Saturday v Norwich: Skipp, Coventry, Both or Neither?
Comments
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Can't be playing Norwich with both again, I'd keep Cov over Skipp. Would like to see Grant dropped and Carey come in at the 10. TC on the left, but not sure who comes in on the right? Maybe give Alli a start.
Not exactly encouraging though, and just shows the lack of quality in our squad.
Something like this:Okonkwo
McNamara Jones Koumetio Mesik
Cov Mwamba
Alli Carey Campbell
Kelman3 -
They're both extremely limited, so take at least one off and throw in Mwamba, Carey, Knibbs... Anyone.0
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also not seen Nkeng yet.... has he still been featuring for u21... could he be an option for RW?1
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Think what all of these potential teams posted shows is that we really don’t have a good team
Coventry and Skipp are limited on the ball, but our defensive shape is probably best with them there.Take one of them out for Mwamba or Costello and then you get someone who can progress the ball. But then you probably become more open defensively due to Mwamba’s lack of experience and Costello’s lack of being able to run
And that’s just the midfield problems. Then you look at the right hand side and whether you want to play a right wing back or right winger there isn’t a good option
What Jones needs to quickly find is the least bad option, so that we can pick up enough points until January to still be clear of the bottom 3
Okonkwo
Ramsay Jones Koumetio Mesik
Costello Coventry
Alli Carey TC
Kelman
That would be my first attempt for Saturday and see how it goes
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As you seem to be very clued up, have you ever worked in coaching?NabySarr said:Think what all of these potential teams posted shows is that we really don’t have a good team
Coventry and Skipp are limited on the ball, but our defensive shape is probably best with them there.Take one of them out for Mwamba or Costello and then you get someone who can progress the ball. But then you probably become more open defensively due to Mwamba’s lack of experience and Costello’s lack of being able to run
And that’s just the midfield problems. Then you look at the right hand side and whether you want to play a right wing back or right winger there isn’t a good option
What Jones needs to quickly find is the least bad option, so that we can pick up enough points until January to still be clear of the bottom 3
Okonkwo
Ramsay Jones Koumetio Mesik
Costello Coventry
Alli Carey TC
Kelman
That would be my first attempt for Saturday and see how it goes
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Clear they can't play together, for me it has to be Cov. He showed in the early games that with a different player beside him and licence, he can pass through the lines very well. Skipp has been very up and down, Watford aside Cov is generally more consistent.
As big a problem (or almost) in my book is Grant in the 10. Just doesn't work at all, he's never actually in the 10 spot and we're left with a gaping hole for them to build through and leaving every one of the second balls (mostly off Leaburn) for them to collect. Has to be right wing or bench for him.
For the same reason the player next to Cov has to be someone more box to box who gets around and can cover some of that forward space.
So for me it's Cov, Mwamba or Knibbs, and Carey.
And have to go back to the four at the back with wingers, TC has to be left as an outright winger.4 -
If it's one or t'other it's Coventry.
Skipp hasn't done anything to displace him.
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Last 4 games we’ve conceded at least 1 goal where a goal has come down to Coventry and Skipp being played through too easily.NabySarr said:Think what all of these potential teams posted shows is that we really don’t have a good team
Coventry and Skipp are limited on the ball, but our defensive shape is probably best with them there.Take one of them out for Mwamba or Costello and then you get someone who can progress the ball. But then you probably become more open defensively due to Mwamba’s lack of experience and Costello’s lack of being able to run
And that’s just the midfield problems. Then you look at the right hand side and whether you want to play a right wing back or right winger there isn’t a good option
What Jones needs to quickly find is the least bad option, so that we can pick up enough points until January to still be clear of the bottom 3
Okonkwo
Ramsay Jones Koumetio Mesik
Costello Coventry
Alli Carey TC
Kelman
That would be my first attempt for Saturday and see how it goes
Who cares if you throw Mwamba or JRC in were open regardless if we’re going to get walked through let’s at least play with a midfielder with capability of giving something back to the opposition1 -
If Rankin-Costello hasn’t played a minute for the past 5 games why would he suddenly start on Saturday? He does have more ability to move the ball forwards than Cov & Skipp though so maybe it’s time for the JRC experiment again…2
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Not sure Coventry or Skipp can run either .NabySarr said:Think what all of these potential teams posted shows is that we really don’t have a good team
Coventry and Skipp are limited on the ball, but our defensive shape is probably best with them there.Take one of them out for Mwamba or Costello and then you get someone who can progress the ball. But then you probably become more open defensively due to Mwamba’s lack of experience and Costello’s lack of being able to run
And that’s just the midfield problems. Then you look at the right hand side and whether you want to play a right wing back or right winger there isn’t a good option
What Jones needs to quickly find is the least bad option, so that we can pick up enough points until January to still be clear of the bottom 3
Okonkwo
Ramsay Jones Koumetio Mesik
Costello Coventry
Alli Carey TC
Kelman
That would be my first attempt for Saturday and see how it goes
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We all know the Watford performance was a complete shite show, and even Jones admitted post-match that he should have freshened things up! Fielding seven defensive-minded players against a leaky team was indefensible, and that turgid, agricultural Skipp-Coventry double pivot should be confined to history. It completely suffocates any hope of a transition from midfield to attack.
Is this mess a byproduct of a disjointed transfer committee, or did Jones get exactly the type of 'good athletes' he demanded, completely ignoring the need for actual footballers? Either way we’ve built a squad loaded with physical defensive blockers but we are criminally short on creative flair.
Look at how the Rob Apter situation was handled. Most of us had already lost confidence in him after Jones stubbornly tried to convert a natural attacking winger into a defensive wing-back. He completely killed the lad's confidence by playing him out of position to fit a rigid, functional system. Now, following a desperately poor loan spell at Bolton, he’s out of the equation undergoing knee surgery. It’s a damning indictment of how our recruitment profiles are mismatched with how players are actually being deployed.
Jones is now firmly backed into a corner. The "he doesn't know his best XI" crowd will start circling if he continues to tinker blindly, but equally, consistently holding the line and losing is worse. Maybe it’s time for some tactical flexibility?
Let’s hope it’s true Chalobah is finally back on the grass. The stats don't lie—every single win we have recorded this season came with Chalobah on the pitch. He is the glue, and frankly, the only recruitment success story in that midfield who can actually pass a ball forward. If he is fit enough to give us even an hour, I think Jones should throw him straight to the base of a midfield diamond and drop Skipp entirely.
Let Chalobah run the tempo for 60 minutes, with Carey and Knibbs narrow to protect him. If Chalobah tires, bring Coventry on to see the game out—but under no circumstances should we see Skipp and Coventry starting together again.
My XI for Norwich:
GK: Okwonkwo
RB/LB: Ramsay, Koumetio, Mesík, McNamara
DM: Chalobah (Dictate from deep, Coventry on at 60 mins)
CM: Carey & Knibbs (Given license to actually push forward)
AM: Kelman (Put him at the tip of the diamond where his finishing bursts can actually hurt teams)
ST: Leaburn & Campbell (Pace and power to stretch them early)
If Jones rolls out the same passive, double-pivot setup and things don’t go well the atmosphere at The Valley is going to turn toxic fast. I hope he has a Plan B.
COYR
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To be fair that’s a very NJ thing to doSheedyCAFC said:If Rankin-Costello hasn’t played a minute for the past 5 games why would he suddenly start on Saturday? He does have more ability to move the ball forwards than Cov & Skipp though so maybe it’s time for the JRC experiment again…0 -
Cov/Skipp is the worst combination in midfield we have apart from all the others we currently have. Mwamba is too raw and I would challenge anybody to say when any one of Carey/Knibbs/Costello had a good 90, or even 60 minutes. It was a long time ago. None of them have either the defensive strength to play at 8 or the skill/pace to play at 10.
I expect one of them will start and we really have to rely on hope rather than expectation that it will come off. In Jan we have to bring in a 2027 version of Coady, but in the 10 position.1 -
So let me get this straight68/9er said:We all know the Watford performance was a complete shite show, and even Jones admitted post-match that he should have freshened things up! Fielding seven defensive-minded players against a leaky team was indefensible, and that turgid, agricultural Skipp-Coventry double pivot should be confined to history. It completely suffocates any hope of a transition from midfield to attack.
Is this mess a byproduct of a disjointed transfer committee, or did Jones get exactly the type of 'good athletes' he demanded, completely ignoring the need for actual footballers? Either way we’ve built a squad loaded with physical defensive blockers but we are criminally short on creative flair.
Look at how the Rob Apter situation was handled. Most of us had already lost confidence in him after Jones stubbornly tried to convert a natural attacking winger into a defensive wing-back. He completely killed the lad's confidence by playing him out of position to fit a rigid, functional system. Now, following a desperately poor loan spell at Bolton, he’s out of the equation undergoing knee surgery. It’s a damning indictment of how our recruitment profiles are mismatched with how players are actually being deployed.
Jones is now firmly backed into a corner. The "he doesn't know his best XI" crowd will start circling if he continues to tinker blindly, but equally, consistently holding the line and losing is worse. Maybe it’s time for some tactical flexibility?
Let’s hope it’s true Chalobah is finally back on the grass. The stats don't lie—every single win we have recorded this season came with Chalobah on the pitch. He is the glue, and frankly, the only recruitment success story in that midfield who can actually pass a ball forward. If he is fit enough to give us even an hour, I think Jones should throw him straight to the base of a midfield diamond and drop Skipp entirely.
Let Chalobah run the tempo for 60 minutes, with Carey and Knibbs narrow to protect him. If Chalobah tires, bring Coventry on to see the game out—but under no circumstances should we see Skipp and Coventry starting together again.
My XI for Norwich:
GK: Okwonkwo
RB/LB: Ramsay, Koumetio, Mesík, McNamara
DM: Chalobah (Dictate from deep, Coventry on at 60 mins)
CM: Carey & Knibbs (Given license to actually push forward)
AM: Kelman (Put him at the tip of the diamond where his finishing bursts can actually hurt teams)
ST: Leaburn & Campbell (Pace and power to stretch them early)
If Jones rolls out the same passive, double-pivot setup and things don’t go well the atmosphere at The Valley is going to turn toxic fast. I hope he has a Plan B.
COYR
- throw Chalobah straight back in because he was seen joining in with some training. (Which doesn’t mean he’s fully fit at all, players always get phased back in)
- not just throw him straight in, but put him there with Knibbs and Carey so he’s got to cover a lot more ground than usual, further increasing his injury risk
- Lloyd Jones dropped???
- no width whatsoever
- Kelman as an attacking midfielder, when nearly all his best attributes are about playing on the last man and running in behind.Genuinely think this line up would lose about 6-0 with Chalobah also getting re-injured7 -
You make some good points. But let me counter a few of those specifics, because doing nothing and rolling out the same passive double-pivot against Norwich and expecting a different result is madness.
- I get what you say about Chalobah. Throwing him straight back in after a couple of training sessions is a massive gamble, especially given how paper-thin our midfield depth is. But the stats don't lie. He is literally the only player in that engine room who transitions the ball from back to front with any vertical urgency. Even a 60% fit Chalobah dictating tempo from deep gives us more structure than Skipp and Coventry bumping into each other for 90 minutes. We need to buy him time by running the legs off the two narrow CMs next to him.
- The lack of width is the inherent risk of a narrow diamond. But where is our current width coming from anyway? It certainly isn't coming from our full-backs right now, who look entirely restricted. A narrow system forces the opposition to crowd the center, which actually allows the full-backs (Ramsay and McNamara) to act as the primary outlets to run forward. We aren't creating anything from the wide areas as it stands, so we might as well dominate the central channels.
- Dropping the captain and arguably our most consistent defensive blocker is a big call, I admit. But after shipping two goals to a struggling Watford side, nobody should be un-droppable. Mesík and Koumetio give us a slightly different profile in possession to build out from the back, which is needed if you're trying to play through a midfield diamond.
- I completely disagree that playing Charlie Kelman buries him. Playing him at the tip of the diamond isn't asking him to be a traditional, elegant number 10 playmaker. It's asking him to play as an advanced raider. With Leaburn and Campbell pinning the Norwich centre-backs deep and occupying their attention, it opens up massive pockets of space for Kelman to make those late, explosive bursts from deep directly into the box. It turns him into a goal-scoring shadow striker, rather than a creator.
If we go 6-0 down and Chalobah snaps his hamstring, I'll take the absolute pelters on here and hold my hands up but tbf I don’t expect to find out one way or another. But right now, Nathan Jones seems entirely out of ideas and backing a broken system. I’d rather lose trying something tactically brave than watch another 90 minutes of passive, agricultural football at The Valley.
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I feel for Mwamba in that it’s asking a lot given the stage of development he’s at in his career, but we might just have to throw him in at the start and see how we get on.Like others, it’s painful to watch our midfield two both individually and collectively at the moment. They are like the butter in the proverbial knife through butter imo. Not sure what the answer is if I’m honest. They both lack pace, aren’t particularly dominant as that type of player needs to be and aren’t the best at starting attacks from breaking up play. I’d say they and that position is a big problem for us1
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I don't disagree with anyone saying neither of them are easy on the eye. I will say I believe they are playing to orders, to retain possession, beat the press, enable the full backs to get up the pitch and to progress us through the lines.
It'd be that last bit they are sturggling with and I put a lot of the blame for that on their teammates. Watch the 4 or 5 player in front of them next time one of the is able to get their head up. Next to no proactive movement, so invariably the ball ends up being crabbed between the two of them, to one of the centre halves and back again by which time the opposition are in a defensive shape, our forwards and wanting the ball to feet, fine in our half to play one twos and open space up but useless when we have height and pace and are plodding the ball to feet which nullifies our whippets so the ball goes long to Miles who more often than not will win the first ball but there is nobody close enough to him or anticipating the second ball. Which to be fair to Carey, is a speciality of his, and Knibbs from what I remember if him at Reading playing off Smith
There are no other options, they do need to move the ball quicker and both are capable of it but they are taking a lot of shit, some fairly, some harsh when their teammates aren't helping them1 -
Is JRC the new Terry Taylor4
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I actually agree with a lot of this but I think they're still too risk averse when playing forward. The movement ahead of them certainly isn't good enough but Ramsay and Mwamba have shown that there are forwarded passes to play if they're willing to take a little more risk. It might be that they seem them and think using them is against instructions but they are thereCarter said:I don't disagree with anyone saying neither of them are easy on the eye. I will say I believe they are playing to orders, to retain possession, beat the press, enable the full backs to get up the pitch and to progress us through the lines.
It'd be that last bit they are sturggling with and I put a lot of the blame for that on their teammates. Watch the 4 or 5 player in front of them next time one of the is able to get their head up. Next to no proactive movement, so invariably the ball ends up being crabbed between the two of them, to one of the centre halves and back again by which time the opposition are in a defensive shape, our forwards and wanting the ball to feet, fine in our half to play one twos and open space up but useless when we have height and pace and are plodding the ball to feet which nullifies our whippets so the ball goes long to Miles who more often than not will win the first ball but there is nobody close enough to him or anticipating the second ball. Which to be fair to Carey, is a speciality of his, and Knibbs from what I remember if him at Reading playing off Smith
There are no other options, they do need to move the ball quicker and both are capable of it but they are taking a lot of shit, some fairly, some harsh when their teammates aren't helping them3 -
Coventry shouldn’t be dropped. The reason he often passes backwards and sideways is that he has absolutely nothing in front of him (we don’t have a proper 10, our right side is very weak offensively and TC is often doubled up on)
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It's probably a dangerous cycle > our forward players make less runs because they know the midfield two are not going to pass forwards, and then our midfield two have less options because the forward players are making less runs.fenaddick said:
I actually agree with a lot of this but I think they're still too risk averse when playing forward. The movement ahead of them certainly isn't good enough but Ramsay and Mwamba have shown that there are forwarded passes to play if they're willing to take a little more risk. It might be that they seem them and think using them is against instructions but they are thereCarter said:I don't disagree with anyone saying neither of them are easy on the eye. I will say I believe they are playing to orders, to retain possession, beat the press, enable the full backs to get up the pitch and to progress us through the lines.
It'd be that last bit they are sturggling with and I put a lot of the blame for that on their teammates. Watch the 4 or 5 player in front of them next time one of the is able to get their head up. Next to no proactive movement, so invariably the ball ends up being crabbed between the two of them, to one of the centre halves and back again by which time the opposition are in a defensive shape, our forwards and wanting the ball to feet, fine in our half to play one twos and open space up but useless when we have height and pace and are plodding the ball to feet which nullifies our whippets so the ball goes long to Miles who more often than not will win the first ball but there is nobody close enough to him or anticipating the second ball. Which to be fair to Carey, is a speciality of his, and Knibbs from what I remember if him at Reading playing off Smith
There are no other options, they do need to move the ball quicker and both are capable of it but they are taking a lot of shit, some fairly, some harsh when their teammates aren't helping them
I don't buy that it's instructions. No coach wants to allow the opposition back into the security of their defensive shape.
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It's not that, it's about control. Sometimes you do need to just hold possession to grab back control of the game and to give your forwards a restChunes said:
It's probably a dangerous cycle > our forward players make less runs because they know the midfield two are not going to pass forwards, and then our midfield two have less options because the forward players are making less runs.fenaddick said:
I actually agree with a lot of this but I think they're still too risk averse when playing forward. The movement ahead of them certainly isn't good enough but Ramsay and Mwamba have shown that there are forwarded passes to play if they're willing to take a little more risk. It might be that they seem them and think using them is against instructions but they are thereCarter said:I don't disagree with anyone saying neither of them are easy on the eye. I will say I believe they are playing to orders, to retain possession, beat the press, enable the full backs to get up the pitch and to progress us through the lines.
It'd be that last bit they are sturggling with and I put a lot of the blame for that on their teammates. Watch the 4 or 5 player in front of them next time one of the is able to get their head up. Next to no proactive movement, so invariably the ball ends up being crabbed between the two of them, to one of the centre halves and back again by which time the opposition are in a defensive shape, our forwards and wanting the ball to feet, fine in our half to play one twos and open space up but useless when we have height and pace and are plodding the ball to feet which nullifies our whippets so the ball goes long to Miles who more often than not will win the first ball but there is nobody close enough to him or anticipating the second ball. Which to be fair to Carey, is a speciality of his, and Knibbs from what I remember if him at Reading playing off Smith
There are no other options, they do need to move the ball quicker and both are capable of it but they are taking a lot of shit, some fairly, some harsh when their teammates aren't helping them
I don't buy that it's instructions. No coach wants to allow the opposition back into the security of their defensive shape.0 -
What I don’t get is if you’re right and it’s the forward players movement at fault, how was Mwamba able to come on and instantly find those same team mates with a few forward passes? I think playing an actual number 10 will help as a better receiver than Grant. But for me Mwamba exposed Coventry and Skipp’s lack of progression with the ball very quickly last weekCarter said:I don't disagree with anyone saying neither of them are easy on the eye. I will say I believe they are playing to orders, to retain possession, beat the press, enable the full backs to get up the pitch and to progress us through the lines.
It'd be that last bit they are sturggling with and I put a lot of the blame for that on their teammates. Watch the 4 or 5 player in front of them next time one of the is able to get their head up. Next to no proactive movement, so invariably the ball ends up being crabbed between the two of them, to one of the centre halves and back again by which time the opposition are in a defensive shape, our forwards and wanting the ball to feet, fine in our half to play one twos and open space up but useless when we have height and pace and are plodding the ball to feet which nullifies our whippets so the ball goes long to Miles who more often than not will win the first ball but there is nobody close enough to him or anticipating the second ball. Which to be fair to Carey, is a speciality of his, and Knibbs from what I remember if him at Reading playing off Smith
There are no other options, they do need to move the ball quicker and both are capable of it but they are taking a lot of shit, some fairly, some harsh when their teammates aren't helping them5 -
Exactly this.NabySarr said:
What I don’t get is if you’re right and it’s the forward players movement at fault, how was Mwamba able to come on and instantly find those same team mates with a few forward passes? I think playing an actual number 10 will help as a better receiver than Grant. But for me Mwamba exposed Coventry and Skipp’s lack of progression with the ball very quickly last weekCarter said:I don't disagree with anyone saying neither of them are easy on the eye. I will say I believe they are playing to orders, to retain possession, beat the press, enable the full backs to get up the pitch and to progress us through the lines.
It'd be that last bit they are sturggling with and I put a lot of the blame for that on their teammates. Watch the 4 or 5 player in front of them next time one of the is able to get their head up. Next to no proactive movement, so invariably the ball ends up being crabbed between the two of them, to one of the centre halves and back again by which time the opposition are in a defensive shape, our forwards and wanting the ball to feet, fine in our half to play one twos and open space up but useless when we have height and pace and are plodding the ball to feet which nullifies our whippets so the ball goes long to Miles who more often than not will win the first ball but there is nobody close enough to him or anticipating the second ball. Which to be fair to Carey, is a speciality of his, and Knibbs from what I remember if him at Reading playing off Smith
There are no other options, they do need to move the ball quicker and both are capable of it but they are taking a lot of shit, some fairly, some harsh when their teammates aren't helping them
No way does Jones give them orders not to try and play a forward pass, it would make absolutely no sense.2 -
Okonkwo
Ramsay
Jones
Koumetio
Mesik
Coventry
Knibbs Carey
Leaburn Grant Campbell0 -
Personally like to see Ramsay get given a game in midfield likes to invert normally and drive with the ball anyway. Also offers a bit more pace and physicality than any of our other holding options0
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I never want to see Cov and Skipp in the same midfield again, but sadly I think we will on Saturday. Mwamba needs to be managed correctly, but I'd start him with Cov against Norwich.2
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Looks like Mwamba's getting the Fullah treatment this season - playing the occasional tough away game, but never starting at home.2
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I think it is all down to NJ instructions, I still believe he sets the team up not to lose which means everything is down to defensive players not to concede and hope to score a breakaway goal.
The strikers get very little help, Leaburn had the one chance against Watford and if he had scored NJ would had settled for that result.
Might have to wait until the next game if the weather cancels Saturday to see if NJ changes tactics but not expecting miracles
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Okonkwo
