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Manchester City’s 115 charges and legal action - Premier League statement p9
Comments
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DamoNorthStand said:Stoke City are the one I would look at........ that Bet365 Stadium 'sponsorship'.......... no way they have the revenue organically to support their spend this summer.Yada, yada - "Bob, you would say this anyway!!!"Why is that then? The stadium naming rights are peanuts compared to some of the others (and are transparent, not inflated), and bet365 sponsored the stadium when the deal with Britannia ended because no other f*cker wanted it.They have spent bigger this season purely because they have spent relatively little over the past few years due to not having headroom within FFP. Here are the figures for the last 10 seasons, and two of those were in the Prem followed by two with parachute payments. Hardly splashing the cash at an average of net £7m a season.
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What an arsehole Burnham is. Another who has sold out to the Arabs.clive said:Andy Burnham has said he would be "really concerned" if Manchester City's owners decide to sell up after the club was found guilty of Premier League financial rule breaches.
The prime minister said the situation was "contested by Manchester City" and he praised the club's owners since 2008 - led by Sheikh Mansour, United Arab Emirates deputy prime minister and royal family member - for investing in Manchester.
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Spurs 752m
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If this is to be handled in a way that the punishment fits the crime, then it’s going to take the Premier League/EFL/The FA collaborating on the punishment.
A massive one off points deduction which relegates them is just something that only sets them back 1-3 years. It will sting hard, but they’ll still have the ability to recover considering the size of the brand they’ve built.
A more suitable outcome would be a points deduction in place for every season they’ve cheated, regardless of which league they are in. Effectively they’d be in a points deduction for nearly a decade.
Realistically it seems highly unlikely that would ever be done, but that’s what a suitable response would be.
Cynical part of me still thinks the Premier League will secretly want to make it possible for City to be among the big boys again sooner rather than later. Losing a club that is intertwined with their big title race every single year isn’t something they’d want to permanently hurt.4 -
The PL could expel them and then the EFL decide where to place them.cafctom said:If this is to be handled in a way that the punishment fits the crime, then it’s going to take the Premier League/EFL/The FA collaborating on the punishment.
A massive one off points deduction which relegates them is just something that only sets them back 1-3 years. It will sting hard, but they’ll still have the ability to recover considering the size of the brand they’ve built.
A more suitable outcome would be a points deduction in place for every season they’ve cheated, regardless of which league they are in. Effectively they’d be in a points deduction for nearly a decade.
Realistically it seems highly unlikely that would ever be done, but that’s what a suitable response would be.
Cynical part of me still thinks the Premier League will secretly want to make it possible for City to be among the big boys again sooner rather than later. Losing a club that is intertwined with their big title race every single year isn’t something they’d want to permanently hurt.1 -
Etihad airways playing the victims tonight, that would be same airline owned by the same government as the club3
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Big part of me thinks the PL will still want City playing games this season (again TV revenue). Just kicking them out altogether at short notice causes all sorts of logistical issues. That’s why I think one big relegation sized points deduction is most likely.The Red Robin said:
The PL could expel them and then the EFL decide where to place them.cafctom said:If this is to be handled in a way that the punishment fits the crime, then it’s going to take the Premier League/EFL/The FA collaborating on the punishment.
A massive one off points deduction which relegates them is just something that only sets them back 1-3 years. It will sting hard, but they’ll still have the ability to recover considering the size of the brand they’ve built.
A more suitable outcome would be a points deduction in place for every season they’ve cheated, regardless of which league they are in. Effectively they’d be in a points deduction for nearly a decade.
Realistically it seems highly unlikely that would ever be done, but that’s what a suitable response would be.
Cynical part of me still thinks the Premier League will secretly want to make it possible for City to be among the big boys again sooner rather than later. Losing a club that is intertwined with their big title race every single year isn’t something they’d want to permanently hurt.
It’s a big statement, but gets City back in the PL sooner rather than later.1 -
I actually think they would be happy taking City out of the race for a while. There's been a lot of teams intertwined in the title race over the prem years, utd newcastle, utd arsenal, utd chelsea, city utd, city liverpool, city arsenal. The big teams have waxed and waned but the prem has kept growing, the brand, revenue everything.cafctom said:If this is to be handled in a way that the punishment fits the crime, then it’s going to take the Premier League/EFL/The FA collaborating on the punishment.
A massive one off points deduction which relegates them is just something that only sets them back 1-3 years. It will sting hard, but they’ll still have the ability to recover considering the size of the brand they’ve built.
A more suitable outcome would be a points deduction in place for every season they’ve cheated, regardless of which league they are in. Effectively they’d be in a points deduction for nearly a decade.
Realistically it seems highly unlikely that would ever be done, but that’s what a suitable response would be.
Cynical part of me still thinks the Premier League will secretly want to make it possible for City to be among the big boys again sooner rather than later. Losing a club that is intertwined with their big title race every single year isn’t something they’d want to permanently hurt.
The strength is the unpredictability, not being a league where at best one of two teams can win, at worst it's the same team every season.
As much as I think they were probably happy when City came through and broke the dominance of Utd, freshened things up, I think now after 10/15 years of City dominance they'll be happy to cut them loose, freshen things up again.
It's not a sport to those running it, is just a brand.1 -
Also would take 15 clubs to vote for an expulsion, can't see that happeningcafctom said:
Big part of me thinks the PL will still want City playing games this season (again TV revenue). Just kicking them out altogether at short notice causes all sorts of logistical issues. That’s why I think one big relegation sized points deduction is most likely.The Red Robin said:
The PL could expel them and then the EFL decide where to place them.cafctom said:If this is to be handled in a way that the punishment fits the crime, then it’s going to take the Premier League/EFL/The FA collaborating on the punishment.
A massive one off points deduction which relegates them is just something that only sets them back 1-3 years. It will sting hard, but they’ll still have the ability to recover considering the size of the brand they’ve built.
A more suitable outcome would be a points deduction in place for every season they’ve cheated, regardless of which league they are in. Effectively they’d be in a points deduction for nearly a decade.
Realistically it seems highly unlikely that would ever be done, but that’s what a suitable response would be.
Cynical part of me still thinks the Premier League will secretly want to make it possible for City to be among the big boys again sooner rather than later. Losing a club that is intertwined with their big title race every single year isn’t something they’d want to permanently hurt.
It’s a big statement, but gets City back in the PL sooner rather than later.1 -
All day long.Southbank said:
What an arsehole Burnham is. Another who has sold out to the Arabs.clive said:Andy Burnham has said he would be "really concerned" if Manchester City's owners decide to sell up after the club was found guilty of Premier League financial rule breaches.
The prime minister said the situation was "contested by Manchester City" and he praised the club's owners since 2008 - led by Sheikh Mansour, United Arab Emirates deputy prime minister and royal family member - for investing in Manchester.
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It won’t be as severe as people think. Too much political pressure8
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AberystwythAddick said:It won’t be as severe as people think. Too much political pressureAgreed.I would like a 70-80 point deduction that would surely relegate then - and if a 60 point deduction would have done it then the balance carried over to The Championship.But I expect a 20 point or so deduction, whatever would likely be sufficient to stop them winning the league. Plus perhaps removing the opportunity for them to qualify for any European competition - i.e. if they finish in a Euro spot then it goes to the next team.4
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Is it really that unpredictable though? It’s more competitive than other major European leagues, but it’s the same cohort of clubs every time (with the one single Leicester exception).ForestHillAddick said:
I actually think they would be happy taking City out of the race for a while. There's been a lot of teams intertwined in the title race over the prem years, utd newcastle, utd arsenal, utd chelsea, city utd, city liverpool, city arsenal. The big teams have waxed and waned but the prem has kept growing, the brand, revenue everything.cafctom said:If this is to be handled in a way that the punishment fits the crime, then it’s going to take the Premier League/EFL/The FA collaborating on the punishment.
A massive one off points deduction which relegates them is just something that only sets them back 1-3 years. It will sting hard, but they’ll still have the ability to recover considering the size of the brand they’ve built.
A more suitable outcome would be a points deduction in place for every season they’ve cheated, regardless of which league they are in. Effectively they’d be in a points deduction for nearly a decade.
Realistically it seems highly unlikely that would ever be done, but that’s what a suitable response would be.
Cynical part of me still thinks the Premier League will secretly want to make it possible for City to be among the big boys again sooner rather than later. Losing a club that is intertwined with their big title race every single year isn’t something they’d want to permanently hurt.
The strength is the unpredictability, not being a league where at best one of two teams can win, at worst it's the same team every season.
As much as I think they were probably happy when City came through and broke the dominance of Utd, freshened things up, I think now after 10/15 years of City dominance they'll be happy to cut them loose, freshen things up again.
It's not a sport to those running it, is just a brand.
Overseas viewers of the Premier League typically just want big names/teams. In fact, that 2016 season where Leicester won generated the lowest TV ratings internationally than any other recent season.Losing one of the “Big 6” effectively means about 20% less box-office matches. It’s not Bournemouth, Brighton and Coventry driving the brand of the Premier League. Man City’s current pulling power is probably worth all of the bottom half combinedFreshening up the race might interest some fans - but to the armchair fans, they actually want the familiarity of the same old names when it really comes down to it.2 -
My fear is that it will be a massive fine (£100m+) and a points penalty of 20 or 30 - enough to stop them qualifying for anything this season but not enough to relegate them.AberystwythAddick said:It won’t be as severe as people think. Too much political pressure3 -
bobmunro said:DamoNorthStand said:Stoke City are the one I would look at........ that Bet365 Stadium 'sponsorship'.......... no way they have the revenue organically to support their spend this summer.Yada, yada - "Bob, you would say this anyway!!!"Why is that then? The stadium naming rights are peanuts compared to some of the others (and are transparent, not inflated), and bet365 sponsored the stadium when the deal with Britannia ended because no other f*cker wanted it.They have spent bigger this season purely because they have spent relatively little over the past few years due to not having headroom within FFP. Here are the figures for the last 10 seasons, and two of those were in the Prem followed by two with parachute payments. Hardly splashing the cash at an average of net £7m a season.
If no one else wanted it, maybe there was no market for it... So whatever the sponsorship is, is clearly ahead of the market and a falsity?0 -
They can appeal through the high court.redman said:
I haven't read the rules in detail and I'm not a lawyer. However, I have been told by a lawyer that they can't appeal through the courts. Their only right of appeal is back to the PL commission. This is written in the PL rules. This where it is different from the case they had with UEFA, where this rule wasn't there which would have left that door open.Chris_from_Sidcup said:
If they fail with the appeal (as i expect they will), i think they'll take it all the way to the high court and try to argue the commission wasn't impartial and they didn't get a fair trial.cabbles said:I’ve never really minded City as a club, and even with the investment it at least brought another challenger into the top end of the Prem. But after today’s verdict, throw the book at them. I wonder how much pressure the owners will start to put on the UK government. I wouldn’t be surprised if their tentacles are wrapped around lots of trade, investments etc.
Agree with @MarcusH26, hope the EPL tell the owners they can’t come anywhere near English football ever again, cheating scum
If everything fails then i don't see how the owners could continue. You can't be found guilty of this over such a long period and then carry on. I'd expect they'll be forced to sell the club. As for what state the club will be in and what division it will be in, is anyones guess.
It is is also worth noting that the PL and EFL are different entities. If the PL kick them out they can't force the EFL to do anything eg which division to put them in or if any sanctions are to apply while they are in the EFL.
Points deductions, transfer embargos and huge fines are all within the PL power. Expulsion may be harder imo, but the points deduction could guarantee relegation. Players will be off but I bet City will have been very clever with the players contracts.
Not sure about the owners on this. Again important to remember the charges are against Man City FC as a company, not the owners
"a club can still bring a narrow legal challenge or claim a lack of due process/impartiality regarding the arbitral award before the English High Court under the provisions of the English Arbitration Act. This type of court proceeding does not re-examine the football or financial facts of the case, but strictly reviews whether the legal process followed proper arbitral rules and principles of fairness".0 -
Man City may now have pulling power but they didn’t 20 years ago, and it can change back again. It depends on which club replaces them. If it were Leeds, Everton or Sunderland with a large packed out noisy stadium on TV, playing in The Champions League and then signing top players, then after 5 years they would just replace Man City in their attractiveness. If it were Bournemouth or Brentford then I’m not so sure.cafctom said:
Is it really that unpredictable though? It’s more competitive than other major European leagues, but it’s the same cohort of clubs every time (with the one single Leicester exception).ForestHillAddick said:
I actually think they would be happy taking City out of the race for a while. There's been a lot of teams intertwined in the title race over the prem years, utd newcastle, utd arsenal, utd chelsea, city utd, city liverpool, city arsenal. The big teams have waxed and waned but the prem has kept growing, the brand, revenue everything.cafctom said:If this is to be handled in a way that the punishment fits the crime, then it’s going to take the Premier League/EFL/The FA collaborating on the punishment.
A massive one off points deduction which relegates them is just something that only sets them back 1-3 years. It will sting hard, but they’ll still have the ability to recover considering the size of the brand they’ve built.
A more suitable outcome would be a points deduction in place for every season they’ve cheated, regardless of which league they are in. Effectively they’d be in a points deduction for nearly a decade.
Realistically it seems highly unlikely that would ever be done, but that’s what a suitable response would be.
Cynical part of me still thinks the Premier League will secretly want to make it possible for City to be among the big boys again sooner rather than later. Losing a club that is intertwined with their big title race every single year isn’t something they’d want to permanently hurt.
The strength is the unpredictability, not being a league where at best one of two teams can win, at worst it's the same team every season.
As much as I think they were probably happy when City came through and broke the dominance of Utd, freshened things up, I think now after 10/15 years of City dominance they'll be happy to cut them loose, freshen things up again.
It's not a sport to those running it, is just a brand.
Overseas viewers of the Premier League typically just want big names/teams. In fact, that 2016 season where Leicester won generated the lowest TV ratings internationally than any other recent season.Losing one of the “Big 6” effectively means about 20% less box-office matches. It’s not Bournemouth, Brighton and Coventry driving the brand of the Premier League. Man City’s current pulling power is probably worth all of the bottom half combinedFreshening up the race might interest some fans - but to the armchair fans, they actually want the familiarity of the same old names when it really comes down to it.1 -
With the rules now it's extremely hard for anyone 'new' to break in and then sustain it. In the last 15 years, there have been 9 teams qualify for the CL.jimmymelrose said:
Man City may now have pulling power but they didn’t 20 years ago, and it can change back again. It depends on which club replaces them. If it were Leeds, Everton or Sunderland with a large packed out noisy stadium on TV, playing in The Champions League and then signing top players, then after 5 years they would just replace Man City in their attractiveness. If it were Bournemouth or Brentford then I’m not so sure.cafctom said:
Is it really that unpredictable though? It’s more competitive than other major European leagues, but it’s the same cohort of clubs every time (with the one single Leicester exception).ForestHillAddick said:
I actually think they would be happy taking City out of the race for a while. There's been a lot of teams intertwined in the title race over the prem years, utd newcastle, utd arsenal, utd chelsea, city utd, city liverpool, city arsenal. The big teams have waxed and waned but the prem has kept growing, the brand, revenue everything.cafctom said:If this is to be handled in a way that the punishment fits the crime, then it’s going to take the Premier League/EFL/The FA collaborating on the punishment.
A massive one off points deduction which relegates them is just something that only sets them back 1-3 years. It will sting hard, but they’ll still have the ability to recover considering the size of the brand they’ve built.
A more suitable outcome would be a points deduction in place for every season they’ve cheated, regardless of which league they are in. Effectively they’d be in a points deduction for nearly a decade.
Realistically it seems highly unlikely that would ever be done, but that’s what a suitable response would be.
Cynical part of me still thinks the Premier League will secretly want to make it possible for City to be among the big boys again sooner rather than later. Losing a club that is intertwined with their big title race every single year isn’t something they’d want to permanently hurt.
The strength is the unpredictability, not being a league where at best one of two teams can win, at worst it's the same team every season.
As much as I think they were probably happy when City came through and broke the dominance of Utd, freshened things up, I think now after 10/15 years of City dominance they'll be happy to cut them loose, freshen things up again.
It's not a sport to those running it, is just a brand.
Overseas viewers of the Premier League typically just want big names/teams. In fact, that 2016 season where Leicester won generated the lowest TV ratings internationally than any other recent season.Losing one of the “Big 6” effectively means about 20% less box-office matches. It’s not Bournemouth, Brighton and Coventry driving the brand of the Premier League. Man City’s current pulling power is probably worth all of the bottom half combinedFreshening up the race might interest some fans - but to the armchair fans, they actually want the familiarity of the same old names when it really comes down to it.
The 'big 6' plus Villa, Newcastle and Leicester.
With City likely on the way down, and Spurs and Man U both being pretty shit, there's a chance for someone new (perhaps Brighton, Brentford or Leeds) to get in there this season. But could they sustain it, or would they end up losing some of their best players to bigger clubs who can treble their wages?2 -
I would love them to come a cropper,just to wipe that smug grin of Denise Coats face.DamoNorthStand said:Stoke City are the one I would look at........ that Bet365 Stadium 'sponsorship'.......... no way they have the revenue organically to support their spend this summer.0 -
Really good episode of Stick to Football this morning with David Ornstein (journalist who broke the latest guilty story) and sports KC Paul Gilroy about the case.0
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I can see it now.Man City get bombed out this season and Spurs stay up at their expense.5
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No punishment announced, and this lot are trying to influence the process in their favour!Rothko said:Etihad airways playing the victims tonight, that would be same airline owned by the same government as the club
Kick them out of football sponsorship indefinitely, relegate City to non league and deduct them points for the next 5 seasons, prosecution for all concerned and ban all officials and owners from football indefinitely.
Oh, and the same for the stripey Nigels.4 -
I personally don’t want them relegated.golfaddick said:
My fear is that it will be a massive fine (£100m+) and a points penalty of 20 or 30 - enough to stop them qualifying for anything this season but not enough to relegate them.AberystwythAddick said:It won’t be as severe as people think. Too much political pressureWhy should we in the efl have to deal with the fall out of the premier league’s decisions. Just ruins the champ the next season and takes a promotion place away from a team that deserves it more than city.4 season transfer ban and minus 10 points to start the next 5 years1 -
The real problem is, if it's not Spurs that get saved by a Man City enforced relegation, it's someone else. It could be the Nigels. Nobody wants to see that.JohnBoyUK said:
I don't see the problem personally...pettgra said:I can see it now.Man City get bombed out this season and Spurs stay up at their expense.8 -
Relegation wont solve the problem,it will just deny another club promotion the following year
1)massive fine
2)Transfer ban for 5 years
3)Not allowed to play in europe for 5 years
Actively encourage all clubs that claim to have suffered financially to sue the bollocks off of them.1 -
I honestly get more pleasure watching clubs like Brighton,Brentford,Bournemouth,than watching the so called big clubs.Nothing better than seeing Brighton beat Arsenal 3-(nothing against Arsenal).These smaller clubs get where they are by good scouting and recruitment,not by chucking millions at average players who quite often turn out to be crap.I wouldnt cross the road to watch United or Liverpool this year on what we have seen so far,but Brighton and Brentford have been a joy to watch.cafctom said:
Is it really that unpredictable though? It’s more competitive than other major European leagues, but it’s the same cohort of clubs every time (with the one single Leicester exception).ForestHillAddick said:
I actually think they would be happy taking City out of the race for a while. There's been a lot of teams intertwined in the title race over the prem years, utd newcastle, utd arsenal, utd chelsea, city utd, city liverpool, city arsenal. The big teams have waxed and waned but the prem has kept growing, the brand, revenue everything.cafctom said:If this is to be handled in a way that the punishment fits the crime, then it’s going to take the Premier League/EFL/The FA collaborating on the punishment.
A massive one off points deduction which relegates them is just something that only sets them back 1-3 years. It will sting hard, but they’ll still have the ability to recover considering the size of the brand they’ve built.
A more suitable outcome would be a points deduction in place for every season they’ve cheated, regardless of which league they are in. Effectively they’d be in a points deduction for nearly a decade.
Realistically it seems highly unlikely that would ever be done, but that’s what a suitable response would be.
Cynical part of me still thinks the Premier League will secretly want to make it possible for City to be among the big boys again sooner rather than later. Losing a club that is intertwined with their big title race every single year isn’t something they’d want to permanently hurt.
The strength is the unpredictability, not being a league where at best one of two teams can win, at worst it's the same team every season.
As much as I think they were probably happy when City came through and broke the dominance of Utd, freshened things up, I think now after 10/15 years of City dominance they'll be happy to cut them loose, freshen things up again.
It's not a sport to those running it, is just a brand.
Overseas viewers of the Premier League typically just want big names/teams. In fact, that 2016 season where Leicester won generated the lowest TV ratings internationally than any other recent season.Losing one of the “Big 6” effectively means about 20% less box-office matches. It’s not Bournemouth, Brighton and Coventry driving the brand of the Premier League. Man City’s current pulling power is probably worth all of the bottom half combinedFreshening up the race might interest some fans - but to the armchair fans, they actually want the familiarity of the same old names when it really comes down to it.1 -
I've been going over the punishments in my head last few days and I can honestly say nothing really works.
There are pros and cons to everything.
* If any points deduction is given this season, it ruins the integrity of the PL. That said, the integrity is already ruined because of them. That amazing AGUEROOOOO! moment, arguably one of the greatest memorable moments in the PL, is a complete utter sham. Like when Ben Johnson won Olympic Gold in 1988 and they had it stripped off of him.
* if they get relegated, its unfair on the teams that then have to play in the same league as them.
* if a fine is given, its a let off to their owners who are richer than a 3rd world country.
* if a transfer ban is given, it will likely be overturned in a court of law down to employment rights.
Then I think I must be going soft in the head...
A relegation to the Championship is not a sufficient punishment as they'll just come straight back up again and it gets brushed under the carpet like a slapped wrist.
They need to be relegated to League 2 as a bare minimum for what they have done.
And then on top of that, as @thickandthin63 exactly says above, leave them open to be sued by all and sundry.
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You say relegation would be unfair to the league they’re relegated to.JohnBoyUK said:I've been going over the punishments in my head last few days and I can honestly say nothing really works.
L
There are pros and cons to everything.
* If any points deduction is given this season, it ruins the integrity of the PL. That said, the integrity is already ruined because of them. That amazing AGUEROOOOO! moment, arguably one of the greatest memorable moments in the PL, is a complete utter sham. Like when Ben Johnson won Olympic Gold in 1988 and they had it stripped off of him.
* if they get relegated, its unfair on the teams that then have to play in the same league as them.
* if a fine is given, its a let off to their owners who are richer than a 3rd world country.
* if a transfer ban is given, it will likely be overturned in a court of law down to employment rights.
Then I think I must be going soft in the head...
A relegation to the Championship is not a sufficient punishment as they'll just come straight back up again and it gets brushed under the carpet like a slapped wrist.
They need to be relegated to League 2 as a bare minimum for what they have done.
And then on top of that, as @thickandthin63 exactly says above, leave them open to be sued by all and sundry.
I disagree if it turns out to be the North West Counties League Premier Division.
I that scenario the loyal Manchester City fans will boost attendances (perhaps even selling out) at every away ground they play at.
Barnoldswick Town get about 300 people in at each game in a stadium that holds 1500, so that might mean 1200 extra fans in for the Manchester City game, at say £12 a pop that’s getting on for £15000 extra quid. Replicate that across the NW Counties prem and it is a financial boost for that league.8 -
I'd go for something like minus 40 points this season, plus 1 relegation. Would be an apt punishment, and keep things interesting. As a minimum next season they'd be in the Championship. If they end this season in the bottom 3 they start next season in League One.0
