Just to say... Williams won a challenge then was off balance for the second, sure he did step out of it but he was so off balance and with his injury history... I can't believe he's been hauled off for that...
He proper bottled that. He would have got their first too. No excuses for a professional to do that.
If all our players did that every time they needed to make a challenge we would probably lose about 50-0.
No, actually if we left Williams on we would have won the game
If from the moment Williams was subbed Charlton players didn't put in another tackle I assure you we would have let in a goal roughly every 60 seconds.
Do you recall that Sheff U v Arsenal game when the players stood aside and allowed a goal to be walked in? We would be doing that upwards of 50 times a game.
He didn’t even bottle the challenge! He lost a 50/50, we didn’t even concede from it and Williams isn’t even a tough tackling midfielder
The fact that so many people are disagreeing over that one little video clip clearly demonstrates that it's not a clear cut decision, and face it in football what is? The perception of a manager standing on the touch line is likely do be very different to that of a player running with his head down trying to regain his balance. Given that it was a one off event, it would surely have been better to make it a discussion point for after the match than to publicly stoke up animosity within the team.
I can understand fans saying Bowyer over reacted and should have handled the matter in private (he probably should). But I can't understand so many of our fans wanting our players not to make a tackle and just wave through the opposition. Mind you those fans won't be saying that on Saturday if we didn't make one tackle against AFC and lose at home 0-50.
Anyway, if you feel players shouldn't be tackling the opposition then there's not a lot else to discuss.
Nobody is saying they don't want our players making tackles... Don't be ridiculous.
Just to say... Williams won a challenge then was off balance for the second, sure he did step out of it but he was so off balance and with his injury history... I can't believe he's been hauled off for that...
He proper bottled that. He would have got their first too. No excuses for a professional to do that.
If all our players did that every time they needed to make a challenge we would probably lose about 50-0.
No, actually if we left Williams on we would have won the game
If from the moment Williams was subbed Charlton players didn't put in another tackle I assure you we would have let in a goal roughly every 60 seconds.
Do you recall that Sheff U v Arsenal game when the players stood aside and allowed a goal to be walked in? We would be doing that upwards of 50 times a game.
He didn’t even bottle the challenge! He lost a 50/50, we didn’t even concede from it and Williams isn’t even a tough tackling midfielder
Sorry my friend are we talking about the same incident? I'm talking about the video above where Williams jumps over the ball and the players foot to avoid making a tackle. If you duck out of a challenge that cannot be described as losing a 50/50.
Did he bottle it? If he had followed through on that tackle he could have easily injured the other player and may have been sent off. He has a split second to make that decision. It looks bad as he pulled out of the tackle it may have been a lot worse for the oppo, him and the team if he didn't. It's all about opinions but I don't think that warranted being dragged off and singled out in the post match interview.
Oh come on. It was a 50v50 tackle that he shirked, you can't worry about if you will injure them.
I don't think it was a 50v50. There player got to the ball first so 70v30. These days it is so easy for players to get sent off for the most innocuous tackles that are deemed reckless and then people would be moaning why he made that challenge when he didn't need to.
Because Williams pulled out, Williams would have got there first.
If you’re gonna sub someone off for something as little as the Williams challenge then forget talk of 5 subs, Bowyer would make 20 subs a game. Gunter let the ball bounce for the goal, did he bottle it too? Have some consistency Mr Bowyer
I can understand fans saying Bowyer over reacted and should have handled the matter in private (he probably should). But I can't understand so many of our fans wanting our players not to make a tackle and just wave through the opposition. Mind you those fans won't be saying that on Saturday if we didn't make one tackle against AFC and lose at home 0-50.
Anyway, if you feel players shouldn't be tackling the opposition then there's not a lot else to discuss.
If you’re gonna sub someone off for something as little as the Williams challenge then forget talk of 5 subs, Bowyer would make 20 subs a game. Gunter let the ball bounce for the goal, did he bottle it too? Have some consistency Mr Bowyer
No, you tackle an opposition player (or should), you don't tackle a bouncing ball.
Just to say... Williams won a challenge then was off balance for the second, sure he did step out of it but he was so off balance and with his injury history... I can't believe he's been hauled off for that...
He proper bottled that. He would have got their first too. No excuses for a professional to do that.
If all our players did that every time they needed to make a challenge we would probably lose about 50-0.
No, actually if we left Williams on we would have won the game
If from the moment Williams was subbed Charlton players didn't put in another tackle I assure you we would have let in a goal roughly every 60 seconds.
Do you recall that Sheff U v Arsenal game when the players stood aside and allowed a goal to be walked in? We would be doing that upwards of 50 times a game.
He didn’t even bottle the challenge! He lost a 50/50, we didn’t even concede from it and Williams isn’t even a tough tackling midfielder
Sorry my friend are we talking about the same incident? I'm talking about the video above where Williams jumps over the ball and the players foot to avoid making a tackle. If you duck out of a challenge that cannot be described as losing a 50/50.
Which incident are you referring to?
I see an off balanced Jonny Williams lose a 50/50 having just won a 50/50.
If you’re gonna sub someone off for something as little as the Williams challenge then forget talk of 5 subs, Bowyer would make 20 subs a game. Gunter let the ball bounce for the goal, did he bottle it too? Have some consistency Mr Bowyer
No, you tackle an opposition player (or should), you don't tackle a bouncing ball.
You seem to think if a player doesn’t win a tackle they ‘bottled it’. Old fashioned way of thinking and personally i don’t agree with it.
Just to say... Williams won a challenge then was off balance for the second, sure he did step out of it but he was so off balance and with his injury history... I can't believe he's been hauled off for that...
He proper bottled that. He would have got their first too. No excuses for a professional to do that.
If all our players did that every time they needed to make a challenge we would probably lose about 50-0.
No, actually if we left Williams on we would have won the game
If from the moment Williams was subbed Charlton players didn't put in another tackle I assure you we would have let in a goal roughly every 60 seconds.
Do you recall that Sheff U v Arsenal game when the players stood aside and allowed a goal to be walked in? We would be doing that upwards of 50 times a game.
He didn’t even bottle the challenge! He lost a 50/50, we didn’t even concede from it and Williams isn’t even a tough tackling midfielder
Sorry my friend are we talking about the same incident? I'm talking about the video above where Williams jumps over the ball and the players foot to avoid making a tackle. If you duck out of a challenge that cannot be described as losing a 50/50.
Which incident are you referring to?
I see an off balanced Jonny Williams lose a 50/50 having just won a 50/50.
Ok, I suppose the fact that he did not make a tackle, could possibly be described as losing a tackle, although I think that's a bit cheeky.
Did he bottle it? If he had followed through on that tackle he could have easily injured the other player and may have been sent off. He has a split second to make that decision. It looks bad as he pulled out of the tackle it may have been a lot worse for the oppo, him and the team if he didn't. It's all about opinions but I don't think that warranted being dragged off and singled out in the post match interview.
Oh come on. It was a 50v50 tackle that he shirked, you can't worry about if you will injure them.
I don't think it was a 50v50. There player got to the ball first so 70v30. These days it is so easy for players to get sent off for the most innocuous tackles that are deemed reckless and then people would be moaning why he made that challenge when he didn't need to.
Because Williams pulled out, Williams would have got there first.
Williams should have made the challenge it was an error on his behalf and I suspect driven by a career ravaged by injury.
Bowyer should not have hooked him or bawled him out in the post match interview for one mistake.
More than just Williams pulled out of a tackle and the entire team was incapable of passing the ball or moving into space.
There are so many things that feel right at the moment at the club it would be a huge missed opportunity if we fudge this season up due to squabbling amongst players / manager. Need any issues there resolved asap so we can move on properly.
Did he bottle it? If he had followed through on that tackle he could have easily injured the other player and may have been sent off. He has a split second to make that decision. It looks bad as he pulled out of the tackle it may have been a lot worse for the oppo, him and the team if he didn't. It's all about opinions but I don't think that warranted being dragged off and singled out in the post match interview.
Oh come on. It was a 50v50 tackle that he shirked, you can't worry about if you will injure them.
I don't think it was a 50v50. There player got to the ball first so 70v30. These days it is so easy for players to get sent off for the most innocuous tackles that are deemed reckless and then people would be moaning why he made that challenge when he didn't need to.
Because Williams pulled out, Williams would have got there first.
If you’re gonna sub someone off for something as little as the Williams challenge then forget talk of 5 subs, Bowyer would make 20 subs a game. Gunter let the ball bounce for the goal, did he bottle it too? Have some consistency Mr Bowyer
No, you tackle an opposition player (or should), you don't tackle a bouncing ball.
You seem to think if a player doesn’t win a tackle they ‘bottled it’. Old fashioned way of thinking and personally i don’t agree with it.
He doesn’t lose the tackle, he fails to make it.
I have a lot of respect for Bows and I don’t think he was annoyed at Williams for just pulling out of a tackle. But who knows.
I also respect Bows for answering the questions that were put to him. I think most of us wanted to know why he took him off.
Bows is like an open book. No pretense, no bullshit. We need more managers like him that tell you how it is, and less of the managers that spout drivel after a game. I was fuming after that game. I’m glad he was as well.
If Williams thinks he was wrong, he should go and talk to him.
If you’re gonna sub someone off for something as little as the Williams challenge then forget talk of 5 subs, Bowyer would make 20 subs a game. Gunter let the ball bounce for the goal, did he bottle it too? Have some consistency Mr Bowyer
No, you tackle an opposition player (or should), you don't tackle a bouncing ball.
You seem to think if a player doesn’t win a tackle they ‘bottled it’. Old fashioned way of thinking and personally i don’t agree with it.
He doesn’t lose the tackle, he fails to make it.
I have a lot of respect for Bows and I don’t think he was annoyed at Williams for just pulling out of a tackle. But who knows.
I also respect Bows for answering the questions that were put to him. I think most of us wanted to know why he took him off.
Bows is like an open book. No pretense, no bullshit.We need more managers like him that tell you how it is, and less of the managers that spout drivel after a game. I was fuming after that game. I’m glad he was as well.
If Williams thinks he was wrong, he should go and talk to him.
I would suspect a lot of managers are like that, but most of them do it behind closed doors. I have no problem with my manager for bollocking me for a mistake, I would have one if she did that in the middle of our office. I would hope players feel the same. I disagreed with one poster who said Williams is an "arm round the shoulder sort of guy", that creates it's own issue because you shouldn't do that for him but not others. But there is middle ground in that, I think for me, and a lot of others, Bowyer failed to find that middle ground. It was obviously heat of the minute and frustration at chucking away two points, but ultimately it was not Williams' challenge (or lack of) which cost us the two points anyway.
Great player, looks a class above everyone else at times. No doubt that is a blatant pull out of a 50/50, no matter what anyone says it is quite obvious. He has injury history so who can blame him? Desperately want him to come good but doesn't offer enough in the final third for a creative attacking midfielder (is that a tactical issue?).
First time I saw it, I thought Williams shirked it. That was my first impression.
Watching it over and over, there was no way Williams off balance from the previous challenge, could have won that ball cleanly. Look at the way the Shrewsbury player gets to the ball with his body side on, body weight on the tackling foot - that's a brick wall for Williams to run into, his face straight into the player's on-coming shoulder.
The Shrews player has solid momentum, Williams was off balance. That could have been a nasty incident.
If you’re gonna sub someone off for something as little as the Williams challenge then forget talk of 5 subs, Bowyer would make 20 subs a game. Gunter let the ball bounce for the goal, did he bottle it too? Have some consistency Mr Bowyer
No, you tackle an opposition player (or should), you don't tackle a bouncing ball.
You seem to think if a player doesn’t win a tackle they ‘bottled it’. Old fashioned way of thinking and personally i don’t agree with it.
He doesn’t lose the tackle, he fails to make it.
I have a lot of respect for Bows and I don’t think he was annoyed at Williams for just pulling out of a tackle. But who knows.
I also respect Bows for answering the questions that were put to him. I think most of us wanted to know why he took him off.
Bows is like an open book. No pretense, no bullshit.We need more managers like him that tell you how it is, and less of the managers that spout drivel after a game. I was fuming after that game. I’m glad he was as well.
If Williams thinks he was wrong, he should go and talk to him.
I would suspect a lot of managers are like that, but most of them do it behind closed doors. I have no problem with my manager for bollocking me for a mistake, I would have one if she did that in the middle of our office. I would hope players feel the same. I disagreed with one poster who said Williams is an "arm round the shoulder sort of guy", that creates it's own issue because you shouldn't do that for him but not others. But there is middle ground in that, I think for me, and a lot of others, Bowyer failed to find that middle ground. It was obviously heat of the minute and frustration at chucking away two points, but ultimately it was not Williams' challenge (or lack of) which cost us the two points anyway.
I do not consider that a bollocking to be honest, and I would certainly not suggest we lost as a result of that incident. He wasn’t shouting and waiving his hands about. It was a straight answer to a direct question.
Have a look at those criticising Bowyer for awful tactics etc. Would that be worse if he had not given a truthful answer? Even the commentators were saying that tactility it would have been better to take off someone else and leave fresh legs on. Let’s see if we get a response from the player that we deserve.
The criticism that Bows is getting is way over the top for me.
The fact that so many people are disagreeing over that one little video clip clearly demonstrates that it's not a clear cut decision, and face it in football what is? The perception of a manager standing on the touch line is likely do be very different to that of a player running with his head down trying to regain his balance. Given that it was a one off event, it would surely have been better to make it a discussion point for after the match than to publicly stoke up animosity within the team.
Agree with this. And it’s also quite telling the split reaction re: Bowyer’s reaction and comments. Some agree and some disagree. I’m in the same camp as you Stig, I can’t quite get my head around Bowyer’s actions and subsequent comments.
I think Saturday will give us a good insight as to how this is going to play out moving forward.
The one thing I do get annoyed about, is as others have pointed out, how come Pratley doesn’t get singled out for constantly passing sideways over a sustained basis. This is just as damaging for the team as pulling out of challenges. It’s a bit double standards for me
The fact that so many people are disagreeing over that one little video clip clearly demonstrates that it's not a clear cut decision, and face it in football what is? The perception of a manager standing on the touch line is likely do be very different to that of a player running with his head down trying to regain his balance. Given that it was a one off event, it would surely have been better to make it a discussion point for after the match than to publicly stoke up animosity within the team.
Agree with this. And it’s also quite telling the split reaction re: Bowyer’s reaction and comments. Some agree and some disagree. I’m in the same camp as you Stig, I can’t quite get my head around Bowyer’s actions and subsequent comments.
I think Saturday will give us a good insight as to how this is going to play out moving forward.
The one thing I do get annoyed about, is as others have pointed out, how come Pratley doesn’t get singled out for constantly passing sideways over a sustained basis. This is just as damaging for the team as pulling out of challenges. It’s a bit double standards for me
Don’t you think the lack of movement in front of him is more of an issue?
Comments
I'm talking about the video above where Williams jumps over the ball and the players foot to avoid making a tackle. If you duck out of a challenge that cannot be described as losing a 50/50.
Which incident are you referring to?
Have some consistency Mr Bowyer
Bowyer should not have hooked him or bawled him out in the post match interview for one mistake.
More than just Williams pulled out of a tackle and the entire team was incapable of passing the ball or moving into space.
There are so many things that feel right at the moment at the club it would be a huge missed opportunity if we fudge this season up due to squabbling amongst players / manager. Need any issues there resolved asap so we can move on properly.
I have a lot of respect for Bows and I don’t think he was annoyed at Williams for just pulling out of a tackle. But who knows.
Bows is like an open book. No pretense, no bullshit. We need more managers like him that tell you how it is, and less of the managers that spout drivel after a game. I was fuming after that game. I’m glad he was as well.
If Williams thinks he was wrong, he should go and talk to him.
Watching it over and over, there was no way Williams off balance from the previous challenge, could have won that ball cleanly.
Look at the way the Shrewsbury player gets to the ball with his body side on, body weight on the tackling foot - that's a brick wall for Williams to run into, his face straight into the player's on-coming shoulder.
The Shrews player has solid momentum, Williams was off balance.
That could have been a nasty incident.
The criticism that Bows is getting is way over the top for me.
I think Saturday will give us a good insight as to how this is going to play out moving forward.