EFL Playoffs 25/26 (Saints booted out of final and given 4 point deduction - pg34)

PrincessFiona

ShootersHillGuru said:

North Lower Neil said:

Proper mess, given Southampton seem to have all but admitted it's not just been the Boro game.

If they chuck them out and Hull get a walkover (thank goodness Hull beat Millwall, on that point), then Boro will appeal, but if it's been all season then Wrexham (and their expensive lawyers) could have a solid argument they should be in the playoffs, Millwall could say they'd have beaten Wrexham rather than Hull... if Boro are put in the final, and beat Hull, Hull could argue they'd prepared for Southampton and were at an unfair advantage.

Some arguments are more remote from the issue than others, but there's quite a few issues to think about for the EFL.

I think the line of previous possible outcomes needs to be written off. How do we know Southampton didn’t spy on us at Sparrows before tearing us a new one at The Valley. Do we have a claim ? Of course not. It would need the season and all results involving Saints or maybe sinners might be more appropriate to be looked at. What does need addressing is their continued involvement in the playoffs which cannot be allowed. Boro should be reinstated and contest the final v Hull. That alone is not enough punishment though. I believe they ought to be relegated and receive a points deduction. Cheating in sport is inexcusable and where found should be harshly punished. 

I agree. But it's not as though cheating of sorts doesn't go on in virtually every match by way of 'sportsmanship'; fake/exaggerated injuries, play in the penalty area being more like rugby etc . Not sure where the line is drawn but Southampton are certainly on the wrong side of Saints and Sinners, despite their nickname

fenaddick

Covered_End_Lad said:

Rumours they will get a 3.5m fine and 6 point suspended deduction, seems very lenient to me.

Any rumours are just that, the panel haven’t even met yet!!

PrincessFiona

fenaddick said:

Covered_End_Lad said:

Rumours they will get a 3.5m fine and 6 point suspended deduction, seems very lenient to me.

Any rumours are just that, the panel haven’t even met yet!!

but not play in the final - as the points deduction would be in the Championship?

The Red Robin

Fanny Fanackapan said:

My only comment on this issue is we have no idea whether this practice is common place, rampant even, among clubs in general whether in the EPL or non league ....Who's to say or would admit to it ? 

Southampton's patsy just happened to be "caught " .

I don’t understand the need to do it either. Clubs pay for software that allows you to watch every single second, split by set pieces, minute, players etc of any team of any game. 

PrincessFiona

The Red Robin said:

Fanny Fanackapan said:

My only comment on this issue is we have no idea whether this practice is common place, rampant even, among clubs in general whether in the EPL or non league ....Who's to say or would admit to it ? 

Southampton's patsy just happened to be "caught " .

I don’t understand the need to do it either. Clubs pay for software that allows you to watch every single second, split by set pieces, minute, players etc of any team of any game. 

True but spying on training before a match could give clues about specific tactics, set pieces they are working on etc specifically for the upcoming match?

Covered End

Lincsaddick said:

blackpool72 said:

Fine them a couple of million and give the money to Middlesbrough by way of compensation. 

Boro are considering suing for £20 Million, lost revenue from Prem fixtures etc .. 20 Mil is surely the least they will lose

Considering they could/could've lose/lost to Hull in the final, that will likely hold no merit.
You can't sue for something that might happen (I believe).

cabbles

I would imagine that if the game goes ahead as planned, a lot of neutrals would like to see Hull win 

fenaddick

cabbles said:

I would imagine that if the game goes ahead as planned, a lot of neutrals would like to see Hull win 

As will the EFL

jose

I know it's a what if, but what if Boro had put Southampton out, but still it is evident that Southampton were spying last season?

eastterrace6168

jose said:

I know it's a what if, but what if Boro had put Southampton out, but still it is evident that Southampton were spying last season?

50% of this thread would have been irrelevant...🤷‍♂️

ShootersHillGuru

jose said:

I know it's a what if, but what if Boro had put Southampton out, but still it is evident that Southampton were spying last season?

They would have still been guilty of breaking a specific rule and cheating. Deduction of 20 points would be my punishment for them. Cheating is cheating and needs to be harshly punished.

North Lower Neil

jose said:

I know it's a what if, but what if Boro had put Southampton out, but still it is evident that Southampton were spying last season?

Would have been a lot simpler - fine, bit of a points deduction next season, done.

It being the playoffs has made it a lot more complicated.

IdleHans

Well I've just cashed out my bet on Southampton to get promoted, which means they will

valleynick66

Seems like an unworkable rule. 

No sanction really works fairly for all. 

I’m far from convinced any material advantage / disadvantage is created by the so called ‘spying’. 

The whole thing about Football is that every match in every competition has the potential to be an ‘unexpected’ outcome. 

On a pragmatic level and aligned to other potential misdemeanours by clubs (over spending / players diving / cynical fouls / players being tapped up ahead of transfers etc) I think only a steep financial and points penalty is appropriate. 

Those in glass houses concerns me too as how can any club be certain they haven’t gleaned inside information on tactics / injuries etc that they should not?

Leuth

'they should be relegated' lmao get a grip

fenaddick

valleynick66 said:

Seems like an unworkable rule. 

No sanction really works fairly for all. 

I’m far from convinced any material advantage / disadvantage is created by the so called ‘spying’. 

The whole thing about Football is that every match in every competition has the potential to be an ‘unexpected’ outcome. 

On a pragmatic level and aligned to other potential misdemeanours by clubs (over spending / players diving / cynical fouls / players being tapped up ahead of transfers etc) I think only a steep financial and points penalty is appropriate. 

Those in glass houses concerns me too as how can any club be certain they haven’t gleaned inside information on tactics / injuries etc that they should not?

If there's no potential advantage why bother doing it?

stoneroses19

jose said:

I know it's a what if, but what if Boro had put Southampton out, but still it is evident that Southampton were spying last season?

Nothing would change.

Southampton aren’t being independently checked because they won the semi finals, they are being checked for cheating. 

Win or lose against Boro and Southampton would still be in this situation of being accused and checked of cheating. The possibility of them being promoted in a few days time does of course add to the situation and how best to punish them (if, as seems obvious, they are guilty). 

MuttleyCAFC

They should have an enforced change of their nickname from Saints to Cheats.

Chris_from_Sidcup

Lincsaddick said:

blackpool72 said:

Fine them a couple of million and give the money to Middlesbrough by way of compensation. 

Boro are considering suing for £20 Million, lost revenue from Prem fixtures etc .. 20 Mil is surely the least they will lose

Absolute nonsense claim if they do. If they'd lost a final to Southampton they'd maybe have a case but on what grounds can they sue for 20m when there's no guarantee they'd have beaten Hull?

And why 20m, why not the 100-150m that PL teams get?  I think that claim gets laughed out of court.

ShootersHillGuru

I’m astonished that so many are dismissing this breach of rule 127 as something relatively unimportant and not deserving of the harshest of punishments. Sport. All sport is about fair play and achieving a victory through endeavour, ability and skill. Any departure from that in my view makes the whole point of sporting competition meaningless. Like taking performance enhancing drugs to gain an unfair advantage. It’s despicable and wrong on every level. Southampton it would appear sought to gain an advantage over their opponents by looking at specifics of Boro’s preparations. Rule 127 was broken. I realise my proposed sanction is highly unlikely but a severe punishment with a minimum of being kicked out of the final seems fair. If Southampton are allowed to play at Wembley and should they win they are guaranteed a minimum of £110 million in tv rights alone. A fine is meaningless and a points deduction cannot be mandated to be carried over into The Premier League. That would require The Premier League to agree. 

jose

Understandably the ‘spy gate’ thread on Saintsweb see the whole thing as a bit of a joke.
I think it is because they don’t want to contemplate the reality and its implications, it is not gallows humour.
We should find out today.

ShootersHillGuru

jose said:

Understandably the ‘spy gate’ thread on Saintsweb see the whole thing as a bit of a joke.
I think it is because they don’t want to contemplate the reality and its implications, it is not gallows humour.
We should find out today.

I doubt we’ll find out the punishment today. Tomorrow lunch time. would be my guess, based on BBC reports

AllHailTheHen

Think part of this is the accusation that Southampton have done it more than once which makes it bigger than just the Boro games and the punishment should be in line with that. If anything id like Southampton to get the boot just for Harwood-Bellis being a proper wanker in the 2nd leg.

valleynick66

fenaddick said:

valleynick66 said:

Seems like an unworkable rule. 

No sanction really works fairly for all. 

I’m far from convinced any material advantage / disadvantage is created by the so called ‘spying’. 

The whole thing about Football is that every match in every competition has the potential to be an ‘unexpected’ outcome. 

On a pragmatic level and aligned to other potential misdemeanours by clubs (over spending / players diving / cynical fouls / players being tapped up ahead of transfers etc) I think only a steep financial and points penalty is appropriate. 

Those in glass houses concerns me too as how can any club be certain they haven’t gleaned inside information on tactics / injuries etc that they should not?

If there's no potential advantage why bother doing it?

As I said ‘material’ was my point. 

Also as I’ve seen it reported the rule is something like 72 hours before the match in question and not a blanket ban on observing. 

Feels to me that even if you thought you knew how another team might set up then so what. Teams alter mid match and suffer injuries etc. Feels marginal to me. 

My point also though if the rule doesn’t define a penalty then it’s ill thought out. 

ShootersHillGuru

valleynick66 said:

fenaddick said:

valleynick66 said:

Seems like an unworkable rule. 

No sanction really works fairly for all. 

I’m far from convinced any material advantage / disadvantage is created by the so called ‘spying’. 

The whole thing about Football is that every match in every competition has the potential to be an ‘unexpected’ outcome. 

On a pragmatic level and aligned to other potential misdemeanours by clubs (over spending / players diving / cynical fouls / players being tapped up ahead of transfers etc) I think only a steep financial and points penalty is appropriate. 

Those in glass houses concerns me too as how can any club be certain they haven’t gleaned inside information on tactics / injuries etc that they should not?

If there's no potential advantage why bother doing it?

As I said ‘material’ was my point. 

Also as I’ve seen it reported the rule is something like 72 hours before the match in question and not a blanket ban on observing. 

Feels to me that even if you thought you knew how another team might set up then so what. Teams alter mid match and suffer injuries etc. Feels marginal to me. 

My point also though if the rule doesn’t define a penalty then it’s ill thought out. 

Set up possibly but what about set pieces for example. If Southampton didn’t think they were going to gain out of it then they wouldn’t have done it. They cheated and were caught. 

PrincessFiona

valleynick66 said:

Seems like an unworkable rule. 

No sanction really works fairly for all. 

I’m far from convinced any material advantage / disadvantage is created by the so called ‘spying’. 

The whole thing about Football is that every match in every competition has the potential to be an ‘unexpected’ outcome. 

On a pragmatic level and aligned to other potential misdemeanours by clubs (over spending / players diving / cynical fouls / players being tapped up ahead of transfers etc) I think only a steep financial and points penalty is appropriate. 

Those in glass houses concerns me too as how can any club be certain they haven’t gleaned inside information on tactics / injuries etc that they should not?

If there was no material advagtage to the spying, then why do it?

killerandflash

PrincessFiona said:

The Red Robin said:

Fanny Fanackapan said:

My only comment on this issue is we have no idea whether this practice is common place, rampant even, among clubs in general whether in the EPL or non league ....Who's to say or would admit to it ? 

Southampton's patsy just happened to be "caught " .

I don’t understand the need to do it either. Clubs pay for software that allows you to watch every single second, split by set pieces, minute, players etc of any team of any game. 

True but spying on training before a match could give clues about specific tactics, set pieces they are working on etc specifically for the upcoming match?

I imagine Soton wanted to know whether Hayden Hackney was fit or not, which would be very useful to know.

PrincessFiona

killerandflash said:

PrincessFiona said:

The Red Robin said:

Fanny Fanackapan said:

My only comment on this issue is we have no idea whether this practice is common place, rampant even, among clubs in general whether in the EPL or non league ....Who's to say or would admit to it ? 

Southampton's patsy just happened to be "caught " .

I don’t understand the need to do it either. Clubs pay for software that allows you to watch every single second, split by set pieces, minute, players etc of any team of any game. 

True but spying on training before a match could give clues about specific tactics, set pieces they are working on etc specifically for the upcoming match?

I imagine Soton wanted to know whether Hayden Hackney was fit or not, which would be very useful to know.

yes, who was fit, who was likely to be playing, formation etc

eastterrace6168

ShootersHillGuru said:

I’m astonished that so many are dismissing this breach of rule 127 as something relatively unimportant and not deserving of the harshest of punishments. Sport. All sport is about fair play and achieving a victory through endeavour, ability and skill. Any departure from that in my view makes the whole point of sporting competition meaningless. Like taking performance enhancing drugs to gain an unfair advantage. It’s despicable and wrong on every level. Southampton it would appear sought to gain an advantage over their opponents by looking at specifics of Boro’s preparations. Rule 127 was broken. I realise my proposed sanction is highly unlikely but a severe punishment with a minimum of being kicked out of the final seems fair. If Southampton are allowed to play at Wembley and should they win they are guaranteed a minimum of £110 million in tv rights alone. A fine is meaningless and a points deduction cannot be mandated to be carried over into The Premier League. That would require The Premier League to agree. 

1000% agree, you just know they will get away with it...

PrincessFiona

eastterrace6168 said:

ShootersHillGuru said:

I’m astonished that so many are dismissing this breach of rule 127 as something relatively unimportant and not deserving of the harshest of punishments. Sport. All sport is about fair play and achieving a victory through endeavour, ability and skill. Any departure from that in my view makes the whole point of sporting competition meaningless. Like taking performance enhancing drugs to gain an unfair advantage. It’s despicable and wrong on every level. Southampton it would appear sought to gain an advantage over their opponents by looking at specifics of Boro’s preparations. Rule 127 was broken. I realise my proposed sanction is highly unlikely but a severe punishment with a minimum of being kicked out of the final seems fair. If Southampton are allowed to play at Wembley and should they win they are guaranteed a minimum of £110 million in tv rights alone. A fine is meaningless and a points deduction cannot be mandated to be carried over into The Premier League. That would require The Premier League to agree. 

1000% agree, you just know they will get away with it...

will be interesting to see the reaction and any counter-action if they do