POST-MATCH THREAD: Stoke City v Charlton Athletic: Saturday 5th September 2026: KO 12:30

se9addick said:

PragueAddick said:

fenaddick said:

PragueAddick said:

fenaddick said:

PragueAddick said:

Really, somebody, prove me wrong.

Can we just first  agree that when refs hold up a card  they do it more or less straight upwards? 

Good. So for a player to be punished for visually demanding a card he needs to mimic that. Not an arm out like he’s directing traffic. Nor a Nazi salute for that matter. 

Right then. Post up the footage  that shows Danny Mac holding his arm up vertically like that. Right now, I don’t think it exists. You can’t cop out by saying “for me” @LargeAddick. Its a draconian rule, so it has to be interpreted strictly. Lets see the footage. If it exists, I am ready to apologise to all who claim DM was correctly carded. 

 But as I said on the match thread, Sky dont have superior footage that CTV and others don’t. Everything goes through a central EFL studio in Osterley and is fed out from there to the club streams. I’m not ITK. There was an article in the Athletic about it.

NJ said it was for the gesture which means Madley thinks that’s what he saw. Regardless of all that, it’s silly of McNamara to run over to do that when in theory the rule is only the captain can approach the ref. That means he’s already making the ref twitchy. He’s a senior pro playing in a match where his team needed leadership and a cool head and he did the opposite 

That’s your opinion, but is not the subject of my post. The rule is new , and its very specific. Its also very easy to spot, unlike the other new guidance on grappling which Madley was also interested in showing he could apply when no one else in the ground could see it. 

I believe you are all across socials, etc. Have you got footage to post of DM doing the card signal ( like we saw in the World Cup) or not?

Weirdly I haven’t seen it anywhere, I saw it once during the game and that’s it. It was from one of those far away, lower quality type cameras. With a bigger telly it might have been more obvious but I just saw him waving his hand around. I guess we also don’t know the context of what he was saying at the time which could be a contributing factor 

The Sky highlights package is up on the OS now, and I think it makes you right. DM's hand briefly goes up, albeit crooked arm, before extending out at 90 degree angle for quite a long time as he approaches Madley. The close up only shows his arm out wide, so Madley would need to have seen him approach, and I'm not sure he did because he's in "dialogue" with Bell and Mesik right in front of him. But now I see that, I have to concede there was something like a "card simulation" in which case you are right to criticise DM for coming such a long way to make his point. But then, he would not have been on a yellow if Madley and the lino had carried out their most basic task a couple of minutes earlier.

I admire your persistence here, but is your position (now you’ve seen the replay) that McNamara may have done it, the Madley might not have seen him do it but due to some vendetta against us just guessed that McNamara had made the gesture and sent him off?

Surely the more plausible explanation is that McNamara did it (however briefly), Madley saw it and gave him the second yellow that he’s supposed to by the letter of the law?

The officiating was woeful yesterday, but I don’t think this incident is the one to die on a hill over. Not least because in the context of the match it didn’t really matter as the game as a contest was already well over. Does mean we lose McNamara for the next match, but when you sign players from Millwall that’s to be expected! 

PragueAddick said:

@Martinspringle

thanks for a really instructive post, the detail about how assessors do their work was especially insightful.

I dont spend much time on X especially re Charlton nowadays , but I saw a Stoke fan claiming it was a stonewall pen. And I suddenly realised that on the audio, there was no appeal from the Stoke fans when this “stonewall “ offence happened, just an embarrassed cheer a couple of seconds later when they realised they’d got given a gift, and as you say, there were no appeals from the players either. I'm surprised Brownie didn't make a point of that yesterday. He's usually making the point that if a ref isn't quite sure, he can tell quite a lot from how the players have reacted. That's certainly true of that absolutely diabolical non-corner decision .

For what it’s worth, I remember getting a couple of earfuls from Brownie when I officiated Margate and he was their manager. He certainly seems more sympathetic to referees since moving into comms.

Assessors at non-league level are generally pretty good and, importantly, they tend to set a much more consistent bar. Clubs usually know exactly how a referee is likely to manage a game when an assessor is there, and referees know what is expected of them too.

The impact on referees is also pretty immediate. One poor assessor’s mark, or one major error, can effectively ruin your season and seriously damage your chances of promotion. In some leagues, it can even result in you being relegated down a level, so there is a genuine sense of jeopardy around every performance.

I genuinely think the standard of refereeing can actually be poorer in the Football League and the Premier League because officials don’t have quite the same fear of jeopardy. At those levels, there is still pressure and accountability, but the consequences of a poor performance are not always as immediate or severe as they are lower down the pyramid.

As you move down the leagues, you often find referees who are fitter, more consistent and much clearer in how they manage the game.

Listening to Mike Dean speak the other day reinforced that for me. If a non-league referee spent 15 minutes operating around the centre circle, he’d be hammered for his fitness and positioning and would probably get a call from the league’s referee officer afterwards.

Not long before I quit, there was talk of refereeing treating itself as a sport. But without jeopardy, there is no sport. If they were serious about improving refereeing, the whole professional-to-semi-professional pyramid would operate in the same way as the Football League, with assessor marks published and made public, and officials able to progress up and/or down the tables accordingly.

What gesture was Mac meant to have done?

PragueAddick said:

se9addick said:

PragueAddick said:

fenaddick said:

PragueAddick said:

fenaddick said:

PragueAddick said:

Really, somebody, prove me wrong.

Can we just first  agree that when refs hold up a card  they do it more or less straight upwards? 

Good. So for a player to be punished for visually demanding a card he needs to mimic that. Not an arm out like he’s directing traffic. Nor a Nazi salute for that matter. 

Right then. Post up the footage  that shows Danny Mac holding his arm up vertically like that. Right now, I don’t think it exists. You can’t cop out by saying “for me” @LargeAddick. Its a draconian rule, so it has to be interpreted strictly. Lets see the footage. If it exists, I am ready to apologise to all who claim DM was correctly carded. 

 But as I said on the match thread, Sky dont have superior footage that CTV and others don’t. Everything goes through a central EFL studio in Osterley and is fed out from there to the club streams. I’m not ITK. There was an article in the Athletic about it.

NJ said it was for the gesture which means Madley thinks that’s what he saw. Regardless of all that, it’s silly of McNamara to run over to do that when in theory the rule is only the captain can approach the ref. That means he’s already making the ref twitchy. He’s a senior pro playing in a match where his team needed leadership and a cool head and he did the opposite 

That’s your opinion, but is not the subject of my post. The rule is new , and its very specific. Its also very easy to spot, unlike the other new guidance on grappling which Madley was also interested in showing he could apply when no one else in the ground could see it. 

I believe you are all across socials, etc. Have you got footage to post of DM doing the card signal ( like we saw in the World Cup) or not?

Weirdly I haven’t seen it anywhere, I saw it once during the game and that’s it. It was from one of those far away, lower quality type cameras. With a bigger telly it might have been more obvious but I just saw him waving his hand around. I guess we also don’t know the context of what he was saying at the time which could be a contributing factor 

The Sky highlights package is up on the OS now, and I think it makes you right. DM's hand briefly goes up, albeit crooked arm, before extending out at 90 degree angle for quite a long time as he approaches Madley. The close up only shows his arm out wide, so Madley would need to have seen him approach, and I'm not sure he did because he's in "dialogue" with Bell and Mesik right in front of him. But now I see that, I have to concede there was something like a "card simulation" in which case you are right to criticise DM for coming such a long way to make his point. But then, he would not have been on a yellow if Madley and the lino had carried out their most basic task a couple of minutes earlier.

I admire your persistence here, but is your position (now you’ve seen the replay) that McNamara may have done it, the Madley might not have seen him do it but due to some vendetta against us just guessed that McNamara had made the gesture and sent him off?

Surely the more plausible explanation is that McNamara did it (however briefly), Madley saw it and gave him the second yellow that he’s supposed to by the letter of the law?

The officiating was woeful yesterday, but I don’t think this incident is the one to die on a hill over. Not least because in the context of the match it didn’t really matter as the game as a contest was already well over. Does mean we lose McNamara for the next match, but when you sign players from Millwall that’s to be expected! 

No, I don't think Madley was running some vendetta against us. I think he is a very bad ref, and i speculate that it's partly because of his personality traits similar to Graham Poll and his mate who were so pleased with themselves that they commissioned a DVD of themselves called some thing like "Hard Man Referees".

I've never liked the fact that expressions of dissent are punishable to the same level as a career-ending tackle. Dissent has to be curbed but a more rational level of proportionality needs to be introduced to the punishment system, otherwise you get refs like Madley who can't wait to show their "authority" to a large audience.

Specifically, this yellow card simulation penalty; correct me if I'm wrong (doubtless @fenaddick will correct me 😉) but didn't this rule suddenly appear during this summer's World Cup? I don't remember this offence being any kind of big deal in English football before then. I certainly agree that when you've got players like Messi doing exactly that in front of a global audience, something needs to be done about it. But is it a good thing to make it a big deal, a global new rule to be applied like it was yesterday? 

Also, @fenaddick speculates that Madley may have been informed about it by one of his three assistants. Well, that brings me to another bugbear of mine, and certainly one that Brownie shares. I am all for refs getting help from their assistants because there are certainly some things they might miss, simply due to angle or bodies in the way. Yet we witness the opposite: absolute stone-wall offences committed right in front of the linesman's eyes, and the them doing nothing to bring it to the ref's attention. There was a classic example of this in the first half yesterday, which Brownie went on about. @martinspringle  Do you happen to know what the current rule or guidance is about when Linos should proactively flag for an offence. ? And do you know the extent to which they and the fourth official are supposed to proactively communicate with the ref over radio to help him be aware of incidents that he might have missed? My point here is, I shouldn't even be having to ask on a football forum. The answer ought to be very much in the public domain and in writing. 

Martinspringle said:

 Gribbo said:

What gesture was Mac meant to have done?

The offence in law is “excessively/persistently gesturing for a red or yellow card.”

though the degree to which is was excessive or persistent is questionable. The gesture was fleeting. Without being a lip reader, it’s pretty clear he was saying words to the effect of “you just booked me over there for far less”

eastterrace6168 said:

oohaahmortimer said:

0%    Top 2 
0%      3-4
1%    5-6
2.5%      7-8
4.5%    9-12
83%    13-21
9%       The big R 

Not a criticism @oohaahmortimer , but where do you get your percentages from mate...

sam3110 said:

"players who wave an imaginary card to pressure the referee into booking an opponent will receive a mandatory yellow card for unsporting behaviour or dissent"

Sorry but Danny Mac was a fucking idiot for jogging 60 yards over to do it and by the letter of the law Madley did what he's meant to, about the only thing he did "right" all game unfortunately 

801912601 said:

Started really well and could easily have gone one up.
Terrible decision by Timmy to giver the ref the chance to give the pen but did look like both were holding each other.
We then lost shape and composure and Timmy looked well off the pace and wasn’t strong enough throughout.
Ref gave us nothing all game, Gallagher made 4 bad challenges in 20 mins with no bookings, Galbraith made several fouls and some of the challenges on Leaburn, Grant and Jones were assaults and yet no bookings. 

Trying to see a positive I thought Ivan didn’t need well and Skipp loooed committed and decent. Coventry coming on made a big improvement and needs to start when fit.

ross1 said:

If I remember properly, last season QPR got hammered the game before us and most on here thought we would beat them.
Hopefully QPR are thinking the same on Wednesday 

Callumcafc said:

Playing back to back aways on Wednesday night and Saturday lunchtime should not be allowed and I hope the club raise that with the EFL.