Electric Cars

bobmunro · July 15

ArmchairAddick said:

Hopefully not too off topic, but how are people finding insurance for electric cars? It used to be if you had a big powerful ice car, like 3.5 V6 or something, it would of course cost you more than a little 1000cc, presumably on the basis they think you are more likely to have an accident not just the value of the car ... yet your average electric car has far greater hp potential right? (680bhp someone mentioned for the Volvo XC60!?!!?). So how does an electric compare to a model roughly equivalent?

The performance of a car (0-60mph, top speed, BHP) is not the primary factor in determining insurance costs. As important, if not more so, are:

- Costs to repair

- Profile of driver (age, driving history, married and so on)

- Annual mileage

- Use (SDP only, does it include commuting and/or business use)

- Address where the car is kept - risk of theft at that location.

- Where it is parked overnight (locked garage, off road driveway, on the street)

- Accident and theft history data of that model

Electric cars are generally more expensive to insure primarily because of the first item on that list - if the battery pack is damaged the whole battery has to be replaced, if a charging point on a wing is damaged the port, inverter and cabling all have to be replaced - and so on. Also, there are far fewer high voltage technicians than those qualified to work on ICE cars - hence labour costs are far higher.

To give you an example of how performance isn't a main factor - a year ago I replaced my Volvo XC90 (0-60 8s, top speed limited to 112 mph) with a Porsche 911 (0-60 less than 3s, top speed 194mph) and the premium was cheaper!

C.Walsh'sLoveChild · July 15

After four years and 90k in an Ioniq5, I had this ginormous thing delivered on Monday.

Carter · July 15

The performance of the van isn't in question. Its really nice to drive, accelerates smoothly and quick off the blocks.

They do feel heavy, if you are of an age where power steering was very much an optional extra on cars it feels a bit weighty. Which it would it is really heavy!

Just fed up of mincing around mcdonalds, searching for charging points that my app will recognise and generally having one eye on the range the moment I have to drive on anything other than a local road

Dippenhall · August 1

Carter said:

Hybrids are generally decent from my own personal experience of them. Plug in hybrids are the best of both and my mate next door uses his as EVs are sold to be used. Drives to and from work, a 6 mile round trip on the battery, plugs it in when he gets home and when he is doing actual miles on motorways and shit its used normally. Horrible looking thing but thats beside the point in this example.

My experience of EV remains that they are wholly impractical with normal person budgets unless you have a drive, a charger and are only doing short journeys. Increasingly me and my colleagues are now finding friends of humanity that chop away the charging cables the points and using local experience I've found several charging points that the software just doesn't work.

I maintain they are very nice to drive, air con and heaters are elite but using both has a very real impact on thr range and maddeningly I now need to plan with precision a journey more than 20 miles each way and also have a bit of luck on my side. For context this is a 50kw electric van, I've taken as much stuff out of it as I can and in real world conditions am getting under 100 miles on full charges.

From my earlier posts I have been very negative on EVs through personal experience driving family members Teslas.

But when I recently sold my beloved Audi Avant Quattro A4 (called it a day after blowing a gasket on 130,000 miles) I looked for a small SUV for mostly short urban journeys with good mpg. The days of 30,000 miles year are long gone. Cut a long story short I ended up getting a Lexus LBX hybrid.

I am a convert. First 200 miles just completed and got 61 mpg. Just did a short 4 mile round trip and it was 92mpg. Its petrol engine is a 1.5litre unit but nippy enough for an old git like me. I admit I've not yet had to make a motorway journey, but I don't intend to make many.

Fantastic value on a 2 year lease costing me £250 a month, although only 8k a year mileage, but that's where I am so works for me. So no worries about maintenance or repairs and a lovely smooth quiet drive without breaking the bank. So I am now a convert to hybrids. Still haven't changed my mind about full electric or plug in hybrid which just have too many practical drawbacks in my mind.

MrWalker · November 5

Image: https://us.v-cdn.net/5000498/uploads/editor/fm/4b4icbbpbqku.jpg

Hex · November 5

MrWalker said:

"Predicted depreciation"

MrWalker · November 5

The current actual top 5 here
https://www.whatcar.com/best/the-10-fastest-depreciating-cars/n17027

And the predictions will no doubt be altered by the inclusion of Chinese brands

Hex · November 5

MrWalker said:

The current actual top 5 here
https://www.whatcar.com/best/the-10-fastest-depreciating-cars/n17027

And the predictions will no doubt be altered by the inclusion of Chinese brands

I'll have to accept what you say as I've no intention of paying to reject Whatcar cookies.

I would expect many of the cars listed in the predicted list as they are from manufacturers late to EV production and have probably had to rush out new EV models. None of them came remotely close to being on my shortlist.

R0TW · November 5

Like the look of the Lexus at the top of that pile

MrWalker · November 5

Hex said:

MrWalker said:

The current actual top 5 here
https://www.whatcar.com/best/the-10-fastest-depreciating-cars/n17027

And the predictions will no doubt be altered by the inclusion of Chinese brands

I'll have to accept what you say as I've no intention of paying to reject Whatcar cookies.

I would expect many of the cars listed in the predicted list as they are from manufacturers late to EV production and have probably had to rush out new EV models. None of them came remotely close to being on my shortlist.

Seems a pop up free page for me. If you havent seen it how do you know if your chosen cars are included?
This thread is on electric cars.
All the data suggests they depreciate much faster than others - understandable as second hand buyers worry about battery replacement and the exorbitant costs associated with such a necessity.
I think that's a valid input to a thread on electric cars.

Bridge Classic Cars did their own comparisons last year;

1. Fiat 500e (-52.0%) vs. MINI Cooper (-17.3%)

The Fiat 500e is a stylish EV but its 52% depreciation in its first 12 months means you would probably be better off buying a nearly new one for pretty much half price. On the flip side to that, the petrol-powered MINI Cooper held its value much better, depreciating by just over 17% in its first year.

2. Vauxhall Corsa Electric (-54.8%) vs. Petrol Corsa (-34.3%)

The Corsa Electric suffers from fairly rapid depreciation, losing more than 50% of its value in the first 12 months. While the petrol-powered Corsa held its value better, it still lost more than 30% in 12 months.

3. Mercedes-AMG EQS (-48.9%) vs. Mercedes-AMG S-Class (-15.5%)

The all-electric EQS lost nearly half its value in 12 months, while its combustion-engine counterpart, the S-Class, depreciated less.

4. MG ZS EV (-41.8%) vs. MG ZS (-27.8%)

The electric version of MG’s affordable SUV takes a big dive in value, while the petrol version holds up better.

5. Hyundai Ioniq 5 (-41.8%) vs. BMW X1 35M (-12.2%)

The Ioniq 5 lost over £22,000 in a year, whereas the BMW X1 depreciated by 12.2%.

6. BMW i4 (-37.8%) vs. BMW 3-Series (-28.1%)

The all-electric BMW i4 drops value faster than its petrol alternative, the 3-Series.

7. Kia EV6 (-40.8%) vs. Range Rover Evoque (-31.5%)

The Kia EV6’s style and cool gadgets weren’t enough to save it from steep depreciation. However, the Evoque, considered a premium SUV, loses value at a slower rate.

8. BMW M8 (-43.3%) vs. Porsche 911 Turbo S (-21.0%)

The BMW M8 saw a dramatic drop in value, while the Porsche 911 Turbo S held its value better.

9. Maserati Gran Turismo (-41.3%) vs. Aston Martin DB12 (-26.1%)

Both luxury cars lost value, but the Maserati’s drop was more severe.

10. Porsche Taycan S (-47.6%) vs. Porsche Panamera (-33.9%)

The Taycan, Porsche’s flagship EV, depreciates heavily compared to the Panamera. This does seem to show that there is continued strength in internal combustion within the luxury market.

Kelly's Blue Book recently published this top ten list in the USA - not sure which manufacturers are late to EV

1. Nissan Leaf (Electric hatchback)
2. Jaguar I-Pace (Luxury electric SUV)
3. Mercedes-Benz EQS (Luxury electric sedan)
4. Audi A8 (Flagship luxury sedan)
5. BMW 7 Series / i7 (Luxury sedan / electric flagship)
6. Mazda MX-30 (Electric crossover)
7. Lexus UX300e (Electric compact SUV)
8. DS 9 (Luxury PHEV sedan)
9. Fiat 500e (Electric city car)
10. GWM Ora 03 (Electric hatchback)

cfgs · November 5

This month's trade magazine, produced by National Firefighters Union, is all about the dangers of EVs. Still no solution to the problem of how to put them out.

Hex · November 5

cfgs said:

This month's trade magazine, produced by National Firefighters Union, is all about the dangers of EVs. Still no solution to the problem of how to put them out.

Luckily (?) EVs are much less likely to catch fire, though. On a comparable basis, for every EV that catches fire between 20 and 60 petrol/diesel cars go up in flames.

Hex · November 5

MrWalker said:

Hex said:

MrWalker said:

The current actual top 5 here
https://www.whatcar.com/best/the-10-fastest-depreciating-cars/n17027

And the predictions will no doubt be altered by the inclusion of Chinese brands

I'll have to accept what you say as I've no intention of paying to reject Whatcar cookies.

I would expect many of the cars listed in the predicted list as they are from manufacturers late to EV production and have probably had to rush out new EV models. None of them came remotely close to being on my shortlist.

Seems a pop up free page for me. If you havent seen it how do you know if your chosen cars are included?
This thread is on electric cars.
All the data suggests they depreciate much faster than others - understandable as second hand buyers worry about battery replacement and the exorbitant costs associated with such a necessity.
I think that's a valid input to a thread on electric cars.
.....

The list I referred to was the predictions you posted above.
I have a Volvo XC40 EV which is almost 3yrs old. The final decision was that or an Ioniq 5 which is on your latest list. The aim with my cars is to keep them 10yrs so depreciation isn't an issue. Battery replacement costs are very variable so not necessarily a huge hurdle to overcome especially with 7yr warranties. And with the greatly increasing fuel costs 2nd hand EVs are in demand.

MrWalker · November 5

Hex said:

MrWalker said:

Hex said:

MrWalker said:

The current actual top 5 here
https://www.whatcar.com/best/the-10-fastest-depreciating-cars/n17027

And the predictions will no doubt be altered by the inclusion of Chinese brands

I'll have to accept what you say as I've no intention of paying to reject Whatcar cookies.

I would expect many of the cars listed in the predicted list as they are from manufacturers late to EV production and have probably had to rush out new EV models. None of them came remotely close to being on my shortlist.

Seems a pop up free page for me. If you havent seen it how do you know if your chosen cars are included?
This thread is on electric cars.
All the data suggests they depreciate much faster than others - understandable as second hand buyers worry about battery replacement and the exorbitant costs associated with such a necessity.
I think that's a valid input to a thread on electric cars.
.....

The list I referred to was the predictions you posted above.
I have a Volvo XC40 EV which is almost 3yrs old. The final decision was that or an Ioniq 5 which is on your latest list. The aim with my cars is to keep them 10yrs so depreciation isn't an issue. Battery replacement costs are very variable so not necessarily a huge hurdle to overcome especially with 7yr warranties. And with the greatly increasing fuel costs 2nd hand EVs are in demand.

If they are in demand, why are the second hand prices the lowest of all vehicles?

MrWalker · November 5

Hex said:

cfgs said:

This month's trade magazine, produced by National Firefighters Union, is all about the dangers of EVs. Still no solution to the problem of how to put them out.

Luckily (?) EVs are much less likely to catch fire, though. On a comparable basis, for every EV that catches fire between 20 and 60 petrol/diesel cars go up in flames.

While EV fires are much rarer, lithium-ion battery fires burn very hot, can be difficult to extinguish, and have the potential to reignite hours or days later

Hex · November 5

MrWalker said:

Hex said:

cfgs said:

This month's trade magazine, produced by National Firefighters Union, is all about the dangers of EVs. Still no solution to the problem of how to put them out.

Luckily (?) EVs are much less likely to catch fire, though. On a comparable basis, for every EV that catches fire between 20 and 60 petrol/diesel cars go up in flames.

While EV fires are much rarer, lithium-ion battery fires burn very hot, can be difficult to extinguish, and have the potential to reignite hours or days later

I'm aware but I have never driven in fear of my car catching fire and now it's even less likely. On a similar subject they've just issued new building regs covering solar batteries - not allowed in lofts, cupboards, under stairs or outside within 1m of doors or windows.

Raith_C_Chattonell · November 6

.

cfgs · November 6

Hex said:

MrWalker said:

Hex said:

cfgs said:

This month's trade magazine, produced by National Firefighters Union, is all about the dangers of EVs. Still no solution to the problem of how to put them out.

Luckily (?) EVs are much less likely to catch fire, though. On a comparable basis, for every EV that catches fire between 20 and 60 petrol/diesel cars go up in flames.

While EV fires are much rarer, lithium-ion battery fires burn very hot, can be difficult to extinguish, and have the potential to reignite hours or days later

I'm aware but I have never driven in fear of my car catching fire and now it's even less likely. On a similar subject they've just issued new building regs covering solar batteries - not allowed in lofts, cupboards, under stairs or outside within 1m of doors or windows.

Solar panels are great but a pain in a fire. We have to isolate them in lots of places and even then the panels and the wires from them are still producing electricity, so a potential killer. We spray foam over them to stop this which isn't easy, but I think they are necessary.

cantersaddick · November 6

MrWalker said:

Hex said:

cfgs said:

This month's trade magazine, produced by National Firefighters Union, is all about the dangers of EVs. Still no solution to the problem of how to put them out.

Luckily (?) EVs are much less likely to catch fire, though. On a comparable basis, for every EV that catches fire between 20 and 60 petrol/diesel cars go up in flames.

While EV fires are much rarer, lithium-ion battery fires burn very hot, can be difficult to extinguish, and have the potential to reignite hours or days later

The issues with Lithium-ion battteries and fires are well reported not just in cars but in smaller devices on planes and trains etc. As you say there is no current solution to that problem and I'm not sure one is really viable. But and I think this is the really key factor - I dont think anyone thinks Lithium-Ion batteries are the long term solution in this space. Its largely expected that solid state or Sodium-ion batteries will take over electricity storage in pretty much all settings in the medium term. Which is probably the reason a solution hasnt been forthcoming.

MrWalker · November 6

Is hydrogen the answer for vehicles?

cantersaddick · November 6

MrWalker said:

Is hydrogen the answer for vehicles?

Hopefully but that is further away from being ready it seems

valleynick66 · November 6

Surely EV charging / per mile costs will increase in the future as the government will need to replace lost fuel taxes.

The savings are now / short term.

I suspect given also the uncertainty on battery replacement costs means they are best acquired on lease or PCP so the depreciation is already priced in.

bobmunro · November 6