The Dangers of a Cashless Society.

Think of the brasses too

i've hardly used cash for 18 months except for window cleaner, haircuts and then to my surpise yesterday in a Wethersrspoons, where apparently machines weren't working. Almost lucky I still had some!!

How much of “legacy banks” offering is mortgages? Can’t imagine they’ll be screwed for a very long time.

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Going back to the original question - I think that if you're on a reasonable salary, with the same amount paid into your account every month and a fair bit of disposable, going cashless is not going to be any great shakes for you. But, if you're a self employed contractor, unemployed, or just sail a bit close to the wind financially, you're going to have your own novel ways of keeping track of what you're spending. I personally keep an Excel spread sheet so can project it going forward and, more often than not, using debit cards is not a problem, but if I'm waiting to be paid for a job and it's getting a bit tight, the easiest way I find to make sure you live within your means, is to draw cash. I'm also sometimes paid in full in cash. It don't help living in the middle of nowhere, that the 3 nearest petrol stations have done away with the cashiers in the both though

Addickted said:

stevexreeve said:

charltonkeston said:

ShootersHillGuru said:

NapaAddick said:

Government uses the excuse that getting rid of cash will stop drug dealers and criminals. What a croc. It's just their excuse to force inflation on people by not giving them any ways to opt out of a currency and also to keep tabs on them and what they spend. Not a surprise that in tandem with this awful idea is another wheeze to have currency that depreciates to zero after a fixed time so that people have to spend it. God forbid people save money. Most Western governments are not horrified at how China tracks people, they are envious of it.

I agree. The thought that Priti Patel and Boris Johnson are watching my weekly movements between Sainsbury’s and Screwfix terrifies me. Recently I’ve been using Asda and Toolstation in order to throw them off the scent. This conspiracy bollox really makes me laugh. Mobile phones have been able to be used to track our movements for years. Surveillance cameras and ANPR as well. I really couldn’t give a monkeys whether the government have any interest in my movements or spending habits. I live a completely average and mundane if not quite boring life. I am of no interest to anyone and neither are 99.999999999999999% of everyone else.

I agree but how would you feel if your everyday well documented life was sold on to a third party? The tories have a reputation for selling anything that isn’t nailed down. We already get bombarded with adverts from our internet activity it will only get worse when this mob see an opportunity to make a money.
Or even worse all this stored data gets leaked or handed on a plate to less than straight players?
That said cash is no longer king so I think we better get used to it.  

Or wore still the data is hacked and ends up in the hands of terror organisations or "strange" overseas governments.

I'm sort of hoping we didn't leave any computers with the equivalent of "remember me" set lying around in Kabul!

Can't really see the Taliban give a shit whether I buy my toilet paper from Tescos or Sainsbury's.  Or whether its two or three ply.

You might if your card doesn’t work when you’re caught short. 

iaitch said:

You'll need six ply if they come knocking on your door.

Built a small Mosque in the front garden just in case. And the Missus is petitioning M&S to start a small range of Burqas for the larger lady.

kentaddick said:

Off_it said:

kentaddick said:

Off_it said:

kentaddick said:

Just wait until defi banks start becoming a thing and traditional banks are utterly fucked. 

Of course they're not "fucked"!

They might lose a bit of market share, maybe for a bit or maybe permanently, but if you think people having instant knowledge of how much (or how little) they have in their accounts, or having a jazzy App that tells them they have no money, is going to make that much difference is incredibly naive.

Look at the energy market. So many new players, new apps and new innovations (e.g. my supplier pays interest on any credits on your account), but how many people are still unquestioningly with British Gas for absolutely no reason whatsever?

if you could choose between 0.5% interest rates and 5% interest rates on savings, which would you choose? The high street bank is dying, Barclays and Santander have packed up near me. Like blockbusters, they had their opportunity to move with the times and never took it. 

Are you asking me or asking Joe Public?

There's always a "better deal" out there. Who can forget the Icelandic banks offering great interest rates (before they went bust) and I even remember a Nigerian bank offering to top those at the time (and all this century, before you ask!)

But the fact is that people stay with what they know, be that banks, energy companies or the brand of beans they buy. It's well understood and proven. It's human nature.

That's why "legacy banks" don't try as hard as new disrupter brands, because they don't need to. Yes, some will eventually fall by the wayside, but the rest will adapt before they make themselves obsolete - its' the way things have always been.

At the end of the day new shiny apps and great customer service isn't going to make a blind bit of difference to 80% of banking customers. 

Edit: and just because high street branches are closing doesn't mean the banks are "dying". Barclays make fuck all out of their branches anyway and would probably close most of those left in a heartbeat if they thought they could get away with it.

If they don’t have a decent app, and have shit customer service and are closing all their branches then they really are fucked.

nobody I know my age carries cash anymore. Whenever I need to lend or borrow odd bits from a mate or pay for a taxi/dinner I just monzo the money, so much easier than going through a horribly slow app and getting a fucking pin sentry out. 

By the end the only people using legacy banks will be old people, who are then unable to go into a branch and talk to some one if they have an issue. The legacy banks will probably then pivot to being more of a building society/investment company. 

I don't see the legacy banks going anywhere soon. How good are Monzo or Starling's Mortgages and ISA's etc and have they made any money yet or still haemorrhaging it?

The legacies are catching up with the likes of those two on the APP basis, my guess is within 5 years one of the above won't be around (as will have been bought out).

Each has their place, but I've known a lot more people come away from the start ups due to issues then permanently leaving a legacy bank.

As for customer service, In my experience Starling were awful, not any quicker and very few knew what they were talking about as predominantly scripted.

Isn't a binary thing 

I dont feel comfortable not carrying cash, barbers hardly ever have card machines, and why would they when they are laundering the stuff, not to mention tipping people. I decided years ago that relying on a credit or bedit card when out on the piss was lethal, and it was. Anyone who was at Wycombe away in 2010 will confirm the landlord had to refill his cash point to satisfy me and some of the others' appetite for that that pub offers. So a game in the promotion season, can't remember which but I'd gone and got 100 quid out to cover me for the day and promptly put the cash in my backpocket, at some point my hand or someone else's went in my back pocket and either dropped the days cash on the floor or lifted it. Either way, that wouldn't have happened if I was only using a card. Also, you need to be switched on to ensure barstaff aren't playing fast and loose with their maths, been short changed by more than a couple of quid in the Royal Oak before now and in the ground. If I'm tapping and apping I can see what is leaving my account. 

Cash is king for tipping, no two ways about that, instant jackpot tickets, voice of the Valley, kebab after the game, taxi home from station and then emptying pockets into the coin jars that pay for stuff over time

If at a gig, football, my local, or a busy food retailer, cash free is so much quicker and better. 

Space for both, as technology and security for cash free improves I'll move with it. No longer am I rolling my eyes in the co-op when someone asks to pay by card for their milk and bread, so maybe one day I'll be paying for my ketamine, MDMA and weed via tapping my mobile phone 

cafcfan said:

I can't speak for the US but I can tell you that, outside of genuine issues of life and death, the authorities cannot simply ring up the bank and get a complete break down of anyone's transaction history. A certain amount of info maybe, perhaps to confirm intel that a suspect uses a particular pub at a particular time, but in general an order from the Crown Court will be required to access an individuals full account. Access is also restricted to properly accredited Financial Investigators not your average bobby.

NapaAddick said:

cafcfan said:

I can't speak for the US but I can tell you that, outside of genuine issues of life and death, the authorities cannot simply ring up the bank and get a complete break down of anyone's transaction history. A certain amount of info maybe, perhaps to confirm intel that a suspect uses a particular pub at a particular time, but in general an order from the Crown Court will be required to access an individuals full account. Access is also restricted to properly accredited Financial Investigators not your average bobby.

Two assumptions in your point are that...

1. Governments don't easily get access anyway, regardless if they have the right to or not.

2. That having banks being able to see everything we spend is somehow acceptable.

We know already via Edward Snowden that the government (including Britain) routinely break the law to listen to phone conversations, use our cell phones to track our location, etc. Given this, the idea they don't follow our money seems terribly naive, especially given banks have government financial backing built into their very existence. Also, I am not sure whether banks having all that knowledge might not even be.... worse.

If you’re not breaking the law, why do you care? 

bobmunro said:

cafcfan said:

Bournemouth Addick said:

ShootersHillGuru said:

NapaAddick said:

Government uses the excuse that getting rid of cash will stop drug dealers and criminals. What a croc. It's just their excuse to force inflation on people by not giving them any ways to opt out of a currency and also to keep tabs on them and what they spend. Not a surprise that in tandem with this awful idea is another wheeze to have currency that depreciates to zero after a fixed time so that people have to spend it. God forbid people save money. Most Western governments are not horrified at how China tracks people, they are envious of it.

I agree. The thought that Priti Patel and Boris Johnson are watching my weekly movements between Sainsbury’s and Screwfix terrifies me. Recently I’ve been using Asda and Toolstation in order to throw them off the scent. This conspiracy bollox really makes me laugh. Mobile phones have been able to be used to track our movements for years. Surveillance cameras and ANPR as well. I really couldn’t give a monkeys whether the government have any interest in my movements or spending habits. I live a completely average and mundane if not quite boring life. I am of no interest to anyone and neither are 99.999999999999999% of everyone else.

I can't speak for the US but I can tell you that, outside of genuine issues of life and death, the authorities cannot simply ring up the bank and get a complete break down of anyone's transaction history. A certain amount of info maybe, perhaps to confirm intel that a suspect uses a particular pub at a particular time, but in general an order from the Crown Court will be required to access an individuals full account.

Access is also restricted to properly accredited Financial Investigators not your average bobby. 

Perhaps but for what it's worth the FCA has the power to require production of bank account data. The appointed investigator just issues a notice to the bank, auditor, whoever. Answers come back very quickly. I am pretty sure the Customs bit of HMRC has the same powers (not sure about the Revenue guys). They do, though, need a court order to freeze an account.

https://www.thp.co.uk/can-hmrc-check-your-private-bank-account-yes-and-it-could-become-normal/

Thank you - an interesting read. Especially the plans for the future. Could it work in practice though? Credits to a bank account will not tell HMRC whether the money is taxable or not. It could be interest, dividend receipts or capital from an ISA or a dividend from a VCT or EIS, for example. I am far from convinced that the HMRC has the competency to make any of that work without total chaos ensuing.

AFKABartram said:

kentaddick said:

Off_it said:

kentaddick said:

Off_it said:

kentaddick said:

Just wait until defi banks start becoming a thing and traditional banks are utterly fucked. 

Of course they're not "fucked"!

They might lose a bit of market share, maybe for a bit or maybe permanently, but if you think people having instant knowledge of how much (or how little) they have in their accounts, or having a jazzy App that tells them they have no money, is going to make that much difference is incredibly naive.

Look at the energy market. So many new players, new apps and new innovations (e.g. my supplier pays interest on any credits on your account), but how many people are still unquestioningly with British Gas for absolutely no reason whatsever?

if you could choose between 0.5% interest rates and 5% interest rates on savings, which would you choose? The high street bank is dying, Barclays and Santander have packed up near me. Like blockbusters, they had their opportunity to move with the times and never took it. 

Are you asking me or asking Joe Public?

There's always a "better deal" out there. Who can forget the Icelandic banks offering great interest rates (before they went bust) and I even remember a Nigerian bank offering to top those at the time (and all this century, before you ask!)

But the fact is that people stay with what they know, be that banks, energy companies or the brand of beans they buy. It's well understood and proven. It's human nature.

That's why "legacy banks" don't try as hard as new disrupter brands, because they don't need to. Yes, some will eventually fall by the wayside, but the rest will adapt before they make themselves obsolete - its' the way things have always been.

At the end of the day new shiny apps and great customer service isn't going to make a blind bit of difference to 80% of banking customers. 

Edit: and just because high street branches are closing doesn't mean the banks are "dying". Barclays make fuck all out of their branches anyway and would probably close most of those left in a heartbeat if they thought they could get away with it.

If they don’t have a decent app, and have shit customer service and are closing all their branches then they really are fucked.

nobody I know my age carries cash anymore. Whenever I need to lend or borrow odd bits from a mate or pay for a taxi/dinner I just monzo the money, so much easier than going through a horribly slow app and getting a fucking pin sentry out. 

By the end the only people using legacy banks will be old people, who are then unable to go into a branch and talk to some one if they have an issue. The legacy banks will probably then pivot to being more of a building society/investment company. 

I think you’re looking at two ends of the spectrum and not accounting for a great number of us that sit somewhere in the middle. 

I’m in my 40s, don’t have a banking app, notifications etc just a current account and savings account (at basically zero) and an isa with a legacy bank. I look online at the account maybe once, twice a month max just to scan through the outs and to see if we’re overdrawn (normally). I’ve been in a branch once in ten years and contacted customer service once in about five years. Wouldn’t know how to make an online transfer to someone so would ask my wife to do that. Like Off It’s example of British Gas never swapped banks or chased a better interest account etc. 

Ive never been a money-centric person but it’s quite an eye opener reading this thread just how much interest people take in their banking. I know nothing about any of these new banks, new apps, new functionality etc and suspect there’s many that are similar.

Personally I think it’s something that can mentally be a bit unhealthy to overthink. Some people seem to get a bit obsessive about their money. I’ve always been relatively sensible with money but don’t really think any further than as long as the bills are paid and im planning for anything on the short or medium term horizon (like a future holiday) then that’s pretty much it. Perhaps I need to adapt more. 

Definitely think though I’m spending more cashless than I was only using cash, so may consider ditching the card for a bit. 

Totaly agree. One of my Mrs freinds is just that, to the point where she told me she (apparently) took a £10k(?) UK government small business grant during the pandemic, and bought £10k worth of premium bonds with it because she didn't actually need the cash.