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Savings and Investments thread
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As it has been said, retail investment funds are not priced on a minute by minute trading basis. I don't think they can because the underlying fund itself is being traded daily, by the fund manager. You can't realistically log on a 2.30pm & expect to trade on a fund where the fund manger might be logging on & trading himself at 2.31pm. He might be moving millions of pounds of money in or out of the fund. Surely you can give him until the close of business to do this. Overnight all his trades will be sorted & the fund revalued. You might just have to accept that you will always be a day behind on what you perceive the value of your fund should be. Retail funds are not supposed to be used for daily trading. As @Rob7Lee says, most people don't even trade monthly and most people in ISA's or pensions leave their investments as they are for years !PragueAddick said:
I'm not a day trader either. However I do think that if I can buy something 4% cheaper if I stay alert and buy when the price is offered, that 4% is worth banking, no?Rob7Lee said:Currently prices are set once a day for funds (I believe), usually after close. ETF's change price throughout the day and are listed on exchanges so you can get real time pricing.
But you make a fair point, I'm sure it's possible, but doubt that many people who buy funds are day traders, in fact most probably hold for months if not years, so maybe the overall need isn't there?
If you want real time then currently don't trade in funds but trade yourself with individual shares or ETF's or Bitcoin!
As far as I am aware, at no point in a given day can I go on the H-L platform or any other, ascertain the current price of a given fund, and then buy at that price. That is frankly an infringement of the basic law of contract.1 -
Might have been this morning, but the FTSE is now only 0.3% up on the day & has fallen back slowly sine lunchtime.PragueAddick said:Markets on the way to recovering all the losses that people were fretting about on here a week ago.
And to underline the point I made last week, that fund-based mug punters can't play the market short term even if they want to, here is an example.
On the 22Feb I tried to "buy the dip" with some Baillie Gifford Europe, on the H-L platform. I now find that according to the graph, I bought and then it immediately lost 4% of value the next day. WTAF?
Now, can anyone give me any example of another huge retail market where it is perfectly legal to sell the goods to punters and not be able to tell them, in advance, the price you will pay for those goods????
And can anyone give me a good reason why these unit trust funds cannot be priced and traded live in real time, when ETFs apparently can? I mean, I understand that it might be relatively complicated and expensive to make the necessary changes, but I don't think that's a good reason. It's just a convenience for the loaded, skillfully lobbying industry, allowing them to fleece mug punters. Just as for many years they fleeced us with their ridiculous, and as it turns out, entirely unnecessary 5% bid-offer spread pricing.
There, I feel better now
That might be a good reason why you should not attempt to trade in "real time" as markets move up & down at a whim and you could easily be caught trading the wrong way.0 -
So why is it possible with active ETFs, then?golfaddick said:
As it has been said, retail investment funds are not priced on a minute by minute trading basis. I don't think they can because the underlying fund itself is being traded daily, by the fund manager. You can't realistically log on a 2.30pm & expect to trade on a fund where the fund manger might be logging on & trading himself at 2.31pm. He might be moving millions of pounds of money in or out of the fund. Surely you can give him until the close of business to do this. Overnight all his trades will be sorted & the fund revalued. You might just have to accept that you will always be a day behind on what you perceive the value of your fund should be. Retail funds are not supposed to be used for daily trading. As @Rob7Lee says, most people don't even trade monthly and most people in ISA's or pensions leave their investments as they are for years !PragueAddick said:
I'm not a day trader either. However I do think that if I can buy something 4% cheaper if I stay alert and buy when the price is offered, that 4% is worth banking, no?Rob7Lee said:Currently prices are set once a day for funds (I believe), usually after close. ETF's change price throughout the day and are listed on exchanges so you can get real time pricing.
But you make a fair point, I'm sure it's possible, but doubt that many people who buy funds are day traders, in fact most probably hold for months if not years, so maybe the overall need isn't there?
If you want real time then currently don't trade in funds but trade yourself with individual shares or ETF's or Bitcoin!
As far as I am aware, at no point in a given day can I go on the H-L platform or any other, ascertain the current price of a given fund, and then buy at that price. That is frankly an infringement of the basic law of contract.0 -
Nah, sorry, that's not it. I bought that tranche of Baillie Gifford Europe, after I saw the big dive in markets, and decided that big dive was overdone, so I could therefore pick up a "bargain", i.e that fund at 4% less than it had been the day before, for what I judged to be no good long term reason. Turns out that the price I paid was the price before the dive took place. That is just fucked up, sorry for my language. As you know I'm not a day trader, nothing near it, but I try to pick my moments to buy (Less good at the sell bit), and I cannot do that effectively.golfaddick said:
Might have been this morning, but the FTSE is now only 0.3% up on the day & has fallen back slowly sine lunchtime.PragueAddick said:Markets on the way to recovering all the losses that people were fretting about on here a week ago.
And to underline the point I made last week, that fund-based mug punters can't play the market short term even if they want to, here is an example.
On the 22Feb I tried to "buy the dip" with some Baillie Gifford Europe, on the H-L platform. I now find that according to the graph, I bought and then it immediately lost 4% of value the next day. WTAF?
Now, can anyone give me any example of another huge retail market where it is perfectly legal to sell the goods to punters and not be able to tell them, in advance, the price you will pay for those goods????
And can anyone give me a good reason why these unit trust funds cannot be priced and traded live in real time, when ETFs apparently can? I mean, I understand that it might be relatively complicated and expensive to make the necessary changes, but I don't think that's a good reason. It's just a convenience for the loaded, skillfully lobbying industry, allowing them to fleece mug punters. Just as for many years they fleeced us with their ridiculous, and as it turns out, entirely unnecessary 5% bid-offer spread pricing.
There, I feel better now
That might be a good reason why you should not attempt to trade in "real time" as markets move up & down at a whim and you could easily be caught trading the wrong way.
Or let me put it another way. Millionsof mug punters now go on price comparison sites for every little thing they buy, and end up buying it from Amazon to save 4% on £20, helping along the process of putting many decent retailers out of business. Yet being stitched up over 4% on £2,000 or more, is just something we should accept?1 -
BUT, you are comparing apples with pears.PragueAddick said:
Nah, sorry, that's not it. I bought that tranche of Baillie Gifford Europe, after I saw the big dive in markets, and decided that big dive was overdone, so I could therefore pick up a "bargain", i.e that fund at 4% less than it had been the day before, for what I judged to be no good long term reason. Turns out that the price I paid was the price before the dive took place. That is just fucked up, sorry for my language. As you know I'm not a day trader, nothing near it, but I try to pick my moments to buy (Less good at the sell bit), and I cannot do that effectively.golfaddick said:
Might have been this morning, but the FTSE is now only 0.3% up on the day & has fallen back slowly sine lunchtime.PragueAddick said:Markets on the way to recovering all the losses that people were fretting about on here a week ago.
And to underline the point I made last week, that fund-based mug punters can't play the market short term even if they want to, here is an example.
On the 22Feb I tried to "buy the dip" with some Baillie Gifford Europe, on the H-L platform. I now find that according to the graph, I bought and then it immediately lost 4% of value the next day. WTAF?
Now, can anyone give me any example of another huge retail market where it is perfectly legal to sell the goods to punters and not be able to tell them, in advance, the price you will pay for those goods????
And can anyone give me a good reason why these unit trust funds cannot be priced and traded live in real time, when ETFs apparently can? I mean, I understand that it might be relatively complicated and expensive to make the necessary changes, but I don't think that's a good reason. It's just a convenience for the loaded, skillfully lobbying industry, allowing them to fleece mug punters. Just as for many years they fleeced us with their ridiculous, and as it turns out, entirely unnecessary 5% bid-offer spread pricing.
There, I feel better now
That might be a good reason why you should not attempt to trade in "real time" as markets move up & down at a whim and you could easily be caught trading the wrong way.
Or let me put it another way. Millionsof mug punters now go on price comparison sites for every little thing they buy, and end up buying it from Amazon to save 4% on £20, helping along the process of putting many decent retailers out of business. Yet being stitched up over 4% on £2,000 or more, is just something we should accept?
You know the funds aren't priced in real time/same day, also unless you went through every stock in the holding the fund may not have gone down in value to the extent you thought anyway, or they may have sold some before the drop etc etc.
I agree with you in part that the way funds are valued doesn't lend itself to doing what you want to do, but you know that so you know you can't rely on an it dropping or increasing based on something entirely different.
If you want to trade real time or near as damn it, ETF's or individual shares.0 -
Aren’t ETFs derivatives? So they’re faster for that reason.0
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No, not really:kentaddick said:Aren’t ETFs derivatives? So they’re faster for that reason.
https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/102815/are-etfs-considered-derivatives.asp
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Sorry @PragueAddick, you will just have to accept that open-ended funds are not able to be traded on a "real time" basis & for whatever reason (forward pricing / time differences / currency movements) what you think the market is doing may not be fully replicated in the fund you are trying to trade.
Nohing us perfect & I'm sure you'll agree where what we have now is far better than the 5% bid-offer spread & historic pricing we had before the late 1990's. I suggest if you want to make a killing (of 4%) then you stick to individual shares or bitcoin. Retail funds are for medium to long term investing, not for trying to steal a march when you perceive there to be an opportunity.0 -
just makes a bigger argument for tokenised stocks imo.0
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ETFs are the solution to this.PragueAddick said:
So why is it possible with active ETFs, then?golfaddick said:
As it has been said, retail investment funds are not priced on a minute by minute trading basis. I don't think they can because the underlying fund itself is being traded daily, by the fund manager. You can't realistically log on a 2.30pm & expect to trade on a fund where the fund manger might be logging on & trading himself at 2.31pm. He might be moving millions of pounds of money in or out of the fund. Surely you can give him until the close of business to do this. Overnight all his trades will be sorted & the fund revalued. You might just have to accept that you will always be a day behind on what you perceive the value of your fund should be. Retail funds are not supposed to be used for daily trading. As @Rob7Lee says, most people don't even trade monthly and most people in ISA's or pensions leave their investments as they are for years !PragueAddick said:
I'm not a day trader either. However I do think that if I can buy something 4% cheaper if I stay alert and buy when the price is offered, that 4% is worth banking, no?Rob7Lee said:Currently prices are set once a day for funds (I believe), usually after close. ETF's change price throughout the day and are listed on exchanges so you can get real time pricing.
But you make a fair point, I'm sure it's possible, but doubt that many people who buy funds are day traders, in fact most probably hold for months if not years, so maybe the overall need isn't there?
If you want real time then currently don't trade in funds but trade yourself with individual shares or ETF's or Bitcoin!
As far as I am aware, at no point in a given day can I go on the H-L platform or any other, ascertain the current price of a given fund, and then buy at that price. That is frankly an infringement of the basic law of contract.I suspect much of this is based on regulatory regime Funds operate under. In the US they are obliged to redeem funds at the published NAV at the end of day. In fact, I believe that was one of the driving forces behind ETFs - creating a new asset class which was designed and approved for continuous trading of a basket of assets without having to change the 40 Act.1 - Sponsored links:
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I'm with you on this Prague, and the lack of transparency. Let's turn this round and suppose stock markets slump 4% today. Tomorrow you sell your funds. Based on the experience you've had on the buying side, you should expect to receive the pre-slump price for your funds. Really?PragueAddick said:
Nah, sorry, that's not it. I bought that tranche of Baillie Gifford Europe, after I saw the big dive in markets, and decided that big dive was overdone, so I could therefore pick up a "bargain", i.e that fund at 4% less than it had been the day before, for what I judged to be no good long term reason. Turns out that the price I paid was the price before the dive took place. That is just fucked up, sorry for my language. As you know I'm not a day trader, nothing near it, but I try to pick my moments to buy (Less good at the sell bit), and I cannot do that effectively.golfaddick said:
Might have been this morning, but the FTSE is now only 0.3% up on the day & has fallen back slowly sine lunchtime.PragueAddick said:Markets on the way to recovering all the losses that people were fretting about on here a week ago.
And to underline the point I made last week, that fund-based mug punters can't play the market short term even if they want to, here is an example.
On the 22Feb I tried to "buy the dip" with some Baillie Gifford Europe, on the H-L platform. I now find that according to the graph, I bought and then it immediately lost 4% of value the next day. WTAF?
Now, can anyone give me any example of another huge retail market where it is perfectly legal to sell the goods to punters and not be able to tell them, in advance, the price you will pay for those goods????
And can anyone give me a good reason why these unit trust funds cannot be priced and traded live in real time, when ETFs apparently can? I mean, I understand that it might be relatively complicated and expensive to make the necessary changes, but I don't think that's a good reason. It's just a convenience for the loaded, skillfully lobbying industry, allowing them to fleece mug punters. Just as for many years they fleeced us with their ridiculous, and as it turns out, entirely unnecessary 5% bid-offer spread pricing.
There, I feel better now
That might be a good reason why you should not attempt to trade in "real time" as markets move up & down at a whim and you could easily be caught trading the wrong way.
Or let me put it another way. Millionsof mug punters now go on price comparison sites for every little thing they buy, and end up buying it from Amazon to save 4% on £20, helping along the process of putting many decent retailers out of business. Yet being stitched up over 4% on £2,000 or more, is just something we should accept?
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Rob7Lee said:
At least you haven't got my Father In Law crowing at you, think it must be 3 years now since he didn't have a win, £100 again this month......... he was juts born lucky.Chaz Hill said:Disappointing outcome here. £25 for Mrs Chaz but bugger all for me and the boy
.don’t knock it, he probably has the max £50k...just think of it as the inheritance pot you will benefit from in years to come0 -
So have I and my wife yet he almost always wins more! Ageist I reckon.......... his girlfriend has £5k and has one £25 twice already this year which is a great return!letthegoodtimesroll said:Rob7Lee said:
At least you haven't got my Father In Law crowing at you, think it must be 3 years now since he didn't have a win, £100 again this month......... he was juts born lucky.Chaz Hill said:Disappointing outcome here. £25 for Mrs Chaz but bugger all for me and the boy
.don’t knock it, he probably has the max £50k...just think of it as the inheritance pot you will benefit from in years to come0 -
Well exactly, you'd think so. It just somehow never seems to work out that way, does it. I'm not looking to "make a killing" as @Rob7Lee suggests, simply I wish to stay alert and be rewarded for staying alert.Er_Be_Ab_Pl_Wo_Wo_Ch said:
I'm with you on this Prague, and the lack of transparency. Let's turn this round and suppose stock markets slump 4% today. Tomorrow you sell your funds. Based on the experience you've had on the buying side, you should expect to receive the pre-slump price for your funds. Really?PragueAddick said:
Nah, sorry, that's not it. I bought that tranche of Baillie Gifford Europe, after I saw the big dive in markets, and decided that big dive was overdone, so I could therefore pick up a "bargain", i.e that fund at 4% less than it had been the day before, for what I judged to be no good long term reason. Turns out that the price I paid was the price before the dive took place. That is just fucked up, sorry for my language. As you know I'm not a day trader, nothing near it, but I try to pick my moments to buy (Less good at the sell bit), and I cannot do that effectively.golfaddick said:
Might have been this morning, but the FTSE is now only 0.3% up on the day & has fallen back slowly sine lunchtime.PragueAddick said:Markets on the way to recovering all the losses that people were fretting about on here a week ago.
And to underline the point I made last week, that fund-based mug punters can't play the market short term even if they want to, here is an example.
On the 22Feb I tried to "buy the dip" with some Baillie Gifford Europe, on the H-L platform. I now find that according to the graph, I bought and then it immediately lost 4% of value the next day. WTAF?
Now, can anyone give me any example of another huge retail market where it is perfectly legal to sell the goods to punters and not be able to tell them, in advance, the price you will pay for those goods????
And can anyone give me a good reason why these unit trust funds cannot be priced and traded live in real time, when ETFs apparently can? I mean, I understand that it might be relatively complicated and expensive to make the necessary changes, but I don't think that's a good reason. It's just a convenience for the loaded, skillfully lobbying industry, allowing them to fleece mug punters. Just as for many years they fleeced us with their ridiculous, and as it turns out, entirely unnecessary 5% bid-offer spread pricing.
There, I feel better now
That might be a good reason why you should not attempt to trade in "real time" as markets move up & down at a whim and you could easily be caught trading the wrong way.
Or let me put it another way. Millionsof mug punters now go on price comparison sites for every little thing they buy, and end up buying it from Amazon to save 4% on £20, helping along the process of putting many decent retailers out of business. Yet being stitched up over 4% on £2,000 or more, is just something we should accept?
Again I challenge anyone to show me another major retail market sector where it is impossible to actually 100% know the price at which you buy or sell something. And yes I understand how it is. That doesn't make it acceptable though. And things only change when people say it's unacceptable.
Also @SomervilleAddick I get that ETF's give me the price precision I am looking for, but I don't understand ETFs very well. For my education can you or anyone help me understand how it is possible for an ETF to be priced live whereas a Unit/mutual fund cannot be, when both are typically made up of underlying holdings in real shares?0 -
will anyone here be buying coinbase stock?
https://www.axios.com/coinbase-valued-100-billion-direct-listing-9b43e316-7ff7-4f6a-a1db-4dc2481a93ee.html
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Thats a big valuation on first year of profit (141m) but I suspect that number will go up 5 fold. Might be tempted.kentaddick said:will anyone here be buying coinbase stock?
https://www.axios.com/coinbase-valued-100-billion-direct-listing-9b43e316-7ff7-4f6a-a1db-4dc2481a93ee.html
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One thing I’ve noticed is that my wife’s PB holding also includes one £20k chunk and that comes up trumps, probably because if you miss by one or more numbers drawn you also hold the ones either side; whereas I think I’ve got one reasonably chunky holding (but not a £20k one) but mostly £1ks and £2ks which I’ve purchased along the way out of spare cash in my accountRob7Lee said:
So have I and my wife yet he almost always wins more! Ageist I reckon.......... his girlfriend has £5k and has one £25 twice already this year which is a great return!letthegoodtimesroll said:Rob7Lee said:
At least you haven't got my Father In Law crowing at you, think it must be 3 years now since he didn't have a win, £100 again this month......... he was juts born lucky.Chaz Hill said:Disappointing outcome here. £25 for Mrs Chaz but bugger all for me and the boy
.don’t knock it, he probably has the max £50k...just think of it as the inheritance pot you will benefit from in years to come2 -
ETF's are traded on the Stock exchange so real time pricing and simply track an index, only downside for you is it's back to the bid offer you detestPragueAddick said:
Well exactly, you'd think so. It just somehow never seems to work out that way, does it. I'm not looking to "make a killing" as @Rob7Lee suggests, simply I wish to stay alert and be rewarded for staying alert.Er_Be_Ab_Pl_Wo_Wo_Ch said:
I'm with you on this Prague, and the lack of transparency. Let's turn this round and suppose stock markets slump 4% today. Tomorrow you sell your funds. Based on the experience you've had on the buying side, you should expect to receive the pre-slump price for your funds. Really?PragueAddick said:
Nah, sorry, that's not it. I bought that tranche of Baillie Gifford Europe, after I saw the big dive in markets, and decided that big dive was overdone, so I could therefore pick up a "bargain", i.e that fund at 4% less than it had been the day before, for what I judged to be no good long term reason. Turns out that the price I paid was the price before the dive took place. That is just fucked up, sorry for my language. As you know I'm not a day trader, nothing near it, but I try to pick my moments to buy (Less good at the sell bit), and I cannot do that effectively.golfaddick said:
Might have been this morning, but the FTSE is now only 0.3% up on the day & has fallen back slowly sine lunchtime.PragueAddick said:Markets on the way to recovering all the losses that people were fretting about on here a week ago.
And to underline the point I made last week, that fund-based mug punters can't play the market short term even if they want to, here is an example.
On the 22Feb I tried to "buy the dip" with some Baillie Gifford Europe, on the H-L platform. I now find that according to the graph, I bought and then it immediately lost 4% of value the next day. WTAF?
Now, can anyone give me any example of another huge retail market where it is perfectly legal to sell the goods to punters and not be able to tell them, in advance, the price you will pay for those goods????
And can anyone give me a good reason why these unit trust funds cannot be priced and traded live in real time, when ETFs apparently can? I mean, I understand that it might be relatively complicated and expensive to make the necessary changes, but I don't think that's a good reason. It's just a convenience for the loaded, skillfully lobbying industry, allowing them to fleece mug punters. Just as for many years they fleeced us with their ridiculous, and as it turns out, entirely unnecessary 5% bid-offer spread pricing.
There, I feel better now
That might be a good reason why you should not attempt to trade in "real time" as markets move up & down at a whim and you could easily be caught trading the wrong way.
Or let me put it another way. Millionsof mug punters now go on price comparison sites for every little thing they buy, and end up buying it from Amazon to save 4% on £20, helping along the process of putting many decent retailers out of business. Yet being stitched up over 4% on £2,000 or more, is just something we should accept?
Again I challenge anyone to show me another major retail market sector where it is impossible to actually 100% know the price at which you buy or sell something. And yes I understand how it is. That doesn't make it acceptable though. And things only change when people say it's unacceptable.
Also @SomervilleAddick I get that ETF's give me the price precision I am looking for, but I don't understand ETFs very well. For my education can you or anyone help me understand how it is possible for an ETF to be priced live whereas a Unit/mutual fund cannot be, when both are typically made up of underlying holdings in real shares?
Active Funds someone is actively buying and selling the underlying holdings, I guess you could argue many passive funds are all but an ETF in some respect.
I have an S&P 500 ETF, when you look at the performance of that index it's pretty good in the long term. If you would have put £10k in March 2009 after the crash that'd be worth around £60k now. Thats circa 18% per annum each and every year. Old Buffett is always telling people to just buy an S&P 500 ETF. Compare that to a FTSE 100 which wouldn't even have doubled your money.0 -
As I said, we could wind the clock back 35 years and have historic pricing and then you'd always know the price at what you are buying at. Problem was, when the great crash happened in 1987 all funds were suspended because the underlying assets didn't represent the "price" being quoted by the investment firm. I should know as I was working for Hill Samuel at the time in the NLA Tower in Croydon. Every morning we would get the prices of the funds (bid and offer) and if anyone rang up wanting to buy or sell we would tell them the price & if they accepted it we would then place a buy or sell order. That all changed on Monday 19th October (Black Monday) when the FTSE fell off a cliff, especially in late trading after the US markets opened. IIRC we suspended trading on the funds that afternoon and simply told callers that we couldn't give them a price but were happy to take a deal if they wanted to deal "blind". No-one did. Thing was, over the next couple of days we would get the funds re-priced once or twice a day, but when we did eventually get a price that we could deal at the fund was inevitably be suspended again as the underlying assets were all over the place.PragueAddick said:
Well exactly, you'd think so. It just somehow never seems to work out that way, does it. I'm not looking to "make a killing" as @Rob7Lee suggests, simply I wish to stay alert and be rewarded for staying alert.Er_Be_Ab_Pl_Wo_Wo_Ch said:
I'm with you on this Prague, and the lack of transparency. Let's turn this round and suppose stock markets slump 4% today. Tomorrow you sell your funds. Based on the experience you've had on the buying side, you should expect to receive the pre-slump price for your funds. Really?PragueAddick said:
Nah, sorry, that's not it. I bought that tranche of Baillie Gifford Europe, after I saw the big dive in markets, and decided that big dive was overdone, so I could therefore pick up a "bargain", i.e that fund at 4% less than it had been the day before, for what I judged to be no good long term reason. Turns out that the price I paid was the price before the dive took place. That is just fucked up, sorry for my language. As you know I'm not a day trader, nothing near it, but I try to pick my moments to buy (Less good at the sell bit), and I cannot do that effectively.golfaddick said:
Might have been this morning, but the FTSE is now only 0.3% up on the day & has fallen back slowly sine lunchtime.PragueAddick said:Markets on the way to recovering all the losses that people were fretting about on here a week ago.
And to underline the point I made last week, that fund-based mug punters can't play the market short term even if they want to, here is an example.
On the 22Feb I tried to "buy the dip" with some Baillie Gifford Europe, on the H-L platform. I now find that according to the graph, I bought and then it immediately lost 4% of value the next day. WTAF?
Now, can anyone give me any example of another huge retail market where it is perfectly legal to sell the goods to punters and not be able to tell them, in advance, the price you will pay for those goods????
And can anyone give me a good reason why these unit trust funds cannot be priced and traded live in real time, when ETFs apparently can? I mean, I understand that it might be relatively complicated and expensive to make the necessary changes, but I don't think that's a good reason. It's just a convenience for the loaded, skillfully lobbying industry, allowing them to fleece mug punters. Just as for many years they fleeced us with their ridiculous, and as it turns out, entirely unnecessary 5% bid-offer spread pricing.
There, I feel better now
That might be a good reason why you should not attempt to trade in "real time" as markets move up & down at a whim and you could easily be caught trading the wrong way.
Or let me put it another way. Millionsof mug punters now go on price comparison sites for every little thing they buy, and end up buying it from Amazon to save 4% on £20, helping along the process of putting many decent retailers out of business. Yet being stitched up over 4% on £2,000 or more, is just something we should accept?
Again I challenge anyone to show me another major retail market sector where it is impossible to actually 100% know the price at which you buy or sell something. And yes I understand how it is. That doesn't make it acceptable though. And things only change when people say it's unacceptable.
Also @SomervilleAddick I get that ETF's give me the price precision I am looking for, but I don't understand ETFs very well. For my education can you or anyone help me understand how it is possible for an ETF to be priced live whereas a Unit/mutual fund cannot be, when both are typically made up of underlying holdings in real shares?
Sadly @PragueAddick, forward pricing is the upshot of those times & where we are now at is probably the best you are going to get.0 -
ETFs are effectively a hybrid between a closed-end investment trust (which trades exactly like a listed share and can often be at a meaningful discount/premium to its net asset value [NAV]) and an open-end unit trust (which at most is available for daily dealing [and sometimes less frequently if the underlying assets are difficult to value eg property]).
Because of their hybrid structure (the ETF manager does create/retire fund units/shares as required depending on demand/supply similar to a unit trust manager), it should only trade at a very small discount/premium to its net assets unless something has gone badly wrong in its management. However the fact that an investor is not guaranteed to deal exactly at NAV is precisely why it is able to be traded in real time unlike a unit trust (where NAV on entry/exit is guaranteed less any fees which might apply). It simply wouldn't be practical to have an open-ended fund traded in real time.
With regards to delays in processing unit trust trades, if an investor transacts directly with the fund (as opposed to via a platform) then the rules on exactly when an instruction has to be received and which valuation date will apply should be clear in the fund prospectus. I assume any potential delays when transacting via a platform are explained in their own terms and conditions and are simply a function of the fact that the use of the platform is an additional step in the whole process slowing things down. If so an investor has to weigh up the convenience of using a platform where all their positions can be viewed/traded and having individual accounts with multiple fund managers.
Either way obviously it's unfair to existing fundholders (and thus illegal!) for investors to be able to enter or exit the fund based on a retroactive valuation using new information which emerges afterwards. This topic was the subject of a 2003 scandal in the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_mutual_fund_scandal
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If you look closely at the platform on which you trade there should be a clearly defined dealing schedule (daily, weekly etc) and valuation deadline (i.e 9am).PragueAddick said:
I'm not a day trader either. However I do think that if I can buy something 4% cheaper if I stay alert and buy when the price is offered, that 4% is worth banking, no?Rob7Lee said:Currently prices are set once a day for funds (I believe), usually after close. ETF's change price throughout the day and are listed on exchanges so you can get real time pricing.
But you make a fair point, I'm sure it's possible, but doubt that many people who buy funds are day traders, in fact most probably hold for months if not years, so maybe the overall need isn't there?
If you want real time then currently don't trade in funds but trade yourself with individual shares or ETF's or Bitcoin!
As far as I am aware, at no point in a given day can I go on the H-L platform or any other, ascertain the current price of a given fund, and then buy at that price. That is frankly an infringement of the basic law of contract.The price you will see quoted should be the previous days NAV meaning that by the time you place a buy order, the fund will have been revalued and you will see fluctuations to account for that day’s trading. If you do your research, like any investor should, this shouldn’t come as a surprise.Example, if I login to a platform today (4th March) and check a fund that is priced daily, I will see the NAV of the fund at at close of business yesterday (3rd March). If I invest today (4th March at 10am) I will receive the price as at close of business on 4th March.0 -
Problem is @PragueAddick is saying differently. If I believe it correctly, he is saying he is getting a price 2 days from the day he is dealing. ie, deal on the 3rd of March (yesterday) and the deal only goes through overnight of the 4th and so updated value is on the 5th (tomorrow).jamescafc said:
If you look closely at the platform on which you trade there should be a clearly defined dealing schedule (daily, weekly etc) and valuation deadline (i.e 9am).PragueAddick said:
I'm not a day trader either. However I do think that if I can buy something 4% cheaper if I stay alert and buy when the price is offered, that 4% is worth banking, no?Rob7Lee said:Currently prices are set once a day for funds (I believe), usually after close. ETF's change price throughout the day and are listed on exchanges so you can get real time pricing.
But you make a fair point, I'm sure it's possible, but doubt that many people who buy funds are day traders, in fact most probably hold for months if not years, so maybe the overall need isn't there?
If you want real time then currently don't trade in funds but trade yourself with individual shares or ETF's or Bitcoin!
As far as I am aware, at no point in a given day can I go on the H-L platform or any other, ascertain the current price of a given fund, and then buy at that price. That is frankly an infringement of the basic law of contract.The price you will see quoted should be the previous days NAV meaning that by the time you place a buy order, the fund will have been revalued and you will see fluctuations to account for that day’s trading. If you do your research, like any investor should, this shouldn’t come as a surprise.Example, if I login to a platform today (4th March) and check a fund that is priced daily, I will see the NAV of the fund at at close of business yesterday (3rd March). If I invest today (4th March at 10am) I will receive the price as at close of business on 4th March.0 -
Ok, so I use Hargreaves Lansdowne and I believe that in this respect they operate like all the other platforms. This is what they have to say (my emphasis in bold)jamescafc said:
If you look closely at the platform on which you trade there should be a clearly defined dealing schedule (daily, weekly etc) and valuation deadline (i.e 9am).PragueAddick said:
I'm not a day trader either. However I do think that if I can buy something 4% cheaper if I stay alert and buy when the price is offered, that 4% is worth banking, no?Rob7Lee said:Currently prices are set once a day for funds (I believe), usually after close. ETF's change price throughout the day and are listed on exchanges so you can get real time pricing.
But you make a fair point, I'm sure it's possible, but doubt that many people who buy funds are day traders, in fact most probably hold for months if not years, so maybe the overall need isn't there?
If you want real time then currently don't trade in funds but trade yourself with individual shares or ETF's or Bitcoin!
As far as I am aware, at no point in a given day can I go on the H-L platform or any other, ascertain the current price of a given fund, and then buy at that price. That is frankly an infringement of the basic law of contract.The price you will see quoted should be the previous days NAV meaning that by the time you place a buy order, the fund will have been revalued and you will see fluctuations to account for that day’s trading. If you do your research, like any investor should, this shouldn’t come as a surprise.Example, if I login to a platform today (4th March) and check a fund that is priced daily, I will see the NAV of the fund at at close of business yesterday (3rd March). If I invest today (4th March at 10am) I will receive the price as at close of business on 4th March.
The price is based on the net asset value (NAV) of the underlying holdings divided by the number of units or shares in issue. Dealing for both types of fund takes place on a forward-pricing basis, which means that a buy or sell instruction is placed at the next available valuation point. For this reason investors do not know the price they will pay or receive until after the deal is completed.
One thing they miss out in that explanation is that funds are valued at different times of day. For example, Fundsmith Equity is valued at 12.00 mid-day (presumably UK time, it does not clarify). So, four hours ago it was priced at 543.34. If I whack my order in now, why, technically, can I not get it that price? H-L and Fundsmith have all of 20 hours to execute the transaction. Far from "not doing my research" I have at least twice asked H-L to explain when a particular price actually applies to a particular transaction. The kindest description of their answer would be "opaque"
When I read people saying it's just not technically possible, I think of Michael Lewis book "Flash Boys". It describes among other things how in the USA people in remote country areas found cables being laid. When they enquired they were told that they were fibre-optic cables. Great, they thought, broadband coming here. Oh, no. They were being laid for the exclusive benefit of JP Morgan, to give them literally nano-seconds of trading advantage over competitors, as well as retail investors. I read that and thought of my H-L experiences... and this book was published in 2014, meaning it describes technical developments which are more than 8 years old.
Truly, we are mug punters.0 -
More importantly than Prague's difficulties with real time buying, what on earth is going on with the Nasdaq?
Tech shares being sold off left, right and centre this last few days and my BG funds which are obviously heavy with them falling at an alarming rate.
Is this traders just coming into work and not feeling confident, so deciding to have a good old sell off, or is there something much bigger going on here which is going to take the Nasdaq back down to where it came from 6 months ago?
What do the professionals think?0 -
Sorry Prague but you're still not getting it. No, if you dealt today at 4pm you'll get the price calculated at noon tomorrow. That's forward pricing. No idea why Fundsmith would be valued at midday, but if it's the global fund you are talking about maybe they want to get the closing values of the Asian markets as well as the US.PragueAddick said:
Ok, so I use Hargreaves Lansdowne and I believe that in this respect they operate like all the other platforms. This is what they have to say (my emphasis in bold)jamescafc said:
If you look closely at the platform on which you trade there should be a clearly defined dealing schedule (daily, weekly etc) and valuation deadline (i.e 9am).PragueAddick said:
I'm not a day trader either. However I do think that if I can buy something 4% cheaper if I stay alert and buy when the price is offered, that 4% is worth banking, no?Rob7Lee said:Currently prices are set once a day for funds (I believe), usually after close. ETF's change price throughout the day and are listed on exchanges so you can get real time pricing.
But you make a fair point, I'm sure it's possible, but doubt that many people who buy funds are day traders, in fact most probably hold for months if not years, so maybe the overall need isn't there?
If you want real time then currently don't trade in funds but trade yourself with individual shares or ETF's or Bitcoin!
As far as I am aware, at no point in a given day can I go on the H-L platform or any other, ascertain the current price of a given fund, and then buy at that price. That is frankly an infringement of the basic law of contract.The price you will see quoted should be the previous days NAV meaning that by the time you place a buy order, the fund will have been revalued and you will see fluctuations to account for that day’s trading. If you do your research, like any investor should, this shouldn’t come as a surprise.Example, if I login to a platform today (4th March) and check a fund that is priced daily, I will see the NAV of the fund at at close of business yesterday (3rd March). If I invest today (4th March at 10am) I will receive the price as at close of business on 4th March.
The price is based on the net asset value (NAV) of the underlying holdings divided by the number of units or shares in issue. Dealing for both types of fund takes place on a forward-pricing basis, which means that a buy or sell instruction is placed at the next available valuation point. For this reason investors do not know the price they will pay or receive until after the deal is completed.
One thing they miss out in that explanation is that funds are valued at different times of day. For example, Fundsmith Equity is valued at 12.00 mid-day (presumably UK time, it does not clarify). So, four hours ago it was priced at 543.34. If I whack my order in now, why, technically, can I not get it that price? H-L and Fundsmith have all of 20 hours to execute the transaction. Far from "not doing my research" I have at least twice asked H-L to explain when a particular price actually applies to a particular transaction. The kindest description of their answer would be "opaque"
When I read people saying it's just not technically possible, I think of Michael Lewis book "Flash Boys". It describes among other things how in the USA people in remote country areas found cables being laid. When they enquired they were told that they were fibre-optic cables. Great, they thought, broadband coming here. Oh, no. They were being laid for the exclusive benefit of JP Morgan, to give them literally nano-seconds of trading advantage over competitors, as well as retail investors. I read that and thought of my H-L experiences... and this book was published in 2014, meaning it describes technical developments which are more than 8 years old.
Truly, we are mug punters.0 -
The City is rigged in favour of The City. Regulators snipe from the fringes but The City is always one step ahead. I speak from experience.1
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Some heavy heavy drops on the BG funds again today. What goes up in super speed....1
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As I've said many times on here, @pragueaddick, the lack of real time pricing is one of the key reasons I don't invest in unit trusts.Rob7Lee said:
BUT, you are comparing apples with pears.PragueAddick said:
Nah, sorry, that's not it. I bought that tranche of Baillie Gifford Europe, after I saw the big dive in markets, and decided that big dive was overdone, so I could therefore pick up a "bargain", i.e that fund at 4% less than it had been the day before, for what I judged to be no good long term reason. Turns out that the price I paid was the price before the dive took place. That is just fucked up, sorry for my language. As you know I'm not a day trader, nothing near it, but I try to pick my moments to buy (Less good at the sell bit), and I cannot do that effectively.golfaddick said:
Might have been this morning, but the FTSE is now only 0.3% up on the day & has fallen back slowly sine lunchtime.PragueAddick said:Markets on the way to recovering all the losses that people were fretting about on here a week ago.
And to underline the point I made last week, that fund-based mug punters can't play the market short term even if they want to, here is an example.
On the 22Feb I tried to "buy the dip" with some Baillie Gifford Europe, on the H-L platform. I now find that according to the graph, I bought and then it immediately lost 4% of value the next day. WTAF?
Now, can anyone give me any example of another huge retail market where it is perfectly legal to sell the goods to punters and not be able to tell them, in advance, the price you will pay for those goods????
And can anyone give me a good reason why these unit trust funds cannot be priced and traded live in real time, when ETFs apparently can? I mean, I understand that it might be relatively complicated and expensive to make the necessary changes, but I don't think that's a good reason. It's just a convenience for the loaded, skillfully lobbying industry, allowing them to fleece mug punters. Just as for many years they fleeced us with their ridiculous, and as it turns out, entirely unnecessary 5% bid-offer spread pricing.
There, I feel better now
That might be a good reason why you should not attempt to trade in "real time" as markets move up & down at a whim and you could easily be caught trading the wrong way.
Or let me put it another way. Millionsof mug punters now go on price comparison sites for every little thing they buy, and end up buying it from Amazon to save 4% on £20, helping along the process of putting many decent retailers out of business. Yet being stitched up over 4% on £2,000 or more, is just something we should accept?
You know the funds aren't priced in real time/same day, also unless you went through every stock in the holding the fund may not have gone down in value to the extent you thought anyway, or they may have sold some before the drop etc etc.
I agree with you in part that the way funds are valued doesn't lend itself to doing what you want to do, but you know that so you know you can't rely on an it dropping or increasing based on something entirely different.
If you want to trade real time or near as damn it, ETF's or individual shares.
Add in potential liquidity issues due to the open-ended structure, opaque charges, and all sorts of other ways of skimming off your capital and destroy value that is going on underneath and it's a poor product, in my opinion. Mug punters are kept 'happy' with their 7% return but have no sight of what they should have earned - and that's before you take into account that so many underperform.
Then the platforms have the check to charge on a 'assets under management' basis!
As for the technical reason they don't price in real time, it is to do with the fact that they are set up as a trust structure and how they then deal with redemptions and subscriptions overnight. The new ETFs that are not swaps based and invest directly, manage the same process during the day. But they are open to the same redemption and liquidity issues but they can manage them intra-day.
This evening, the FED has given an inflation warning. Hold on to your hats. Now that the US markets are crashing, you will see some very interesting outcomes in the cannabis and crypto EFTs, I think, as all that momentum gets unwound and they start to try to manage intra-data redemptions ....
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Helpful insight.WishIdStayedinthePub said:
As I've said many times on here, @pragueaddick, the lack of real time pricing is one of the key reasons I don't invest in unit trusts.Rob7Lee said:
BUT, you are comparing apples with pears.PragueAddick said:
Nah, sorry, that's not it. I bought that tranche of Baillie Gifford Europe, after I saw the big dive in markets, and decided that big dive was overdone, so I could therefore pick up a "bargain", i.e that fund at 4% less than it had been the day before, for what I judged to be no good long term reason. Turns out that the price I paid was the price before the dive took place. That is just fucked up, sorry for my language. As you know I'm not a day trader, nothing near it, but I try to pick my moments to buy (Less good at the sell bit), and I cannot do that effectively.golfaddick said:
Might have been this morning, but the FTSE is now only 0.3% up on the day & has fallen back slowly sine lunchtime.PragueAddick said:Markets on the way to recovering all the losses that people were fretting about on here a week ago.
And to underline the point I made last week, that fund-based mug punters can't play the market short term even if they want to, here is an example.
On the 22Feb I tried to "buy the dip" with some Baillie Gifford Europe, on the H-L platform. I now find that according to the graph, I bought and then it immediately lost 4% of value the next day. WTAF?
Now, can anyone give me any example of another huge retail market where it is perfectly legal to sell the goods to punters and not be able to tell them, in advance, the price you will pay for those goods????
And can anyone give me a good reason why these unit trust funds cannot be priced and traded live in real time, when ETFs apparently can? I mean, I understand that it might be relatively complicated and expensive to make the necessary changes, but I don't think that's a good reason. It's just a convenience for the loaded, skillfully lobbying industry, allowing them to fleece mug punters. Just as for many years they fleeced us with their ridiculous, and as it turns out, entirely unnecessary 5% bid-offer spread pricing.
There, I feel better now
That might be a good reason why you should not attempt to trade in "real time" as markets move up & down at a whim and you could easily be caught trading the wrong way.
Or let me put it another way. Millionsof mug punters now go on price comparison sites for every little thing they buy, and end up buying it from Amazon to save 4% on £20, helping along the process of putting many decent retailers out of business. Yet being stitched up over 4% on £2,000 or more, is just something we should accept?
You know the funds aren't priced in real time/same day, also unless you went through every stock in the holding the fund may not have gone down in value to the extent you thought anyway, or they may have sold some before the drop etc etc.
I agree with you in part that the way funds are valued doesn't lend itself to doing what you want to do, but you know that so you know you can't rely on an it dropping or increasing based on something entirely different.
If you want to trade real time or near as damn it, ETF's or individual shares.
Add in potential liquidity issues due to the open-ended structure, opaque charges, and all sorts of other ways of skimming off your capital and destroy value that is going on underneath and it's a poor product, in my opinion. Mug punters are kept 'happy' with their 7% return but have no sight of what they should have earned - and that's before you take into account that so many underperform.
Then the platforms have the check to charge on a 'assets under management' basis!
As for the technical reason they don't price in real time, it is to do with the fact that they are set up as a trust structure and how they then deal with redemptions and subscriptions overnight. The new ETFs that are not swaps based and invest directly, manage the same process during the day. But they are open to the same redemption and liquidity issues but they can manage them intra-day.
This evening, the FED has given an inflation warning. Hold on to your hats. Now that the US markets are crashing, you will see some very interesting outcomes in the cannabis and crypto EFTs, I think, as all that momentum gets unwound and they start to try to manage intra-data redemptions ....
The markets are a bit choppy, I'm in and out of Etoro every 5 minutes, probably madness but I'm on a buying spree.0 -
I think there'll be some bounces but we're overdue a 20-25% correction, so be careful!Rob7Lee said:
Helpful insight.WishIdStayedinthePub said:
As I've said many times on here, @pragueaddick, the lack of real time pricing is one of the key reasons I don't invest in unit trusts.Rob7Lee said:
BUT, you are comparing apples with pears.PragueAddick said:
Nah, sorry, that's not it. I bought that tranche of Baillie Gifford Europe, after I saw the big dive in markets, and decided that big dive was overdone, so I could therefore pick up a "bargain", i.e that fund at 4% less than it had been the day before, for what I judged to be no good long term reason. Turns out that the price I paid was the price before the dive took place. That is just fucked up, sorry for my language. As you know I'm not a day trader, nothing near it, but I try to pick my moments to buy (Less good at the sell bit), and I cannot do that effectively.golfaddick said:
Might have been this morning, but the FTSE is now only 0.3% up on the day & has fallen back slowly sine lunchtime.PragueAddick said:Markets on the way to recovering all the losses that people were fretting about on here a week ago.
And to underline the point I made last week, that fund-based mug punters can't play the market short term even if they want to, here is an example.
On the 22Feb I tried to "buy the dip" with some Baillie Gifford Europe, on the H-L platform. I now find that according to the graph, I bought and then it immediately lost 4% of value the next day. WTAF?
Now, can anyone give me any example of another huge retail market where it is perfectly legal to sell the goods to punters and not be able to tell them, in advance, the price you will pay for those goods????
And can anyone give me a good reason why these unit trust funds cannot be priced and traded live in real time, when ETFs apparently can? I mean, I understand that it might be relatively complicated and expensive to make the necessary changes, but I don't think that's a good reason. It's just a convenience for the loaded, skillfully lobbying industry, allowing them to fleece mug punters. Just as for many years they fleeced us with their ridiculous, and as it turns out, entirely unnecessary 5% bid-offer spread pricing.
There, I feel better now
That might be a good reason why you should not attempt to trade in "real time" as markets move up & down at a whim and you could easily be caught trading the wrong way.
Or let me put it another way. Millionsof mug punters now go on price comparison sites for every little thing they buy, and end up buying it from Amazon to save 4% on £20, helping along the process of putting many decent retailers out of business. Yet being stitched up over 4% on £2,000 or more, is just something we should accept?
You know the funds aren't priced in real time/same day, also unless you went through every stock in the holding the fund may not have gone down in value to the extent you thought anyway, or they may have sold some before the drop etc etc.
I agree with you in part that the way funds are valued doesn't lend itself to doing what you want to do, but you know that so you know you can't rely on an it dropping or increasing based on something entirely different.
If you want to trade real time or near as damn it, ETF's or individual shares.
Add in potential liquidity issues due to the open-ended structure, opaque charges, and all sorts of other ways of skimming off your capital and destroy value that is going on underneath and it's a poor product, in my opinion. Mug punters are kept 'happy' with their 7% return but have no sight of what they should have earned - and that's before you take into account that so many underperform.
Then the platforms have the check to charge on a 'assets under management' basis!
As for the technical reason they don't price in real time, it is to do with the fact that they are set up as a trust structure and how they then deal with redemptions and subscriptions overnight. The new ETFs that are not swaps based and invest directly, manage the same process during the day. But they are open to the same redemption and liquidity issues but they can manage them intra-day.
This evening, the FED has given an inflation warning. Hold on to your hats. Now that the US markets are crashing, you will see some very interesting outcomes in the cannabis and crypto EFTs, I think, as all that momentum gets unwound and they start to try to manage intra-data redemptions ....
The markets are a bit choppy, I'm in and out of Etoro every 5 minutes, probably madness but I'm on a buying spree.
I dumped anything high PE and had already stayed away from any momentum plays that had no revenue. A lot of hot money out there and you can already see it rushing for the door.1
