POST-MATCH THREAD: Cardiff City v Charlton Athletic: Saturday 19th September 2026: KO 12:30

killerandflash

ElfsborgAddick said:

sirjohnhumphrey said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

sirjohnhumphrey said:

I’m a Jones fan and an eternal optimist. I try and see the positives and accept there will be negatives. 

But that was really poor. I always worry when the manager questions the desire and effort of their team. I worry when he says some players aren’t at the level we need. I worry when the same issues (namely the opposition midfield being able to run through ours at will most games).

I don’t know why, maybe because I sense a little bit of discontent in the squad and some uncertainty with the ownership, but I’m starting Jones may not be here at the end of the season. 

I hope I’m wrong as it will mean we are ok this division but I just have a feeling.

If we have an atmosphere already this is going to be a disastrous season.

It’s just a feeling. I don’t normally resort to what could be considered a fairly knee jerk sentiment but the last two away games, and even to some extent the QPR game have made me think a bit deeper as to what the issue is. 

I think there are some odd choices and decisions being made but maybe this international break is just what management, players and fans need.

All the whilst the money men are 'happy' being the bottom six of spends for players then we'll go down eventually.

We've spent plenty of money in the Championship. But not very well.

You can't keep spending 7 figure sums on players, giving them 4 year deals, then bombing them out after 6 months or a year. Or letting them rot on the bench, like Knibbs. 

And with the 25 man squad limit, we've had to pay Doc off to leave, and are paying Burke to do nothing until January. 

1968CAFC

Dazzler21 said:

Calling for Jones head already... Could almost count on it at the first hiccup. 

Calling already for NJs head is totally moronic 
but unfortunately every football club has a few morons 🤩😂😂😂😂

SELR_addicks

NabySarr said:

12 points from 8, only our second defeat of the season and there’s threads asking if Jones is under pressure and demanding Phil Chapple out. Yes it was shit today, but fucking hell

Those early season wins are papering over some major cracks. We are bad, the stats say we're bad and we're playing bad. 

I don't think Jones should go but I think in two months we won't be talking about how many points we have and instead be looking firmly over our shoulder. 

SELR_addicks

Garrymanilow said:

A bit of an all-timer on here this evening. On the one hand it’s a shame there’s no upcoming game to put this one behind us but on the other hand I think some of you could really benefit from the three weeks off. I dread to think what another couple of bad results this month would do to people

You said yourself you didn't watch the game so don't really have a reason to be knocking people that sat through it. 

aliwibble

booshjames said:

[snip]

I’d have Coventry (such an intelligent tackler and denier of space, far more progressive than Skipp) as my pivot, dropping Knibbs/JRC back to play alongside him. Both Knibbs and JRC are naturally more forward-thinking/technical, as they’re used to playing further up the pitch, while still possessing the physical attributes to compete/dominate in the busiest part of the pitch (Knibbs = height and presence, JRC = great engine and combative).

[snip]

JRC = great engine? In 20-30 minute cameos maybe, but he never looks up to it as a starter.

Fanny Fanackapan

killerandflash said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

sirjohnhumphrey said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

sirjohnhumphrey said:

I’m a Jones fan and an eternal optimist. I try and see the positives and accept there will be negatives. 

But that was really poor. I always worry when the manager questions the desire and effort of their team. I worry when he says some players aren’t at the level we need. I worry when the same issues (namely the opposition midfield being able to run through ours at will most games).

I don’t know why, maybe because I sense a little bit of discontent in the squad and some uncertainty with the ownership, but I’m starting Jones may not be here at the end of the season. 

I hope I’m wrong as it will mean we are ok this division but I just have a feeling.

If we have an atmosphere already this is going to be a disastrous season.

It’s just a feeling. I don’t normally resort to what could be considered a fairly knee jerk sentiment but the last two away games, and even to some extent the QPR game have made me think a bit deeper as to what the issue is. 

I think there are some odd choices and decisions being made but maybe this international break is just what management, players and fans need.

All the whilst the money men are 'happy' being the bottom six of spends for players then we'll go down eventually.

We've spent plenty of money in the Championship. But not very well.

You can't keep spending 7 figure sums on players, giving them 4 year deals, then bombing them out after 6 months or a year. Or letting them rot on the bench, like Knibbs. 

And with the 25 man squad limit, we've had to pay Doc off to leave, and are paying Burke to do nothing until January. 

This. Indeed, seems highly unlikely that Knibbs will be entering the field of play anytime soon  (for whatever reason) or indeed, Apter. 

How the hell do players in such situations stay match fit or even show they have a part to play unless given the opportunity ? I can't understand why those finding themselves in that unenviable position can't play in U21 matches ie maximum of one per game. Ditto for those returning from injury as happens rarely these days. 

Surely this would have benefits for both the young players involved as well as those trying to secure another chance. A win win ( hopefully!) situation & additional motivation for our sidelined squad players. 

Blucher

aliwibble said:

booshjames said:

[snip]

I’d have Coventry (such an intelligent tackler and denier of space, far more progressive than Skipp) as my pivot, dropping Knibbs/JRC back to play alongside him. Both Knibbs and JRC are naturally more forward-thinking/technical, as they’re used to playing further up the pitch, while still possessing the physical attributes to compete/dominate in the busiest part of the pitch (Knibbs = height and presence, JRC = great engine and combative).

[snip]

JRC = great engine? In 20-30 minute cameos maybe, but he never looks up to it as a starter.

Agreed - even in some of those cameos, JRC looks as if he’s blowing out of his arse. He can certainly pick a pass but an athlete he is not.

fenaddick

killerandflash said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

sirjohnhumphrey said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

sirjohnhumphrey said:

I’m a Jones fan and an eternal optimist. I try and see the positives and accept there will be negatives. 

But that was really poor. I always worry when the manager questions the desire and effort of their team. I worry when he says some players aren’t at the level we need. I worry when the same issues (namely the opposition midfield being able to run through ours at will most games).

I don’t know why, maybe because I sense a little bit of discontent in the squad and some uncertainty with the ownership, but I’m starting Jones may not be here at the end of the season. 

I hope I’m wrong as it will mean we are ok this division but I just have a feeling.

If we have an atmosphere already this is going to be a disastrous season.

It’s just a feeling. I don’t normally resort to what could be considered a fairly knee jerk sentiment but the last two away games, and even to some extent the QPR game have made me think a bit deeper as to what the issue is. 

I think there are some odd choices and decisions being made but maybe this international break is just what management, players and fans need.

All the whilst the money men are 'happy' being the bottom six of spends for players then we'll go down eventually.

We've spent plenty of money in the Championship. But not very well.

You can't keep spending 7 figure sums on players, giving them 4 year deals, then bombing them out after 6 months or a year. Or letting them rot on the bench, like Knibbs. 

And with the 25 man squad limit, we've had to pay Doc off to leave, and are paying Burke to do nothing until January. 

By Championship standards we’ve spent absolute peanuts 

MarcusH26

fenaddick said:

killerandflash said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

sirjohnhumphrey said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

sirjohnhumphrey said:

I’m a Jones fan and an eternal optimist. I try and see the positives and accept there will be negatives. 

But that was really poor. I always worry when the manager questions the desire and effort of their team. I worry when he says some players aren’t at the level we need. I worry when the same issues (namely the opposition midfield being able to run through ours at will most games).

I don’t know why, maybe because I sense a little bit of discontent in the squad and some uncertainty with the ownership, but I’m starting Jones may not be here at the end of the season. 

I hope I’m wrong as it will mean we are ok this division but I just have a feeling.

If we have an atmosphere already this is going to be a disastrous season.

It’s just a feeling. I don’t normally resort to what could be considered a fairly knee jerk sentiment but the last two away games, and even to some extent the QPR game have made me think a bit deeper as to what the issue is. 

I think there are some odd choices and decisions being made but maybe this international break is just what management, players and fans need.

All the whilst the money men are 'happy' being the bottom six of spends for players then we'll go down eventually.

We've spent plenty of money in the Championship. But not very well.

You can't keep spending 7 figure sums on players, giving them 4 year deals, then bombing them out after 6 months or a year. Or letting them rot on the bench, like Knibbs. 

And with the 25 man squad limit, we've had to pay Doc off to leave, and are paying Burke to do nothing until January. 

By Championship standards we’ve spent absolute peanuts 

We've probably spent the TV Money difference last summer and this summer will have been mainly on wages for the new contracts and free agents like  Grant and Danny Mac and loan fees for the likes of Bidon,Ouma and Skipp , actual transfer fees we've maybe spent £4m including the 1.7m on Sichenje from Jan. 

Don't want to hear Rodwell talking about net spend. 

AberystwythAddick

This could be a very rough October. Appreciate there no easy games in the champ but that is an awful run of fixtures to come back too

MuttleyCAFC

Footvall is a funny game and it can turn around. The tactics away probably need reviewing. We need Billy back. We also need Chalobah back but that sounds like it might be wishful thinking.

Garrymanilow

SELR_addicks said:

Garrymanilow said:

A bit of an all-timer on here this evening. On the one hand it’s a shame there’s no upcoming game to put this one behind us but on the other hand I think some of you could really benefit from the three weeks off. I dread to think what another couple of bad results this month would do to people

You said yourself you didn't watch the game so don't really have a reason to be knocking people that sat through it. 

I mean, I didn’t see it because I was at the women’s game. They lost 4-1 so I definitely did my time today. I’m not knocking anyone though, I’m just commenting what I’ve seen on the forum today. A new Jones thread, a Chapple out thread, people thanking the lord Ouma is only on loan and talking about bombing Alli out until he can be loaned away in January. It’s like a whole forum of yous this evening, and that’s a good a reason as any for a three week calm down. 

killerandflash

fenaddick said:

killerandflash said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

sirjohnhumphrey said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

sirjohnhumphrey said:

I’m a Jones fan and an eternal optimist. I try and see the positives and accept there will be negatives. 

But that was really poor. I always worry when the manager questions the desire and effort of their team. I worry when he says some players aren’t at the level we need. I worry when the same issues (namely the opposition midfield being able to run through ours at will most games).

I don’t know why, maybe because I sense a little bit of discontent in the squad and some uncertainty with the ownership, but I’m starting Jones may not be here at the end of the season. 

I hope I’m wrong as it will mean we are ok this division but I just have a feeling.

If we have an atmosphere already this is going to be a disastrous season.

It’s just a feeling. I don’t normally resort to what could be considered a fairly knee jerk sentiment but the last two away games, and even to some extent the QPR game have made me think a bit deeper as to what the issue is. 

I think there are some odd choices and decisions being made but maybe this international break is just what management, players and fans need.

All the whilst the money men are 'happy' being the bottom six of spends for players then we'll go down eventually.

We've spent plenty of money in the Championship. But not very well.

You can't keep spending 7 figure sums on players, giving them 4 year deals, then bombing them out after 6 months or a year. Or letting them rot on the bench, like Knibbs. 

And with the 25 man squad limit, we've had to pay Doc off to leave, and are paying Burke to do nothing until January. 

By Championship standards we’ve spent absolute peanuts 

Not when compared with the " bottom 3rd" teams. We spent more last summer than Lincoln,  Cardiff and Bolton have spent this summer.

The Prince-e-Paul

CH4RLTON said:

We are in the playoffs guys be happy, if someone would have said top 8 going in to the international break we would all of taken it 

I think it is about trajectory. If we'd won none of the first 5, then won 3 on the trot, we'd now be thinking the team has clicked, and NJ has found the way to win in this league, having worked out his best team (and has the right players available). Sadly we are dropping like a proverbial brick (3 Pts from 15), and unless NJ finds a system that works for group of players out of form and with questionable quality and attitude, then there is a serious problem right now and going forwards!

I feel sorry for Mrs NJ this next few weeks. He'd better get to church tomorrow and say some prayers because the previous ones haven't been heard, similar to his training instructions! 

cabbles

Garrymanilow said:

SELR_addicks said:

Garrymanilow said:

A bit of an all-timer on here this evening. On the one hand it’s a shame there’s no upcoming game to put this one behind us but on the other hand I think some of you could really benefit from the three weeks off. I dread to think what another couple of bad results this month would do to people

You said yourself you didn't watch the game so don't really have a reason to be knocking people that sat through it. 

I mean, I didn’t see it because I was at the women’s game. They lost 4-1 so I definitely did my time today. I’m not knocking anyone though, I’m just commenting what I’ve seen on the forum today. A new Jones thread, a Chapple out thread, people thanking the lord Ouma is only on loan and talking about bombing Alli out until he can be loaned away in January. It’s like a whole forum of yous this evening, and that’s a good a reason as any for a three week calm down. 

Agree - the intl break is coming at a good time as I think NJ needs some space to reflect and it eats into Koumetio/Ramsay/Chalobah’s injuries etc - not that any of them will be back for certain come October, but every week helps.  I also think that despite all of us and McNamara quite rightly saying we want to see put right asap and the players would want to go again next week, we need the break.

The test will be once we resume.  I can completely understand the reaction on here today after the last 5 games.  Aside from the 1st half against Pompey, we’ve struggled to look like we’re in the game.  Derby, Preston and West Ham feel like a distant memory, and we’ve played some turgid football in the interim.  Add to the fact our recruitment record under NJ is very hit and miss (Tanto/Apter/Knibbs/JRC), it’s no surprise people are questioning Alli, Grant and Ouma.  

We need more from the players than we’ve seen in the last 5.  Perhaps the break will help, I hope it does.  

ElfsborgAddick

golfaddick said:

th0rryy said:

It's a very poor performance against a team we are probably going to be scrapping against for league positions towards the end of the season. Credit to Cardiff - they played some good football and Moylan, imho, was absolutely the difference-maker. More progressive and better all over the pitch.

As others have said, I don't think Coventry and Skipp works well enough to generate chances and positive football. Both of them play as disruptive, neat footballers but you need to compliment one of them with someone better on the ball and more forward thinking. Chalobah works better, but like Burke, he's got the durability of a damp wafer and cannot be relied on. JR-C or, imo, Knibbs are the other potentials, but JR-C has very little pace and often drifts out of games as a result, whilst Knibbs has less quality on the ball and also has the same anonymous streak. Carey could also arguably work there as an 8, but is completely off form. Ouma is already a player that looks massively out of his depth, is a failed experiment and will likely disappear in January. I don't want to see Ouma again outside of emergencies.

The result of this is that all of our attacking players will look worse as a result. Leaburn is doing what he can, but like last season, playing up front alone for Charlton is difficult graft. TC is doing what he can and I think Grant can unlock things, but I genuinely feel he's getting frustrated with the lack of quality around him. I think Grant looks better as the wide player than the 10, but with Carey's form dropping off a sheer cliff, we lack the creativity of both an 8 and a 10 to generate opportunities for those around them.

Somehow, we need to find a better combination of players. Honestly, I'd start dropping Mwamba into more games and maybe look at bringing Fullah back into the fold, as they are arguably our only other options if the senior players aren't doing the work. Fwiw, I think fitness and the amount of games have been punishing for us, because as soon as we start to rely on our "weaker" players, the quality dips. I also think that some of the players might be frustrated by us playing as much on NJs leash as we do - it's just a feeling, but it's no coincidence that so many pundits predict our games as decided by the odd goal.

We need to find a better formula for taking games to people - that starts with team selection from NJ, so I hope he moves away from 2 holding midfielders. We outworked teams when their fitness wasn't as good as ours, but as other teams catch up and the schedule becomes more punishing, the approach doesn't work.

We have what we have until January, but I hope we're looking to identify targets for out midfield already.

I wouldn't rely on the January transfer window to get us out of trouble. I don't think there will be much money to strengthen imo. And even if we did we'd need to shift a few out due already being at the max squad size. 

Agreed with the January window, particularly as I feel that the quality of player available and the desperation of a club makes things very dangerous bringing players in.

I'd sooner bring players in the August window and confine to offloading players in January.

ElfsborgAddick

wolfgang said:

No win for five league games, but still in the promotion play-off places. Still above the more-fancied Birmingham, Millwall, Southampton, Wrexham, Derby, Norwich and Burnley. I would have settled for that before the season started.

All well and good, but give it another five games and things might look very different, particularly as we have not won in five games.

ElfsborgAddick

daveroan said:

Timmy Ouma has played at the higher European levels and where he showed it today was his passes, not to feet , but into spaces. Unfortunately others couldn't 'read' his intentions; he showed more creativity than many of the team who need time to adjust to his passes into space, particularly speedy wingers. With Chaloba and Billy back and maybe more use of Knibbs and Mwamba we shall be fine.

If the guy is so good why is he playing for a Championship team?

Oakster2

Cardiff_perspective said:

After all our games I like to see other fans views for perspective. It's surprising how few rate the opposition when they lose but rather say their own team were poor
 We are no different. The beauty of this division us however it's unpredictability. Any team team can beat anyone. I haven't seen you ay thus season apart from efl highlights so not sure how that performance ranks but you must have something to have turned over West Ham at their place. In spite of our current position and points we have played really well this season. Too many missed chances has been our downfall. We outplayed Bolton away. Stoke & Sheffield United away. We were turned over by Pompey & QPR. We took it on the chin. I find it odd that fans automatically think a promoted team will be weak. We returned to the Championship in 2003 have had 2 seasons in the Premier and just 1 in L1. Going down in hindsight was a blessing. We cleared out the dead wood and lucked out with our new manager and haven't looked back. We play attractive attacking football. We are susceptible on the brbeak but I'll take that if it means watching a good game. Thought TC was your best player even if a little wasteful on occasion but don't write off your team on one performance. Good to see a decent away following as well especially for an early game on Sky. I look forward to the return match

I don't recall seeing Charlton take a game to an opponent the way Cardiff did today for a long time. You always look to the promoted teams as potential relegation rivals but I don't see that with you, Lincoln have had a solid start - so I am wondering which 3 teams will hopefully end up below us - surely Burnley will turn it round - so at the moment I'm hoping Derby, Preston & Bolton will save us. Overly dramatic when we are currently in a playoff spot ?- but in terms of form over the last 5 games - it couldnt be any worse

https://www.fotmob.com/leagues/48/table/championship?filter=form

wolfgang

The Prince-e-Paul said:

... unless NJ finds a system that works for group of players out of form and with questionable quality and attitude, then there is a serious problem right now and going forwards!

Plenty of genuine things to moan about, but to claim any players currently starting or playing significant minutes have a questionable attitude is just dishonest shit-stirring.

queensland_addick

Jayajosh said:

Cafctekkers said:

Davo55 said:

Could have scored 2 more, when Grant and Kelman both missed good chances. But could have conceded a lot more too - Cardiff looked a threat whenever they attacked and it was a mixture of good goalkeeping and sheer luck which stopped that from being an even worse scoreline. 

Of the new players - Okonkwo, McNamara, Koumetio and Mesik have impressed but all of the others give cause for concern. I'm hoping they will all improve with more game time but Ouma and Alli look way out of their depth so far.

The issue is, those were are only other chances outside of the goal. We simply don't create enough to score more than 1 goal a game, 2 if we're lucky 

I’m fairly sure we didn’t score more than 1 goal in over 35 games or maybe more last season. Looks like it’s the same old this season. That’s on NJ.

Yep. We can keep blaming individual players and poor individual performances each week, when the real problem is probably far more basic.

There is something fundamentally wrong in the way we play football.

TC, Leaburn and Grant are essentially isolated and when they do finally receive the ball in a dangerous area, there is huge pressure on them to make it count, and they have to do it alone.

If you compare that to the way that Cardiff, Stoke, WBA play, when they attack, the team as a whole pushes up the pitch in support.
Put Leaburn up front in any of those teams and he would not be on zero goals.

Yesterday for example there were often 6 or 7 players swarming around our box, applying pressure and making themselves available to have a shot.

ct_addick

Cardiff were sharp with quick passing and 3rd man running…we couldn’t deal with their movement…..Salech was a good target man and unlike Leaburn played one touch passes when passed to his feet…Moylan looked a very good pick up….just the sort of player we should have gone after…..Chappell and his scouting team get a D- from me 

Chris_from_Sidcup

Lost 3-1 and we'd have had no complaints if it was 6-1. Truly awful performance and Alli and Ouma in particular do not look up to it at all. 

I wonder if a formation change (especially in away games) to last seasons back 5 is on the cards? We are not good enough in attack to score 3-4 goals so then instead we need to ensure we keep things tight at the back and nick games 1-0 or 2-1.

Jones has a lot of thinking to do over the break because the last 4 games have simply not been good enough.

cafcledbury

Was at the game. Cardiff should of been at least 4 goals up at halftime. Only for there misses. Cardiff number 16 had so much time out wide. Our defence was a push over today something we rarely see. At the 2-1 stage I thought just maybe we would nick a draw. If grant had passed to TC we could of nicked the points. There third goal nothing we could do about it. Yes we are all peeed off with the score but we've got a few weeks off to rebuild get players back from injury. As long as we stay in the division beat Millwall home and away. We all take that now. 

MuttleyCAFC

Ouma can improve but he needs to adapt to the English game. Ideally you'd blood him in a commanding midfield and it will be easier but that isn't our midfield. The lad will also be lacking in confidence after the Stoke game. He did look massively behind the pace of the game though and that is a fact.

CharltonManor1966

Redskin said:

My only sympathy lies with those hardy souls that were actually there.
But the majority of you who only watched it on your wall-mounted plasma teles, stop your snivelling, you bunch of self-pitying pussies.
We were well beaten, and - brace yourselves - it will happen again.
We may also be relegated; Or we won't.
None of you has ever played professional football at this level; none of you has managed a team professionally at this level and yet you afford yourselves a better understanding of what professional football entails than those that actually are employed in the game.
We beat West Ham and Preston and now we've been given a couple of hidings: that's football, get over it.

Cheers Nathan

CharltonManor1966

Dave Rudd said:

Bedsaddick said:

Dave Rudd said:

Understandably there has been a lot of discussion about individual players on this thread ... and that's fair enough.  We had one or two (understatement) who were woeful.

But let's look at why Cardiff spent so much time in Zone 14.  They more or less played across the front of our penalty area unchallenged for most of the game.  And it's no surprise when a few of their several attempts at goal from that general area ended up in our net or were beaten away by the occasional save.

And this is not the first time.

We concede possession far too easily.  It's like we don't think that it matters.

Cardiff found space in key areas because we sat so deep.  We didn't match their movement and we were (and generally are) outmuscled in midfield challenges.  This last point is a recurring theme and sadly reflects the blueprint that we seem to adhere to in recruitment and at academy level.

I'd look to get some strength into midfield.  We could do worse than put Mesiḱ there.  But that is hardly enough.

We lack a guv'nor in midfield.  Not a willing runner or a spoiler.  But someone who can boss things and demonstrate some physicality.  Looking at the squad, the choices are limited ... but Mesiḱ may be worth a go. 

You lost me at Zone 14 .🤔

Zone 14: The Most Dangerous Area in Football? - The Football Analyst

Thought that was the Charlton dressing room after another thumping?

_MrDick

PWR … Is it safe to come out from behind the sofa yet 😬

CL_Phantom

That was.... Shite 

The 10 role and NJ not knowing what he wants to do with it is causing a lot of issues and, surprisingly, the defence. 

Bindon, maybe he's better to suited to a 3 but he continues to look a bit ropey in a two, would ease Bell back in at LCB and give Bindon more catch up time training / from the bench.

The elusive 10.... Personally, would just play JRC as much as possible, yeah yeah, not a Jones player, doesn't have the engine blah blah blah but at least the guy can pass a ball and run with it....or who else..

Carey - engine, not very good at actual football
Grant - wide forward that doesn't want to be there
Ouma - yeah, no thanks, jury is still out (wHy yOu ScAPegOaTiNg hIm tHoUgH) 
Knibbs - who?!? 

If we had  brought in another forward I'd stick Leaburn in there but, we don't, so, we can't.

Fair play to Cardiff, look a decent side, maybe a cheeky outsider for that new last playoff spot if they've now got it together in front of goal.

Orpingtony

Garrymanilow said:

SELR_addicks said:

Garrymanilow said:

A bit of an all-timer on here this evening. On the one hand it’s a shame there’s no upcoming game to put this one behind us but on the other hand I think some of you could really benefit from the three weeks off. I dread to think what another couple of bad results this month would do to people

You said yourself you didn't watch the game so don't really have a reason to be knocking people that sat through it. 

I mean, I didn’t see it because I was at the women’s game. They lost 4-1 so I definitely did my time today. I’m not knocking anyone though, I’m just commenting what I’ve seen on the forum today. A new Jones thread, a Chapple out thread, people thanking the lord Ouma is only on loan and talking about bombing Alli out until he can be loaned away in January. It’s like a whole forum of yous this evening, and that’s a good a reason as any for a three week calm down. 

At least the women scored a worldy.