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Rumours Rumours - Summer 2021 edition (Deadline Day from p814)
Comments
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Agree with this, and there are two things going on, a fair bit of score-settling from that time, and an insistence from some, that you can't question what is posted, no matter how extreme it is. I'm more than happy for people to call me out, I can either engage in a civil way or just ignore the person looking either for a fight or an attempt to make them do a bit of performative cleverness.stoneroses19 said:
Agreed. Even if you just use CL as an example, ignoring social media, the mudslinging, extended arguments and dare I say abuse, between posters on a regular basis, actually all kicked off around the time of Nimer vs Southall. That was when a lot of people took sides and sadly the toxic nature of how a fair few posters use this site has grown since then.Stu_of_Kunming said:
The fan base was divided long before TS arrived and always will be, this isn’t unique to Charlton.Maccn05 said:
But isn’t that that middle???Stu_of_Kunming said:“ I try sit in the middle-ish”
“ largely instigated by TS’s ridiculous claims.”
Um.
I think lots of thing TS has done have been spot on and I think a few things he's don’t haven’t - like increasing expectations based on outlandish declarations?To say our fan base is divided and “largely instigated by TS’s ridiculous remarks” is incredible unfair, no matter what you think of the guy as a person or owner.
If you're going to post, especially if you're pissed off, sometimes writing it in notes/word/google docs first, leaving it 5 minutes, and then thinking, is that what I really want to say/come across as, before committing to the Post button.9 -
I think with their recruitment this window and with Paul Cook at the helm, Ipswich will more than likely get promoted this season, or at least let’s say have an outstanding chance. Part one of the strategy ✔️. Getting out of league one this way is one thing. Getting out of The Championship using the same strategy is quite another. Quite a few of this seasons buys and many of those remaining from before won’t cut it in The Championship. They’ll have to spend big again next season at a much greater cost with much less guaranteed success. It’s possible but if Ipswich are not in The Premier League in 24/25 then how long will the money tap be open. If and when it does close what then. Very high risk strategy.SomervilleAddick said:
That’s exactly it, as Dippenhall, it one high risk investment for the pension fund. Many funds have a high risk component. The story alway was that if 1 in 5 worked you made a profit even after writing off the other 4. It’s a bundle of cash for Ipswich, and a very small financial hit for the fund if it doesn’t work. But it not a cash stream. If they don’t succeed this year, or maybe next, the money will dry up quickly.cabbles said:
How does ORG/the pension fund make a return on its investment? I know the club could make money if they reach the Premier League, but how does that equate to an ROI for the fund? Is it going to be similar to the Glazers at Man Utd?Dippenhall said:
The pension fund has not made a direct investment in the club, it is has passed over it would seem about 0.03%, an insignificant part, of its £13bn of assets to a modest US portfolio manager ORG Portfolio Management as a small play on the market to diversify returns with a bit of risk and a higher potential return.AndyG said:
I do find this whole pension investment thing at Ipswich very interesting. I like alot of people have a SIPP and through that own some commercial property. When one of them need some maintenance the pension administrator insists I get 3 quotes for anything I spend from my SIPP. This is slightly annoying as I own a building maintenance company lol, but that is the job of a pension administrator and why I pay them their fees. How on earth has the administrator of that American fund approved investment into a football club in the uk ?Rothko said:
Exactly, very easy to spend Karen from Ohio 401k then your own moneyshine166 said:Can everyone thats saying we are obviously refusing to pay wages, at least acknowledge that TS is spending his own money, while the Ipswich owner is spending the money of others ?
It seems most of the investment will have been to acquire debt and property from Marcus Evans, so mostly fixed rate returns, and probably at tasty rates. That is the attraction for the pension fund.
The 90% equity gives ORG overall control to appoint management and give a windfall if Ipswich get promoted and justify the level of risk being taken. It does not mean there is a gravy train of cash pouring out of the pension fund. It is an arms length investment via ORG and if it goes bad it will just be one of the many small higher risk investments that statistically will go bad for the pension fund.
The pension fund will not be involved in the day to day running of the club, or writing cheques for Paul Cook, that is down to the management team. ORG is 90% shareholder but only has one representative sitting on the board. That is not the set up if you gave the club your magic porridge pot.
The management team calling the shots and spunking money on players are the 3 yanks who own "Three Lions Fund" which has a 5% investment and the CEO who is ex West Brom CEO. If it goes bad these will be the fall guys who ORG will blame for losing money for their client pension fund. ORG is not playing with its own money and it will not throw good money after bad on behalf of its client.
The idea that the pension fund is writing cheques for Paul Cook, or that he has access to an unlimited source of money is fanciful.
Paul Cook has been given the keys to the sweet shop, but when he runs out of sweets and the club is still in League 1 he will be stuffed even if the ultimate owner does have £13bn of assets.2 -
‘Its really simple of TS and his team’
Then you explain to us on here that it’s not that simple! One club wants too much money for one player and another player wants to play in the Championship.
I’ve got no problem with people speculating or hopeful of who they’d like us to sign, but perhaps word it so it doesn’t sound like a constant dig at the owner or his staff.19 -
Wigan and Ipswich have done their business early which is what we did when we’re promoted easily 10 years ago.Whilst none of us know what the budget is or who we should sign,we do know what is needed,another striker,a left back and an attacking midfielder,not to mention an experienced back up keeper.Adkins and Gallen must know this as well but whilst we don’t have them we will continue to drop points which may prove costly later.Surely with most clubs broke there have been enough good players available, so are we not smart enough or not rich enough to compete?and are we going to just be an average league 1 club instead of what we all believe,a decent Championship one.This is a big season and so far I find it worrying4
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Are you counting youth players in their released list?RonnieMoore said:
And they got rid of two teams as well there still 7 players short of players out to players inaddick1956 said:
Ipswich have signed nearly 2 teams thus far so it can be done.Garrymanilow said:Signing a new team is very easy when you just get to make up how much you think a player would cost. Personally I think we should get Messi £0.5m, Pogba £1.1m and van Dijk £0.4m. I haven't actually enquired about the players myself, but I've decided that's how much they'll cost so that's what it is. Get your finger out Sandgaard, these are a bargain
They currently have a senior squad of 27, which is more than they're allowed to register so they certainly aren't 7 players short on last season.0 -
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Just got around to catching up.@Scoham said:Where did Lewis Page play if Sparkes was Exeter’s left back?
I am not saying Sparkes is a compete Left Back - the comments preceeding this were about an "attacking left wing back" and that's the role Sparkes fulfilled last season for Exeter. According to his own manager he prefers to play more advanced. Below is taken from a local news story
"Sparkes, who is still only 20, made a total of 50 appearances in all competitions last year, scoring four goals, although he was often used in a more unfamiliar left-back role. That will change next season as Taylor intends to play him further forward and give him every opportunity to fulfil his undoubted potential.“For the benefit of Jack, we want to give him the freedom of playing higher up the pitch, but we could play with a back three as well next season and we know he can play as a wing-back,” Taylor said."
So it seems he can play in a few positions (LB / LW / RW) but being a left footer he could offer something to us anywhere on the left hand side. but could be the wing back we are looking for.
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Being an average league one team is bad enough. Being an average league one club is my concern.addick1956 said:
We are an average League 1 team .sandlerr001 said:Wigan and Ipswich have done their business early which is what we did when we’re promoted easily 10 years ago.Whilst none of us know what the budget is or who we should sign,we do know what is needed,another striker,a left back and an attacking midfielder,not to mention an experienced back up keeper.Adkins and Gallen must know this as well but whilst we don’t have them we will continue to drop points which may prove costly later.Surely with most clubs broke there have been enough good players available, so are we not smart enough or not rich enough to compete?and are we going to just be an average league 1 club instead of what we all believe,a decent Championship one.This is a big season and so far I find it worrying1 -
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🤣🤣ShootersHillGuru said:0 -
Page is at Harrogate Town now.Swisdom said:
Just got around to catching up.@Scoham said:Where did Lewis Page play if Sparkes was Exeter’s left back?
I am not saying Sparkes is a compete Left Back - the comments preceeding this were about an "attacking left wing back" and that's the role Sparkes fulfilled last season for Exeter. According to his own manager he prefers to play more advanced. Below is taken from a local news story
"Sparkes, who is still only 20, made a total of 50 appearances in all competitions last year, scoring four goals, although he was often used in a more unfamiliar left-back role. That will change next season as Taylor intends to play him further forward and give him every opportunity to fulfil his undoubted potential.“For the benefit of Jack, we want to give him the freedom of playing higher up the pitch, but we could play with a back three as well next season and we know he can play as a wing-back,” Taylor said."
So it seems he can play in a few positions (LB / LW / RW) but being a left footer he could offer something to us anywhere on the left hand side. but could be the wing back we are looking for.
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In my lifetime we've spent 32/55 years in the second flight. Where we belong? I think its 12 top division and 11 including this one in the third.ShootersHillGuru said:
Being an average league one team is bad enough. Being an average league one club is my concern.addick1956 said:
We are an average League 1 team .sandlerr001 said:Wigan and Ipswich have done their business early which is what we did when we’re promoted easily 10 years ago.Whilst none of us know what the budget is or who we should sign,we do know what is needed,another striker,a left back and an attacking midfielder,not to mention an experienced back up keeper.Adkins and Gallen must know this as well but whilst we don’t have them we will continue to drop points which may prove costly later.Surely with most clubs broke there have been enough good players available, so are we not smart enough or not rich enough to compete?and are we going to just be an average league 1 club instead of what we all believe,a decent Championship one.This is a big season and so far I find it worrying2 -
You know, very often the written word doesn’t convey what you’re ‘exactly’ trying to say…..there is no tone of voice for starters. Of course, inflection is very very important part of speech as it really says by sound and facial expression what you mean.TeeC said:Maccn05 said:
So to be open this was my post on Twitter.MrBurns said:
Tucker for £0.5m LOLElliotCAFC said:
This is the kind of thing the recruitment team and TS are up against.Expectations have been set so high, no matter what good business we do, it will be seen as “being done on the cheap” by a vocal section of the fan base.Not digging out this specific poster but it does show how some fans are living in a completely different reality.
My intention was simply to create some debate over who you’d like us to sign if we did spend bit mainly about the balance between do you spend the money and push for promotion and the extra £6m it delivers or do you do it on a budget and continue to lose £5-10m each season of you don’t go up?
Effectively what’s more cost effective / the best way. Not a serious demand of TS - and anyone who thinks it was needs to remove the stick from up their arse!
If you read the full thread you can clearly see I say I don’t expect this to happen at all. It’s just some fun, musings, ideas.
But it also Shows one of the biggest problems - our fanbase is divided right now between ‘The realists’ or the ‘Cult of Sandgaard’ or whatever you want to call it. I try sit in the middle-ish But it’s pretty nasty on the socials.If anyone posts anything on socials it just becomes a mud slinging match, point scoring with people trying to mug people off and a battle between the two sides. Our fan base isn’t a nice place right now, largely instigated by TS’s ridiculous claims. As evidenced on here by the comments to my post and it’s why I rarely post anymore after trying to get involved with this ‘community’The names selected were simply players I rate I have no ideas on the fees, I’m just a fan. But for your information I was told by some people who have a direct line in that yeah we did hold discussions with Tucker (no fee agreed) and we did discuss a deal when Charles (he was interested but wants a Champ move, if not would consider us) so is it really so ridiculous or living in another reality?
… and yeah I really do love FM have played it successfully for 30 years particularly on my business travels 👍🏼So chill the F out people it was just a bit of fun. It’s only football!
People are snidey and horrible. There is way of replying to something you disagree with without being disrespectful- we should all try and do that. I understood your point and thought it was reasonable.
So quite often people (that’s all of us in fact), sometimes get it wrong when deciphering the written word.That’s why occasionally emojis can be quite useful.
I do it myself………for better or worse!3 -
We were an average League 1 team in the Crofts/Foley era. I don’t think we’re as poor as that now. We can revisit this in a few weeks time.addick1956 said:
We are an average League 1 team .sandlerr001 said:Wigan and Ipswich have done their business early which is what we did when we’re promoted easily 10 years ago.Whilst none of us know what the budget is or who we should sign,we do know what is needed,another striker,a left back and an attacking midfielder,not to mention an experienced back up keeper.Adkins and Gallen must know this as well but whilst we don’t have them we will continue to drop points which may prove costly later.Surely with most clubs broke there have been enough good players available, so are we not smart enough or not rich enough to compete?and are we going to just be an average league 1 club instead of what we all believe,a decent Championship one.This is a big season and so far I find it worrying8 -
Ipswich's approach isn't as high risk as people keep saying. For the sake of simplicity I am going to use the following assumptions.ShootersHillGuru said:
I think with their recruitment this window and with Paul Cook at the helm, Ipswich will more than likely get promoted this season, or at least let’s say have an outstanding chance. Part one of the strategy ✔️. Getting out of league one this way is one thing. Getting out of The Championship using the same strategy is quite another. Quite a few of this seasons buys and many of those remaining from before won’t cut it in The Championship. They’ll have to spend big again next season at a much greater cost with much less guaranteed success. It’s possible but if Ipswich are not in The Premier League in 24/25 then how long will the money tap be open. If and when it does close what then. Very high risk strategy.SomervilleAddick said:
That’s exactly it, as Dippenhall, it one high risk investment for the pension fund. Many funds have a high risk component. The story alway was that if 1 in 5 worked you made a profit even after writing off the other 4. It’s a bundle of cash for Ipswich, and a very small financial hit for the fund if it doesn’t work. But it not a cash stream. If they don’t succeed this year, or maybe next, the money will dry up quickly.cabbles said:
How does ORG/the pension fund make a return on its investment? I know the club could make money if they reach the Premier League, but how does that equate to an ROI for the fund? Is it going to be similar to the Glazers at Man Utd?Dippenhall said:
The pension fund has not made a direct investment in the club, it is has passed over it would seem about 0.03%, an insignificant part, of its £13bn of assets to a modest US portfolio manager ORG Portfolio Management as a small play on the market to diversify returns with a bit of risk and a higher potential return.AndyG said:
I do find this whole pension investment thing at Ipswich very interesting. I like alot of people have a SIPP and through that own some commercial property. When one of them need some maintenance the pension administrator insists I get 3 quotes for anything I spend from my SIPP. This is slightly annoying as I own a building maintenance company lol, but that is the job of a pension administrator and why I pay them their fees. How on earth has the administrator of that American fund approved investment into a football club in the uk ?Rothko said:
Exactly, very easy to spend Karen from Ohio 401k then your own moneyshine166 said:Can everyone thats saying we are obviously refusing to pay wages, at least acknowledge that TS is spending his own money, while the Ipswich owner is spending the money of others ?
It seems most of the investment will have been to acquire debt and property from Marcus Evans, so mostly fixed rate returns, and probably at tasty rates. That is the attraction for the pension fund.
The 90% equity gives ORG overall control to appoint management and give a windfall if Ipswich get promoted and justify the level of risk being taken. It does not mean there is a gravy train of cash pouring out of the pension fund. It is an arms length investment via ORG and if it goes bad it will just be one of the many small higher risk investments that statistically will go bad for the pension fund.
The pension fund will not be involved in the day to day running of the club, or writing cheques for Paul Cook, that is down to the management team. ORG is 90% shareholder but only has one representative sitting on the board. That is not the set up if you gave the club your magic porridge pot.
The management team calling the shots and spunking money on players are the 3 yanks who own "Three Lions Fund" which has a 5% investment and the CEO who is ex West Brom CEO. If it goes bad these will be the fall guys who ORG will blame for losing money for their client pension fund. ORG is not playing with its own money and it will not throw good money after bad on behalf of its client.
The idea that the pension fund is writing cheques for Paul Cook, or that he has access to an unlimited source of money is fanciful.
Paul Cook has been given the keys to the sweet shop, but when he runs out of sweets and the club is still in League 1 he will be stuffed even if the ultimate owner does have £13bn of assets.
They get the same crowds as us.
Their academy has the same over heads as ours.
Their commercial and TV revenue is the same as us.
Their nonfootball staffing costs are similar to ours.
Despite increased costs you can get a lot closer to break even in the championship.
For a club of a similar size to us a wage bill of about 8 to 10 million a year and revenue in the region of 7 million, in league 1 is about right. Once you factor in all the other costs your looking at a loss of about 9ish million. Plus or minus transfers.
That's probably, more or less, true for about 6 clubs in league 1 this season, who have owners that can cover the loss. Then you have about six more that have significantly smaller fixed costs and over heads, but significantly smaller revenue streams (crowds, commercial etc) but can still pay decent wages and top it up with player sales.
I would suggest before you start every season there are 10-12 clubs who's aim is promotion. Most won't get promoted will have to book the loss and repeat it again next year.
If you work on the basis that most 1st team players at the "big clubs" are on between 4 and 6k a week. Going "all in" and paying all your first team 10k a week would increase your wage bill by about 3 million a year. Ipswich are not paying all their first team 10k a week, or even close in most cases.
You can cover that with one good sale if you don't go up. Someone like Fraser or Pigott, for example.
The clubs who get in big trouble, generally, are the championship clubs that end up paying 30k a week plus, in some cases plus a lot, chasing the premier league.
There is a middle ground to be found in the championship, there isn't in league 1 for a club as big as us and Ipswich.3 -
And eight out of the last thirteen in the third tier.theeenorth said:
In my lifetime we've spent 32/55 years in the second flight. Where we belong? I think its 12 top division and 11 including this one in the third.ShootersHillGuru said:
Being an average league one team is bad enough. Being an average league one club is my concern.addick1956 said:
We are an average League 1 team .sandlerr001 said:Wigan and Ipswich have done their business early which is what we did when we’re promoted easily 10 years ago.Whilst none of us know what the budget is or who we should sign,we do know what is needed,another striker,a left back and an attacking midfielder,not to mention an experienced back up keeper.Adkins and Gallen must know this as well but whilst we don’t have them we will continue to drop points which may prove costly later.Surely with most clubs broke there have been enough good players available, so are we not smart enough or not rich enough to compete?and are we going to just be an average league 1 club instead of what we all believe,a decent Championship one.This is a big season and so far I find it worrying3 -
Im not divided at all its you lot!.FishCostaFortune said:
It isn't even unique to football.Stu_of_Kunming said:
The fan base was divided long before TS arrived and always will be, this isn’t unique to Charlton.Maccn05 said:
But isn’t that that middle???Stu_of_Kunming said:“ I try sit in the middle-ish”
“ largely instigated by TS’s ridiculous claims.”
Um.
I think lots of thing TS has done have been spot on and I think a few things he's don’t haven’t - like increasing expectations based on outlandish declarations?2 -
Ipswich made around 3m in transfer fees by selling Dozzell, Downes and Gibbs this summer, so a lot of the money they've spent on their 16 signings has actually been recouped.Cafc43v3r said:
Ipswich's approach isn't as high risk as people keep saying. For the sake of simplicity I am going to use the following assumptions.ShootersHillGuru said:
I think with their recruitment this window and with Paul Cook at the helm, Ipswich will more than likely get promoted this season, or at least let’s say have an outstanding chance. Part one of the strategy ✔️. Getting out of league one this way is one thing. Getting out of The Championship using the same strategy is quite another. Quite a few of this seasons buys and many of those remaining from before won’t cut it in The Championship. They’ll have to spend big again next season at a much greater cost with much less guaranteed success. It’s possible but if Ipswich are not in The Premier League in 24/25 then how long will the money tap be open. If and when it does close what then. Very high risk strategy.SomervilleAddick said:
That’s exactly it, as Dippenhall, it one high risk investment for the pension fund. Many funds have a high risk component. The story alway was that if 1 in 5 worked you made a profit even after writing off the other 4. It’s a bundle of cash for Ipswich, and a very small financial hit for the fund if it doesn’t work. But it not a cash stream. If they don’t succeed this year, or maybe next, the money will dry up quickly.cabbles said:
How does ORG/the pension fund make a return on its investment? I know the club could make money if they reach the Premier League, but how does that equate to an ROI for the fund? Is it going to be similar to the Glazers at Man Utd?Dippenhall said:
The pension fund has not made a direct investment in the club, it is has passed over it would seem about 0.03%, an insignificant part, of its £13bn of assets to a modest US portfolio manager ORG Portfolio Management as a small play on the market to diversify returns with a bit of risk and a higher potential return.AndyG said:
I do find this whole pension investment thing at Ipswich very interesting. I like alot of people have a SIPP and through that own some commercial property. When one of them need some maintenance the pension administrator insists I get 3 quotes for anything I spend from my SIPP. This is slightly annoying as I own a building maintenance company lol, but that is the job of a pension administrator and why I pay them their fees. How on earth has the administrator of that American fund approved investment into a football club in the uk ?Rothko said:
Exactly, very easy to spend Karen from Ohio 401k then your own moneyshine166 said:Can everyone thats saying we are obviously refusing to pay wages, at least acknowledge that TS is spending his own money, while the Ipswich owner is spending the money of others ?
It seems most of the investment will have been to acquire debt and property from Marcus Evans, so mostly fixed rate returns, and probably at tasty rates. That is the attraction for the pension fund.
The 90% equity gives ORG overall control to appoint management and give a windfall if Ipswich get promoted and justify the level of risk being taken. It does not mean there is a gravy train of cash pouring out of the pension fund. It is an arms length investment via ORG and if it goes bad it will just be one of the many small higher risk investments that statistically will go bad for the pension fund.
The pension fund will not be involved in the day to day running of the club, or writing cheques for Paul Cook, that is down to the management team. ORG is 90% shareholder but only has one representative sitting on the board. That is not the set up if you gave the club your magic porridge pot.
The management team calling the shots and spunking money on players are the 3 yanks who own "Three Lions Fund" which has a 5% investment and the CEO who is ex West Brom CEO. If it goes bad these will be the fall guys who ORG will blame for losing money for their client pension fund. ORG is not playing with its own money and it will not throw good money after bad on behalf of its client.
The idea that the pension fund is writing cheques for Paul Cook, or that he has access to an unlimited source of money is fanciful.
Paul Cook has been given the keys to the sweet shop, but when he runs out of sweets and the club is still in League 1 he will be stuffed even if the ultimate owner does have £13bn of assets.
They get the same crowds as us.
Their academy has the same over heads as ours.
Their commercial and TV revenue is the same as us.
Their nonfootball staffing costs are similar to ours.
Despite increased costs you can get a lot closer to break even in the championship.
For a club of a similar size to us a wage bill of about 8 to 10 million a year and revenue in the region of 7 million, in league 1 is about right. Once you factor in all the other costs your looking at a loss of about 9ish million. Plus or minus transfers.
That's probably, more or less, true for about 6 clubs in league 1 this season, who have owners that can cover the loss. Then you have about six more that have significantly smaller fixed costs and over heads, but significantly smaller revenue streams (crowds, commercial etc) but can still pay decent wages and top it up with player sales.
I would suggest before you start every season there are 10-12 clubs who's aim is promotion. Most won't get promoted will have to book the loss and repeat it again next year.
If you work on the basis that most 1st team players at the "big clubs" are on between 4 and 6k a week. Going "all in" and paying all your first team 10k a week would increase your wage bill by about 3 million a year. Ipswich are not paying all their first team 10k a week, or even close in most cases.
You can cover that with one good sale if you don't go up. Someone like Fraser or Pigott, for example.
The clubs who get in big trouble, generally, are the championship clubs that end up paying 30k a week plus, in some cases plus a lot, chasing the premier league.
There is a middle ground to be found in the championship, there isn't in league 1 for a club as big as us and Ipswich.2 -
It would be an interesting game. On the balance of it, I think that side would edge it against the current side - although we still have a lot more building to do.JamesSeed said:
We were an average League 1 team in the Crofts/Foley era. I don’t think we’re as poor as that now. We can revisit this in a few weeks time.addick1956 said:
We are an average League 1 team .sandlerr001 said:Wigan and Ipswich have done their business early which is what we did when we’re promoted easily 10 years ago.Whilst none of us know what the budget is or who we should sign,we do know what is needed,another striker,a left back and an attacking midfielder,not to mention an experienced back up keeper.Adkins and Gallen must know this as well but whilst we don’t have them we will continue to drop points which may prove costly later.Surely with most clubs broke there have been enough good players available, so are we not smart enough or not rich enough to compete?and are we going to just be an average league 1 club instead of what we all believe,a decent Championship one.This is a big season and so far I find it worryingLet’s not forget that side included: Phillips, Aribo, Teixeira, Fox, Konsa, Grant, Lookman, Magennis, Pearce, Solly, JFC, Jay Dasilva and loads of other squad players like Chickson and Ulvestad.
Looking back it was a team worse than the sum of its parts1 -
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Good job Ipswich are so amenable or we would have nothing to talk about on our rumours thread.....
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But then most L1 clubs made money from transfer dealings. During 2020/21 we sold Bonne, Phillips and Doughty, that must be at least £3m.Chris_from_Sidcup said:
Ipswich made around 3m in transfer fees by selling Dozzell, Downes and Gibbs this summer, so a lot of the money they've spent on their 16 signings has actually been recouped.Cafc43v3r said:
Ipswich's approach isn't as high risk as people keep saying. For the sake of simplicity I am going to use the following assumptions.ShootersHillGuru said:
I think with their recruitment this window and with Paul Cook at the helm, Ipswich will more than likely get promoted this season, or at least let’s say have an outstanding chance. Part one of the strategy ✔️. Getting out of league one this way is one thing. Getting out of The Championship using the same strategy is quite another. Quite a few of this seasons buys and many of those remaining from before won’t cut it in The Championship. They’ll have to spend big again next season at a much greater cost with much less guaranteed success. It’s possible but if Ipswich are not in The Premier League in 24/25 then how long will the money tap be open. If and when it does close what then. Very high risk strategy.SomervilleAddick said:
That’s exactly it, as Dippenhall, it one high risk investment for the pension fund. Many funds have a high risk component. The story alway was that if 1 in 5 worked you made a profit even after writing off the other 4. It’s a bundle of cash for Ipswich, and a very small financial hit for the fund if it doesn’t work. But it not a cash stream. If they don’t succeed this year, or maybe next, the money will dry up quickly.cabbles said:
How does ORG/the pension fund make a return on its investment? I know the club could make money if they reach the Premier League, but how does that equate to an ROI for the fund? Is it going to be similar to the Glazers at Man Utd?Dippenhall said:
The pension fund has not made a direct investment in the club, it is has passed over it would seem about 0.03%, an insignificant part, of its £13bn of assets to a modest US portfolio manager ORG Portfolio Management as a small play on the market to diversify returns with a bit of risk and a higher potential return.AndyG said:
I do find this whole pension investment thing at Ipswich very interesting. I like alot of people have a SIPP and through that own some commercial property. When one of them need some maintenance the pension administrator insists I get 3 quotes for anything I spend from my SIPP. This is slightly annoying as I own a building maintenance company lol, but that is the job of a pension administrator and why I pay them their fees. How on earth has the administrator of that American fund approved investment into a football club in the uk ?Rothko said:
Exactly, very easy to spend Karen from Ohio 401k then your own moneyshine166 said:Can everyone thats saying we are obviously refusing to pay wages, at least acknowledge that TS is spending his own money, while the Ipswich owner is spending the money of others ?
It seems most of the investment will have been to acquire debt and property from Marcus Evans, so mostly fixed rate returns, and probably at tasty rates. That is the attraction for the pension fund.
The 90% equity gives ORG overall control to appoint management and give a windfall if Ipswich get promoted and justify the level of risk being taken. It does not mean there is a gravy train of cash pouring out of the pension fund. It is an arms length investment via ORG and if it goes bad it will just be one of the many small higher risk investments that statistically will go bad for the pension fund.
The pension fund will not be involved in the day to day running of the club, or writing cheques for Paul Cook, that is down to the management team. ORG is 90% shareholder but only has one representative sitting on the board. That is not the set up if you gave the club your magic porridge pot.
The management team calling the shots and spunking money on players are the 3 yanks who own "Three Lions Fund" which has a 5% investment and the CEO who is ex West Brom CEO. If it goes bad these will be the fall guys who ORG will blame for losing money for their client pension fund. ORG is not playing with its own money and it will not throw good money after bad on behalf of its client.
The idea that the pension fund is writing cheques for Paul Cook, or that he has access to an unlimited source of money is fanciful.
Paul Cook has been given the keys to the sweet shop, but when he runs out of sweets and the club is still in League 1 he will be stuffed even if the ultimate owner does have £13bn of assets.
They get the same crowds as us.
Their academy has the same over heads as ours.
Their commercial and TV revenue is the same as us.
Their nonfootball staffing costs are similar to ours.
Despite increased costs you can get a lot closer to break even in the championship.
For a club of a similar size to us a wage bill of about 8 to 10 million a year and revenue in the region of 7 million, in league 1 is about right. Once you factor in all the other costs your looking at a loss of about 9ish million. Plus or minus transfers.
That's probably, more or less, true for about 6 clubs in league 1 this season, who have owners that can cover the loss. Then you have about six more that have significantly smaller fixed costs and over heads, but significantly smaller revenue streams (crowds, commercial etc) but can still pay decent wages and top it up with player sales.
I would suggest before you start every season there are 10-12 clubs who's aim is promotion. Most won't get promoted will have to book the loss and repeat it again next year.
If you work on the basis that most 1st team players at the "big clubs" are on between 4 and 6k a week. Going "all in" and paying all your first team 10k a week would increase your wage bill by about 3 million a year. Ipswich are not paying all their first team 10k a week, or even close in most cases.
You can cover that with one good sale if you don't go up. Someone like Fraser or Pigott, for example.
The clubs who get in big trouble, generally, are the championship clubs that end up paying 30k a week plus, in some cases plus a lot, chasing the premier league.
There is a middle ground to be found in the championship, there isn't in league 1 for a club as big as us and Ipswich.0 -
I know which is why I suggested they could do so again next summer. It mitigates the risk. Its a lot harder when your in the championship and over paying players.Chris_from_Sidcup said:
Ipswich made around 3m in transfer fees by selling Dozzell, Downes and Gibbs this summer, so a lot of the money they've spent on their 16 signings has actually been recouped.Cafc43v3r said:
Ipswich's approach isn't as high risk as people keep saying. For the sake of simplicity I am going to use the following assumptions.ShootersHillGuru said:
I think with their recruitment this window and with Paul Cook at the helm, Ipswich will more than likely get promoted this season, or at least let’s say have an outstanding chance. Part one of the strategy ✔️. Getting out of league one this way is one thing. Getting out of The Championship using the same strategy is quite another. Quite a few of this seasons buys and many of those remaining from before won’t cut it in The Championship. They’ll have to spend big again next season at a much greater cost with much less guaranteed success. It’s possible but if Ipswich are not in The Premier League in 24/25 then how long will the money tap be open. If and when it does close what then. Very high risk strategy.SomervilleAddick said:
That’s exactly it, as Dippenhall, it one high risk investment for the pension fund. Many funds have a high risk component. The story alway was that if 1 in 5 worked you made a profit even after writing off the other 4. It’s a bundle of cash for Ipswich, and a very small financial hit for the fund if it doesn’t work. But it not a cash stream. If they don’t succeed this year, or maybe next, the money will dry up quickly.cabbles said:
How does ORG/the pension fund make a return on its investment? I know the club could make money if they reach the Premier League, but how does that equate to an ROI for the fund? Is it going to be similar to the Glazers at Man Utd?Dippenhall said:
The pension fund has not made a direct investment in the club, it is has passed over it would seem about 0.03%, an insignificant part, of its £13bn of assets to a modest US portfolio manager ORG Portfolio Management as a small play on the market to diversify returns with a bit of risk and a higher potential return.AndyG said:
I do find this whole pension investment thing at Ipswich very interesting. I like alot of people have a SIPP and through that own some commercial property. When one of them need some maintenance the pension administrator insists I get 3 quotes for anything I spend from my SIPP. This is slightly annoying as I own a building maintenance company lol, but that is the job of a pension administrator and why I pay them their fees. How on earth has the administrator of that American fund approved investment into a football club in the uk ?Rothko said:
Exactly, very easy to spend Karen from Ohio 401k then your own moneyshine166 said:Can everyone thats saying we are obviously refusing to pay wages, at least acknowledge that TS is spending his own money, while the Ipswich owner is spending the money of others ?
It seems most of the investment will have been to acquire debt and property from Marcus Evans, so mostly fixed rate returns, and probably at tasty rates. That is the attraction for the pension fund.
The 90% equity gives ORG overall control to appoint management and give a windfall if Ipswich get promoted and justify the level of risk being taken. It does not mean there is a gravy train of cash pouring out of the pension fund. It is an arms length investment via ORG and if it goes bad it will just be one of the many small higher risk investments that statistically will go bad for the pension fund.
The pension fund will not be involved in the day to day running of the club, or writing cheques for Paul Cook, that is down to the management team. ORG is 90% shareholder but only has one representative sitting on the board. That is not the set up if you gave the club your magic porridge pot.
The management team calling the shots and spunking money on players are the 3 yanks who own "Three Lions Fund" which has a 5% investment and the CEO who is ex West Brom CEO. If it goes bad these will be the fall guys who ORG will blame for losing money for their client pension fund. ORG is not playing with its own money and it will not throw good money after bad on behalf of its client.
The idea that the pension fund is writing cheques for Paul Cook, or that he has access to an unlimited source of money is fanciful.
Paul Cook has been given the keys to the sweet shop, but when he runs out of sweets and the club is still in League 1 he will be stuffed even if the ultimate owner does have £13bn of assets.
They get the same crowds as us.
Their academy has the same over heads as ours.
Their commercial and TV revenue is the same as us.
Their nonfootball staffing costs are similar to ours.
Despite increased costs you can get a lot closer to break even in the championship.
For a club of a similar size to us a wage bill of about 8 to 10 million a year and revenue in the region of 7 million, in league 1 is about right. Once you factor in all the other costs your looking at a loss of about 9ish million. Plus or minus transfers.
That's probably, more or less, true for about 6 clubs in league 1 this season, who have owners that can cover the loss. Then you have about six more that have significantly smaller fixed costs and over heads, but significantly smaller revenue streams (crowds, commercial etc) but can still pay decent wages and top it up with player sales.
I would suggest before you start every season there are 10-12 clubs who's aim is promotion. Most won't get promoted will have to book the loss and repeat it again next year.
If you work on the basis that most 1st team players at the "big clubs" are on between 4 and 6k a week. Going "all in" and paying all your first team 10k a week would increase your wage bill by about 3 million a year. Ipswich are not paying all their first team 10k a week, or even close in most cases.
You can cover that with one good sale if you don't go up. Someone like Fraser or Pigott, for example.
The clubs who get in big trouble, generally, are the championship clubs that end up paying 30k a week plus, in some cases plus a lot, chasing the premier league.
There is a middle ground to be found in the championship, there isn't in league 1 for a club as big as us and Ipswich.0 -
All this talk of budgets isnt TS being tight, aren't there FFP rules in place in the division re ratio of wages to turnover?
Ipswich seem to be either ignoring these and the squad limit or are confident its going to get kicked into touch by the PFA. I can see that happening with the squad limit but not the wages, thats been around for a few seasons
I think we may be playing by the rules as are others and this may help clubs, players and their agents get real the closer we get to deadline day.0 -
Can I just say deleting as I was so inaccurate it's crazy. Completely forgot about half that season, probably not a bad thing!ElliotCAFC said:
It would be an interesting game. On the balance of it, I think that side would edge it against the current side - although we still have a lot more building to do.JamesSeed said:
We were an average League 1 team in the Crofts/Foley era. I don’t think we’re as poor as that now. We can revisit this in a few weeks time.addick1956 said:
We are an average League 1 team .sandlerr001 said:Wigan and Ipswich have done their business early which is what we did when we’re promoted easily 10 years ago.Whilst none of us know what the budget is or who we should sign,we do know what is needed,another striker,a left back and an attacking midfielder,not to mention an experienced back up keeper.Adkins and Gallen must know this as well but whilst we don’t have them we will continue to drop points which may prove costly later.Surely with most clubs broke there have been enough good players available, so are we not smart enough or not rich enough to compete?and are we going to just be an average league 1 club instead of what we all believe,a decent Championship one.This is a big season and so far I find it worryingLet’s not forget that side included: Phillips, Aribo, Teixeira, Fox, Konsa, Grant, Lookman, Magennis, Pearce, Solly, JFC, Jay Dasilva and loads of other squad players like Chickson and Ulvestad.
Looking back it was a team worse than the sum of its parts0 -
https://www.efl.com/siteassets/governance-review-june-2019/regulations-season-2021-22-final.pdf
Page 180 onwards, happy reading
0 -
I doubt we even made half of £3mkillerandflash said:
But then most L1 clubs made money from transfer dealings. During 2020/21 we sold Bonne, Phillips and Doughty, that must be at least £3m.Chris_from_Sidcup said:
Ipswich made around 3m in transfer fees by selling Dozzell, Downes and Gibbs this summer, so a lot of the money they've spent on their 16 signings has actually been recouped.Cafc43v3r said:
Ipswich's approach isn't as high risk as people keep saying. For the sake of simplicity I am going to use the following assumptions.ShootersHillGuru said:
I think with their recruitment this window and with Paul Cook at the helm, Ipswich will more than likely get promoted this season, or at least let’s say have an outstanding chance. Part one of the strategy ✔️. Getting out of league one this way is one thing. Getting out of The Championship using the same strategy is quite another. Quite a few of this seasons buys and many of those remaining from before won’t cut it in The Championship. They’ll have to spend big again next season at a much greater cost with much less guaranteed success. It’s possible but if Ipswich are not in The Premier League in 24/25 then how long will the money tap be open. If and when it does close what then. Very high risk strategy.SomervilleAddick said:
That’s exactly it, as Dippenhall, it one high risk investment for the pension fund. Many funds have a high risk component. The story alway was that if 1 in 5 worked you made a profit even after writing off the other 4. It’s a bundle of cash for Ipswich, and a very small financial hit for the fund if it doesn’t work. But it not a cash stream. If they don’t succeed this year, or maybe next, the money will dry up quickly.cabbles said:
How does ORG/the pension fund make a return on its investment? I know the club could make money if they reach the Premier League, but how does that equate to an ROI for the fund? Is it going to be similar to the Glazers at Man Utd?Dippenhall said:
The pension fund has not made a direct investment in the club, it is has passed over it would seem about 0.03%, an insignificant part, of its £13bn of assets to a modest US portfolio manager ORG Portfolio Management as a small play on the market to diversify returns with a bit of risk and a higher potential return.AndyG said:
I do find this whole pension investment thing at Ipswich very interesting. I like alot of people have a SIPP and through that own some commercial property. When one of them need some maintenance the pension administrator insists I get 3 quotes for anything I spend from my SIPP. This is slightly annoying as I own a building maintenance company lol, but that is the job of a pension administrator and why I pay them their fees. How on earth has the administrator of that American fund approved investment into a football club in the uk ?Rothko said:
Exactly, very easy to spend Karen from Ohio 401k then your own moneyshine166 said:Can everyone thats saying we are obviously refusing to pay wages, at least acknowledge that TS is spending his own money, while the Ipswich owner is spending the money of others ?
It seems most of the investment will have been to acquire debt and property from Marcus Evans, so mostly fixed rate returns, and probably at tasty rates. That is the attraction for the pension fund.
The 90% equity gives ORG overall control to appoint management and give a windfall if Ipswich get promoted and justify the level of risk being taken. It does not mean there is a gravy train of cash pouring out of the pension fund. It is an arms length investment via ORG and if it goes bad it will just be one of the many small higher risk investments that statistically will go bad for the pension fund.
The pension fund will not be involved in the day to day running of the club, or writing cheques for Paul Cook, that is down to the management team. ORG is 90% shareholder but only has one representative sitting on the board. That is not the set up if you gave the club your magic porridge pot.
The management team calling the shots and spunking money on players are the 3 yanks who own "Three Lions Fund" which has a 5% investment and the CEO who is ex West Brom CEO. If it goes bad these will be the fall guys who ORG will blame for losing money for their client pension fund. ORG is not playing with its own money and it will not throw good money after bad on behalf of its client.
The idea that the pension fund is writing cheques for Paul Cook, or that he has access to an unlimited source of money is fanciful.
Paul Cook has been given the keys to the sweet shop, but when he runs out of sweets and the club is still in League 1 he will be stuffed even if the ultimate owner does have £13bn of assets.
They get the same crowds as us.
Their academy has the same over heads as ours.
Their commercial and TV revenue is the same as us.
Their nonfootball staffing costs are similar to ours.
Despite increased costs you can get a lot closer to break even in the championship.
For a club of a similar size to us a wage bill of about 8 to 10 million a year and revenue in the region of 7 million, in league 1 is about right. Once you factor in all the other costs your looking at a loss of about 9ish million. Plus or minus transfers.
That's probably, more or less, true for about 6 clubs in league 1 this season, who have owners that can cover the loss. Then you have about six more that have significantly smaller fixed costs and over heads, but significantly smaller revenue streams (crowds, commercial etc) but can still pay decent wages and top it up with player sales.
I would suggest before you start every season there are 10-12 clubs who's aim is promotion. Most won't get promoted will have to book the loss and repeat it again next year.
If you work on the basis that most 1st team players at the "big clubs" are on between 4 and 6k a week. Going "all in" and paying all your first team 10k a week would increase your wage bill by about 3 million a year. Ipswich are not paying all their first team 10k a week, or even close in most cases.
You can cover that with one good sale if you don't go up. Someone like Fraser or Pigott, for example.
The clubs who get in big trouble, generally, are the championship clubs that end up paying 30k a week plus, in some cases plus a lot, chasing the premier league.
There is a middle ground to be found in the championship, there isn't in league 1 for a club as big as us and Ipswich.1 -
Painfully quite2
-
cafcfan1990 said:
Can I just say deleting as I was so inaccurate it's crazy. Completely forgot about half that season, probably not a bad thing!ElliotCAFC said:
It would be an interesting game. On the balance of it, I think that side would edge it against the current side - although we still have a lot more building to do.JamesSeed said:
We were an average League 1 team in the Crofts/Foley era. I don’t think we’re as poor as that now. We can revisit this in a few weeks time.addick1956 said:
We are an average League 1 team .sandlerr001 said:Wigan and Ipswich have done their business early which is what we did when we’re promoted easily 10 years ago.Whilst none of us know what the budget is or who we should sign,we do know what is needed,another striker,a left back and an attacking midfielder,not to mention an experienced back up keeper.Adkins and Gallen must know this as well but whilst we don’t have them we will continue to drop points which may prove costly later.Surely with most clubs broke there have been enough good players available, so are we not smart enough or not rich enough to compete?and are we going to just be an average league 1 club instead of what we all believe,a decent Championship one.This is a big season and so far I find it worryingLet’s not forget that side included: Phillips, Aribo, Teixeira, Fox, Konsa, Grant, Lookman, Magennis, Pearce, Solly, JFC, Jay Dasilva and loads of other squad players like Chickson and Ulvestad.
Looking back it was a team worse than the sum of its parts
Despite the doom and gloom we are are million miles away from these two beautiful teams 🙄🙄
3 -
addick1956 said:
Absolutely spot on, which is why we are passing in the wind now with signings.sandlerr001 said:Wigan and Ipswich have done their business early which is what we did when we’re promoted easily 10 years ago.Whilst none of us know what the budget is or who we should sign,we do know what is needed,another striker,a left back and an attacking midfielder,not to mention an experienced back up keeper.Adkins and Gallen must know this as well but whilst we don’t have them we will continue to drop points which may prove costly later.Surely with most clubs broke there have been enough good players available, so are we not smart enough or not rich enough to compete?and are we going to just be an average league 1 club instead of what we all believe,a decent Championship one.This is a big season and so far I find it worrying
Are you saying we should spend less time passing the wind, and more time passing the ball?0
Perhaps the club wasn't big enough for the both of them 
This discussion has been closed.
