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How good is our squad comparatively in League one?
RodneyCharltonTrotta
Posts: 14,995
Seen a lot of comments about us having one of the best squads in the league and that we should expect promotion etc with our set of players but are they really that much better than the other 23 squads we're competing against?
It is a genuine question as I will hold my hands up and say my knowledge of players is limited to Charlton's players and a few big names in the premier league but generally I have not got a clue who is who outside that and how good they are.
Whenever we sign someone or are in for someone 9 out of 10 times I'll have no clue who they are so I am genuinely interested as to where we sit in terms of our squad compared to others in our league.
I'm aware of good players like Marquis, Ched Evans at other clubs and there always seems to be some stand out oppos in many teams we've faced so how valid is the assertion that the set of players we have is one of the best in the division?
Is it valid or just confirmation bias/ assumption because of familiarity with our lot and less familiarity with others?
It is a genuine question as I will hold my hands up and say my knowledge of players is limited to Charlton's players and a few big names in the premier league but generally I have not got a clue who is who outside that and how good they are.
Whenever we sign someone or are in for someone 9 out of 10 times I'll have no clue who they are so I am genuinely interested as to where we sit in terms of our squad compared to others in our league.
I'm aware of good players like Marquis, Ched Evans at other clubs and there always seems to be some stand out oppos in many teams we've faced so how valid is the assertion that the set of players we have is one of the best in the division?
Is it valid or just confirmation bias/ assumption because of familiarity with our lot and less familiarity with others?
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Comments
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I have always said Lee Bowyer was exceptionally lucky in the standard of players he was able to bring in post Thomas arriving.
Other managers are not so fortunate hence why he has to get us up this year IMO.
Look at the other teams and their signings. Doncaster bought in Bogle FFS...
Lets look at Bowyers signings from Thomas coming in:
1) Watson - Forest fans were gutted to lose him and with his pedigree should be more than enough for league one.
2) Gunter - most capped welsh player ever
3) Famewo - top defender at this level
4) Inniss - ditto
5) Shinnie - played key role just 2 years back in Luton’s promotion
6) Gilbey - MK DONS player of the year
7) Maddison - one of the most consistent league one players in recent years towards the top of the division
8) Matthews - rated by us in the championship last year.9) Maatsen / Miller - solid youngsters from top premier league set ups
10) Washington - significant experience at a higher level and should easily be able to get 15 goals with these players around him.
Add the likes of Amos, Williams, JFC, Purrington (our left back last time we went up)
Looking at that, how can anyone think the performance this year is reasonable??17 -
Something isn't right, these players SHOULD be good enough to be cruising towards autos/3rd but instead we're limping towards mid table.
Believe we have the right individuals, just need to fix the mood in camp.3 -
Just a bunch of names on a team sheet, when you watch the EFL show on Quest there are plenty of league one players putting our lot to shame.
Look at the players we had when we were promoted, Phillips, Beilik, Aribo, Cullen, Taylor etc and we scraped up via the play offs, we did not cruise to the title.
The squad we have now are nowhere near as good so no surprises we are where we are.4 -
What we need is some kind of points based system, where all the squads get ranked against each other and we can then lay it out in table form in order to establish how good each squad is.11
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Bows team selection is bizarre, if he wasn't our manager you'd think he was on a wind up.Dazzler21 said:Something isn't right, these players SHOULD be good enough to be cruising towards autos/3rd but instead we're limping towards mid table.
Believe we have the right individuals, just need to fix the mood in camp.
His inability to select a consistent xi has been part of our downfall.
L1 is absolute garbage compared to what it was 18 months ago.
I'm tired of watching Bows defensive xi's
I'm bored of listening to Bows bs excuses
I'm fed up3 -
There's 2 separate issues, the quality of the individual players in the squad, and the balance of the squad.
No point having 5 genius No 10s, but terrible goalkeepers. Or having a squad with too many 30 somethings who struggle with the intensity, or a squad of teenagers who lack experience. Or having an Andy Carroll style number 9 in a side playing tiki-taka, or a David Silva style midfielder in a hoofball side.
And then of course you need a squad that fits the tactics that the manager likes, who all know their positions etc
Lincoln have on paper worse players than us BUT almost certainly a better balanced squad, and one who know how their manager wants them to play...4 -
Then you can add:DamoNorthStand said:I have always said Lee Bowyer was exceptionally lucky in the standard of players he was able to bring in post Thomas arriving.
Other managers are not so fortunate hence why he has to get us up this year IMO.
Look at the other teams and their signings. Doncaster bought in Bogle FFS...
Lets look at Bowyers signings from Thomas coming in:
1) Watson - Forest fans were gutted to lose him and with his pedigree should be more than enough for league one.
2) Gunter - most capped welsh player ever
3) Famewo - top defender at this level
4) Inniss - ditto
5) Shinnie - played key role just 2 years back in Luton’s promotion
6) Gilbey - MK DONS player of the year
7) Maddison - one of the most consistent league one players in recent years towards the top of the division
8) Matthews - rated by us in the championship last year.9) Maatsen / Miller - solid youngsters from top premier league set ups
10) Washington - significant experience at a higher level and should easily be able to get 15 goals with these players around him.
Add the likes of Amos, Williams, JFC, Purrington (our left back last time we went up)
Looking at that, how can anyone think the performance this year is reasonable??
Stockley - experience in the league above
Smith - one of Swindon's best players this season
DJ - probably Swindon's best player this season (going by their fans opinion not mine)
Schwartz - top scorer in the Danish top flight last season
It's undeniable we have a good squad for this level and are drastically underperforming.3 -
DamoNorthStand said:I have always said Lee Bowyer was exceptionally lucky in the standard of players he was able to bring in post Thomas arriving.
Look at the other teams and their signings. Doncaster bought in Bogle FFS...
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Let's take Portsmouth.
I think Whatmough, Naylor, Marquis, Myers-Harness and Curtis would all walk into our team.
That's an impressive spine of players who will play 30+ games this season. Do we have a spine that compares to that? And could they play 30+ games (even if LB didn't rotate)? And Portsmouth are not even in the top 2.
We look back at our play-off winning squad and think - wow. What a team. But back then, LB was seen as overperforming. I remember even Lyle Taylor himself asking Lee "How the f*** have you got us promoted?"
Perhaps it was because we were under Roland and our general expectations of recruitment and the team's fortunes were so rock bottom, that any accomplishment seemed grand. But now things are very different and so is what we expect.
Are we looking at this group of players through a different lens and seeing too much? It must be possible, because despite having some talented individual players, we must say there is no core spine to this team.1 -
This squad is more than good enough for a top 2 finish. It’s the way it is being managed that is the problem.3
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As in referring to the general environment / playground clubs around can operate in being apparent in the transfer window just gone.Callumcafc said:DamoNorthStand said:I have always said Lee Bowyer was exceptionally lucky in the standard of players he was able to bring in post Thomas arriving.
Look at the other teams and their signings. Doncaster bought in Bogle FFS...
Lee had the ability with his owner to Chuck out a failed experiment to a better team than us who are willing to take him.
But poor old hard done by LB has to make do with Jayden Stockley from the Championship, Ronnie Schwartz who has one of the best pedigrees in the Danish top flight, and two of Swindon’s best players at the click of a finger.
The point isn’t hard to understand. I will say it again - if Lee Bowyer was called Bob Smith with no previous emotional connection to Charlton then he wouldn’t be getting as easy ride as he is1 -
If it doesn't come as an infographic I ain't looking.MrOneLung said:What we need is some kind of points based system, where all the squads get ranked against each other and we can then lay it out in table form in order to establish how good each squad is.3 -
First thing I’ll say we all know Bowyer is underachieving on this current bad run. The difference in giving him time or sacking him is down to expectations. For me it’s becoming clearer this is a play-off squad at best, though that could change if the new signings settle in and out CBs returning make a difference.
Those thinking this is one of the best squads in the league are making the mistake of judging players based on reputation or where they came from. I’ll call it the “Matt Holland effect” - we saw him as a solid Prem player for years and yet in the Championship after we got relegated he never stood out. He was declining as a player and the change in expectations from us battling in relegation to expecting to dominate games and win promotion exposed more of his weaknesses. He could no longer get box to box, had never been a creative passer or proper ball winner. Quicker, more energetic and technical midfielders were controlling the midfield against us.
Washington is a great example. Play him every game he’ll do a decent job and score 10 or so goals. He works hard but he doesn’t have the quality to score 20+, neither does he have something about his game that makes that difference. While not slow, weak or technically poor neither does his pace, strength or skill scare defenders at this level. He’s back in this league because he wasn’t good enough for the step up. And yet he has this reputation as a former Championship player, on threads like this he’s listed as one of those who should do well and that clubs like Accrington and Lincoln would love to sign. We know Lincoln’s squad is young and looking up Accrington’s forwards most of them are young too. Without knowing anything about them other than those clubs are doing well I wouldn’t be surprised if at least one or two of their strikers will be doing more than Washington in a year or two.
JFC, Gunter, Matthews, Oshilaja, Watson, Pratley etc, we have plenty more examples of players like this. All either too old to significantly improve and in some cases on the decline where the Matt Holland effect has kicked in.
A promotion winning squad is one that you look at and feel would compete in the league above with a handful of good additions. This squad has too many players I wouldn’t feel confident if they were playing regularly in the Championship.
Bowyer and Gallen have recognised this with the signings they’ve brought in. Three exciting young midfielders, two of them wingers who will add pace to our team. Two new strikers, both with attributes that really stand out - Stockley a much more natural target man Bogle or Aneke, and Schwartz a genuine poacher who will anticipate and finish chances.
Jaiyesimi I should be a sign of things to come, a young but proven player on a long term contract. I have no doubt if given the chance Bowyer and Gallen will have learnt from this season and having a full window and no ownership issues will see them approach this summer’s rebuild differently.
Whether they get that chance is all down to Bowyer. He’s got most of the signings he wanted and moved on players who weren’t going to move us forward (could have done with Williams in the squad though). He needs us to go on a run soon before a few bad months turns in to a bad season. Simple 4-4-2 or 4-5-1 from now on, accept we don’t have the players for the diamond and no more calling out players in public. As well as improving defensively Millar and DJ staying fit and the latter making an impact are key in turning this around.6 -
The squad is definitely good enough.
The problem is the manager doesn’t know his best team, formation or game plan. Injuries only play a small part in the consistent rotating. How many times this season have we had to change things at HT already behind or struggling in the game.The stat with Accrington’s use of players compared to ours speaks volumes.I think with now we have two natural wingers he has to go 4-4-2. Pick two complimenting CM’s and stick with them. Try and form a consistent attacking partnership and play the returning Famewo with Deji. We’ve got some nice fixtures in February. There are NO excuses.6 -
ValleyGary said:The squad is definitely good enough.
The problem is the manager doesn’t know his best team, formation or game plan. Injuries only play a small part in the consistent rotating. How many times this season have we had to change things at HT already behind or struggling in the game.The stat with Accrington’s use of players compared to ours speaks volumes.I think with now we have two natural wingers he has to go 4-4-2. Pick two complimenting CM’s and stick with them. Try and form a consistent attacking partnership and play the returning Famewo with Deji. We’ve got some nice fixtures in February. There are NO excuses.That's pretty much on the money.Individually we have a decent squad - collectively they are playing like strangers (because, due to the rotation and the constant chopping and changing with the tactics, that's what they are).0 -
Granted the play offs are a lottery but Scraped up via the play offs? You do realise we finished third and were on a great run. If players like bielik and cullen were with us from the start and not the end of the windows, we may have gone up automatically.eaststandmike said:Just a bunch of names on a team sheet, when you watch the EFL show on Quest there are plenty of league one players putting our lot to shame.
Look at the players we had when we were promoted, Phillips, Beilik, Aribo, Cullen, Taylor etc and we scraped up via the play offs, we did not cruise to the title.
The squad we have now are nowhere near as good so no surprises we are where we are.
wycombe being 8th and getting into the play offs on ppg scraped up via the play offs.2 -
If you made me point to one example of how good our squad is for this level I’d say Omar Bogle.
Our 5th choice striker who signed for a promotion rival who are better than us.
We've massively underachieved.3 -
Hindsight is a wonder full thing but take that list of players back to August 2018. There was no guarantee that those 5 would perform to the level they did by the end of the season. Then compare it to say Amos, Gunter, Watson, Shinnie and Washington in August 2020.eaststandmike said:Just a bunch of names on a team sheet, when you watch the EFL show on Quest there are plenty of league one players putting our lot to shame.
Look at the players we had when we were promoted, Phillips, Beilik, Aribo, Cullen, Taylor etc and we scraped up via the play offs, we did not cruise to the title.
The squad we have now are nowhere near as good so no surprises we are where we are.
I would say that later would more likely to achieve something.
Phillips had hardly ever played and was replaced at the start of the season by Steer, Beilik was no guarantee because he didn't play when on loan at Walsall the previous season, Cullen had just had an, average at best, loan at Bolton, Aribo was an exciting but inconsistent prospect and Taylor was a lower league journeyman.
Truth be told we were probably more excited about Page, Igor, Reeves, JFC and Fosu before the season started.4 -
Our midfield are mid-table at best - JFC, Morgan, Watson and Pratley aren't top 6 quality.
Shinnie is the only top 6 midfielder we have in my view.2 -
What I meant by saying we "scraped up via the play offs" was the fact for a large chunk of the game we were played off the park in the semi final 2nd leg at The Valley. And the final was not all one way and as we know we scored a last minute winner.Todds_right_hook said:
Granted the play offs are a lottery but Scraped up via the play offs? You do realise we finished third and were on a great run. If players like bielik and cullen were with us from the start and not the end of the windows, we may have gone up automatically.eaststandmike said:Just a bunch of names on a team sheet, when you watch the EFL show on Quest there are plenty of league one players putting our lot to shame.
Look at the players we had when we were promoted, Phillips, Beilik, Aribo, Cullen, Taylor etc and we scraped up via the play offs, we did not cruise to the title.
The squad we have now are nowhere near as good so no surprises we are where we are.
wycombe being 8th and getting into the play offs on ppg scraped up via the play offs.
That team was head and shoulders above what we have now and of course I forgot Bauer in the first post, yet people still seem convinced given the right manager and/or selection process we are currently a comfortable top two team for the automatics.1 -
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18/19
Phillips
Dijksteel, Bauer, Sarr, Purrington
Bielik
Cullen, Aribo
Williams
Taylor, Parker
Amos, Solly, Pearce, Pratley, Morgan, Lapslie, Reeves, Vetokele
20/21
Amos
Gunter, Inniss, Famewo, Maatsen
Pratley
JFC, Shinnie
Millar
Stockley, Washington
AMB, Matthews, Oshilaja, Morgan, Smith, Jaiyesimi, Aneke
Obviously our best XI and subs bench is well and truly up for debate as even bowyer doesn’t know it. But I think based on this two things are obvious:
Our 18/19 XI is better.
Our 20/21 bench is better.
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Like for like in the XI I think 18/19 wins 5 to 3 with the remaining 3 a tie (Dijksteel v Gunter, Famewo v Sarr, Aribo v Shinnie)BR7_addick said:18/19
Phillips
Dijksteel, Bauer, Sarr, Purrington
Bielik
Cullen, Aribo
Williams
Taylor, Parker
Amos, Solly, Pearce, Pratley, Morgan, Lapslie, Reeves, Vetokele
20/21
Amos
Gunter, Inniss, Famewo, Maatsen
Pratley
JFC, Shinnie
Millar
Stockley, Washington
AMB, Matthews, Oshilaja, Morgan, Smith, Jaiyesimi, Aneke
Obviously our best XI and subs bench is well and truly up for debate as even bowyer doesn’t know it. But I think based on this two things are obvious:
Our 18/19 XI is better.
Our 20/21 bench is better.
And 20/21 bench wins 5-2.0 -
For the sake of discussion, let’s accept everything you have said. How does this compare to Hull and Lincoln?DamoNorthStand said:I have always said Lee Bowyer was exceptionally lucky in the standard of players he was able to bring in post Thomas arriving.
Other managers are not so fortunate hence why he has to get us up this year IMO.
Look at the other teams and their signings. Doncaster bought in Bogle FFS...
Lets look at Bowyers signings from Thomas coming in:
1) Watson - Forest fans were gutted to lose him and with his pedigree should be more than enough for league one.
2) Gunter - most capped welsh player ever
3) Famewo - top defender at this level
4) Inniss - ditto
5) Shinnie - played key role just 2 years back in Luton’s promotion
6) Gilbey - MK DONS player of the year
7) Maddison - one of the most consistent league one players in recent years towards the top of the division
8) Matthews - rated by us in the championship last year.9) Maatsen / Miller - solid youngsters from top premier league set ups
10) Washington - significant experience at a higher level and should easily be able to get 15 goals with these players around him.
Add the likes of Amos, Williams, JFC, Purrington (our left back last time we went up)
Looking at that, how can anyone think the performance this year is reasonable??1 -
When Hull signed Josh Magennis (26 appearances this season), everyone on this site was ripping the shit out of them. The feeling I got was if we resigned him, we would not be best pleased.Redrobo said:
For the sake of discussion, let’s accept everything you have said. How does this compare to Hull and Lincoln?DamoNorthStand said:I have always said Lee Bowyer was exceptionally lucky in the standard of players he was able to bring in post Thomas arriving.
Other managers are not so fortunate hence why he has to get us up this year IMO.
Look at the other teams and their signings. Doncaster bought in Bogle FFS...
Lets look at Bowyers signings from Thomas coming in:
1) Watson - Forest fans were gutted to lose him and with his pedigree should be more than enough for league one.
2) Gunter - most capped welsh player ever
3) Famewo - top defender at this level
4) Inniss - ditto
5) Shinnie - played key role just 2 years back in Luton’s promotion
6) Gilbey - MK DONS player of the year
7) Maddison - one of the most consistent league one players in recent years towards the top of the division
8) Matthews - rated by us in the championship last year.9) Maatsen / Miller - solid youngsters from top premier league set ups
10) Washington - significant experience at a higher level and should easily be able to get 15 goals with these players around him.
Add the likes of Amos, Williams, JFC, Purrington (our left back last time we went up)
Looking at that, how can anyone think the performance this year is reasonable??
Point being is even if on paper these players dont have the pedigree or were unproven - thats not to knock them. Hats off to the manager for uncovering them and getting them to perform. Lee Bowyer, Chris Powell, Curbs, whoever - thats what I expect our manager to do.
Anyway - Lincolns line up for their last game v Doncaster:
1) Alex Palmer - Goalkeeper who has spent his career knocking around league 2. Amos is proven at a high level.
2) Timothy Eyoma. 0 appearances for Spurs. Well within our budget. We got Maatsen, Smith, Levitt who are all from a similar big club background. I would argue with one of them being a full international already we compare well to anyone on loans we have secured.
3) Adam Jackson - about as average as you can get. 'Whelmed' would be the common used word if we had signed him I expect.
4) Joe Walsh - signed from MK Dons. Well we got their player of the year!
5) Tayo Edun - seems to have a decent youth CV but no reason we couldnt have gone for him.
6) Liam Bridcutt - the player that best compares to a Watson style signing, with not quite the same pedigree. Not wanted by Forest.... come good at Lincoln
7) Conor McGrandles - another MK Dons player who obviously wasnt rated quite as high as Gilbey in the POTY voting
8) Jorge Grant - 17 appearances for Forest in 6 years. Kicked around the lower leagues on loans otherwise
9) Brennan Johnson - 19 year old on loan from Forest. 1 cap for Wales. We get a young welsh international from Man Utd still learning his trade. They get the same from Forest.
10) Morgan Rogers - 18 year old. No league appearances. At Man City. They dig him out..... we get similar but half of them dont make half the impact
11) Tom Hopper - look at the strikers LB has bought on. Shame he didnt have the riches of Lincoln to get in a player who has scored 10 in 30 for Southend before he joined.
The overall squad is also massively lacking in depth compared to ours.
With the resources we have had, and the players who came in, there is no possible way to argue we are underachieving.
And if Appleton is getting the above players to perform for so much of the season, then it is perfectly reasonable to expect better from Bowyer.5 -
Never bought into the top two nonsense but always thought we had a decent shout of playoffs. Failing to get a playoff place is without doubt a failure and will be viewed as such by TS. It boils down to what TS sees or doesn’t see by way of performances between now and seasons end. Basically it’s in Bowyers hands. A string of sparkling performances between now and then and I think he gets a chance to start next season. More of what we’ve recently seen and TS has a big decision to make.1
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DamoNorthStand said:
As in referring to the general environment / playground clubs around can operate in being apparent in the transfer window just gone.Callumcafc said:DamoNorthStand said:I have always said Lee Bowyer was exceptionally lucky in the standard of players he was able to bring in post Thomas arriving.
Look at the other teams and their signings. Doncaster bought in Bogle FFS...
Lee had the ability with his owner to Chuck out a failed experiment to a better team than us who are willing to take him.
But poor old hard done by LB has to make do with Jayden Stockley from the Championship, Ronnie Schwartz who has one of the best pedigrees in the Danish top flight, and two of Swindon’s best players at the click of a finger.
The point isn’t hard to understand. I will say it again - if Lee Bowyer was called Bob Smith with no previous emotional connection to Charlton then he wouldn’t be getting as easy ride as he is
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I honestly dont buy into the fact that our squad isnt good enough to get promoted. It should easily get into the playoffs and imo that would be an under achievement. For whatever reason they are not performing as they should and everyone has different views on why that is. My own opinion is that we are being set up to be too negative. when we play out from the back we play across the field 2 or 3 times which allows the opposition to get all players behind the ball and can then cope with our attempts to play in behind them. We start games with a team that seems to be set up to contain the opposition until we make our second half substitutions, unfortunately by then it has been too late and we are chasing the game.
I'm in the camp that LB needs a reset mentally. In an ideal world he should go off for a few weeks and sit by a lake to clear his head and come back refreshed with a new mindset as I honestly do not think he is looking at things clearly at the moment and who would blame him for that with what he has had to deal with the last year. Unfortunately this cant happen in football and fear he will carry on with his current view which I dont think is going to work which will leave TS with no choice1 -
the squad is strong, probably the strongest in the division, at least in depth and potential .. EXCEPT in central defence .. and there is no guarantee when Famewo and Inniss return, and when/if they do, will they be anywhere near match fit and sharp enough.
A BIG mistake has been in not signing another central defender and that has and will continue to cost us dear despite all the new attacking and midfield talent signed during the last window and the shedding of some deadwood as well as promising young talent. Davison is now a starter at Forest Green, currently second in L2 and Lapslie is playing out of his skin for Mansfield, the form team in L2.
Davison we will get back, but not alas Lapslie. Both should still be in OUR squad1 -
AbsolutelyShootersHillGuru said:Never bought into the top two nonsense but always thought we had a decent shout of playoffs. Failing to get a playoff place is without doubt a failure and will be viewed as such by TS. It boils down to what TS sees or doesn’t see by way of performances between now and seasons end. Basically it’s in Bowyers hands. A string of sparkling performances between now and then and I think he gets a chance to start next season. More of what we’ve recently seen and TS has a big decision to make.
In addition to this, if Bowyer does string together some form between now and seasons end, but misses out on play offs it will be interesting how TS manages that as we've seen with the previous owner, the extreme way to deal with failure.0 -
Dijksteel is better than Gunter. Aribo is better than Shinnie.BR7_addick said:
Like for like in the XI I think 18/19 wins 5 to 3 with the remaining 3 a tie (Dijksteel v Gunter, Famewo v Sarr, Aribo v Shinnie)BR7_addick said:18/19
Phillips
Dijksteel, Bauer, Sarr, Purrington
Bielik
Cullen, Aribo
Williams
Taylor, Parker
Amos, Solly, Pearce, Pratley, Morgan, Lapslie, Reeves, Vetokele
20/21
Amos
Gunter, Inniss, Famewo, Maatsen
Pratley
JFC, Shinnie
Millar
Stockley, Washington
AMB, Matthews, Oshilaja, Morgan, Smith, Jaiyesimi, Aneke
Obviously our best XI and subs bench is well and truly up for debate as even bowyer doesn’t know it. But I think based on this two things are obvious:
Our 18/19 XI is better.
Our 20/21 bench is better.
And 20/21 bench wins 5-2.2
