POST—MATCH THREAD: Morecambe V Charlton Athletic | Tuesday 14th March 2023: KO 19.45pm

Chunes said:

Garrymanilow said:

Dazzler21 said:

FishCostaFortune said:

m_2 said:

Ryan Innis: captain in second half. 99 minutes of excellent centre half dominance. One mistake all night . . .

Come on you Innis haters, credit where it is due!

But that’s the issue for me. Does not matter as a defender if you’re excellent for 99 minutes, due to where you are on the pitch your mistakes are going to be punished more so than others.

His mistake was on the halfway line, we had enough players back that we should have been able to deal with it. If we're 1-0 up and he does that fair enough but at 3-0 I can see why you might try something clever. He was unfortunate that he backheeled it into his own foot (somehow)

That Daniel Crowley would be worth a look at. I thought he looked threatening all game, quick, tricky, good balance. 

I do find it interesting that when Inniss is involved any kind of wider analysis seems to go out the window. Our biggest issue isn't that Inniss gifts goals, it's that when someone makes a mistake every other player seems to collapse in unison and the opposition walk the ball into the net. If you properly look at Morecambe's goal last night it's a litany of errors.

Clare pushes very far forward, well into the opposition half. He doesn't win the ball, gets done and then doesn't get his recovery tackle right. Inniss steps way out and tries a silly backheel that doesn't come off. At this point two of our back four have gone walkabout so Hector has to come across. Instead of showing the attacker down the line to allow people to get back, Hector shows him inside, dangles a lazy leg at the ball and never gets near the player again. Thomas bless him has now had to move from left back to RCB. His position actually isn't bad, he's taken up an intelligent enough spot but he needs help from his winger to cover the left back spot, which Campbell realises far too late and then gives up on part way through realising. The shot that comes in isn't very good but AMB dives like he's made of pixels and fails to get near a fairly tame shot. Inniss is part of that but I don't know how people are tearing their hair out over his contribution, other than the fact it's fairly weird and unnecessary from him. There were still three pieces of poor team play, positioning and reading of the game by our players after that and oen before it; if your centre back makes a mistake by the halfway line and right next to the byline and you concede from it, it's taken a team effort to let the opposition score. Players make mistakes all the time, moreso as you go down the leagues. What we need to work on is our players' ability to reshuffle and not go to pieces of the back of these errors as we don't seem to be able to react at all, and we're always going to make mistakes so it's a pretty important skill.

This is harsh analysis G-man. From Innis's clanger to the ball being in the net, just seven seconds pass by. To Morecambe's credit they broke with incredible speed and made the most of the chance. Man City's defence would've struggled to react there. None of that happens without Innis once again being a plonker. 

I wish we'd stop normalising a CB who regularly gives goals and chances to the opposition.

See, that just makes no sense to me. If it's harsh on the others then it's harsh on Inniss too. Clare makes three small mistakes in quick succession to start it off. He pushes forward to try and get round the opposition player and doesn't get there. Fine, not a big deal, except then he gets very easily turned. Less good. Then he misses his tackle, which was a hard one to make anyway but he's so easily beaten before that. He creates the problem to start with. Inniss steps forward, makes a mistake. Then Hector steps forward, makes a mistake. Campbell is asleep, as players often are, and then AMB lets a soft shot in. From Clare's mistake to the goal it's 8 seconds, why not go from there? They're all complicit in an opposition goal, I'm not normalising his mistake, I'm trying to normalise analysing an entire section of play and noting that multiple moments can lead to a goal and that for a team more capable there's opportunities to negate an error. We don't do that, we compound them. Instead though, people are just focusing on Inniss and hand-waving away the fact that we allowed a team to score from having the ball in their half because no-one put in a challenge, covered the space or did their job. It's bonkers to me that people can complain that excuses are being made for Inniss in the process of making excuses for others in order to have a go at the individual because it's easier.

FishCostaFortune said:

Garrymanilow said:

FishCostaFortune said:

Dazzler21 said:

FishCostaFortune said:

m_2 said:

Ryan Innis: captain in second half. 99 minutes of excellent centre half dominance. One mistake all night . . .

Come on you Innis haters, credit where it is due!

But that’s the issue for me. Does not matter as a defender if you’re excellent for 99 minutes, due to where you are on the pitch your mistakes are going to be punished more so than others.

His mistake was on the halfway line, we had enough players back that we should have been able to deal with it. If we're 1-0 up and he does that fair enough but at 3-0 I can see why you might try something clever. 

That Daniel Crowley would be worth a look at. I thought he looked threatening all game, quick, tricky, good balance. 

It was near the half way line, just after our RB had been beaten on the byline and Inniss was not in his CB position as he had gone over to cover the move.

I have no issue him doing this, in fact that is good defending to read the game and do that, but to make then mistake he did when he is then out of position is poor. And as you can see from the highlights we didn't have enough people back and Morecambe were easily able to move into the space left vacant by Inniss.

Big screenshot of players positions immediately after he lost the ball.

Not quite, that screenshot is a little late. This is the position immediately after Inniss loses the ball:

Hector has to come across but he's there to intercept. He gets it wrong, shows the player inside and goes to sit in the crowd for a bit. Your screenshot comes after Hector has wafted his leg at the ball and made his own error and that's why he's now wrong side

My screenshot was in reply to Dazzler saying we had enough players back, and had nothing to do with where Hector was positioned or how he defended the situation. We didn't have enough players back, that much is clear from the screenshot, in which is effectively a 2 v 2 with a big open spaces to exploit.

Of course there are potential other opportunities to have maybe broken the attack down, from Clare not winning the ball, to where Thomas and Hector positioned themselves, to Campbell getting goal side. But
ultimately Inniss had the easiest job out of any of them. Speak to any defender and I imagine they will tell you how difficult it is to defend space like that, when you have players and the ball moving at pace from a turnover.

Really don't understand the discourse to try and make excuses for him here. He was a monster for the rest of the game, but this was really really poor - and it's not the first time he made a mistake like this which has cost us.

Your clarification doesn't change anything though. We did have enough players back to deal with it if Hector had done his part properly. He gets it so, so wrong. All he has to do is show the player down the line, basic stuff, but he shows him in while taking himself out of the game. We don't have enough players back in your screenshot because one has run off, much like Inniss did. Two errors. We add them to the ones before and after. I think it says a lot that you think excuses are being made for him; there's no point where I've done that, I've noted his error ('Inniss steps way out and tries a silly backheel that doesn't come off. At this point two of our back four have gone walkabout'), I've just also not allowed myself to ignore the other errors because I want to give grief to one individual over others. There are 5 individual errors there. Campbell's isn't awful, it's one where a young player has to learn to read danger and react to it quickly. He'll learn, especially if he watched someone like Dobson. AMB's is pretty bad, he's got his feet wrong and let a soft goal in. Inniss's is the silliest, it's the most avoidable, but it's still an error amongst errors and if just one of the three players who didn't do their job after that had reacted then it would have been something to point and laugh at later rather than a goal. Pointing out that there's a lot of errors isn't making excuses, it's acknowledging that we have an issue with collapsing when something unexpected happens, which is a pretty serious failing in a team. But if it's easier we can just ignore other people's errors and yell at one player. Whichever.

Garrymanilow said:

FishCostaFortune said:

Garrymanilow said:

FishCostaFortune said:

Dazzler21 said:

FishCostaFortune said:

m_2 said:

Ryan Innis: captain in second half. 99 minutes of excellent centre half dominance. One mistake all night . . .

Come on you Innis haters, credit where it is due!

But that’s the issue for me. Does not matter as a defender if you’re excellent for 99 minutes, due to where you are on the pitch your mistakes are going to be punished more so than others.

His mistake was on the halfway line, we had enough players back that we should have been able to deal with it. If we're 1-0 up and he does that fair enough but at 3-0 I can see why you might try something clever. 

That Daniel Crowley would be worth a look at. I thought he looked threatening all game, quick, tricky, good balance. 

It was near the half way line, just after our RB had been beaten on the byline and Inniss was not in his CB position as he had gone over to cover the move.

I have no issue him doing this, in fact that is good defending to read the game and do that, but to make then mistake he did when he is then out of position is poor. And as you can see from the highlights we didn't have enough people back and Morecambe were easily able to move into the space left vacant by Inniss.

Big screenshot of players positions immediately after he lost the ball.

Not quite, that screenshot is a little late. This is the position immediately after Inniss loses the ball:

Hector has to come across but he's there to intercept. He gets it wrong, shows the player inside and goes to sit in the crowd for a bit. Your screenshot comes after Hector has wafted his leg at the ball and made his own error and that's why he's now wrong side

My screenshot was in reply to Dazzler saying we had enough players back, and had nothing to do with where Hector was positioned or how he defended the situation. We didn't have enough players back, that much is clear from the screenshot, in which is effectively a 2 v 2 with a big open spaces to exploit.

Of course there are potential other opportunities to have maybe broken the attack down, from Clare not winning the ball, to where Thomas and Hector positioned themselves, to Campbell getting goal side. But
ultimately Inniss had the easiest job out of any of them. Speak to any defender and I imagine they will tell you how difficult it is to defend space like that, when you have players and the ball moving at pace from a turnover.

Really don't understand the discourse to try and make excuses for him here. He was a monster for the rest of the game, but this was really really poor - and it's not the first time he made a mistake like this which has cost us.

Your clarification doesn't change anything though. We did have enough players back to deal with it if Hector had done his part properly. He gets it so, so wrong. All he has to do is show the player down the line, basic stuff, but he shows him in while taking himself out of the game. We don't have enough players back in your screenshot because one has run off, much like Inniss did. Two errors. We add them to the ones before and after. I think it says a lot that you think excuses are being made for him; there's no point where I've done that, I've noted his error ('Inniss steps way out and tries a silly backheel that doesn't come off. At this point two of our back four have gone walkabout'), I've just also not allowed myself to ignore the other errors because I want to give grief to one individual over others. There are 5 individual errors there. Campbell's isn't awful, it's one where a young player has to learn to read danger and react to it quickly. He'll learn, especially if he watched someone like Dobson. AMB's is pretty bad, he's got his feet wrong and let a soft goal in. Inniss's is the silliest, it's the most avoidable, but it's still an error amongst errors and if just one of the three players who didn't do their job after that had reacted then it would have been something to point and laugh at later rather than a goal. Pointing out that there's a lot of errors isn't making excuses, it's acknowledging that we have an issue with collapsing when something unexpected happens, which is a pretty serious failing in a team. But if it's easier we can just ignore other people's errors and yell at one player. Whichever.

cafc_se7 said:

What annoys me is we have brought Hector in for others to ‘learn from’. Inniss is obviously not teachable. There was a time in the first half where Hector was under pressure and had no other option but to play the ball out of touch to regalvanise. Inniss has a carbon copy in the second half…tries a stupid back flick to nobody and we concede! 

We were 3 up at the time though. Had it been nil nil or one nil I’d have been annoyed. 

Garrymanilow said:

FishCostaFortune said:

Garrymanilow said:

FishCostaFortune said:

Dazzler21 said:

FishCostaFortune said:

m_2 said:

Ryan Innis: captain in second half. 99 minutes of excellent centre half dominance. One mistake all night . . .

Come on you Innis haters, credit where it is due!

But that’s the issue for me. Does not matter as a defender if you’re excellent for 99 minutes, due to where you are on the pitch your mistakes are going to be punished more so than others.

His mistake was on the halfway line, we had enough players back that we should have been able to deal with it. If we're 1-0 up and he does that fair enough but at 3-0 I can see why you might try something clever. 

That Daniel Crowley would be worth a look at. I thought he looked threatening all game, quick, tricky, good balance. 

It was near the half way line, just after our RB had been beaten on the byline and Inniss was not in his CB position as he had gone over to cover the move.

I have no issue him doing this, in fact that is good defending to read the game and do that, but to make then mistake he did when he is then out of position is poor. And as you can see from the highlights we didn't have enough people back and Morecambe were easily able to move into the space left vacant by Inniss.

Big screenshot of players positions immediately after he lost the ball.

Not quite, that screenshot is a little late. This is the position immediately after Inniss loses the ball:

Hector has to come across but he's there to intercept. He gets it wrong, shows the player inside and goes to sit in the crowd for a bit. Your screenshot comes after Hector has wafted his leg at the ball and made his own error and that's why he's now wrong side

My screenshot was in reply to Dazzler saying we had enough players back, and had nothing to do with where Hector was positioned or how he defended the situation. We didn't have enough players back, that much is clear from the screenshot, in which is effectively a 2 v 2 with a big open spaces to exploit.

Of course there are potential other opportunities to have maybe broken the attack down, from Clare not winning the ball, to where Thomas and Hector positioned themselves, to Campbell getting goal side. But
ultimately Inniss had the easiest job out of any of them. Speak to any defender and I imagine they will tell you how difficult it is to defend space like that, when you have players and the ball moving at pace from a turnover.

Really don't understand the discourse to try and make excuses for him here. He was a monster for the rest of the game, but this was really really poor - and it's not the first time he made a mistake like this which has cost us.

Your clarification doesn't change anything though. We did have enough players back to deal with it if Hector had done his part properly. He gets it so, so wrong. All he has to do is show the player down the line, basic stuff, but he shows him in while taking himself out of the game. We don't have enough players back in your screenshot because one has run off, much like Inniss did. Two errors. We add them to the ones before and after. I think it says a lot that you think excuses are being made for him; there's no point where I've done that, I've noted his error ('Inniss steps way out and tries a silly backheel that doesn't come off. At this point two of our back four have gone walkabout'), I've just also not allowed myself to ignore the other errors because I want to give grief to one individual over others. There are 5 individual errors there. Campbell's isn't awful, it's one where a young player has to learn to read danger and react to it quickly. He'll learn, especially if he watched someone like Dobson. AMB's is pretty bad, he's got his feet wrong and let a soft goal in. Inniss's is the silliest, it's the most avoidable, but it's still an error amongst errors and if just one of the three players who didn't do their job after that had reacted then it would have been something to point and laugh at later rather than a goal. Pointing out that there's a lot of errors isn't making excuses, it's acknowledging that we have an issue with collapsing when something unexpected happens, which is a pretty serious failing in a team. But if it's easier we can just ignore other people's errors and yell at one player. Whichever.

Gary, I often agree with your posts, but this is errortastic!

One backheel tried that didn't come off. Right on the line and near the half way line in a 4-1 away win and very good performance and some people want to keep banging on about it?  Really?

Chunes said:

Maybe it's a symptom of the fact results don't really matter at this point. If they did, and we were on the edge of the play-offs, I've got a funny feeling that Innis gifting goals wouldn't be as acceptable. 

Ho hum, onwards and... Onwards!

Yeah, but if we were 1-0 up and chasing a play off spot, he might have elected to blast the ball into touch. All ifs and buts but ceratainly a possibility as he's been a lot more inclined to do that lately.

Inniss held his hand up because he made a poor decision in not just putting the ball out.
Forget the inquest on that goal and just take some pleasure in winning 4-1 away and not being "dog shit". 

The Fraser goal was excellent play between MOTM Clare, Fraser and Rak Sakyi. *
Best team goal of the season. Sessegnon goal against Accrington and Clare against Plymouth were great strikes.

It's important for Dean Holden that we win matches even if some of our fans/critics don't care as we are a mid table team.

I believe we should go to Cambridge and win away again despite they can't be as bad as Morecambe were last night.

* Sorry Albie I forgot you were involved as well !

MuttleyCAFC said:

With CBTs first goal, he said he felt the ball on his leg so you have to give him the benefit and the goal.

Should wear some underwear then ......

@m_2 I can only assume there's a good reason that you're taking a very civil discussion about Innis so personally. So given that, and what you've said on the previous page, I won't be engaging with you. 

JamesSeed said:

Chunes said:

ken_shabby said:

Chunes said:

Maybe it's a symptom of the fact results don't really matter at this point. If they did, and we were on the edge of the play-offs, I've got a funny feeling that Innis gifting goals wouldn't be as acceptable. 

Ho hum, onwards and... Onwards!

Yeah, but if we were 1-0 up and chasing a play off spot, he might have elected to blast the ball into touch. All ifs and buts but ceratainly a possibility as he's been a lot more inclined to do that lately.

Yeah I get that but it's not just this isolated incident, he's been gifting goals and chances all season. Now it can be met with a shrug because it doesn't really matter. 

He’s had his moments, sure, but I think you’re exaggerating a tad. All CB’s mess up from time, and he’s probably not that much worse than the average?

It's a fair question and one I've asked myself. Does he mess up more than than the average. 

If we compare him to other L1 CBs we've had in recent years, did they gift goals like he does? And we're not talking about losing your man, we're talking solid gaffs. 

Jason Pearce - I can only remember one backwards header that didn't reach the keeper. So one in a season?

Fameweo - A bad pass at AFC Wimbledon. One in a season?

Oshilaja - Not a very good defender but can't remember any solid gaffs, might be wrong. 

And now if we compare that to Innis, he's directly been the cause of four goals in three months. Not even a season. Two against Bristol Rovers, one against Bolton and another yesterday. 

Again, I might be wrong, but I don't think the average L1 CB is doing that.

Besides, of those four goals, I'd say Inniss was only fully responsible for one, vs Rovers. The other Rovers one was a bit unlucky (how often does a clearance smack off someone's head into a perfect through-ball) and the Bolton one was a tricky clearance that was compounded by others. But sure, to some degree he did screw up for all four. Your analysis of Pearce, Famewo and Oshilaja is.....incomplete, let's put it that way 

When you see someone digging a hole . . . Just let them keep on digging