Left school at 15, did not take any exams. Served a 6-year apprenticeship, then spent the rest of my life in well paid interesting jobs, and have now retired, not rich by any means, but do not need to worry about bills etc, paid my mortgage up in my 50s, I have had regular overseas holidays for the few years, and a decent car. Isn't this what most people want? If you want to go to Uni, fine, but not necessary to have a good life.
Very different now though mate, you grew up in more sensible times - a small percentage of school leavers went to university (5-10%?), their degrees were worthwhile and helped them get a decent job and they didn't start adult life with a crippling debt. The fact that there weren't huge numbers of graduates floating around meant that those without degrees weren't prevented from getting good careers - get your foot in the door, prove you can do a good job and the rest will look after itself.
Thanks to the wonderful theory that everyone should be allowed to go to university, we now have thousands of graduates every year, many obtaining degrees in ridiculously futile subjects, and (apart from the ones who's parents can pay them through) they start their adult life with a huge debt (£20k to £30k?!) when they should be trying to start saving the astronomical amount they need to buy a house. University has become an extension of sixth form college, but youngsters feel they need to go to just to give themselves a chance of getting a decent job. For those that haven't got degrees, there are lots of doors that are completely closed to you, especially when you're starting out.
I'm 36 now, and it becomes less and less relevant as you get older but I still see jobs advertised, that I really fancy and know I could do well, where the job description states that "you should have a degree at 2.2 or higher".
That's not to say that if you're bright enough and determined enough you can't still have a great career without a degree, but it's a lot more difficult now than it used to be.
I would have to disagree with the debt issue, in that although fees for university are much higher than they should be the money owed is not taken into account when applying for things like mortgages etc. You have to earn above a certain amount to start paying it off and even then it is effectively the same as paying for something like Sky once a month. It is an inconvenience yes, but I wouldn't say that it's crippling, and shouldn't put people off of going to university if they wish to.
Sorry mate have to disagree with you about the debt thing. The new system js better in some ways but is terrible for anyone with ambition but from a family without money.
Let's use a hypothetical student Charlton fan let's call him Hantersaddick he's from an average family not a huge amount of money but own their home and live comfortably. No way could they pay his uni fees upfront so he's gone for the loan option. Now Hantersaddick is ambitious and works hard and wants to do well. He has completed a years work before returning to finish uni and will be going into a good job after graduation (assuming he doesn't cock it up by spending too much time on some football website called Parlton life).
Now the 'you don't have to pay it off until you earn above a certain point' argument let's look at that. The point is 21000 (fixed, not rising with inflation so basically a real terms fall every year). Show me a graduate job that doesn't pay more than 21000. Any student with ambition should be expecting to earn that fairly quickly and with reasonable progression will earn and fair chuck more. And that's where they kill you. Because it suddenly stops becoming and loan and starts becoming a tax. So if you have a reasonable job with good career progression but can't pay it off early you can easily pay back 10 times what you borrowed. Read money saving expert Martin Lewis on this.
Let's talk about the interest rate, 3% above RPI (notice how they use RPI when you have to pay it and CPI when they have to pay it). That's a big chunk of money. And interest is charged from the second you take the loan out, the old system it was from graduation. So when you finally enter the job market with 35grand debt (if you're lucky) you have to earn 42grand a year just to pay the interest. If you earn less than that your total debt rises every year.
So you are in the terrible situation of, do I pay it off early and delay getting a deposit for a house for 10 years. Do I murder my parents so I can get a house and pay it off. Or do I accept that I am paying an ever increasing chunk of my pay cheque every month as an extra tax.
Our friend Hantersaddick is favouring the murder your family option.
The thing is canters if they don't borrow the money they won't be going to uni. I have a mate though his daughter is 14 his been saving for ages though for when she goes to uni He is telling me that although the money will be there he will still get her to get what money she can
Of course. No way could I have gone room uni (and still be studying now) without the loan system. But that's why I think it's so criminal. For the majority of people it's the only way they can afford to go. Only the 'born rich' can afford not to and they are the ones who arguably should be paying the most 'grad tax'. Yet the rich effectively pay far less for their education because their parents can pay it up front. Those of us who are not born to stupidly rich families have no option to take the loan and are lumbered with 30 years of 9% grad tax.
Me too, piss poor mum trying to make do as a single mother.. without the loans I'd have never left my shit hole of an estate... got a degree and now live as a Artist that gets to travel the world and pay back said 30grand debt.
Funny enough a art degree is one of those that's considered pointless, without it though I'd probably be in a box or prison cell like a lot of my mates
Do you live in Brighton, Shino?
Nah I've just moved from totnes Devon to near Hitchin where the GF lives
When you push a button to call an elevator, it lights up to confirm it had been pressed but somebody comes along right behind you and pushes it again! Do they not trust me to have pushed this correctly first time around???
Someone on Twitter claiming its their 56th consecutive televised tie.
Correct. Reading was 55
Game 41 is an error. They lost the QF replay to Chelsea, who played Man City in the SF. So either they mixed it up with another game or someone's made a massive cock-up and it's only 54 games.
Someone on Twitter claiming its their 56th consecutive televised tie.
Correct. Reading was 55
Game 41 is an error. They lost the QF replay to Chelsea, who played Man City in the SF. So either they mixed it up with another game or someone's made a massive cock-up and it's only 54 games.
Hah, Brilliant spot there.
If a broadcaster has the rights to a match, do they automatically get the rights to the replay? If so, match 41 (Chelsea, 2013, SF) may actually be the replay, just mislabelled?
Someone on Twitter claiming its their 56th consecutive televised tie.
Correct. Reading was 55
Game 41 is an error. They lost the QF replay to Chelsea, who played Man City in the SF. So either they mixed it up with another game or someone's made a massive cock-up and it's only 54 games.
If 40 was the QF against Chelsea then the QF replay must be 41 (Not the SF)
Someone on Twitter claiming its their 56th consecutive televised tie.
Correct. Reading was 55
Game 41 is an error. They lost the QF replay to Chelsea, who played Man City in the SF. So either they mixed it up with another game or someone's made a massive cock-up and it's only 54 games.
Hah, Brilliant spot there.
If a broadcaster has the rights to a match, do they automatically get the rights to the replay? If so, match 41 (Chelsea, 2013, SF) may actually be the replay, just mislabelled?
The worrying trend for me is Leeds. How the fuck were they chosen against Cambridge in the 3rd round??? I understand them vs the winners of Sutton/dons because that could've and has led to covering a non league side.
But I'm genuinely baffled as to why the cameras and people still talk about this fucking club. They've been shit for years, and the slightest revival (that revival being achieving a play off position in the championship for god's sake), and all of a sudden they're in our faces
The worrying trend for me is Leeds. How the fuck were they chosen against Cambridge in the 3rd round??? I understand them vs the winners of Sutton/dons because that could've and has led to covering a non league side.
But I'm genuinely baffled as to why the cameras and people still talk about this fucking club. They've been shit for years, and the slightest revival (that revival being achieving a play off position in the championship for god's sake), and all of a sudden they're in our faces
I don't mind lower league at home to higher league side.
Why they showed Spurs Reserves vs Villa, I don't know.
When you push a button to call an elevator, it lights up to confirm it had been pressed but somebody comes along right behind you and pushes it again! Do they not trust me to have pushed this correctly first time around???
Same with crossings at traffic lights!
Bizarre!
The same thing on buses. Someone pushes the bell for the next stop then some other prick presses it as well and then another.
When you push a button to call an elevator, it lights up to confirm it had been pressed but somebody comes along right behind you and pushes it again! Do they not trust me to have pushed this correctly first time around???
When you push a button to call an elevator, it lights up to confirm it had been pressed but somebody comes along right behind you and pushes it again! Do they not trust me to have pushed this correctly first time around???
When you push a button to call an elevator, it lights up to confirm it had been pressed but somebody comes along right behind you and pushes it again! Do they not trust me to have pushed this correctly first time around???
Nah I've just moved from totnes Devon to near Hitchin where the GF lives
@shine166 You've just doubled the Charlton population of Hitchin mate! I grew up in St Albans but moved to Hitchin about 6 years ago, now living just north (a village called Clifton).
Plonkers on the news complaining about their holiday in the Gambia being cut short on Foreign Office advice on the grounds that 'it'll all blow over tomorrow'.
Okay Barry from Bradford, you've been in the country 3 days so you've clearly got a better idea of the geopolitical situation in West Africa and a better handle on the military forces massing on border than your government. You stay sitting on your lounger and hope for the best eh...
Plonkers on the news complaining about their holiday in the Gambia being cut short on Foreign Office advice on the grounds that 'it'll all blow over tomorrow'.
Okay Barry from Bradford, you've been in the country 3 days so you've clearly got a better idea of the geopolitical situation in West Africa and a better handle on the military forces massing on border than your government. You stay sitting on your lounger and hope for the best eh...
They book these dirt-cheap holidays but don't realise they're only dirt-cheap because the destination is a warzone.
Having the same bloke moving onto every weight or machine I want to go onto in the gym. I know it makes no difference but because it's the same bloke it's agitating me even more
Nah I've just moved from totnes Devon to near Hitchin where the GF lives
@shine166 You've just doubled the Charlton population of Hitchin mate! I grew up in St Albans but moved to Hitchin about 6 years ago, now living just north (a village called Clifton).
The worrying trend for me is Leeds. How the fuck were they chosen against Cambridge in the 3rd round??? I understand them vs the winners of Sutton/dons because that could've and has led to covering a non league side.
But I'm genuinely baffled as to why the cameras and people still talk about this fucking club. They've been shit for years, and the slightest revival (that revival being achieving a play off position in the championship for god's sake), and all of a sudden they're in our faces
I used to do a summing up of how obsessed sky were with Leeds mate. But got the message that it wasn't good for me...
Left school at 15, did not take any exams. Served a 6-year apprenticeship, then spent the rest of my life in well paid interesting jobs, and have now retired, not rich by any means, but do not need to worry about bills etc, paid my mortgage up in my 50s, I have had regular overseas holidays for the few years, and a decent car. Isn't this what most people want? If you want to go to Uni, fine, but not necessary to have a good life.
Very different now though mate, you grew up in more sensible times - a small percentage of school leavers went to university (5-10%?), their degrees were worthwhile and helped them get a decent job and they didn't start adult life with a crippling debt. The fact that there weren't huge numbers of graduates floating around meant that those without degrees weren't prevented from getting good careers - get your foot in the door, prove you can do a good job and the rest will look after itself.
Thanks to the wonderful theory that everyone should be allowed to go to university, we now have thousands of graduates every year, many obtaining degrees in ridiculously futile subjects, and (apart from the ones who's parents can pay them through) they start their adult life with a huge debt (£20k to £30k?!) when they should be trying to start saving the astronomical amount they need to buy a house. University has become an extension of sixth form college, but youngsters feel they need to go to just to give themselves a chance of getting a decent job. For those that haven't got degrees, there are lots of doors that are completely closed to you, especially when you're starting out.
I'm 36 now, and it becomes less and less relevant as you get older but I still see jobs advertised, that I really fancy and know I could do well, where the job description states that "you should have a degree at 2.2 or higher".
That's not to say that if you're bright enough and determined enough you can't still have a great career without a degree, but it's a lot more difficult now than it used to be.
I would have to disagree with the debt issue, in that although fees for university are much higher than they should be the money owed is not taken into account when applying for things like mortgages etc. You have to earn above a certain amount to start paying it off and even then it is effectively the same as paying for something like Sky once a month. It is an inconvenience yes, but I wouldn't say that it's crippling, and shouldn't put people off of going to university if they wish to.
Sorry mate have to disagree with you about the debt thing. The new system js better in some ways but is terrible for anyone with ambition but from a family without money.
Let's use a hypothetical student Charlton fan let's call him Hantersaddick he's from an average family not a huge amount of money but own their home and live comfortably. No way could they pay his uni fees upfront so he's gone for the loan option. Now Hantersaddick is ambitious and works hard and wants to do well. He has completed a years work before returning to finish uni and will be going into a good job after graduation (assuming he doesn't cock it up by spending too much time on some football website called Parlton life).
Now the 'you don't have to pay it off until you earn above a certain point' argument let's look at that. The point is 21000 (fixed, not rising with inflation so basically a real terms fall every year). Show me a graduate job that doesn't pay more than 21000. Any student with ambition should be expecting to earn that fairly quickly and with reasonable progression will earn and fair chuck more. And that's where they kill you. Because it suddenly stops becoming and loan and starts becoming a tax. So if you have a reasonable job with good career progression but can't pay it off early you can easily pay back 10 times what you borrowed. Read money saving expert Martin Lewis on this.
Let's talk about the interest rate, 3% above RPI (notice how they use RPI when you have to pay it and CPI when they have to pay it). That's a big chunk of money. And interest is charged from the second you take the loan out, the old system it was from graduation. So when you finally enter the job market with 35grand debt (if you're lucky) you have to earn 42grand a year just to pay the interest. If you earn less than that your total debt rises every year.
So you are in the terrible situation of, do I pay it off early and delay getting a deposit for a house for 10 years. Do I murder my parents so I can get a house and pay it off. Or do I accept that I am paying an ever increasing chunk of my pay cheque every month as an extra tax.
Our friend Hantersaddick is favouring the murder your family option.
The thing is canters if they don't borrow the money they won't be going to uni. I have a mate though his daughter is 14 his been saving for ages though for when she goes to uni He is telling me that although the money will be there he will still get her to get what money she can
Of course. No way could I have gone room uni (and still be studying now) without the loan system. But that's why I think it's so criminal. For the majority of people it's the only way they can afford to go. Only the 'born rich' can afford not to and they are the ones who arguably should be paying the most 'grad tax'. Yet the rich effectively pay far less for their education because their parents can pay it up front. Those of us who are not born to stupidly rich families have no option to take the loan and are lumbered with 30 years of 9% grad tax.
Me too, piss poor mum trying to make do as a single mother.. without the loans I'd have never left my shit hole of an estate... got a degree and now live as a Artist that gets to travel the world and pay back said 30grand debt.
Funny enough a art degree is one of those that's considered pointless, without it though I'd probably be in a box or prison cell like a lot of my mates
Do you live in Brighton, Shino?
Nah I've just moved from totnes Devon to near Hitchin where the GF lives
There's a good steam railway in Totnes isn't there?!
Comments
Nah I've just moved from totnes Devon to near Hitchin where the GF lives
Same with crossings at traffic lights!
Bizarre!
Someone on Twitter claiming its their 56th consecutive televised tie.
If a broadcaster has the rights to a match, do they automatically get the rights to the replay? If so, match 41 (Chelsea, 2013, SF) may actually be the replay, just mislabelled?
But I'm genuinely baffled as to why the cameras and people still talk about this fucking club. They've been shit for years, and the slightest revival (that revival being achieving a play off position in the championship for god's sake), and all of a sudden they're in our faces
Why they showed Spurs Reserves vs Villa, I don't know.
Do you live in Brighton, Shino?
Nah I've just moved from totnes Devon to near Hitchin where the GF lives
@shine166 You've just doubled the Charlton population of Hitchin mate! I grew up in St Albans but moved to Hitchin about 6 years ago, now living just north (a village called Clifton).
Okay Barry from Bradford, you've been in the country 3 days so you've clearly got a better idea of the geopolitical situation in West Africa and a better handle on the military forces massing on border than your government. You stay sitting on your lounger and hope for the best eh...
Nah I've just moved from totnes Devon to near Hitchin where the GF lives
@shine166 You've just doubled the Charlton population of Hitchin mate! I grew up in St Albans but moved to Hitchin about 6 years ago, now living just north (a village called Clifton).
I was born in Hitchin, does that count?