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Charlton back up for sale - Guardian article comment from Gavin Carter p18
Comments
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Don’t know how much they have invested to date, but they will have less chance of getting anything back if we sink back to L1Rothko said:Yep, Friedman runs the fund, it’s not all his cash, he’s wealthy, but he’s managing a lot of wealth. Berner wealth is around $600m from what I’ve seen, he’s always seemed closer to the club on a day to day basis.1 -
Ex BBC Sport journo for many many years , now at The Athletic. Tends to mainly cover takeovers and clubs in trouble.Chris_from_Sidcup said:
I've definitely missed this, but who is Matt Slater?Rothko said:Didn’t Matt Slater make up the £20m figure in March, all of which was going to be spent this window0 -
Should know a lot about Charlton thenMarcusH26 said:
Ex BBC Sport journo for many many years , now at The Athletic. Tends to mainly cover takeovers and clubs in trouble.Chris_from_Sidcup said:
I've definitely missed this, but who is Matt Slater?Rothko said:Didn’t Matt Slater make up the £20m figure in March, all of which was going to be spent this window14 -
I think he’s from Eastenders. Is he the one that runs Dirty Dens pub?Chris_from_Sidcup said:
I've definitely missed this, but who is Matt Slater?Rothko said:Didn’t Matt Slater make up the £20m figure in March, all of which was going to be spent this window5 -
Think he's covered all our misadventures going back to Roland so he's well versed with usCaptainRobbo said:
Should know a lot about Charlton thenMarcusH26 said:
Ex BBC Sport journo for many many years , now at The Athletic. Tends to mainly cover takeovers and clubs in trouble.Chris_from_Sidcup said:
I've definitely missed this, but who is Matt Slater?Rothko said:Didn’t Matt Slater make up the £20m figure in March, all of which was going to be spent this window
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Totally agree shoots. I think we will be last seasons oxford. It is clear for everyone to see we need to spend money in order to progress especially in the midfield area's. I really dont think we have the board that has the ambition to want us to proceed further. Some will argue but actions speak louder than words.ShootersHillGuru said:
Increasing investment means diddly if that increase still leaves you behind your competitors. We need to be able to compete financially pdq because The Championship will find you out.Danny Addick said:Carter’s statement seems clear enough to me - we still have a 5 year plan and want to increase investment to achieve it. It just depends on whether or not we believe it4 -
The club seeking investment is sold as “to progress us”. Our owners are perfectly wealthy enough to do that without looking for additional partners but are obviously unwilling to do so. Surely the question is why ? That’s quite a red flag for me.TheHerminator said:
Based on what? Carter has come out and said the budget this year is the same as last for the right players. You believe he’s just lying?golfaddick said:
I think they will continue to "pay the bills" but anything above that then No. Imo any new player purchases will have to be funded by player sales. Hence why the midfielder & right winger that NJ talked about last week have failed to materialise.SDAddick said:
So in the end everybody was kind of right. They're looking for investors or a takeover overall. Bids apparently due next week. Wouldn't be surprised if that gets pushed back given they've been at this for a year or so apparently.SELR_addicks said:
Are Charlton going to have new owners soon? Brener & Friedman have been looking for help/an exit for ages. They’ve got a new broker They’re looking for £50m+ but there are lots of clubs on market (that don’t involve dealing w/ Duchatelet!). Non-binding bids due next week.
The question becomes what happens if they don't get bids, especially no bids for further investment (because I don't think they're going to get takeover bids)? Will they continue to invest in the squad this summer and beyond? Only time will tell.
I believe that they feel they have been sold a pup and are looking to get some of their money back. Either by an injection of capital from a new investor or by being bought out.
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Every time i think we are making one step forward we take two back, Not sure if this is breaking or old news but just found out Preston have offered 3.5 million for Campbell.
That is ambition.1 -
We need a couple of players but they need to be really good ones for the level. That is the problem, other competing clubs with more money are fishing in the same pool. Maybe we have to look at the loan market which will be expensive but we can persude the donor club that we are the best for that player.0
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I think the reality is that, whilst they’ve brought a short period of stability, the owners have grown weary at the continuing losses and are looking for an exit.I’m sure they’ll continue to fund the club in the meantime but it’s disappointing that their interest and enthusiasm has dissipated so quickly.19
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Our owners got to where they are by hedging bets and spreading risk. They don’t actually have billions in cash.ShootersHillGuru said:
The club seeking investment is sold as “to progress us”. Our owners are perfectly wealthy enough to do that without looking for additional partners but are obviously unwilling to do so. Surely the question is why ? That’s quite a red flag for me.TheHerminator said:
Based on what? Carter has come out and said the budget this year is the same as last for the right players. You believe he’s just lying?golfaddick said:
I think they will continue to "pay the bills" but anything above that then No. Imo any new player purchases will have to be funded by player sales. Hence why the midfielder & right winger that NJ talked about last week have failed to materialise.SDAddick said:
So in the end everybody was kind of right. They're looking for investors or a takeover overall. Bids apparently due next week. Wouldn't be surprised if that gets pushed back given they've been at this for a year or so apparently.SELR_addicks said:Are Charlton going to have new owners soon? Brener & Friedman have been looking for help/an exit for ages. They’ve got a new broker They’re looking for £50m+ but there are lots of clubs on market (that don’t involve dealing w/ Duchatelet!). Non-binding bids due next week.
The question becomes what happens if they don't get bids, especially no bids for further investment (because I don't think they're going to get takeover bids)? Will they continue to invest in the squad this summer and beyond? Only time will tell.
I believe that they feel they have been sold a pup and are looking to get some of their money back. Either by an injection of capital from a new investor or by being bought out.
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Seeking further investment is a perfectly normal business practice no matter how rich you are.
Yes on paper they are rich, doesn’t mean they want to just continually throw their own money down the pisser. All sensible business men, especially those who have amassed significant net wealth (on paper) would be doing the exact same thing. Otherwise they wouldn’t be rich for very long9 -
The vast majority of people who invest in companies don’t “own” (as in have a controlling stake) in that company. It’s entirely why the stock markets exist.AberystwythAddick said:It’ll be easier to sell the club than find investors I would have thought.You’d be better off just burning your money than giving it to a football club you don’t ownThe reason people would invest in Charlton isn’t necessarily to own it, it’s to own equity in an asset that may be able to create a return on that investment. The risk is there - not many clubs run a profit so decent dividends are a remote possibility, but there’s also the chance that your equity is purchased at a higher amount (I.e. if someone comes in and buys the club at a higher valuation than when you bought your stake).It probably wouldn’t be me even if I was ultra wealthy, but comparing it with “burning money” is ridiculous.1 -
Owners of clubs at our level know that they are unlikely to become billionaires through the progress of the club. Thiis is a closed shop anyway as we will never reach the heights of even a mid table premiership team.
Owners should be aware of this as their business acumen has made them the fortunes that they have.
But if your not prepared to take the losses dont take over a football club. Especially in this short period. Maybe if they speculated to accumulate the story might be different.1 -
Well of course. But if all his investments were to suddenly drop by 20%, he'd still be worth $4 Billion, made up of his ownership stake in Canyon Partners and his share of management fees and performance fees earned by the firm over the years.TheHerminator said:
You do know they don’t actually have £5b right?queensland_addick said:As usual, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. The club hasn't denied that it's up for sale, but then every club is likely up for sale, at the right price!
What I don't understand is this. Friedman & Brener are supposedly worth a combined sum in the region of $5.5 Billion.
Why on earth do they even need to be seeking additional investment ?
Their assets and investments could be worth that much at any given time if they liquidated everything.They could also be worth a lot less if the market turned on them.
Very few people in the world are cash billionaires.He also has his own personal investment portfolio, including investments in Canyon funds (a company that has assets under management of around $30 Billion) and other assets, plus other personal holdings.
As such, Charlton are just a minor part of his investment portfolio and any losses would be used to reduce his Tax Bill anyway.
5-10- 15 million is really just a drop in the ocean to a person of such wealth, less than half of 1%.
I would suggest that anyone serious and fully committed to a new business venture, should be prepared to put at least 5% of their nett personal wealth on the line, given that their asset base is likely to grow by at least 5% every year anyway.
As a comparison Reynolds and McElhenney at Wrexham have a combined reported net worth of less than 10% of our owners @ $400 million.
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I'm a lifelong Charlton fan. I stood on the old East terrace as a seven year old with my older half brother, a few months after our dad died - that was 62 years ago and in all that time, suffering the few highs and many lows, my love for Charlton has not diminished. Years in the wilderness and the glorious return home. If I was a billionaire I would probably spend most of my fortune on buying and financing Charlton Athletic. I would pay Two Sheds what he wanted to get The Valley back and then put it in trust so it could never be separated from the club again. All of that would be 100% emotional and also 100% irrational. Just the same as the likes of Steve Gibson, Simon Jordan (spit) and John Coates who likewise stood on their respective terraces as young boys.Our owners are none of the above - they are rational, successful businessmen and rational, successful businessmen do not continue to lose money, perhaps more money than they anticipated, without reviewing their 'investment'. People say yes but it's only about £15m a year - they can afford it. £15m a year loss is serious money, a huge wedge, even to a billionaire, yet some dismiss it as small change. Our owners do not have the emotion that we as fans do - and my story above would be echoed by many on here - we would spend irrationally if for example in Friedman's financial position.How can we expect complete strangers to Charlton to continue to bail us out without looking to mitigate those ongoing losses?50
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The Rich Cawley/Louis Mendez pod with Gavin Carter interview is excellent. Worth the yearly subscription alone.
Great that we've got these two on the side of fans...
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Yes but Reynolds and the other one!! (Can’t spell his name) are no longer hugely vested in Wrexham from a personal risk perspective. They have very cleverly outsourced the funding for Wrexham to Disney and a big American Airline, so their personal investment in the club now is low. They’ve probably recouped what they initially investedqueensland_addick said:
Well of course. But if all his investments were to suddenly drop by 20%, he'd still be worth $4 Billion, made up of his ownership stake in Canyon Partners and his share of management fees and performance fees earned by the firm over the years.TheHerminator said:
You do know they don’t actually have £5b right?queensland_addick said:As usual, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. The club hasn't denied that it's up for sale, but then every club is likely up for sale, at the right price!
What I don't understand is this. Friedman & Brener are supposedly worth a combined sum in the region of $5.5 Billion.
Why on earth do they even need to be seeking additional investment ?
Their assets and investments could be worth that much at any given time if they liquidated everything.They could also be worth a lot less if the market turned on them.
Very few people in the world are cash billionaires.He also has his own personal investment portfolio, including investments in Canyon funds (a company that has assets under management of around $30 Billion) and other assets, plus other personal holdings.
As such, Charlton are just a minor part of his investment portfolio and any losses would be used to reduce his Tax Bill anyway.
5-10- 15 million is really just a drop in the ocean to a person of such wealth, less than half of 1%.
I would suggest that anyone serious and fully committed to a new business venture, should be prepared to put at least 5% of their nett personal wealth on the line, given that their asset base is likely to grow by at least 5% every year anyway.
As a comparison Reynolds and McElhenney at Wrexham have a combined reported net worth of less than 10% of our owners @ $400 million.2 -
There's other investors too with Wrexham that probably means Rob and Ryan are basically now frontmen that aren't putting much of their own money in anymore.TheHerminator said:
Yes but Reynolds and the other one!! (Can’t spell his name) are no longer hugely vested in Wrexham from a personal risk perspective. They have very cleverly outsourced the funding for Wrexham to Disney and a big American Airline, so their personal investment in the club now is low. They’ve probably recouped what they initially investedqueensland_addick said:
Well of course. But if all his investments were to suddenly drop by 20%, he'd still be worth $4 Billion, made up of his ownership stake in Canyon Partners and his share of management fees and performance fees earned by the firm over the years.TheHerminator said:
You do know they don’t actually have £5b right?queensland_addick said:As usual, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. The club hasn't denied that it's up for sale, but then every club is likely up for sale, at the right price!
What I don't understand is this. Friedman & Brener are supposedly worth a combined sum in the region of $5.5 Billion.
Why on earth do they even need to be seeking additional investment ?
Their assets and investments could be worth that much at any given time if they liquidated everything.They could also be worth a lot less if the market turned on them.
Very few people in the world are cash billionaires.He also has his own personal investment portfolio, including investments in Canyon funds (a company that has assets under management of around $30 Billion) and other assets, plus other personal holdings.
As such, Charlton are just a minor part of his investment portfolio and any losses would be used to reduce his Tax Bill anyway.
5-10- 15 million is really just a drop in the ocean to a person of such wealth, less than half of 1%.
I would suggest that anyone serious and fully committed to a new business venture, should be prepared to put at least 5% of their nett personal wealth on the line, given that their asset base is likely to grow by at least 5% every year anyway.
As a comparison Reynolds and McElhenney at Wrexham have a combined reported net worth of less than 10% of our owners @ $400 million.3 -
True, like I say I’d be very surprised if those two haven’t made a tidy profit on their up front investment at this pointMarcusH26 said:
There's other investors too with Wrexham that probably means Rob and Ryan are basically now frontmen that aren't putting much of their own money in anymore.TheHerminator said:
Yes but Reynolds and the other one!! (Can’t spell his name) are no longer hugely vested in Wrexham from a personal risk perspective. They have very cleverly outsourced the funding for Wrexham to Disney and a big American Airline, so their personal investment in the club now is low. They’ve probably recouped what they initially investedqueensland_addick said:
Well of course. But if all his investments were to suddenly drop by 20%, he'd still be worth $4 Billion, made up of his ownership stake in Canyon Partners and his share of management fees and performance fees earned by the firm over the years.TheHerminator said:
You do know they don’t actually have £5b right?queensland_addick said:As usual, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. The club hasn't denied that it's up for sale, but then every club is likely up for sale, at the right price!
What I don't understand is this. Friedman & Brener are supposedly worth a combined sum in the region of $5.5 Billion.
Why on earth do they even need to be seeking additional investment ?
Their assets and investments could be worth that much at any given time if they liquidated everything.They could also be worth a lot less if the market turned on them.
Very few people in the world are cash billionaires.He also has his own personal investment portfolio, including investments in Canyon funds (a company that has assets under management of around $30 Billion) and other assets, plus other personal holdings.
As such, Charlton are just a minor part of his investment portfolio and any losses would be used to reduce his Tax Bill anyway.
5-10- 15 million is really just a drop in the ocean to a person of such wealth, less than half of 1%.
I would suggest that anyone serious and fully committed to a new business venture, should be prepared to put at least 5% of their nett personal wealth on the line, given that their asset base is likely to grow by at least 5% every year anyway.
As a comparison Reynolds and McElhenney at Wrexham have a combined reported net worth of less than 10% of our owners @ $400 million.1 -
Probably comfortably made their money back just off the documentary alone.TheHerminator said:
True, like I say I’d be very surprised if those two haven’t made a tidy profit on their up front investment at this pointMarcusH26 said:
There's other investors too with Wrexham that probably means Rob and Ryan are basically now frontmen that aren't putting much of their own money in anymore.TheHerminator said:
Yes but Reynolds and the other one!! (Can’t spell his name) are no longer hugely vested in Wrexham from a personal risk perspective. They have very cleverly outsourced the funding for Wrexham to Disney and a big American Airline, so their personal investment in the club now is low. They’ve probably recouped what they initially investedqueensland_addick said:
Well of course. But if all his investments were to suddenly drop by 20%, he'd still be worth $4 Billion, made up of his ownership stake in Canyon Partners and his share of management fees and performance fees earned by the firm over the years.TheHerminator said:
You do know they don’t actually have £5b right?queensland_addick said:As usual, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. The club hasn't denied that it's up for sale, but then every club is likely up for sale, at the right price!
What I don't understand is this. Friedman & Brener are supposedly worth a combined sum in the region of $5.5 Billion.
Why on earth do they even need to be seeking additional investment ?
Their assets and investments could be worth that much at any given time if they liquidated everything.They could also be worth a lot less if the market turned on them.
Very few people in the world are cash billionaires.He also has his own personal investment portfolio, including investments in Canyon funds (a company that has assets under management of around $30 Billion) and other assets, plus other personal holdings.
As such, Charlton are just a minor part of his investment portfolio and any losses would be used to reduce his Tax Bill anyway.
5-10- 15 million is really just a drop in the ocean to a person of such wealth, less than half of 1%.
I would suggest that anyone serious and fully committed to a new business venture, should be prepared to put at least 5% of their nett personal wealth on the line, given that their asset base is likely to grow by at least 5% every year anyway.
As a comparison Reynolds and McElhenney at Wrexham have a combined reported net worth of less than 10% of our owners @ $400 million.2 -
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I’m sure there are many reasons why very rich individuals want to own football clubs and thank goodness they do. What I don’t understand is why someone would do so as an investment. It’s a money pit. The only way it can work is if you get to The Premier League and then sell. Year on year losses at Charlton are currently what ? £16 million and to push on that’s not going to be enough. At what point does the accumulation of losses set against the value of the asset make the whole thing pointless ? Unless of course you give it a good go or get incredibly lucky.2
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It’s a great question. Genuinely no idea why you’d pump money in to a football club when the chances of a good return are so small. Unless you stumble across a Wrexham type situation, but they’re incredibly rareShootersHillGuru said:I’m sure there are many reasons why very rich individuals want to own football clubs and thank goodness they do. What I don’t understand is why someone would do so as an investment. It’s a money pit. The only way it can work is if you get to The Premier League and then sell. Year on year losses at Charlton are currently what ? £16 million and to push on that’s not going to be enough. At what point does the accumulation of losses set against the value of the asset make the whole thing pointless ? Unless of course you give it a good go or get incredibly lucky.0 -
I understand all that @bobmunro
Just depresses me out nearest rival managed to get that with the Berylson’s. It’s resulted in sustained growth / stability and a huge expansion in their support in what is also our catchment area.Coupled with the success at Palace we are now fishing in a much more reduced pond and just treading water coupled with a higher pricing strategy sadly is the not going to take us one way16 -
AFKABartram said:I understand all that @bobmunro
Just depresses me out nearest rival managed to get that with the Berylson’s. It’s resulted in sustained growth / stability and a huge expansion in their support in what is also our catchment area.Coupled with the success at Palace we are now fishing in a much more reduced pond and just treading water coupled with a higher pricing strategy sadly is the not going to take us one way
I didn't say I'm not depressed about the situation!6 -
This is a tired and inaccurate view in my opinion.queensland_addick said:
Well of course. But if all his investments were to suddenly drop by 20%, he'd still be worth $4 Billion, made up of his ownership stake in Canyon Partners and his share of management fees and performance fees earned by the firm over the years.TheHerminator said:
You do know they don’t actually have £5b right?queensland_addick said:As usual, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. The club hasn't denied that it's up for sale, but then every club is likely up for sale, at the right price!
What I don't understand is this. Friedman & Brener are supposedly worth a combined sum in the region of $5.5 Billion.
Why on earth do they even need to be seeking additional investment ?
Their assets and investments could be worth that much at any given time if they liquidated everything.They could also be worth a lot less if the market turned on them.
Very few people in the world are cash billionaires.He also has his own personal investment portfolio, including investments in Canyon funds (a company that has assets under management of around $30 Billion) and other assets, plus other personal holdings.
As such, Charlton are just a minor part of his investment portfolio and any losses would be used to reduce his Tax Bill anyway.
5-10- 15 million is really just a drop in the ocean to a person of such wealth, less than half of 1%.
I would suggest that anyone serious and fully committed to a new business venture, should be prepared to put at least 5% of their nett personal wealth on the line, given that their asset base is likely to grow by at least 5% every year anyway.
As a comparison Reynolds and McElhenney at Wrexham have a combined reported net worth of less than 10% of our owners @ $400 million.A loss is a loss of real cash. The fact he / they may pay less tax on any surplus profits elsewhere (if the tax authority even allow such offsetting) is immaterial. You don’t make losses to avoid tax. You’re still out of pocket.3 -
Probably a slightly pessimistic view coming but I think that our “new” owners are not going to be either invested enough on an emotional level or willing to invest in monetary terms to take the club where we would like it to be. I think they’ve brought us stability and we’re certainly better off now than when they took over from Sandgaard. For that alone we should be grateful. I could be wrong that their long term strategy of slow steady progression will work but to me it looks a lot like stagnation. Even at this point I can’t see where they recoup their losses and it looks very much to me like the exit strategy has been activated. I’d be surprised if they are still around in two years. My biggest hope is that there’s enough investment to enable us to maintain our Championship status which at this point is looking very worrying.1
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The fact is that they did, having done their due diligence and being fully aware of the possible risks and rewards.TheHerminator said:
It’s a great question. Genuinely no idea why you’d pump money in to a football club when the chances of a good return are so small. Unless you stumble across a Wrexham type situation, but they’re incredibly rareShootersHillGuru said:I’m sure there are many reasons why very rich individuals want to own football clubs and thank goodness they do. What I don’t understand is why someone would do so as an investment. It’s a money pit. The only way it can work is if you get to The Premier League and then sell. Year on year losses at Charlton are currently what ? £16 million and to push on that’s not going to be enough. At what point does the accumulation of losses set against the value of the asset make the whole thing pointless ? Unless of course you give it a good go or get incredibly lucky.
Being experienced business men they would also be aware that in order to reach the end goal, there would likely be highs and lows, including the possibility of having to fund some years of losses along the way.
If they are not prepared to do that, then they really shouldn't have got involved.
Why bother? Excitement, as with any gamble. The Wembley victory and Promotion being a prime example.
And there could be more, if only they were prepared to fund building on the momentum achieved over the past year.4 -
I tend to agree with what you say about ‘investment’, but have we been experiencing stagnation since we were bought from Sandgaard?ShootersHillGuru said:Probably a slightly pessimistic view coming but I think that our “new” owners are not going to be either invested enough on an emotional level or willing to invest in monetary terms to take the club where we would like it to be. I think they’ve brought us stability and we’re certainly better off now than when they took over from Sandgaard. For that alone we should be grateful. I could be wrong that their long term strategy of slow steady progression will work but to me it looks a lot like stagnation. Even at this point I can’t see where they recoup their losses and it looks very much to me like the exit strategy has been activated. I’d be surprised if they are still around in two years. My biggest hope is that there’s enough investment to enable us to maintain our Championship status which at this point is looking very worrying.
We have a higher profile, been to Wembley, been promoted, and survived (so far).
You could call that progression (however slow and steady) rather than stagnation couldn’t you?
Yes the future is unknown and uncertain as always, but whatever the shenanigans if we achieve ‘difficult second album’ survival this next season I think we are still making satisfactory progress.2 -
Oh I certainly don’t think we’ve stagnated so far under these owners. What I’m trying to put across albeit badly is that it looks like stagnation is the likely result of investment on the current levels. Getting out of league one is one thing but pushing forward in The Championship or even just staying up requires more. I know we’ve been told that there is more year on year but can we really see that at present and even if we can make a case for that, are any of us convinced that it’s enough to avoid another relegation battle ?jose said:
I tend to agree with what you say about ‘investment’, but have we been experiencing stagnation since we were bought from Sandgaard?ShootersHillGuru said:Probably a slightly pessimistic view coming but I think that our “new” owners are not going to be either invested enough on an emotional level or willing to invest in monetary terms to take the club where we would like it to be. I think they’ve brought us stability and we’re certainly better off now than when they took over from Sandgaard. For that alone we should be grateful. I could be wrong that their long term strategy of slow steady progression will work but to me it looks a lot like stagnation. Even at this point I can’t see where they recoup their losses and it looks very much to me like the exit strategy has been activated. I’d be surprised if they are still around in two years. My biggest hope is that there’s enough investment to enable us to maintain our Championship status which at this point is looking very worrying.
We have a higher profile, been to Wembley, been promoted, and survived (so far).
You could call that progression (however slow and steady) rather than stagnation couldn’t you?
Yes the future is unknown and uncertain as always, but whatever the shenanigans if we achieve ‘difficult second album’ survival this next season I think we are still making satisfactory progress.1 -
I reckon if you went on every football club message board today about 80%+ of them would have threads bemoaning their lack of signings and the need for more investment.
Its just what football fans have become.23
