacko and Steve G stuck with us through all the shit that went before.
    Get real FFS.
    👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
  • FishCostaFortune
    FishCostaFortune Posts: 10,773
    edited December 2020
    Everytime we go on a bad run there is always talk about dressing room unrest. I expect it's the same for most football teams as well.

    To say that Bowyer has lost the plot and there's no tactics is completely wrong in my opinion which makes me think that what @J-Block has heard may have been misinterpreted. Though also there is no smoke without fire and few posters have mentioned similar. 

    I've already mentioned previously how I'm falling out of love with watching Bowyer's brand of football. We don't look great when we win, and we look awful when we lose. However this usually because we are a very well drilled and defend really well and usually end up limiting opponents to long shots whilst not creating anything ourselves.

    I'd say that the opposite of having no tactics. Indeed those tactics can be very effective - but you don't look good doing it. 
  • MuttleyCAFC
    MuttleyCAFC Posts: 47,728
    There was time to bring in decent players which we did. I haven't said that we didn't. We have a squad good enough to get promoted and dissing players publicly is not the way to do it. Neither is Alamo tactics against Shrewsbury or allowing your temper to get the better of you. All observations that are there for all to see.
  • cafcfan1990
    cafcfan1990 Posts: 12,811
    PeanutsMolloy said:
    MuttleyCAFC said:
    We are a big side in a shit league. Bowyer is showing signs of losing it and acting in a way by singling out players for public criticism that will lose you the dressing room. This needs sorting out to increase our chances of getting promotion.

    I am not saying sack him, I am saying he needs to sort this out urgently or be sacked. We are in league One FFS! Do you actually watch and understand how shit this league actually is?
    We were 48 hours from administration less than 3 months ago and rescued with the transfer window about to close.
    We were damn lucky that Bow, Jacko and Steve G stuck with us through all the shit that went before.
    Get real FFS.
    I absolutely agree with this post. However, the question is when do you look past the fact Bowyer stayed loyal. 

    For clarity, im definitely not in the get rid of Bowyer camp. I 100% agree he’s earnt that extra bit of loyalty. But I keep seeing two points mentioned, firstly that we can’t sack him because he stuck by us, and secondly that we should just be grateful we have a club. 

    I agree with both of those but when does that end. We get relegated to the national league under Bowyer but we should just be grateful we have a club? It’s not going to be a nice day but there could well come a point where we have to forget the past and concentrate on the present and future. 
  • Briston_Addick
    Briston_Addick Posts: 11,677
    edited December 2020
    MuttleyCAFC said:
    We are a big side in a shit league. Bowyer is showing signs of losing it and acting in a way by singling out players for public criticism that will lose you the dressing room. This needs sorting out to increase our chances of getting promotion.

    I am not saying sack him, I am saying he needs to sort this out urgently or be sacked. We are in league One FFS! Do you actually watch and understand how shit this league actually is?
    Of course we're a big side. This is our seventh (7th) season in this shit league in the last ten years or so, so we must be close to claiming seniority rights.


  • Greenie
    Greenie Posts: 9,172
    Having watched Bows post match interview on EFL Quest, I make him right, professional footballers should not be bottling tackles, Williams bottled out and that has no place in a Charlton team and he was right to hook him. 
    Yep right to give him a public bollocking as well,  maybe he’ll sort himself out, unlucky if Williams feels sorry for himself, bless him......! 
  • Dazzler21
    Dazzler21 Posts: 51,344
    CharltontillidieCOYR said:
    J BLOCK said:
    Dazzler21 said:
    J BLOCK said:
    Quote from one of the first team players this morning.

    "Bowyer has f****** lost it"
    Would like to know if they meant gone batshit for the mistakes or actually lost it?

    He can't expect perfection every game from his players, just as we should not expect it from him and the players. 
    Lost it as in, 'the plot'. I can also add "that tactics are non existence"
    Im sorry havent read past this point to see what others have said or whats been expanded on but if this is even true whatever first team player is saying this hasnt been here long at all or showed even a tiny bit as much loyalty or passion as bowyer has 
    Not sure you're right there.
  • Dazzler21
    Dazzler21 Posts: 51,344
    edited December 2020
    Greenie said:
    Having watched Bows post match interview on EFL Quest, I make him right, professional footballers should not be bottling tackles, Williams bottled out and that has no place in a Charlton team and he was right to hook him. 
    Yep right to give him a public bollocking as well,  maybe he’ll sort himself out, unlucky if Williams feels sorry for himself, bless him......! 
    A player that has been open about his mental health struggles...

    Nice...

    Bowyer should be consulting him about performances in a professional way not slagging him off to the millions of fans that will see what he's said either through the video or press comments on social media etc...
  • Dave Rudd
    Dave Rudd Posts: 2,865
    Recognising all the uproar regarding the way Bowyer dealt with Williams, I have a different question:

    Why is Bowyer finding out about 'Waterford' Williams' tackling ability (or lack of tackling ability) in a match situation? 

    Does Williams regularly take out his team-mates in training?  I don't think so.  Is 'Crystal' Johnny the man to fear in a head-to-head with Pearce?  Probably not.

    So, Williams has simply done what we would expect Williams to do ... avoid confrontation, avoid injury.  It's difficult to see why Bowyer would have expected anything else.

    Personally, I'd be much more concerned about the dreadful tackle that Morgan produced.  That was horrible ... but it has hardly received a mention.
  • balham red
    balham red Posts: 1,278
    In the starting 11 against Shrewsbury and been at the club for a decent while. Playing Guess Who reduces it to Pratley, Pearce or JFC.

    Would be a shame if it was Pratley as someone suggested, given he is clearly one of Bowyer's favourites.
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  • Leuth
    Leuth Posts: 23,314
    Dave Rudd said:
    Recognising all the uproar regarding the way Bowyer dealt with Williams, I have a different question:

    Why is Bowyer finding out about 'Waterford' Williams' tackling ability (or lack of tackling ability) in a match situation? 

    Does Williams regularly take out his team-mates in training?  I don't think so.  Is 'Crystal' Johnny the man to fear in a head-to-head with Pearce?  Probably not.

    So, Williams has simply done what we would expect Williams to do ... avoid confrontation, avoid injury.  It's difficult to see why Bowyer would have expected anything else.

    Personally, I'd be much more concerned about the dreadful tackle that Morgan produced.  That was horrible ... but it has hardly received a mention.
    Morgan's developed some bite, good to see, hopefully he can start putting notches in his 'other professionals injured' bedpost soon, maybe he can quit it with the forward passes too, just watch videos of Souness and Hunter, turn himself into Hatchet Albie, scourge of the South 
  • Cafc43v3r
    Cafc43v3r Posts: 21,600
    Covered End said:
    Chunes said:
    WattsTheMatter said:
    Williams starts for Wales. His coming on changed the Playoff final. 
    We're going all the way back to the play-off final
    To be fair he did have a very good 30 mins, in a L1 game (play off final) 18 months ago.
    He was outstanding for the first few months in the championship and anyone saying other wise is either blind, being obtuse or deliberately argumentative to fit an agenda. 
  • Greenie
    Greenie Posts: 9,172
    edited December 2020
    Dazzler21 said:
    Greenie said:
    Having watched Bows post match interview on EFL Quest, I make him right, professional footballers should not be bottling tackles, Williams bottled out and that has no place in a Charlton team and he was right to hook him. 
    Yep right to give him a public bollocking as well,  maybe he’ll sort himself out, unlucky if Williams feels sorry for himself, bless him......! 
    A player that has been open about his mental health struggles...

    Nice...
    Blah blah blah...mental health....blah blah blah...
    He’s a professional footballer, he plies his trade in a public arena where he is paid handsomely in a results driven profession, where he will be physically and mentally picked apart, what about if he didn’t like heading the ball, does Bow say ‘ok my little cherub, don’t let that big heavy ball mess up your bald pate’.


  • MuttleyCAFC
    MuttleyCAFC Posts: 47,728
    edited December 2020
    Dave Rudd said:
    Recognising all the uproar regarding the way Bowyer dealt with Williams, I have a different question:

    Why is Bowyer finding out about 'Waterford' Williams' tackling ability (or lack of tackling ability) in a match situation? 

    Does Williams regularly take out his team-mates in training?  I don't think so.  Is 'Crystal' Johnny the man to fear in a head-to-head with Pearce?  Probably not.

    So, Williams has simply done what we would expect Williams to do ... avoid confrontation, avoid injury.  It's difficult to see why Bowyer would have expected anything else.

    Personally, I'd be much more concerned about the dreadful tackle that Morgan produced.  That was horrible ... but it has hardly received a mention.
    And why has Gunter given away two needless penalties in recent times costing us four valuable points? But we shouldn't be hearing that either. That should be a conversation between the player and coaching staff. In fact I would be surprised if that conversation hasn't taken place.
  • MattF
    MattF Posts: 3,797
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Covered End said:
    Chunes said:
    WattsTheMatter said:
    Williams starts for Wales. His coming on changed the Playoff final. 
    We're going all the way back to the play-off final
    To be fair he did have a very good 30 mins, in a L1 game (play off final) 18 months ago.
    He was outstanding for the first few months in the championship and anyone saying other wise is either blind, being obtuse or deliberately argumentative to fit an agenda. 
    Yup, and in the words of Marcelo Bielsa last September, “Number seven was the playmaker of the opponent. In their attack they had 14, 11 and 10 in the second half. They didn’t create one option. It’s difficult to judge individual performances as negative when they didn’t build attacking play.”
  • Cafc43v3r
    Cafc43v3r Posts: 21,600
    Leuth said:
    Dave Rudd said:
    Recognising all the uproar regarding the way Bowyer dealt with Williams, I have a different question:

    Why is Bowyer finding out about 'Waterford' Williams' tackling ability (or lack of tackling ability) in a match situation? 

    Does Williams regularly take out his team-mates in training?  I don't think so.  Is 'Crystal' Johnny the man to fear in a head-to-head with Pearce?  Probably not.

    So, Williams has simply done what we would expect Williams to do ... avoid confrontation, avoid injury.  It's difficult to see why Bowyer would have expected anything else.

    Personally, I'd be much more concerned about the dreadful tackle that Morgan produced.  That was horrible ... but it has hardly received a mention.
    Morgan's developed some bite, good to see, hopefully he can start putting notches in his 'other professionals injured' bedpost soon, maybe he can quit it with the forward passes too, just watch videos of Souness and Hunter, turn himself into Hatchet Albie, scourge of the South 
    Souness was a brilliant footballer who also kicked people, like Roy Keane, he was not a "Vinny Jones" type. 
  • Leuth
    Leuth Posts: 23,314
    All the better then! Go get 'em Albie, studs-up and ravening 😉
  • MuttleyCAFC
    MuttleyCAFC Posts: 47,728
    Yes, both Souness and Keane were fantastic, quality players with a nasty edge. Vinny Jones was not a fantastic player but he was a better player than he probably wanted to be remembered as. Not slagging him off, he made the most of what talent he had and had a great career and his image didn't do him any harm during and after his playing days.
  • Dazzler21
    Dazzler21 Posts: 51,344
    edited December 2020
    Greenie said:
    Dazzler21 said:
    Greenie said:
    Having watched Bows post match interview on EFL Quest, I make him right, professional footballers should not be bottling tackles, Williams bottled out and that has no place in a Charlton team and he was right to hook him. 
    Yep right to give him a public bollocking as well,  maybe he’ll sort himself out, unlucky if Williams feels sorry for himself, bless him......! 
    A player that has been open about his mental health struggles...

    Nice...
    Blah blah blah...mental health....blah blah blah...
    He’s a professional footballer, he plies his trade in a public arena where he is paid handsomely in a results driven profession, where he will be physically and mentally picked apart, what about if he didn’t like heading the ball, does Bow say ‘ok my little cherub, don’t let that big heavy ball mess up your bald pate’.
    Great example... The thing that is currently being looked at to be potentially ruled out of the game as it's proven to have caused irreparable brain damage over the course of many players careers.

    They're both professional sportsmen. Bowyer didn't act professionally following Williams jumping out of a 50/50. The sub was fine, but his comments were not needed. A simple 'it was tactical' would have been fine.

    Williams didn't deserve to be publicly slated by his manager. Neither did Morgan for trying 'to smash the leather off the ball'.

    Being spoken about like a c*** and probably spoken to far worse simply isn't going to win over the dressing room.

    Proper dinosaur attitude.



    Bowyer's tactics lost us those 2 pts. The players didn't help, but they have to play how he says or risk getting subbed and slagged off in the media, by their own manager of all people!
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  • CL_Phantom
    CL_Phantom Posts: 5,513
    As usual criticism of Bowyer automatically means you want him sacked, it's becoming the same as those unbearable times when Powell would make a single 92nd minute sub and groaning about it meant. "You know nothing about football" "you ain't proper Charlton" and all that bollocks.

    Let's be honest, he's been on Williams' case quite a bit already this season, probably didn't want him back to begin with but got stuck with him.

    Said on the other thread I don't think he'll be here in January, still think it. 

    Oh and passing off mental health issues with a bla bla bla yeah, how dare Williams have personal issues, what a selfish cnut. Needs to go out a buy a range rover and man up eh?
  • PragueAddick
    PragueAddick Posts: 22,144
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Covered End said:
    Chunes said:
    WattsTheMatter said:
    Williams starts for Wales. His coming on changed the Playoff final. 
    We're going all the way back to the play-off final
    To be fair he did have a very good 30 mins, in a L1 game (play off final) 18 months ago.
    He was outstanding for the first few months in the championship and anyone saying other wise is either blind, being obtuse or deliberately argumentative to fit an agenda. 
    Thats right. He got injured against Derby reaching in to tackle ( I happened to be there for that one, and was incensed the ref gave a free kick against him) He had to walk slowly round the perimeter, and as he went everyone applauded him and the Covered End was singing his name. But possibly @Covered End :smile: ? Well, did you?

    in the play off final he was pushed forward with Aribo, an option Bow had because behind him were Cullen and Bielik, two young players who will have top level careers. While he drew fouls on the wing he often picked up the ball in the middle and took the ball out wide - and forward. Netflix made a doc about Sunderland but they found precious seconds and edits to show the impact of Williams on the game, and cleverly contrasting that of McGeady. 

    That said, his challenges on Saturday were lamentable. Bow was right to be pissed off. But I think he’d do well to be pissed off in private. And its a good idea to let JJ do the post match, if he’s pissed off. Then again, if I’d put up with what Bow has in the last 18 months, I’d be very pissed off. For that reason, he’s got my 100% support, just hope he’ll think about how he handles the post match bollocks, because really those inane “conferences” cause all the problems.

    So all in all its far from a clear call, and anyone looking for simple answers and one clear villain, is going to be disappointed, and the public search for him will just have us kicking shit out of each other on here. 
  • JamesSeed
    JamesSeed Posts: 17,380
    edited December 2020
    If you watch the extended highlights on VP you can see Gilbey pulling out of a tackle more blatantly than JW did. The only difference is that JW’s led to a chance and Gilbey’s didn’t, despite being in similar positions. 
    We need to start seeing an improvement in not just results, but also performance. 
    The next two weeks are crucial. 
  • stonemuse
    stonemuse Posts: 33,997
    PeanutsMolloy said:
    MuttleyCAFC said:
    We are a big side in a shit league. Bowyer is showing signs of losing it and acting in a way by singling out players for public criticism that will lose you the dressing room. This needs sorting out to increase our chances of getting promotion.

    I am not saying sack him, I am saying he needs to sort this out urgently or be sacked. We are in league One FFS! Do you actually watch and understand how shit this league actually is?
    We were 48 hours from administration less than 3 months ago and rescued with the transfer window about to close.
    We were damn lucky that Bow, Jacko and Steve G stuck with us through all the shit that went before.
    Get real FFS.
    Hear hear 
  • FishCostaFortune
    FishCostaFortune Posts: 10,773
    A less the subtle cryptic message from Williams? 
  • Chunes
    Chunes Posts: 17,347
    Oh dear
  • stonemuse
    stonemuse Posts: 33,997
    FishCostaFortune said:
    A less the subtle cryptic message from Williams? 
    Respect is earned ... by bottling out of tackles? 

    If the choice is JW or LB, goodbye Johnny. 
  • Dazzler21
    Dazzler21 Posts: 51,344
    stonemuse said:
    FishCostaFortune said:
    A less the subtle cryptic message from Williams? 
    Respect is earned ... by bottling out of tackles? 

    If the choice is JW or LB, goodbye Johnny. 
    Even if he alienates the whole squad with his behaviour? No man is bigger than the club. 

    If Bowyer is losing it, TS either needs to support him or replace him. 

    I hope LB can turn it around, but it seems he's alienating the squad one at a time. The fact we know a seasoned pro has come out and said he's losing it is very concerning.
  • stonemuse
    stonemuse Posts: 33,997
    Dazzler21 said:
    stonemuse said:
    FishCostaFortune said:
    A less the subtle cryptic message from Williams? 
    Respect is earned ... by bottling out of tackles? 

    If the choice is JW or LB, goodbye Johnny. 
    Even if he alienates the whole squad with his behaviour? No man is bigger than the club. 

    If Bowyer is losing it, TS either needs to support him or replace him. 

    I hope LB can turn it around, but it seems he's alienating the squad one at a time. The fact we know a seasoned pro has come out and said he's losing it is very concerning.
    I don’t believe LB is losing it, so he has my support 100%

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