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P&O sack/make redundant 800 staff on the spot
Comments
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Can they though ? Do they have the right to do it ? Not suggesting morally they should not do it but does the framework allow it?Chizz said:
The government can relieve the owners of the burden of ownership of P&O, rehire the staff and run the business until a more suitable owner comes along.valleynick66 said:So in conclusion are we saying that this is a commercial decision only by P&O and that Brexit has made no difference to the laws seemingly breached by them?
Im not clear what the government can actually legally do to mitigate the selfish actions of P&O management.Seems they (P & O) may simply have taken advice that this can be done at x cost and will try and ride out the repetitional damage.Says all you need to know about those individuals if true. Sadly doubt a boycott of the company will emerge.0 -
No I don't think we are saying that at all. Thy have certainly breached what many of us thought was the law. It was of course a commercial decision but the jury is still very much out about whether this decision was made easier because of Brexit or not.valleynick66 said:So in conclusion are we saying that this is a commercial decision only by P&O and that Brexit has made no difference to the laws seemingly breached by them?
Im not clear what he government can actually legally do to mitigate the selfish actions of P&O management.Seems they (P & O) may simply have taken advice that this can be done at x cost and will try and ride out the repetitional damage.Says all you need to know about those individuals if true. Sadly doubt a boycott of the company will emerge.0 -
Employment law has not changed in any substantial way since Brexit - yet! What P&O did was possible before and after Brexit.Cordoban Addick said:
No I don't think we are saying that at all. Thy have certainly breached what many of us thought was the law. It was of course a commercial decision but the jury is still very much out about whether this decision was made easier because of Brexit or not.valleynick66 said:So in conclusion are we saying that this is a commercial decision only by P&O and that Brexit has made no difference to the laws seemingly breached by them?
Im not clear what he government can actually legally do to mitigate the selfish actions of P&O management.Seems they (P & O) may simply have taken advice that this can be done at x cost and will try and ride out the repetitional damage.Says all you need to know about those individuals if true. Sadly doubt a boycott of the company will emerge.
This is civil law, the consequences of breaching it are financial, and as such you are correct that it was a commercial decision, albeit a decision that goes against any form of natural justice.5 -
Surely p&o need a licence to operate ferries which can simply be revoked1
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I think a time has come and if it hasn't it is coming where we have a responsibility. There are alternatives to P&O and we need to apply standards to companies we use. That is ultimately how their behaviours will be changed.
We travel a fair bit and have used P&O in the past. Never again.3 -
UK governments have stepped in and nationalised LNER in 2018, Northern Trains (2020), Wales & Borders (2020), Southeastern (2021), ScotRail Trains (this year). Northern Rock was nationalised in 2008.valleynick66 said:
Can they though ? Do they have the right to do it ? Not suggesting morally they should not do it but does the framework allow it?Chizz said:
The government can relieve the owners of the burden of ownership of P&O, rehire the staff and run the business until a more suitable owner comes along.valleynick66 said:So in conclusion are we saying that this is a commercial decision only by P&O and that Brexit has made no difference to the laws seemingly breached by them?
Im not clear what the government can actually legally do to mitigate the selfish actions of P&O management.Seems they (P & O) may simply have taken advice that this can be done at x cost and will try and ride out the repetitional damage.Says all you need to know about those individuals if true. Sadly doubt a boycott of the company will emerge.
There is ample precedent. And, as for the framework, there are probably many avenues the government could take, from suspending the Tier 2 boat master's licence or nullifying MGN 203 (M) Crew training qualifications, to determining whether there's a loophole in the National Security and Investment Act 2021 that enables them to intervene.
The point is, if there's a legal means for the UK government to step in and nationalise P&O, I think they should do so. And if there isn't one, they should introduce emergency legislation to do so.
Allowing this to go ahead gives the green light to the worst, most excessive, harmful practices of vulture capitalism.9 -
I don't think this has anything to do with Brexit but everything to do with a company taking a view on commercially what they deem is right for them, including knowing full well they are breaking the law and what those consequences may be, will all have been factored in to their overall 'plan' and costings, sadly it also includes sh1ting on their in the main very loyal staff in the process.. I hate to burst some bubbles but this goes on every single day.......
I don't know employment law or commercial law inside out, but I'll be very surprised if this government has any teeth to do anything of any help or magnitude, all we'll here is words.
This may be a large headline story, predominantly due to the numbers involved and being a well known company, but as above this happens every day, my last company (and actually the one before) definitely 'got rid of' more than 20 people, except the majority weren't badged as redundancy and compromise agreements were made, offered and signed. Often waving a big fat cheque and package at someone gets around the rules, especially when said person knows they are getting multiples of what they would if they went to court.1 -
I note the bastard giving the workers the message they had lost their jobs by a video message sounded British. Who is he?0
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If this had happened to French workers,I am pretty sure the unions would have brought all the ferry services to a halt,blockaded ports etc.no sign of any such support from those ferry companies not affected.Thought unionism was about supporting your brothers.2
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Great to see the UK Government 'taking back control' LOL
Sadly we have nothing to 'take back control' of. Most of our infrastructure was sold off to the 'highest bidder' years ago. From the Dartford Tunnel to Heathrow Airport it's all foreign owned. Even our CO2 supply is owned by the Americans.
Brexit is relevant in this because people fall for this nonsense of 'taking back control' The P&O debacle clearly shows there is no control.
All those that voted Brexit this is actually what you voted for. There are a group of MPs within the Tory Party that want to 'unshackle' business from EU Labour laws that protect workers rights and move us more in line with American Labour Laws.
So those who voted Brexit and are bleating about P&O laying off 800 British Workers. It's a little ironic.
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@usetobunkin Whilst it might need a bit of historical context, I think your brother can rest easy.usetobunkin said:My eldest brother was 2nd Engineer on the Chusan and the Himmalya, the £10 POM boats. He was P&O through and through, even risked his life fighting the fire on the Canberra in the 60s. He died a few years ago.... HE TONIGHT IS SPINNING IN HIS GRAVE..., PENINSULA AND ORIENTAL STEAM COMPANY, was everything to him. Sad so sad.
The company that has acted appallingly is P&O Ferries. Until 1987 they were called Townsend Thoresen. Through various sales and mergers and circumstances, they acquired the P&O name.
The company that your brother worked for is now P&O Cruises, which was formed in 1840 and which, of course, still operates today, with cruise ships around the world, but based in Southampton.
P&O Cruises is a wholly owned subsidiary of Carnival Corporation, a Miami based company.
P&O Ferries is a wholly owned subsidiary of DP World, a Dubai based company.
The two companies have absolutely no connection, but through the process of historical merger and acquisition, they both happen to share part of a name and run businesses that operate ships on water.
So, if he were alive today, your brother could still be proud to have worked for P&O Cruises.9 -
At my work email almost became the only link between management and staff leading to major problems when it became clear that staff 'on the road' didn't always have time to look at, let alone answer, the copious emails that arrived each day.stop_shouting said:
Good. In the days of flexible working, how could this even be possible now. Implementing something like that now would take us back years and pretty much discriminate against working mums.Chunes said:
Disagree that we led the way in the EU on that. Our workers rights are nothing compared to France. They continue to lead the way. For example, 'The Right to Disconnect' and not be contactable via email outside of working hours, something implemented there in 2017 and still not even mentioned over here.Billy_Mix said:
It's worse than that, this government is actively pursuing the elimination of workers' rights.hoof_it_up_to_benty said:
The Government doesn't give a shit about employment rights - it's the British way.Addick Addict said:This is absolutely shocking behaviour and totally illegal. No consultation. No warning. No nothing. It also sets a precedent and if the Government does not take immediate action then it will open the floodgates for other unscrupulous companies to do exactly the same thing.
The British way has been to establish and enshrine workers' rights. Until the political calumny and witless self-harm of the brexit vote, GB's employment rights were among the strongest and most encompassing of all the world's leading economies. In most areas, our regulations and rights led the way in the EU, not the other way around.
I was quite shocked talking to a pregnant French colleague once about the benefits she'd get if she went on maternity leave in France.
But I do remember EU regulations kicking in on the health and safety front that at least meant you were entitled to take a break after a certain number of hours driving, and that you couldn't be rostered to work crazy hours without reasonable breaks in between shifts. We'd had crews falling asleep at the wheel on a couple of occasions, so at least in theory, the likelihood of that happening was reduced.
In practice many of these 'rules' were ignored to keep the show on the road as it were, but at least crews had the option of a break if they really needed one. Of course if one or two people regularly started taking more breaks than others they might find themselves not being offered the plum assignments, but overall it was generally felt that our working conditions were greatly improved.
I think those in government who claimed that leaving the EU meant we could now *improve* working conditions should be (but won't be) held to account.5 -
But it’s not really Brexit related.lonman said:Great to see the UK Government 'taking back control' LOL
Sadly we have nothing to 'take back control' of. Most of our infrastructure was sold off to the 'highest bidder' years ago. From the Dartford Tunnel to Heathrow Airport it's all foreign owned. Even our CO2 supply is owned by the Americans.
Brexit is relevant in this because people fall for this nonsense of 'taking back control' The P&O debacle clearly shows there is no control.
All those that voted Brexit this is actually what you voted for. There are a group of MPs within the Tory Party that want to 'unshackle' business from EU Labour laws that protect workers rights and move us more in line with American Labour Laws.
So those who voted Brexit and are bleating about P&O laying off 800 British Workers. It's a little ironic.If employment laws are unchanged since we were in the EU then P&O would be no less able to go this route if we had stayed
As a company they are behaving in a reprehensible way. Pushing the limits of the law of indeed breaking it for financial reasons alone. They they have proceeded without engaging with government first.I hope the government can step in and take or force some actions but it’s not to do with Brexit.You are speculating labour laws may in future become less favourable for workers. That hasn’t happened to date. Nor have I really seen much suggestion it will.3 -
Except that they only targeted British workers because their European employees are protected by EU legislation.bobmunro said:
?seth plum said:When the UK was in the EU it made the rules and was not dictated to by the rules.
UK employment law has been massively influenced by the EU:
- Written Statement of Terms and Conditions
- Working Time Regulations - maximum working week, rest breaks, minimum paid holidays
- Health & Safety enhanced protections
- Maternity and Paternity rights
- Protection for part-time and agency workers
- Emergency leave for dependants
- Discrimination protection
I could go on.
EU membership overwhelmingly improved worker's rights - that's got to be a good thing (and I say that as an HR Director!).
Much of the legislation was negative though - if you were an unscrupulous employer.
That said, what P&O did yesterday has nothing to do with the EU or Brexit.0 -
It was pure speculation on my part. However, there were whisperings of following a "Singapore on Thames" model, that a lot of Brexit voters were all over. If that were to happen these kind of actions by Employers would be far more common.valleynick66 said:
But it’s not really Brexit related.lonman said:Great to see the UK Government 'taking back control' LOL
Sadly we have nothing to 'take back control' of. Most of our infrastructure was sold off to the 'highest bidder' years ago. From the Dartford Tunnel to Heathrow Airport it's all foreign owned. Even our CO2 supply is owned by the Americans.
Brexit is relevant in this because people fall for this nonsense of 'taking back control' The P&O debacle clearly shows there is no control.
All those that voted Brexit this is actually what you voted for. There are a group of MPs within the Tory Party that want to 'unshackle' business from EU Labour laws that protect workers rights and move us more in line with American Labour Laws.
So those who voted Brexit and are bleating about P&O laying off 800 British Workers. It's a little ironic.If employment laws are unchanged since we were in the EU then P&O would be no less able to go this route if we had stayed
As a company they are behaving in a reprehensible way. Pushing the limits of the law of indeed breaking it for financial reasons alone. They they have proceeded without engaging with government first.I hope the government can step in and take or force some actions but it’s not to do with Brexit.You are speculating labour laws may in future become less favourable for workers. That hasn’t happened to date. Nor have I really seen much suggestion it will.
The infrastructure of the country being Foreign Owned makes the notion of 'taking back control' totally laughable yet people still believe Boris is doing just that.
I don't want to turn this thread political so I'll leave it here.0 -
I would add, that all this talk of Boycotting P&O. It will never happen. If we were French their boats would probably be in protective custody now. Rest assured P&O will put out a cheap deal and 90% of the Brits murmuring and complaining will be falling over themselves to get a cheap deal. That's guaranteed4
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Send in whats left of the Navy and torpedo them!lonman said:I would add, that all this talk of Boycotting P&O. It will never happen. If we were French there boats would probably be in protective custody now. Rest assured P&O will put out a cheap deal and 90% of the Brits murmuring and complaining will be falling over themselves to get a cheap deal. That's guaranteed0 -
As @bobmunro said earlier, they could have done this while we were still in the EU. Its French and Dutch law that protects workers there. Our rulers don't believe we deserve the sort of protections that French workers have. And aspire that we have as few rights as American workersCardinal Sin said:
Except that they only targeted British workers because their European employees are protected by EU legislation.bobmunro said:
?seth plum said:When the UK was in the EU it made the rules and was not dictated to by the rules.
UK employment law has been massively influenced by the EU:
- Written Statement of Terms and Conditions
- Working Time Regulations - maximum working week, rest breaks, minimum paid holidays
- Health & Safety enhanced protections
- Maternity and Paternity rights
- Protection for part-time and agency workers
- Emergency leave for dependants
- Discrimination protection
I could go on.
EU membership overwhelmingly improved worker's rights - that's got to be a good thing (and I say that as an HR Director!).
Much of the legislation was negative though - if you were an unscrupulous employer.
That said, what P&O did yesterday has nothing to do with the EU or Brexit.5 -
There was a bill put forward to protect workers from fire and rehire in October 2021 and it was talked down by the Government. I think the Government spokesman said the part of the bill that would have protected the P&O staff was fine but other elements of it could not be accepted but he failed to say what other elements. He said the Government was doing something and when pushed that doing something seemed to be no more than 'looking at it'. That should be reassuring for those sacked in this callous way.
Why does a Government talk a bill down? In the case of this Government to stop it going through as there would be Conservatives who support it.4 -
100% this.rananegra said:
As @bobmunro said earlier, they could have done this while we were still in the EU. Its French and Dutch law that protects workers there. Our rulers don't believe we deserve the sort of protections that French workers have. And aspire that we have as few rights as American workersCardinal Sin said:
Except that they only targeted British workers because their European employees are protected by EU legislation.bobmunro said:
?seth plum said:When the UK was in the EU it made the rules and was not dictated to by the rules.
UK employment law has been massively influenced by the EU:
- Written Statement of Terms and Conditions
- Working Time Regulations - maximum working week, rest breaks, minimum paid holidays
- Health & Safety enhanced protections
- Maternity and Paternity rights
- Protection for part-time and agency workers
- Emergency leave for dependants
- Discrimination protection
I could go on.
EU membership overwhelmingly improved worker's rights - that's got to be a good thing (and I say that as an HR Director!).
Much of the legislation was negative though - if you were an unscrupulous employer.
That said, what P&O did yesterday has nothing to do with the EU or Brexit.I know a fair bit about French, Dutch, German, and Maltese employment law and worker protection is far stricter - some based in EU law but most in the nations’ laws - so much for the claim that we couldn’t make our own laws.
I also know a fair bit about US employment law and yes, that’s the way we are heading.6 - Sponsored links:
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Took the words out of my mouth mate. Suckers fell for the bullshit.bobmunro said:
100% this.rananegra said:
As @bobmunro said earlier, they could have done this while we were still in the EU. Its French and Dutch law that protects workers there. Our rulers don't believe we deserve the sort of protections that French workers have. And aspire that we have as few rights as American workersCardinal Sin said:
Except that they only targeted British workers because their European employees are protected by EU legislation.bobmunro said:
?seth plum said:When the UK was in the EU it made the rules and was not dictated to by the rules.
UK employment law has been massively influenced by the EU:
- Written Statement of Terms and Conditions
- Working Time Regulations - maximum working week, rest breaks, minimum paid holidays
- Health & Safety enhanced protections
- Maternity and Paternity rights
- Protection for part-time and agency workers
- Emergency leave for dependants
- Discrimination protection
I could go on.
EU membership overwhelmingly improved worker's rights - that's got to be a good thing (and I say that as an HR Director!).
Much of the legislation was negative though - if you were an unscrupulous employer.
That said, what P&O did yesterday has nothing to do with the EU or Brexit.I know a fair bit about French, Dutch, German, and Maltese employment law and worker protection is far stricter - some based in EU law but most in the nations’ laws - so much for the claim that we couldn’t make our own laws.
I also know a fair bit about US employment law and yes, that’s the way we are heading.5 -
But the thing was always nobody knew what specific EU laws they were opposed too, apart from made up ones when really pushed.2
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If employers can easily sack people now, and worry about the consequences later, then presumably that attitude can spread to every free market capitalist.
If employers are serious about treating workers according to the law (even as far as the weak and unsatisfactory laws that exist) then that is an aspect of socialism.
The country had a choice between those two general approaches, and elected free market people.
In the absence of legal protections I would expect more and more industrial action as one of the few things that can resist the nasty aspects free market capitalism.
This elected government is unlikely to be on the side of the everyday working person given their track record.0 -
I saw a programme recently, sorry I can't pinpoint where, but an interesting point made was the difference between how corrupt Russian politicians enrich themselves compared to corrupt British ones. The point was the Russian ones enrich themselves whilst in office and the British ones when they come out of office where they are rewarded for the favours they have done.0
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Apparently their replacements are on £1.80 an hour.0
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Turns out Schapps knew ‘redundancies’ were going to happen in advance of last Thursday.
He goes on about it being terrible, but did nothing to intervene because his excuse is he didn’t know what the numbers or method of sacking would be.
Now ‘get Brexit done’ government people are all crocodile tears left right and centre over this.
More government lies and double think and double standards, quelle surprise Rodney.
It leaves 800 people desperate and scared where (get this) in order to get the paltry pay off they have to sign a non disclosure agreement first.
P&O’s ‘free market’ approach sits well with the approach of this Britannia Unchained government who knew in advance what would happen and simply shrugged at the time.
Yes crocodile tear hypocrisy given form by Dover MP Natalie Elphick’s appearance with the hostile RMT protestors because she ‘fights for the people of Dover’.2 -
Another Charlton Life Classic.0
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Amazing how people’s loyalties are so entrenched that they can’t even call this out as a bad thing. Sad really.9
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Stalker alert.0
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I think the people with entrenched loyalties might be the same dozen or so who manage to turn literally any issue happening in the UK into a Brexit/Tory issue. It's boring.JamesSeed said:Amazing how people’s loyalties are so entrenched that they can’t even call this out as a bad thing. Sad really.
Haven't seen anyone saying this isn't a bad thing by the way, but feel free to quote the posts that do :-)8
