Harsh on Williams today

Oggy Red

This whole situation has to be sorted - and soon.

It could derail our entire season.

Dazzler21

Redmidland said:

Firstly let me say I'm fully behind LB and I don't want to see him leave. However I have to say his comments after the game, especially re JW, were out of order. I've managed many people, from large groups of other managers to sales and customer service teams and not once have I called out a performance publicly (unless its been an exceptionally good performance and needs public recognition!)
Poor performances need discussing in private and, with the benefit of hindsight, I think LB would agree with that. If the tweet above is bona-fide (I have no doubt to believe that it is'nt), then it looks as though JW hasn't taken his public admonishing very well, and to be fair I don't blame him. 
More worrying is the rumour that LB is losing the dressing room and if that's the case his actions on Saturday evening will not have helped that.
LB is still a young manager and learning, he, like many, doesn't like losing and perhaps his emotion gets the better of him. However we must now move forward, for me I would like to see two things-:
LB apologies to JW (in private) and they sit and discuss the situation (I want JW to stay with CAFC as well)
TS looks to bring in a DoF (someone like Curbs) who can perhaps help to smooth LB's habit of publicly calling out players (JW was not the first one as we all know), and give a second pair of eyes to help LB become a very good manager both on and OFF the pitch.
For now we do need this episode to be 'defused' so we can get back to better performances from every player and back to winning ways.

Very good post. The conflict resolution bit is spot on. 

DONVANVLIET

I can see JW going in the January window. LB's outburst was symptomatic of a wider disappointment in JW. This wasn't just one game it is something that has been noted over several months. Personally what disappoints me most is JW's complete inability or unwillingness to track back and win the ball, the very thing Albie was being criticised for, although in his case the message has clearly struck home. One thing is for certain is that JW is not a Keith Jones and that, in my eyes, makes him a luxury at this level. So if he goes I won't be too upset.

agim

MuttleyCAFC said:

agim said:

balham red said:

I was rewatching Sunderland Til I Die yesterday. Notable that when he was speaking to the psychologist they discussed how he had only performed at his best when he had a manager who encouraged him, due to his deep fear of failure. He is clearly a fragile soul.

Management is all about understanding what levers to pull for each individual. Not every person responds well to being challenged, some need an arm around the shoulder.

I'm not sure if Bowyer has the motivational dexterity to work with Johnny's type, or indeed the tactical dexterity to work with creative more free spirited maverick types.

It will be interesting to see how his relationship with Innis develops over time.

The question is how long do you give a player? JW has been at the club 2.5 years now and how many true moments of magic have we seen? Surely this is a two way street? Bow might be saying it's now your time to step up mate and give me something back!

I thought my anger would subside, but it is still pretty strong. Firstly, Williams is above League One level by a considerable margin. For some reason, Bowyer has got it in for him. It has been evident for a while and it looks to me like he is trying to get him to leave. Just like he did with Fosu.

Where and when has Williams performed well above League 1? Lets be honest he's a mystery. 

ForeverAddickted

Oggy Red said:

This whole situation has to be sorted - and soon.

It could derail our entire season.

Thank god the January Transfer Window opens soon

cafc4life

Dazzler21 said:

stonemuse said:

FishCostaFortune said:

A less the subtle cryptic message from Williams? 

Respect is earned ... by bottling out of tackles? 

If the choice is JW or LB, goodbye Johnny. 

Even if he alienates the whole squad with his behaviour? No man is bigger than the club. 

If Bowyer is losing it, TS either needs to support him or replace him. 

I hope LB can turn it around, but it seems he's alienating the squad one at a time. The fact we know a seasoned pro has come out and said he's losing it is very concerning.

I must of missed that, but which seasoned pro said that @dazzler21

Leuth

Williams has had some horrid games this season, I can't lie, but he's just been showing a few more positive signs even amidst the wreckage of our last two games. He needs to be played the right way or not at all. Looks like Bowyer might be deciding on the latter, which is a shame. 

I reckon J BLOCK's inside guy is Chuks btw 

Dazzler21

cafc4life said:

Dazzler21 said:

stonemuse said:

FishCostaFortune said:

A less the subtle cryptic message from Williams? 

Respect is earned ... by bottling out of tackles? 

If the choice is JW or LB, goodbye Johnny. 

Even if he alienates the whole squad with his behaviour? No man is bigger than the club. 

If Bowyer is losing it, TS either needs to support him or replace him. 

I hope LB can turn it around, but it seems he's alienating the squad one at a time. The fact we know a seasoned pro has come out and said he's losing it is very concerning.

I must of missed that, but which seasoned pro said that @dazzler21

Sorry that sounded like I'd said they'd publicly said it. 

It was said directly to J Block. 

Dazzler21

Leuth said:

Williams has had some horrid games this season, I can't lie, but he's just been showing a few more positive signs even amidst the wreckage of our last two games. He needs to be played the right way or not at all. Looks like Bowyer might be deciding on the latter, which is a shame. 

I reckon J BLOCK's inside guy is Chuks btw 

 I'm thinking they've been here longer. No evidence, but a feeling I have given his description a couple of pages back. 

Chunes

.

cabbles

J BLOCK said:

FishCostaFortune said:

Dazzler21 said:

Has anyone called for his head?

All I have seen is people disappointed with his tactics and post match theatrics... and now the news he's losing the dressing room. 

Personally I have stated several times, I hope Bowyer turns it around. I'll understand if TS gets news from inside the club and makes a decision to replace Bowyer and at the same time, I'll understand if he chooses to back Bowyer and support him further. 

I can't talk for other social media platforms, but at least on here I think I have seen maybe 1 poster actually 'call for his head'.

J BLOCK I appreciate you cannot give t0o much further details into the conversation you had, but did you get any impression about how things may pan out in the long term, such as we will be able to turn it around?

All of a sudden we win another 6 games on the bounce and then all of the 'dressing room unrest' disappears. A winning camp is a happy camp.

It's hard to tell but this player was not pleased in the slightest and I got the impression he spoke for the whole squad. Questions are being asked internally. 

FWIW, I back Bowyer 100%. I think he'll be given the season at least.

Good insight, thanks.  It’s sad really, but this should be the stability and platform Bowyer should thrive in, given how well he managed us in the shit show since he took over.  I think you can draw parallels with Powell.  I felt by the time Powell got sacked, he was drained.  He, like Bowyer had to manage a club under threat of administration (albeit Bowyer’s under more erratic circumstances).  Obviously Dutchatelet is nothing like TS, and I don’t see TS pushing the sack button in the way Dutchatelet did with Powell, but perhaps Bowyer is drained.  Perhaps the the tumultuous last year is beginning to catch up with him, and can you blame him.  He’s human.  We have seen such a miracle under Bowyer getting us up, but he’s only human.  These things do take there toll.  

I can’t speculate as to why this is happening now, as it seemed that throughout last year, Bowyer managed to get us playing with a spirit of togetherness and players wanted to play under him it seemed.  I just don’t know, but I, like a lot of others have been worried about potential unrest for a good week or so now.  

Could be a real test of TS as to what he does 

Oggy Red

cabbles said:

J BLOCK said:

FishCostaFortune said:

Dazzler21 said:

Has anyone called for his head?

All I have seen is people disappointed with his tactics and post match theatrics... and now the news he's losing the dressing room. 

Personally I have stated several times, I hope Bowyer turns it around. I'll understand if TS gets news from inside the club and makes a decision to replace Bowyer and at the same time, I'll understand if he chooses to back Bowyer and support him further. 

I can't talk for other social media platforms, but at least on here I think I have seen maybe 1 poster actually 'call for his head'.

J BLOCK I appreciate you cannot give t0o much further details into the conversation you had, but did you get any impression about how things may pan out in the long term, such as we will be able to turn it around?

All of a sudden we win another 6 games on the bounce and then all of the 'dressing room unrest' disappears. A winning camp is a happy camp.

It's hard to tell but this player was not pleased in the slightest and I got the impression he spoke for the whole squad. Questions are being asked internally. 

FWIW, I back Bowyer 100%. I think he'll be given the season at least.

Good insight, thanks.  It’s sad really, but this should be the stability and platform Bowyer should thrive in, given how well he managed us in the shit show since he took over.  I think you can draw parallels with Powell.  I felt by the time Powell got sacked, he was drained.  He, like Bowyer had to manage a club under threat of administration (albeit Bowyer’s under more erratic circumstances).  Obviously Dutchatelet is nothing like TS, and I don’t see TS pushing the sack button in the way Dutchatelet did with Powell, but perhaps Bowyer is drained.  Perhaps the the tumultuous last year is beginning to catch up with him, and can you blame him.  He’s human.  We have seen such a miracle under Bowyer getting us up, but he’s only human.  These things do take there toll.  

I touched on this point on this thread yesterday - and that's what I meant by saying, "Bowyer needs to go fishing".

The bloke needs a break, a week's holiday to recharge the old batteries.
Jacko can run the ship for a week.

cafcfan1990

clb74 said:

cafcfan1990 said:

PeanutsMolloy said:

MuttleyCAFC said:

We are a big side in a shit league. Bowyer is showing signs of losing it and acting in a way by singling out players for public criticism that will lose you the dressing room. This needs sorting out to increase our chances of getting promotion.

I am not saying sack him, I am saying he needs to sort this out urgently or be sacked. We are in league One FFS! Do you actually watch and understand how shit this league actually is?

We were 48 hours from administration less than 3 months ago and rescued with the transfer window about to close.
We were damn lucky that Bow, Jacko and Steve G stuck with us through all the shit that went before.
Get real FFS.

I absolutely agree with this post. However, the question is when do you look past the fact Bowyer stayed loyal. 

For clarity, im definitely not in the get rid of Bowyer camp. I 100% agree he’s earnt that extra bit of loyalty. But I keep seeing two points mentioned, firstly that we can’t sack him because he stuck by us, and secondly that we should just be grateful we have a club. 

I agree with both of those but when does that end. We get relegated to the national league under Bowyer but we should just be grateful we have a club? It’s not going to be a nice day but there could well come a point where we have to forget the past and concentrate on the present and future. 

So how long would you give Bowyer 1990?

if results and performances continue as they have had for the last month or so, then probably until around mid February. That would be the case even if we have a few decent wins in the middle. He deserves to strengthen a little bit in January and deserves the chance to improve. I don't agree he should necessarily be given the whole season. 

KBslittlesis

Respect is earned.
Quite right too.

Manager v Player, only one winner here.

NO FECKING ONE!

@T@Tracey get em both into a room & bang their bleeding heads together ffs!

Covered End

PragueAddick said:

Cafc43v3r said:

Covered End said:

Chunes said:

WattsTheMatter said:

Williams starts for Wales. His coming on changed the Playoff final. 

We're going all the way back to the play-off final

To be fair he did have a very good 30 mins, in a L1 game (play off final) 18 months ago.

He was outstanding for the first few months in the championship and anyone saying other wise is either blind, being obtuse or deliberately argumentative to fit an agenda. 

Thats right. He got injured against Derby reaching in to tackle ( I happened to be there for that one, and was incensed the ref gave a free kick against him) He had to walk slowly round the perimeter, and as he went everyone applauded him and the Covered End was singing his name. But possibly @Covered End ? Well, did you? 

Probably, I had high hopes when he joined us.

Mendonca In Asdas

Didn’t know it was Lees birthday coming up in January, must get him a card!

MuttleyCAFC

I agree with what you say Redmidland apart from the bit about Bowyer apologising privately. If he embarrassed the player publicly, he should apologise publicly.

Whatever you think about Williams, and we have understandable divisions as to his ability, you do not do what Bowyer did and humiliate the player. The same for Bogle against Burton. This doesn't just affect the players involved but those team mates watching it.  

paulie8290

Mendonca In Asdas said:

If that is a genuine whatever from JW then its bang out of order, prove Lee wrong on the pitch ( when you can get on it) its undermining your manager.

Its also bang out of order to substitute a player after less than 25 minutes and make some rubbish excuse that it was because he pulled out of a tackle.

I have seen sooooo many other players pull out of tackles this season and not be substituted.

So if Lee is treating Jonny differently then why not let it be known how you are feeling about it.



Put it in non football terms, if you worked in an office and came in 10 minutes late and your boss shouted at you accross the room for everyone to hear about you being late, then someone else also came in 10 minutes late and the same boss didn't say a word to them, you would be pissed off.

Well this is the footballing version of that, Maddison pulled out of 3 or 4 challenges during his 45 minutes against MK Dons but he wasn't taken off

MuttleyCAFC

We are not in the dressing room, but because this behaviour happened openly we know what happened and it is not a big leap to appreciate how this hot headed behaviour is terrible for morale. 

I defended Bowyer to a lot of mates who questioned how he could be a manager. I said he had changed. And I thought he had. I appreciate the pressures on him have been immense and maybe it is understandable. But he needs to take a step back and reset if he can and that includes the necessary apologies to a few players and the squad overall. 

DamoNorthStand

First thing that comes to mind for me is that Thomas is gonna be watching on at this and not liking it one bit.

9 times out of 10 when a boss loses the team around him in my experience, the boss goes. I guess it will come down to whether or not he has 'lost the dressing room' as has been mooted on here.

Not what I want to happen here at all. But it wouldnt surprise me if this blew up and Thomas nipped it in the bud by bringing his own man in.

Redmidland

MuttleyCAFC said:

I agree with what you say Redmidland apart from the bit about Bowyer apologising privately. If he embarrassed the player publicly, he should apologise publicly.

Whatever you think about Williams, and we have understandable divisions as to his ability, you do not do what Bowyer did and humiliate the player. The same for Bogle against Burton. This doesn't just affect the players involved but those team mates watching it.  

Hi @MuttleyCAFC, yes I understand what you're saying, and I gave it a lot of thought before I posted my original comments. I did think originally that he should publicly apologise, but then I thought that this needs to be resolved as quickly as possible. If LB apologies privately he will see JW's reaction instantaneously and be able to gauge if it has 'defused' the situation. He (LB) can then , if he wishes, make a comment in public along the lines of "We have sorted out our differences and we are all aiming to work together to get promotion" or JW could make a public comment saying something along the same lines. I think to ask LB to publicly apologise is something he may not wish to do and an apology, however it comes, needs to happen if we want this over and done with. 

Cafc43v3r

If JW is posting that on his social media, if a 1st team player is saying that to a fan, it needs sorting and drawing a line under now. 

Get Pearce, Pratley, Watson, Bowyer and Jackson in a room and talk about it.  Lock them in if you have to. 

This has all the hall marks of a "Jose 3rd season".  In fact the resemblances are many. 

Rothko

Two things, I like Johnny Williams as a player, but he's also someone who I don't think has every done it at a consistent level, you get excited by the flashes, but other then Wembley, I can't think of lots of games he's truly been the game-changer. 

As for Bow, I hope he learns from this as well about how you handle these situations. I do sometimes fear he's learned a bad habit from David O'Leary at Leeds, which was when they won it was very much 'us' and when they lost it was 'them'. Win as a team, lose as a team. 

MuttleyCAFC

Cafc43v3r said:

If JW is posting that on his social media, if a 1st team player is saying that to a fan, it needs sorting and drawing a line under now. 

Get Pearce, Pratley, Watson, Bowyer and Jackson in a room and talk about it.  Lock them in if you have to. 

This has all the hall marks of a "Jose 3rd season".  In fact the resemblances are many. 

Just imagine how this may play out with clubs loaning us players too. We can all stick our heads in the sand, but this requires managing from Sandgaard if it threatens the short term success of the club.

DagenhamAddick

I simply don't think Lee is the right person for Thomas S and the brand he wishes to build. There can be no room for sentiment and this isn't exclusive to Bowyer it goes for the whole 1st team coaching staff. Bowyer neither has the intellect or the gravitas for this journey. For me he has to find a way to get both Williams and Maddison into the same team. And I simply don't think he has the mental tools to achieve this at present.

Addick Addict

I originally raised the issue about LB publicly calling out players when he blamed Bonne for missing a chance. If anything, that was a less serious offence because at least Bonne was trying to score whereas Williams made no attempt to make the tackle.

I see no gain whatsoever in holding a player to account in public and certainly not straight after the game. It is divisive doing so because unless, as a Manager, you are going to do it on every occasion that a player makes a mistake you are going to lead yourself open to the accusation of favouritism. By way of an example, I would question why he has made no mention of Gunter and his three mistakes that have cost us points recently?

LB might understand the game but I'm not sure he has acquired the man management skills. You need both to get the best out of players.

MuttleyCAFC

I wouldn't say that. The fresh Bowyer showed he could manage players well. Bielik commented what a great dressing room we had at Wembley. Something has happened to Bowyer. The clues have been there for a while, but he is not the same manager.

J BLOCK

I think it's unprofessional and childish to post what JW did. 

iaitch

DamoNorthStand said:

First thing that comes to mind for me is that Thomas is gonna be watching on at this and not liking it one bit.

9 times out of 10 when a boss loses the team around him in my experience, the boss goes. I guess it will come down to whether or not he has 'lost the dressing room' as has been mooted on here.

Not what I want to happen here at all. But it wouldnt surprise me if this blew up and Thomas nipped it in the bud by bringing his own man in.

What bit is Thomas not going to be liking?

LB publicly commenting on a player or JW not doing his job? 

southamptonaddick

J BLOCK said:

I think it's unprofessional and childish to post what JW did. 

Is it unprofessional and childish to humiliate a player for one error?