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What mess needs to be undone?
RodneyCharltonTrotta
Posts: 14,837
Keep seeing on threads about the mess of the Duchatelet and previous eras and all of the "rebuilding" that needs doing and I have probably said that myself however thinking about it today in terms of actual details and required actions to undo things or relay the foundations what are they?
We are not an overly complicated business so I am just wondering what areas are requiring attention to undo the mess of the last 10 or so years.
This is being used as a reason/ explanation for the state of the playing squad so would be insightful to learn what issues are in place and how they are being addressed.
Do we have convoluted financial liabilities that are being unwound?
This is a genuine question as a joe bloggs fan who reads this forum and just turns up on a matchday I am not aware of issues off the field beyond what I read on here. So are there issues with the academy, behind the scenes*, transfer embargoes etc that are being addressed/ need to be addressed first before we can push on (or at least maintain the standard of last season)...if so perhaps there would be more understanding.
By this I don't mean stuff like Janet in accounts can't stand the clicking noise John makes when sucking his pen....just more material issues.
Of course no one would argue that the previous clowns and crooks caused huge damage to the clubs and we know about inflated leases on flats etc but are there other off the field stuff that is holding us back too?
I can't see what they are or would be and of course a club can't reveal warts n' all but would be good to know as it may shine a light the "mess" that many are talking about as needing prolonged periods to "rebuild".
We are not an overly complicated business so I am just wondering what areas are requiring attention to undo the mess of the last 10 or so years.
This is being used as a reason/ explanation for the state of the playing squad so would be insightful to learn what issues are in place and how they are being addressed.
Do we have convoluted financial liabilities that are being unwound?
This is a genuine question as a joe bloggs fan who reads this forum and just turns up on a matchday I am not aware of issues off the field beyond what I read on here. So are there issues with the academy, behind the scenes*, transfer embargoes etc that are being addressed/ need to be addressed first before we can push on (or at least maintain the standard of last season)...if so perhaps there would be more understanding.
By this I don't mean stuff like Janet in accounts can't stand the clicking noise John makes when sucking his pen....just more material issues.
Of course no one would argue that the previous clowns and crooks caused huge damage to the clubs and we know about inflated leases on flats etc but are there other off the field stuff that is holding us back too?
I can't see what they are or would be and of course a club can't reveal warts n' all but would be good to know as it may shine a light the "mess" that many are talking about as needing prolonged periods to "rebuild".
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Comments
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We’re trying to shop in a market where we don’t have the money to buy the goods. Our transfer policy has been at best naive and at worst plain stupid. Now we’ve left it too late to change tack.6
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Have a better central midfield?1
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Yes but those are basic fundamentals that are quite easy to understand .it doesn't speak of what this legacy mess is or rebuilding that needs to be done.
What other than the transfer policy/ budget is the issue that requires repair and attention that is currently impacting the recruitment policy?
Ie are time attention and resources being allocated elsewhere on off the field matters because it is urgent they be addressed first to move the club forwards/ keep us as a going concern and this is therefore at a detriment at the playing side of things and we need to understand and accept this?
A football club is not an overly complicated business regardless of the previous decade of dysfunction comparative to many other vastly more complex businesses out there and I want to understand when people talk of undoing messes and rebuilding the club what this entails and how this translates to the current inadequate playing side of things.6 -
Hard to know for sure.
The biggest mess imo was/is the club and it's playing facilities are two different entities.
TS tried to bring the two together (of which i'm starting to have doubts seeing as it would've cost a small fortune) but failed. He said he's got the valley and SL on a longer term expensive lease to offer some security,but what happens if he can't/won't pay the rent?
I am finding it hard to fathom as to what has improved under TS so far?
Yes ESI are gone. And yes I can get membership for my pet iguana. But other than that??2 -
I think it’s more a case that we are trying to shop in a market that’s been distorted by some clubs charging in and rising expectations that player values and wages have risen across the board. As the deadline approaches we should start to see expectations become more realistic as clubs and players get a little bit more keen to secure some income. Charlton is probably seen as a club with money and resources at the moment so it’s going to natural others will think we can pay up and even more important that we don’t.ShootersHillGuru said:We’re trying to shop in a market where we don’t have the money to buy the goods. Our transfer policy has been at best naive and at worst plain stupid. Now we’ve left it too late to change tack.0 -
Stop John from sucking the pen would be a good start.
im guessing every department, playing and non playing needs investment and new bodies. Even the u-23’s have been neglected in recent years. Who do we have coming through?
everything needs work, including painting the yellow steps in all stands to filling the pt holes in the carpark
charlton as a project and not just the playing side will take a lot longer than 5 years to fix. My only gripe with Tommy is promising the unachievable2 -
It's reaching the point where the club need to make a statement or have an interview to clear some of this stuff up.0
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Above all, the psychological mess the supporters' heads are in. We just need a prolonged period of decent football. Or a shrink.6
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carly burn said:Hard to know for sure.
The biggest mess imo was/is the club and it's playing facilities are two different entities.
TS tried to bring the two together (of which i'm starting to have doubts seeing as it would've cost a small fortune) but failed. He said he's got the valley and SL on a longer term expensive lease to offer some security, but what happens if he can't/won't pay the rent?
I am finding it hard to fathom as to what has improved under TS so far?
Yes ESI are gone. And yes I can get membership for my pet iguana. But other than that??
But this was known when the club was bought. The leasing aspect would have been in and nothing has changed in that respect and that can't/ won't be undone until we get to the premier league at minimum/ events mean the grounds are sold back at a reduced price.
So that's a huge mess and one we were all uncomfortable with at the time but live with as it meant we could continue as a club. It doesn't explain any rebuild / to do list item or explain why funds would be diverted from a playing budget/ recruitment strategy would be impacted by this issue.
If anything it means that investment in the valley and SL will be on the backburner as unlikely a tenant would make (significant) capital investment in the grounds until it is wholly owned.0 -
If we can sort of the central midfield we'll get a few results and things will look alot more rosy.
Ownership of the ground would be great but that's not going to happen whilst in L1 and at least there's the security of the lease0 -
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Sangaards ego is writing cheques the squad budget cant cash.6
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I'm not so sure there has been any deviation in funds.
I go back to something Bowyer said about us dithering over a transfer during the last window.
I wonder if in the cold light of day,TS went back through what he payed to get rid of the Southall's and Elliott's and then what he's set to pay Duchatelet on a yearly basis and decided to reign in his initial projection.0 -
From my perspective as an outsider, I'd say that an issue is around years of shoestring management. For over a decade now the club has tried to do everything on the cheap, there doesn't seem to be a lot of thought given to how best to do things. When you're understaffed, your daily focus tends to be just what do we need to get by. I don't get the feeling that anyone at the club puts much effort into trying to do things better. It has the feel of an organisation stuck in a rut. The whole culture is 'that'll do'. For those of a certain vintage, you might want to think back to news reports about British Leyland in the 70s. That is exactly the feel that Charlton Athletic has to me.
I'll give you an example. We walked out of the club shop empty handed yesterday. We would have spent at least £50, maybe nearer £100, but couldn't be bothered to wait. I know they are limited for space, but they have just a couple of tills stuck in the corner with a queue going right around the outside walls (stopping anyone not in the queue from browsing). There used to be a whole line of tills, but like everything else it's been pared back. Someone (and I don't know in this case whether it's someone within the club or some outside franchisee) has viewed the service provided as a cost, and has made cut backs. That may have been a pragmatic decision to make the shop viable. The trouble is, when you do that sort of thing across a whole business, everything goes into nose dive.
I think a related issue is lack of fan engagement. I can remember in the past the club used to get lots of things done free, or at least very cheaply, by engaging the fans to help out. People will do that, if they are genuinely excited about their club and feel a part of it. That line goodwill was very quickly severed by Duchatelet and Meire. Sandgaard has the opportunity to rebuild that culture if he wants. But it will be incredibly difficult, if people don't even want to attend The Valley for matches, let alone work parties.24 -
To be an owner with the ego Sangaard has you need to deliver, or it gets really, really cringey.
Every time I hear his song, I just shudder.1 -
Leuth said:Above all, the psychological mess the supporters' heads are in. We just need a prolonged period of decent football. Or a shrink.
Agreed. Regardless of what goes on off the field 99% of fans of any club only care about what happens on saturday/ tuesday.
That's the crux of my question really...what are the off the field issues being addressed that are detracting from maintaining the squad to the level it was at last season, let alone improving on it?
If it is just a budget thing i.e. we don't have sufficient funds to maintain a squad even of the level we had last term then fair enough and that's the reality of it and we just accept our reality and get behind the team (which we always should do anyway) and accept that this is the reality herein of remaining a going concern.
Where it has been conflated was by the hyperbole from TS and NA and whilst taken with a pinch of salt there is a world of difference of talk of "that'll be us next year", "blow through the league" and "premier league in 5 years" to having a bench of untested kids and first 11 that is a couple of injuries away from inadequacy.
We are not entitled to success but I think that expecting a competitive and adequately resourced team after expectations were set that would very much be the case and we would be competitive is not unreasonable and not unreasonable that fans are now bemused.
If it's been a case of not being in a financial position to deliver beyond this then fair enough....it makes the guitar messiah stuff even more self indulgent and unnecessary and ott in my book but so be it. But if there are other things taking resource away from the playing side then it would make it more understandable.3 -
@Stig is spot on.
I think Sandgaard needs to do the whole undercover boss thing where he dons a wig and glasses and spends a few days as a paying customer away from the West stand hospitality.7 -
Stig said:From my perspective as an outsider, I'd say that an issue is around years of shoestring management. For over a decade now the club has tried to do everything on the cheap, there doesn't seem to be a lot of thought given to how best to do things. When you're understaffed, your daily focus tends to be just what do we need to get by. I don't get the feeling that anyone at the club puts much effort into trying to do things better. It has the feel of an organisation stuck in a rut. The whole culture is 'that'll do'. For those of a certain vintage, you might want to think back to news reports about British Leyland in the 70s. That is exactly the feel that Charlton Athletic has to me.
I'll give you an example. We walked out of the club shop empty handed yesterday. We would have spent at least £50, maybe nearer £100, but couldn't be bothered to wait. I know they are limited for space, but they have just a couple of tills stuck in the corner with a queue going right around the outside walls (stopping anyone not in the queue from browsing). There used to be a whole line of tills, but like everything else it's been pared back. Someone (and I don't know in this case whether it's someone within the club or some outside franchisee) has viewed the service provided as a cost, and has made cut backs. That may have been a pragmatic decision to make the shop viable. The trouble is, when you do that sort of thing across a whole business, everything goes into nose dive.
I think a related issue is lack of fan engagement. I can remember in the past the club used to get lots of things done free, or at least very cheaply, by engaging the fans to help out. People will do that, if they are genuinely excited about their club and feel a part of it. That line goodwill was very quickly severed by Duchatelet and Meire. Sandgaard has the opportunity to rebuild that culture if he wants. But it will be incredibly difficult, if people don't even want to attend The Valley for matches, let alone work parties.
Was going to say that...if there are areas and actions that need addressing where fans can help on a voluntary basis to get things back on track then as demonstrated before our fanbase would certainly help out in that respect.
Hopefully it will evolve in that respect.1 -
That's a brilliant observation about the tills. As a businessman myself I always make myself think that employing more people is not just an extra cost, but also an opportunity to expand and do things better, if you hire the right people.Stig said:From my perspective as an outsider, I'd say that an issue is around years of shoestring management. For over a decade now the club has tried to do everything on the cheap, there doesn't seem to be a lot of thought given to how best to do things. When you're understaffed, your daily focus tends to be just what do we need to get by. I don't get the feeling that anyone at the club puts much effort into trying to do things better. It has the feel of an organisation stuck in a rut. The whole culture is 'that'll do'. For those of a certain vintage, you might want to think back to news reports about British Leyland in the 70s. That is exactly the feel that Charlton Athletic has to me.
I'll give you an example. We walked out of the club shop empty handed yesterday. We would have spent at least £50, maybe nearer £100, but couldn't be bothered to wait. I know they are limited for space, but they have just a couple of tills stuck in the corner with a queue going right around the outside walls (stopping anyone not in the queue from browsing). There used to be a whole line of tills, but like everything else it's been pared back. Someone (and I don't know in this case whether it's someone within the club or some outside franchisee) has viewed the service provided as a cost, and has made cut backs. That may have been a pragmatic decision to make the shop viable. The trouble is, when you do that sort of thing across a whole business, everything goes into nose dive.
I think a related issue is lack of fan engagement. I can remember in the past the club used to get lots of things done free, or at least very cheaply, by engaging the fans to help out. People will do that, if they are genuinely excited about their club and feel a part of it. That line goodwill was very quickly severed by Duchatelet and Meire. Sandgaard has the opportunity to rebuild that culture if he wants. But it will be incredibly difficult, if people don't even want to attend The Valley for matches, let alone work parties.
The attitude towards player recruitment seems to have taken the same route. It seems to have been dominated by budget rather than numbers and quality. In any business, if you are not prepared to invest than you can not expect to compete.
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Getting away from your initial.post here I suspect Rodders but going back to the tiredness of the Valley and its surroundings. I was in the East yesterday and watching the masses queue up for the usual poor fayre in the pissing rain was as bleak as ever
I was at the Oval a couple of weeks ago. The choice.of different foods around the ground was unreal. Stalls selling foods from Curry's to Mexican.
I'm sure there would be plenty of food businesses willing to set up there mobile kitchens and serve elsewhere on the concourse. It would give more choice and free up the bar areas. Might take a bit of planning, but anyone who's been to a street food market knows they don't take up that much room.9 -
Fair point about all the legal stuff costing a fortune to sort out and get rid of the sharks and wannabes (do we yet know the cost?)
As others have said we have been run into the ground in the last 10 years (very few times in my lifetime have Charlton not been a club in crisis).
We’re paying the price for not doing good business, early on, I know it’s naff to watch (and boy have we put up with some dross!) my opinion is coming from the fact I’m still alive to be inside a football ground regardless of what’s going on, on the pitch, I’m not taking life for granted, with what’s gone on with Covid.
Couped up like a chicken for 18 months is not good for your sanity.
Small thing, please please can we instead of singing your effing #### at the players sing ‘Craig Mcgillvaray (I know the spellings iffy) instead as the geezer had a blinder yesterday, and we still got beat, says it all really.
We need to find some absolute gems, I’m not sure I buy the line of the best deals can be done in the last couple of weeks mantra though, was Steve Gallen even at our game yesterday?
We need to build up our academy with quality players, it’s what we’ve been known for down the years, Charlton is not a quick, easy fix, regardless of what comments / aspirational ideas have come from the people at the top.
Forgot to add , you do need a sense of humour following this club, otherwise they will make you ill!5 -
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To the best of my knowledge, the club shop was separate to the club. This was the case a few years ago. Not sure what the situation is now. Completely get both of your points re: the general results you see when running the club on a tight budgetSouthbank said:
That's a brilliant observation about the tills. As a businessman myself I always make myself think that employing more people is not just an extra cost, but also an opportunity to expand and do things better, if you hire the right people.Stig said:From my perspective as an outsider, I'd say that an issue is around years of shoestring management. For over a decade now the club has tried to do everything on the cheap, there doesn't seem to be a lot of thought given to how best to do things. When you're understaffed, your daily focus tends to be just what do we need to get by. I don't get the feeling that anyone at the club puts much effort into trying to do things better. It has the feel of an organisation stuck in a rut. The whole culture is 'that'll do'. For those of a certain vintage, you might want to think back to news reports about British Leyland in the 70s. That is exactly the feel that Charlton Athletic has to me.
I'll give you an example. We walked out of the club shop empty handed yesterday. We would have spent at least £50, maybe nearer £100, but couldn't be bothered to wait. I know they are limited for space, but they have just a couple of tills stuck in the corner with a queue going right around the outside walls (stopping anyone not in the queue from browsing). There used to be a whole line of tills, but like everything else it's been pared back. Someone (and I don't know in this case whether it's someone within the club or some outside franchisee) has viewed the service provided as a cost, and has made cut backs. That may have been a pragmatic decision to make the shop viable. The trouble is, when you do that sort of thing across a whole business, everything goes into nose dive.
I think a related issue is lack of fan engagement. I can remember in the past the club used to get lots of things done free, or at least very cheaply, by engaging the fans to help out. People will do that, if they are genuinely excited about their club and feel a part of it. That line goodwill was very quickly severed by Duchatelet and Meire. Sandgaard has the opportunity to rebuild that culture if he wants. But it will be incredibly difficult, if people don't even want to attend The Valley for matches, let alone work parties.
The attitude towards player recruitment seems to have taken the same route. It seems to have been dominated by budget rather than numbers and quality. In any business, if you are not prepared to invest than you can not expect to compete.0 -
It was the usual clueless and incredibly slow service in the lower north yesterday. Coupled with a very limited and unappealing selection of food and beers etc, the crowding and almost complete lack of mask wearing and I’m not going to bother buying anything at future games. The prospect of a the likely mixture of smoke and delta variant in the toilets meant I didn’t avail myself.carly burn said:Getting away from your initial.post here I suspect Rodders but going back to the tiredness of the Valley and its surroundings. I was in the East yesterday and watching the masses queue up for the usual poor fayre in the pissing rain was as bleak as ever
I was at the Oval a couple of weeks ago. The choice.of different foods around the ground was unreal. Stalls selling foods from Curry's to Mexican.
I'm sure there would be plenty of food businesses willing to set up there mobile kitchens and serve elsewhere on the concourse. It would give more choice and free up the bar areas. Might take a bit of planning, but anyone who's been to a street food market knows they don't take up that much room.
It was good to be back however!0 -
Perfectly written. In all aspects of the club we need to invest in the infrastructure and staff. Playing and non playing staff. Will hugely increase the running costs which will lead to TS running bigger loss, but at some point the cut backs by RD needs to be reversed. The plan might be to do this in the championship, I dont know at all.Stig said:From my perspective as an outsider, I'd say that an issue is around years of shoestring management. For over a decade now the club has tried to do everything on the cheap, there doesn't seem to be a lot of thought given to how best to do things. When you're understaffed, your daily focus tends to be just what do we need to get by. I don't get the feeling that anyone at the club puts much effort into trying to do things better. It has the feel of an organisation stuck in a rut. The whole culture is 'that'll do'. For those of a certain vintage, you might want to think back to news reports about British Leyland in the 70s. That is exactly the feel that Charlton Athletic has to me.
I'll give you an example. We walked out of the club shop empty handed yesterday. We would have spent at least £50, maybe nearer £100, but couldn't be bothered to wait. I know they are limited for space, but they have just a couple of tills stuck in the corner with a queue going right around the outside walls (stopping anyone not in the queue from browsing). There used to be a whole line of tills, but like everything else it's been pared back. Someone (and I don't know in this case whether it's someone within the club or some outside franchisee) has viewed the service provided as a cost, and has made cut backs. That may have been a pragmatic decision to make the shop viable. The trouble is, when you do that sort of thing across a whole business, everything goes into nose dive.
I think a related issue is lack of fan engagement. I can remember in the past the club used to get lots of things done free, or at least very cheaply, by engaging the fans to help out. People will do that, if they are genuinely excited about their club and feel a part of it. That line goodwill was very quickly severed by Duchatelet and Meire. Sandgaard has the opportunity to rebuild that culture if he wants. But it will be incredibly difficult, if people don't even want to attend The Valley for matches, let alone work parties.0 -
If it is correct that Sandgaard is now beginning to realise the cost implications of his (publicly-stated) lofty ambitions ... here's the most worrying thing:
Getting out of League 1 is the cheap bit.
Any five/seven year plans of getting to the top level will have significant total cost. But by far the biggest slice of that total cost will come at Championship level. You don't get promoted to the Premier League by spending peanuts on transfer fees and wages.
It is possible, however, to get out of League 1 for 'a few million' ... and we're clearly struggling to do that.
So, if cost is what it's all about now, we seem to be falling at the first (quite low) hurdle. And that tells me that Sandgaard went into this with very poor/inaccurate project cost estimates.
Where might this advice have come from?1 -
Are there still legal wrangles that TS is having to deal with ? Has Elliot walked away or is he still trying to get something out of TS ? I do find it strange that there is markedly no connection with the ambitions and bravado shown just a few months ago and the reality we are seeing now. Something doesn’t feel right to me at least.1
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These are really good questions @RodneyCharltonTrotta. I've got zero insights to offer. Two people whe would have, are @Airman Brown and @nth_london_addick (although i suspect they'd disagree with each other if they both pitch up here).
One straw in the wind is Charlton TV. The speed with which Thomas and co. came in and professionalised that, so that it's apparently pretty much best in class within the EFL, was another thing that kind of set expectations high. I thought, wow, this looks like a serious commercial revolution has started. But since then nothing seems to have happened in other areas, and a lot of enthusiastic but inexperienced people have come in and made elementary mistakes. The whole attempt to develop the international fanbase, on the back of the streaming, is a case in point, but I won't elaborate as its a niche area, and there's dialogue behind the scenes.
I think the question of whether TS has the right senior person he can delegate to, is part of it. I don't blame TS for wanting to be de facto CEO for a while. But then it means that inevitably he gets bogged down in operational issues, from long distance, and dealing with a backroom team that has not been invested in for years. There are only so many hours in a day, and he's learning about a completely new business sector.5 -
I think CATV is brilliant I also think the move to YouTube for the prematch show was obvious but a very good decision. I nearly booked a last minute flight to my holiday home to buy the stream, and I may well do in future regardless of the quality past 3pm.
The significant investment in 1st year pros contracts are a positive, even if you don't agree with all of them.
Other things such as coaching pathways, restructuring the coaching set up, making the women's team professional, membership schemes, international fans etc etc are, on there own positive things to do. So is "improving the player identification" capability.
However if we are in league 1 it's all bloody pointless. The pool of players we can realistically sign is so small I would expect Gallen, Adkins and maybe 2 staff to be able to reel them off off the top of their head.
At the end of the day it's a football club, one that is not viable in league 1 regardless of all the positivity, wishful thinking and wanting it to be.
Get it right on the pitch, for the men's first team, first. Then start fixing everything else.
No one, well some always will, would moan about pot holes, chips, or even more significant matters if we were sat top of league 1 with 12 points.
We appear to have fixed the roof, which wasn't really broken yet ignored the fact the foundations have failed and the whole house is about to fall down.
TLDR: A lot needs fixing but in the right order.
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It’s rare that a business/football club can high perform unless all the hidden parts are working well. Currently we are seeing the non football parts aren’t working very well and the football side is weak. I’m not sure, in the long term, which needs fixing first. But I can cope with poor football if I believe that the club is working hard to put right all of the non performing sectors.
I’m not sure about Sandgaard, I’ve always been suspicious of flamboyance in leadership roles. He reminds me of Knighton.1 -
I got a burger in the ground yesterday because the queue for the van outside was huge and it was without doubt the worst burger I've ever had in my life. I don't even want to think about how much it cost.carly burn said:Getting away from your initial.post here I suspect Rodders but going back to the tiredness of the Valley and its surroundings. I was in the East yesterday and watching the masses queue up for the usual poor fayre in the pissing rain was as bleak as ever
I was at the Oval a couple of weeks ago. The choice.of different foods around the ground was unreal. Stalls selling foods from Curry's to Mexican.
I'm sure there would be plenty of food businesses willing to set up there mobile kitchens and serve elsewhere on the concourse. It would give more choice and free up the bar areas. Might take a bit of planning, but anyone who's been to a street food market knows they don't take up that much room.
Maybe I'm in a minority but if the food was even decent I would probably get something every game but I'll go elsewhere from now on. Against Wednesday I bought a pint at half time and they were waiting to pour until you'd ordered, I couldn't believe my eyes. And why do they need two crap lagers on anyway.
Apart from the kids reading the line ups out (which you can't hear anyway because the sound system is about 30 years old) the actual match day experience is really shit.0 -
To be honest, I don’t see any way you can improve the commercial revenues of this club other than by negligible amounts. Happy to be told otherwise0
