England Cricket 2024

killerandflash said:

Anyway, I'm sure we can all agree that we want Crawley to be rubbish tonight 

And brilliant on Thursday. 

England unchanged for the 2nd Test

killerandflash said:

killerandflash said:

It would be a massive ask anyway, a player flying direct from London to NZ, and playing immediately. Keeping for 6 hours with that jetlag would be horrendous!

The real issue is England not picking a backup keeper, and picking 3 spinners instead. OR if they genuinely think Pope is their No 2 keeper, to not then pick someone like Bracey who's more local at the moment. Billings was called up in the last Ashes as he was in Australia at the time.

I wondered about this last week. Was Robinson the replacement keeper, or just backup to Pope. In which case, flying someone to the other side of the world at short notice doesn't seem very sensible.

We should never have gone out there without a proper backup keeper but I'm pretty sure that he was flown out there with a view to him playing in the second Test. It's just that innings of Bethell's and the win meant that they couldn't drop him. If Bethell does do well again, then the chances are they will keep the same team for the final Test which will be gutting for both Ollie, his friends and his dad, especially, who is in mid-air right now. The fathers of former Kent keepers might both be cursed in that respect. Should Bethell fail in both innings then he might well play in the third Test because there is absolutely no doubt that Smith will be back in the summer and the management will have to take that decision to drop him, Pope or even Crawley (and allow Bethell to open) at that time anyway. 
  

killerandflash said:

NZ is the sort of place where a part time keeper like Pope is probably "good enough". Mainly seam bowlers, and not baking hot either. In terms of keeping pedigree, he's no worse than Smith anyway.

Keeping in India or Sri Lanka for 6.5 hours to spinners under a baking sun would require someone better.

Try telling that to Bashir if and when Pope misses a stumping or drops a catch standing up. We probably won the last Test because NZ dropped so many including a regimental catch standing back by Blundell. Missing one on a surface that isn't a bunsen burner can catch those out that aren't used to keeping on a regular basis because the mind isn't trained to doing the job for long periods of time whatever the conditions.

Both Buttler and Bairstow suffered in that respect given neither did it for their county. Pope is fourth choice at Surrey, Cox is third choice at Essex. We've been playing lip service to keeping for years, had an opportunity to play a proper one in Robinson (one that has had a strike rate of over 80 in county cricket in the last two season so fits the Bazball modus operandi) but took the soft option yet again in not taking him but electing to take three spinners instead. 

 

Harsh on Ollie Robinson to be told that he's not being retained when he's only just landed. 

cantersaddick said:

Addick Addict said:

killerandflash said:

NZ is the sort of place where a part time keeper like Pope is probably "good enough". Mainly seam bowlers, and not baking hot either. In terms of keeping pedigree, he's no worse than Smith anyway.

Keeping in India or Sri Lanka for 6.5 hours to spinners under a baking sun would require someone better.

Try telling that to Bashir if and when Pope misses a stumping or drops a catch standing up. We probably won the last Test because NZ dropped so many including a regimental catch standing back by Blundell. Missing one on a surface that isn't a bunsen burner can catch those out that aren't used to keeping on a regular basis because the mind isn't trained to doing the job for long periods of time whatever the conditions.

Both Buttler and Bairstow suffered in that respect given neither did it for their county. Pope is fourth choice at Surrey, Cox is third choice at Essex. We've been playing lip service to keeping for years, had an opportunity to play a proper one in Robinson (one that has had a strike rate of over 80 in county cricket in the last two season so fits the Bazball modus operandi) but took the soft option yet again in not taking him but electing to take three spinners instead. 

 

Just a slight clarification. Pope is 3rd choice keeper at Surrey. Though actually it does vary by format. In 2022 and 2023 when he was available he was first choice for us in T20's and batting 3. Often Smith didnt get into the side at that time.

Foakes is first choice but only plays red ball, Smith fills in for him and is probably first choice now in T20's, Blake was signed from the Surrey leagues with the 50 over cup in mind but has filled in when needed in other formats, Burns has also kept in a pinch in T20's. Pope hasnt been available much the last few years but when he was he would be 3rd choice in red ball and 2nd (previously first) in T20. 

Happy to bow to your better knowledge so far as pecking order is concerned but I was including Blake ahead of Pope because he does it on a regular basis both in the 50 over and in the Surrey 2s for which he captains and keeps for. In fact, someone who scores 210 in a 2s game, as Blake did at the end of August against Yorkshire would be knocking on the first team door at Kent as a keeper/bat and quite possibly get the job full time too. 

The point is that keeping in red ball cricket is a totally different animal to T20s where a keeper will be lucky to take, on average, one ball an over in a whole innings (20 in total) as opposed to three plus an over in an innings lasting, potentially, over 100 overs. To that end I don't tend to just watch for the drops/misses for the likes of Pope/Smith/Buttler/Bairstow etc etc that matter but the ones that don't seem to matter too because that tells one how much in tune the keeper is with his game. There were a few of those in the last Test including one that enabled O'Rourke not to have to be facing the bowling. 

This is not in any way a criticism of Pope but when we are selecting someone who has kept just nine times in FC cricket in his entire career and not in a recent times then there is something wrong. In fact, the chap we picked to keep on the tour, Jordan Cox has only done so six times in FC cricket and the same questioning of the selectors applies in that respect.  

killerandflash said:

It could be argued that Pope ought to be ahead of Cox as a keeper at the moment anyway, seeing that Cox has had that major injury. 

But it would be too much an ask of Pope, especially for someone whose mind and body isn't used to keeping in long stints and batting at 3 too. Cox was picked because he fits the Smith mould and to put bat to ball when he comes in at 7 even though there has to be doubts about the ability of Cox to deal with real pace judging by how he struggled in the Windies white ball series. 

killerandflash said:

Addick Addict said:

killerandflash said:

It could be argued that Pope ought to be ahead of Cox as a keeper at the moment anyway, seeing that Cox has had that major injury. 

But it would be too much an ask of Pope, especially for someone whose mind and body isn't used to keeping in long stints and batting at 3 too. Cox was picked because he fits the Smith mould and to put bat to ball when he comes in at 7 even though there has to be doubts about the ability of Cox to deal with real pace judging by how he struggled in the Windies white ball series. 

The same could be said of Cox though. How many times has Cox kept in the county championship, and he would have been under pressure as a new Test batsman too.

I totally agree and mentioned above that Cox has done it six times and Pope nine. It is that coming in at first drop, as much as the lack of days doing so, (which would have been inside 20 minutes of the change of innings in the last Test), that is as much the issue for both Pope who has struggled recently for runs and Cox, even batting at 7 who is new to Test cricket and does not keep nowadays. I just do not understand why we didn't take Robinson or someone like Rew in the first place either as the replacement for Smith (with Cox as backup) or, at worst, as backup to Cox (who clearly has issues with breaking digits so even more of a reason to take another keeper - he didn't even break his finger keeping or facing the quicks or a bowling machine set at 90mph but as a result of being hit from the spinning coach doing throw downs.

Will we go to Australia with Pope as reserve keeper because if we do then the same rules will apply - potentially someone who hasn't kept all summer will be asked to do so in a 5-day game at the drop of a hat and we would have to re-jig the batting order too rather than someone who would seamlessly slips in. We had to call Billings up (who was 90 minutes away from catching at flight home, having been playing in the Big Bash last time) but didn't choose to give the gloves to Pope who wasn't even batting at 3 at the time. Equally, Australia came here with Carey (South Australia) and Inglis (Western Australia) and called up Peirson (Queensland) as a replacement and all three are the first choice keepers for their State, doing that job in the Sheffield Shield.