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Wayne Rooney's Derby County - not any more (p41)
Comments
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But they don't own their stadium, do they?
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Thomas managed to takeover a football club in that time,golfaddick said:
Quite.SporadicAddick said:
All the fault of the EFL and Coronavirus apparently - nothing to do with them.Addickted said:
They blame Covid as they couldn't hold face to face meetings with prospective purchasers. What crap. Even in lockdown business people were allowed to travel & no one was held prisoner in their homes.
And blaming the EFL for investigating transgressions that were of Derby's own making.2 -
From what I can gather no they don't, it is owned my MSD holdings who have lent lots of clubs money during the pandemic. I think they did own it outright at what point but clearly through mis-management have ended up selling the family silver.aliwibble said:But they don't own their stadium, do they?
But I think the point being made by Maguire was whoever takes over the club is going to find a way of getting the stadium, whether they buy it outright or rent it, it's still a pretty modern stadium with decent capacity. Derby are a one city club and I don't see any owners buying the club and not finding a way of still playing at Pride Park.2 -
Loads of saleable assets, Training bibs, cones, chairs, knives & forks, pube-follicle re-insertion kits…..the usualgolfaddick said:Have they done this as they know that they have transgressed so much that they were likely to incur MORE than a 12 point deduction from the EFL (very unlikely imo) and si they thought that they would "get in there first".
Also, what debts do they have. I thought the pount of administration was that the admusteatirs were brought in to sell assets to pay off debts.....usually a step or 2 before bankruptcy. What "assets" do Derby have that they can sell ?? Especially as the transfer window doesnt open for another 3+ months1 -
Interesting to see the valuation on the stadium if new owners do buy it back. Gives a bit of a yardstick for Thomas and The Valley.0
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Sick of their bollocks, should've long been relegated so if they finally get a decent points deduction it's been coming for a very long time9
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It should give the EFL a chance to set a precedent by giving them a 12 point deduction for the financial irregularities as they are getting relegated anyway.jams said:Sick of their bollocks, should've long been relegated so if they finally get a decent points deduction it's been coming for a very long time0 -
Earlier Sky were talking about a double points deduction. 12 for going into administration & also 9 for the financial irregularities. Still cant see it myself.jams said:Sick of their bollocks, should've long been relegated so if they finally get a decent points deduction it's been coming for a very long time1 -
May as get it over and done with in the same season. The last thing they will want is two separate points deductions over two seasons.6
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Yeah i think the same, i feel like they know that with the 9 point deduction coming they're doomed to league one anyway so why not just go into administration and get it all over and done with.Addickted said:May as get it over and done with in the same season. The last thing they will want is two separate points deductions over two seasons.
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Didn’t Leeds do this many years ago and still got a points deduction the following season?Chris_from_Sidcup said:
Yeah i think the same, i feel like they know that with the 9 point deduction coming they're doomed to league one anyway so why not just go into administration and get it all over and done with.Addickted said:May as get it over and done with in the same season. The last thing they will want is two separate points deductions over two seasons.1 -
Yeah i think that was different though. I'm sure there were some issues around their CVA so they got done again.guinnessaddick said:
Didn’t Leeds do this many years ago and still got a points deduction the following season?Chris_from_Sidcup said:
Yeah i think the same, i feel like they know that with the 9 point deduction coming they're doomed to league one anyway so why not just go into administration and get it all over and done with.Addickted said:May as get it over and done with in the same season. The last thing they will want is two separate points deductions over two seasons.
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We’ll see, doubt the land values are at all comparable. From visiting a few times when we’ve played there I recall that Pride Park is rather out of the way on a commercial/retail estate type area in a part of the country where the average house price is £4.75. They do have a nearby Harvester though which will increase the asking price for the stadium somewhat.TelMc32 said:Interesting to see the valuation on the stadium if new owners do buy it back. Gives a bit of a yardstick for Thomas and The Valley.1 -
To be fair Leeds did it at half time on the final day.guinnessaddick said:
Didn’t Leeds do this many years ago and still got a points deduction the following season?Chris_from_Sidcup said:
Yeah i think the same, i feel like they know that with the 9 point deduction coming they're doomed to league one anyway so why not just go into administration and get it all over and done with.Addickted said:May as get it over and done with in the same season. The last thing they will want is two separate points deductions over two seasons.
Edit the CVA issues were for coming out of administration without any.1 -
I thought the deal was that Derby sold their stadium to Mel Morris their owner for a ludicrous £80m. If he still owns it, then it's in "friendly" hands0
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The easy way out .. Admin and 12 points only means they are 4 points away from safely shocking should have been punished last season like Sheff Wed year before … these teams are getting away with breaking rules …… does anyone think we would be treated the same by EFL0
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RonnieMoore said:The easy way out .. Admin and 12 points only means they are 4 points away from safely shocking should have been punished last season like Sheff Wed year before … these teams are getting away with breaking rules …… does anyone think we would be treated the same by EFL
It is part the EFL rules isn’t it (that they can delay)?0 -
Usually its a case that they'll wait and see if the club stays up regardless before issuing the deduction.JustFloydRoad said:RonnieMoore said:The easy way out .. Admin and 12 points only means they are 4 points away from safely shocking should have been punished last season like Sheff Wed year before … these teams are getting away with breaking rules …… does anyone think we would be treated the same by EFL
It is part the EFL rules isn’t it (that they can delay)?
e.g. Wigan didnt get their points deduction straight away as had they got relegated on their own, their deduction would have taken place last season, instead of finishing mid-table and being relegated with us... Of course had they been more than 12-pts from safety then they still would have had the deduction in 2019/20, they just would have survived, ironically had Bonne not scored that last minute goal then they would have survived.
Would they do that at such an early stage of the current season though?0 -
They are on 7 points, 2 points above Blackpool. 12 points deducted will leave them 10 from safety.RonnieMoore said:The easy way out .. Admin and 12 points only means they are 4 points away from safely shocking should have been punished last season like Sheff Wed year before … these teams are getting away with breaking rules …… does anyone think we would be treated the same by EFL0 -
I think that's correct however they have subsequently taken a loan out with MSD Holdings who own a charge on the stadium, now they've entered administration MSD are entitled to any proceeds from the sale of the stadium to cover their debt. I think I also heard that in theory MSD could now purchase the stadium at a knock down price given they are owed money on it and then just rent out the asset to whoever takes over.killerandflash said:I thought the deal was that Derby sold their stadium to Mel Morris their owner for a ludicrous £80m. If he still owns it, then it's in "friendly" hands
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Part of me suspects that this a negotiation tactic, but I hope not. There is no doubt in my mind that the Club deserves to be relegated. They may have been cleared with regard to the ‘sale’ of their ground, but it left a nasty taste in the mouth as fans knew that they were twisting the rules to try and cheat their way into the Premiership.RonnieMoore said:The easy way out .. Admin and 12 points only means they are 4 points away from safely shocking should have been punished last season like Sheff Wed year before … these teams are getting away with breaking rules …… does anyone think we would be treated the same by EFL
And that cheating has continued over the entire ownership of their super rich ‘fan’ and the other wealthy board members. They have not run out of money, they are fed up with throwing it away. I hate to guess what other Derby fans think of him now, as they have now been cheated themselves.
I hope Derby break the record for points deducted and that they get another 12 points deducted for their other financial scams. There is no way that they should be allowed to escape relegation.
My sympathise go to their fans and the traders that will get knocked by this, and one can only hope that better football regulation gets sorted soon.1 -
I remember reading an article in the year Leicester were on their way to winning the Premier League. A local businessman had to shut his family business when Leicester went into administration as they owed up him about 200k. I think in the end he got offered something pathetic like 20% of that and couldn't absorb the costs.Redrobo said:RonnieMoore said:The easy way out .. Admin and 12 points only means they are 4 points away from safely shocking should have been punished last season like Sheff Wed year before … these teams are getting away with breaking rules …… does anyone think we would be treated the same by EFL
My sympathise go to their fans and the traders that will get knocked by this, and one can only hope that better football regulation gets sorted soon.
Him and his family were Leicester supporters all their life and his business had been supplying the club for years. He couldn't find the stomach to get excited about their title run given how shabbily he had been treated, and quite rightly. Not only was he robbed of his family business through no fault of his own he was robbed of the opportunity to celebrate a once in a lifetime event for a club he had supported all his life.
I remember thinking about that man when they won the Premier League, I can't recall what it was exactly, either cars or watches, but the chairman went out and bought every single player something to the tune of about 100k each I think it was and how a lot of businesses probably went under for a fraction of that amount.
I'm not saying the new owners of Leicester had any obligation to service old debts from years before they bought the club, but listening to the radio today all the talk is about Derby County the institution as opposed to the many staff and businesses who are going to be waking up this morning not giving a damn about the football club and actually wondering if there'll be paid at the end of the month.
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On the plus side the Directors of Derby should be OK.Notts_Addick said:
I remember reading an article in the year Leicester were on their way to winning the Premier League. A local businessman had to shut his family business when Leicester went into administration as they owed up him about 200k. I think in the end he got offered something pathetic like 20% of that and couldn't absorb the costs.Redrobo said:RonnieMoore said:The easy way out .. Admin and 12 points only means they are 4 points away from safely shocking should have been punished last season like Sheff Wed year before … these teams are getting away with breaking rules …… does anyone think we would be treated the same by EFL
My sympathise go to their fans and the traders that will get knocked by this, and one can only hope that better football regulation gets sorted soon.
Him and his family were Leicester supporters all their life and his business had been supplying the club for years. He couldn't find the stomach to get excited about their title run given how shabbily he had been treated, and quite rightly. Not only was he robbed of his family business through no fault of his own he was robbed of the opportunity to celebrate a once in a lifetime event for a club he had supported all his life.
I remember thinking about that man when they won the Premier League, I can't recall what it was exactly, either cars or watches, but the chairman went out and bought every single player something to the tune of about 100k each I think it was and how a lot of businesses probably went under for a fraction of that amount.
I'm not saying the new owners of Leicester had any obligation to service old debts from years before they bought the club, but listening to the radio today all the talk is about Derby County the institution as opposed to the many staff and businesses who are going to be waking up this morning not giving a damn about the football club and actually wondering if there'll be paid at the end of the month.0 -
When Ipswich went into admin, they were paying 6p in the pound.Notts_Addick said:
I remember reading an article in the year Leicester were on their way to winning the Premier League. A local businessman had to shut his family business when Leicester went into administration as they owed up him about 200k. I think in the end he got offered something pathetic like 20% of that and couldn't absorb the costs.Redrobo said:RonnieMoore said:The easy way out .. Admin and 12 points only means they are 4 points away from safely shocking should have been punished last season like Sheff Wed year before … these teams are getting away with breaking rules …… does anyone think we would be treated the same by EFL
My sympathise go to their fans and the traders that will get knocked by this, and one can only hope that better football regulation gets sorted soon.0 -
It’s really quite straightforward in my opinion. Make the penalties for financial irregularities and cheating as instant as possible and draconian. No negotiations with the offending club.5
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They'll have to go some to catch Luton. They were deducted 10 points one season for going into admin and then the next season they were deducted 30.Redrobo said:
Part of me suspects that this a negotiation tactic, but I hope not. There is no doubt in my mind that the Club deserves to be relegated. They may have been cleared with regard to the ‘sale’ of their ground, but it left a nasty taste in the mouth as fans knew that they were twisting the rules to try and cheat their way into the Premiership.RonnieMoore said:The easy way out .. Admin and 12 points only means they are 4 points away from safely shocking should have been punished last season like Sheff Wed year before … these teams are getting away with breaking rules …… does anyone think we would be treated the same by EFL
And that cheating has continued over the entire ownership of their super rich ‘fan’ and the other wealthy board members. They have not run out of money, they are fed up with throwing it away. I hate to guess what other Derby fans think of him now, as they have now been cheated themselves.
I hope Derby break the record for points deducted and that they get another 12 points deducted for their other financial scams. There is no way that they should be allowed to escape relegation.
My sympathise go to their fans and the traders that will get knocked by this, and one can only hope that better football regulation gets sorted soon.
Not surprisingly they went down both seasons, league one to the National league.3 -
I don't disagree but you have got to prove it. Most of the irregularities are basically accounting methods to pass FFP. If these were done to avoid tax it would take nearly 10 years to exhaust all the possible appeals. The EFL don't have the powers of discovery or the resource and expertise, nor can they retrospectively change the law, like HMRC can/has.ShootersHillGuru said:It’s really quite straightforward in my opinion. Make the penalties for financial irregularities and cheating as instant as possible and draconian. No negotiations with the offending club.
The one change that would stop all this nonsense is to say you can spend as much as you like but it has to be in equity, not loans, from the owner/investers.4 -
That’s a very fair point. My only response is that if and when the irregularities are proven, even if that’s years from the start of the irregularity occurring and even under different ownership, then the penalty should not involve points deductions negotiable with the club but automatic relegation two divisions. Any business can fail without irregularities and of course that needs to be recognised but it’s the shenanigans Derby and others have been engaged in that has to be completely stopped.Cafc43v3r said:
I don't disagree but you have got to prove it. Most of the irregularities are basically accounting methods to pass FFP. If these were done to avoid tax it would take nearly 10 years to exhaust all the possible appeals. The EFL don't have the powers of discovery or the resource and expertise, nor can they retrospectively change the law, like HMRC can/has.ShootersHillGuru said:It’s really quite straightforward in my opinion. Make the penalties for financial irregularities and cheating as instant as possible and draconian. No negotiations with the offending club.
The one change that would stop all this nonsense is to say you can spend as much as you like but it has to be in equity, not loans, from the owner/investers.1 -
But that's the point, they can't prove them without the cooperation of the club. They don't have anyway of doing it.ShootersHillGuru said:
That’s a very fair point. My only response is that if and when the irregularities are proven, even if that’s years from the start of the irregularity occurring and even under different ownership, then the penalty should not involve points deductions negotiable with the club but automatic relegation two divisions. Any business can fail without irregularities and of course that needs to be recognised but it’s the shenanigans Derby and others have been engaged in that has to be completely stopped.Cafc43v3r said:
I don't disagree but you have got to prove it. Most of the irregularities are basically accounting methods to pass FFP. If these were done to avoid tax it would take nearly 10 years to exhaust all the possible appeals. The EFL don't have the powers of discovery or the resource and expertise, nor can they retrospectively change the law, like HMRC can/has.ShootersHillGuru said:It’s really quite straightforward in my opinion. Make the penalties for financial irregularities and cheating as instant as possible and draconian. No negotiations with the offending club.
The one change that would stop all this nonsense is to say you can spend as much as you like but it has to be in equity, not loans, from the owner/investers.
They can't prove it beyond reasonable doubt, nor the lower threshold of civil law, without negotiating. The only leverage they have is on a quip pro quo basis else the whole thing would be tied up in the courts, with a massive back log, for years.
If you waited until it was proven who would you actually be punishing?0 -
Could this mean players available cheap in January?
I know it's a bit like vultures at a dead carcass... But we could do with a few January signings to strengthen our squad further.2
