[cite]Posted By: Oggy Red[/cite]We all have the benefit of endless replays from every possible angle.
The referee gets just one chance at the actual time - and his decision is based on what he sees at that one time.
The TV Pundit Muppet Show get the benefit of analysing to death any incident - usually after the match has actually finished.
The benefit of hindsight is a wonderful thing.
Cliches aside Oggy, if you can't see a bloke charging in with his leg at ninety degrees, studs showing and crashing into an opponents chest about 5 yards away from you while your're looking straight at it - then I'm not sure you should be reffing the most important match in the world. You really didn't need ultra-slo-mo to correctly call any of the incidents that I drew attention to. If it'd been a was it in-or-out of the box penalty or a sneaky handball, I'd have some sympathy with the view.
Thought he struggled to keep a lid on the game but in the circumstances he just about rode it out. Could've sent de Jong, Van Bommel and Robben off but tried to maintain diplomacy. Obviously giving a goal kick for the free kick that touched both Fabregas and Casillas was a shocker, but I don't think Elia was fouled in the build up to the goal, just squeezed out and always looking for it.
What more can a referee do when consistently a group of players are seeking to subvert his presence and break the rules. I don't doubt if we had a continental ref that game would've ended 8 v 10 or worse, is that fitting the spectacle of a world cup final?
Holland can talk about refereeing all they like but they would have been lucky to end the game with 9 men let alone 10, maybe if they'd worked out some proper tactics apart from kick Spain off the pitch and give the ball to Robben they might be waking up with winners' medals this morning.
Think rather than Webb getting any stick, every single player on the pitch last night should be ashamed of their behaviour.
Absolutely embarrassing to watch and a poor reflection of the game at the highest level.
There was very little honesty, integrity or fairness at all....full of nasty, niggly and sly challenges which were equalled by just as much verbal sniping and imaginary card waving.
Have to say I cannot wait for the football season (not the prem) to start again when for the majority of the 90 minutes you get honest players giving it their all with minimal diving or card waving bullshit.
Until FIFA have the bollocks to back refs into making strong decisions about diving, card waving and shirt pulling, then the top level game is going to be blighted by these cheating, whining, moaning bastards.
[cite]Posted By: Oggy Red[/cite]We all have the benefit of endless replays from every possible angle.
The referee gets just one chance at the actual time - and his decision is based on what he sees at that one time.
The TV Pundit Muppet Show get the benefit of analysing to death any incident - usually after the match has actually finished.
The benefit of hindsight is a wonderful thing.
Cliches aside Oggy, if you can't see a bloke charging in with his leg at ninety degrees, studs showing and crashing into an opponents chest about 5 yards away from you while your're looking straight at it - then I'm not sure you should be reffing the most important match in the world. You really didn't need ultra-slo-mo to correctly call any of the incidents that I drew attention to. If it'd been a was it in-or-out of the box penalty or a sneaky handball, I'd have some sympathy with the view.
Just my general opinion, rather than a reply to your previous post McLovin.
Specifically to your post above, I agree with you ........ although I must admit when I first saw the incident in open play, I didn't realise that the Spanish player was caught with studs - and so high. As soon as I saw the replay however, I thought red card.
there's probably a decent case for allowing a slight increase in goal size, it should certainly help to counter the negative mindsets in big games like this. Teams like Spain might find they couldn't rely on 1-0s anymore and have to take the bull by the horns and show us some more of their talents.
Could also look at some other attacking amendments eg. be stricter about the backpass rule and include headers / throw ins. Sin bins would've been good last night.
So many games go to penalties after extra time (not last night fortunately) that I think it would be good to trial having penalties BEFORE extra time.
However I believe I'm correct in stating that the present dimensions date back over 100 years and the size of the average player (specifically goalkeeper) has increased considerably in that time.
There may also be an argument for increasing pitch dimensions too.
Didn't see this thread before posting on the match thread about Webb. Rightly or wrongly as far as I'm concerned he did everything he could to keep the game 11 v 11when the players seemd hell bent on doign all they could to get an advantage, both within and outside of the law of the game.
Yes he made a mistake for the 'goalkick' but, given the amount of fouls commited in the game, I think he got pretty much every other one right even when faced with cheating and diving by both sides. Including the decision which ultimately led to the goal. Makes me laugh when Holland have been kicking lumps out of players for 116 minutes that they bleat like an under 12 girls team because a player has been eased off the ball. Quite which way did they want it?
Shame really because I've alwasy liked Holland but the more the game went on the more I wanted Spain to win it.
[cite]Posted By: LenGlover[/cite]There may also be an argument for increasing pitch dimensions too.
I assume you mean the minimum dimensions.
Surely its not practical to do that. Imagine they said increase it by 10 metres - what would we do*
*Assuming we were already at minimum width/length.
It's certainly not something that could happen overnight and, if one thinks changes are needed, goal size is the obvious (and easiest) place to start.
However as athletes get bigger and more proficient in minimising the available space, thus effectively "killing" the game, logically increasing pitch size could eventually be the only way to go.
I guess "we" and other clubs would simply have to sacrifice some ground capacity if it ever did happen.
Makes for interesting reading this. Some very constructive comments and some shall we say 'less than constructive comments' also.
The observations I made were. Howard Webb was in an impossible situation. It's been said (and I agree) he was very lenient and tried to keep it 11v11 and gets critisized for trying to keep the game as much of a spectacle as possible. On the flip side if he applies to laws to the hilt he sends off up to 4 players and is accused of being a card wielding attention seeking idiot (as someone poetically called it) and deliberately ruining the game. So whatever he does, whatever tact he employs it'll cause controversy. I say condemn the players, not the referee. I think he did the best with what he could do and doubt ANY other referee could have done better. He's a very experienced and successful referee trying his damn hardest not to turn the World Cup Final into a farcical joke. Shame the Dutch players weren't so like minded.
It seems a lot of punters are bleating on about the 'goal kick that should have been a corner', there's no way in the world Webb would have awarded a goal kick if he'd seen the incident, but the players saw it, the players knew it was a corner, the player whose back it came off knew it was a corner, did he or his team mates say to Webb that it should have been a corner...?
No they didn't, they never do...!!!
The players know the rules just as well as the referee and they'll cheat as often as possible to gain even the smallest of advantage, that's why I don't have any sympathy for them when the referee does get it wrong...
Had a very good game in my opinion and rather than trying to pick holes in refs the BBC commentators should have said he did well. Over 90mins you are not going to get EVERY decision right - no one ever has and it gets more and more difficult as players are more keen to cheat every game. Could have sent off a couple of the Dutch (before Heitinger went) but I thought for the sake of the game he made the right call each time. Well done Howard Webb.
I think changing the size of goals and/or pitches just isn't practical, the number of pitches and goals already in existence that would need to be changed, at huge expense, would mean you'd have a far wider range of pitch sizes and could be playing with different size goals from week to week at park level.
I think the easiest way to stretch the game and therefore increase the playing areas, without having to physically make the pitch bigger, would be to have a 30 or 35 yard line. You could then only be offside if goal-side of this line This would stretch the play by meaning teams could no longer push up to the half way line, they could only push out 30/35 yards. This stretching of the game would hopefully lead to more goals, and also to better passing as it would mean catching teams on the break should be harder.
It should also lead to fewer offside mistakes being made by linesman as they will only need to cover 30-35 yards instead of 50-60 yards. In theory they should be closer to being in line more of the time.
One thing I have noticed in this world cup is the harshness of the offside calls. The majority have been technically correct, but players have been called offside because their should or chest is further advanced, whilst their feet have been practically inline. I thought the benefit of the doubt went to the striker, but time after time in the last month players have been called offside by a matter of inches.
perhaps you could for example keep the goal width the same but have posts that have two height options, so you can either set to current height and trial the new height. Trial at a league/division level for a season and take it from there.
As for pitch sizes, you could increase the max allowed - and maybe increase the minimum allowed for new pitches.
They used to have a 35yd line in America, but don't anymore do they? Any idea why?
[cite]Posted By: RedZed333[/cite]I liked the experiment they once used in the 'Watney Cup', you couldn't be offside outside the penalty area...
I remember some good free flowing games...
I suppose you could have an 18yd line, would certainly be good for novelty value but wouldn't be suprised to see goal-hanging and route-one football if a permanent change.
I like how everyone thinks it's a good idea to make pitches bigger and stretch games, are they not realising that if this rule was in effect 8 or something years ago, we wouldn't have lasted a single year in the Premiership!
Just wondering why there has been no mention anywhere as to why Inesta wasn't sent off for kicking out at Van Bommel towards the end of normal time? He goes off, Hettinga therefore stays on, and the winning goal is not scored. We may have had different World champions......
Thought Webb had a very good game in the circumstances. As well as the cynical play of the Dutch, there was the usual card-waving antics of the Spanish players, and the fact that he would have been under strict orders to try and keep the game at eleven a side. I think if he looks at it again on video, I'm sure there are things he'll feel he should have done differently (definitely the De Jong kung-fu kick and possibly the van Bommel foul were red card offences), but overall he controlled the game as well as he could.
[cite]Posted By: randy andy[/cite]I think changing the size of goals and/or pitches just isn't practical, the number of pitches and goals already in existence that would need to be changed, at huge expense, would mean you'd have a far wider range of pitch sizes and could be playing with different size goals from week to week at park level.
I think the easiest way to stretch the game and therefore increase the playing areas, without having to physically make the pitch bigger, would be to have a 30 or 35 yard line. You could then only be offside if goal-side of this line This would stretch the play by meaning teams could no longer push up to the half way line, they could only push out 30/35 yards. This stretching of the game would hopefully lead to more goals, and also to better passing as it would mean catching teams on the break should be harder.
It should also lead to fewer offside mistakes being made by linesman as they will only need to cover 30-35 yards instead of 50-60 yards. In theory they should be closer to being in line more of the time.
One thing I have noticed in this world cup is the harshness of the offside calls. The majority have been technically correct, but players have been called offside because their should or chest is further advanced, whilst their feet have been practically inline. I thought the benefit of the doubt went to the striker, but time after time in the last month players have been called offside by a matter of inches.
The official line is any playing part of the body is nearer the goalline than the second last defender so the chest and shoulder (anything below the armpit only is handball) are playing parts of the body. I think there is a huge pressure to get offside calls right so assistants tend to go up in doubt. I do agree though benefit of the doubt goes with the attacker. The offisde law changes (interfering with play etc - active/inactive) were brought in to try and allow more goals to be scored not flag them offside...
The reffing at the world cup has been far better than the football, even taking into account the England goal that never was. Hard to know how it will get better. There are no surprises, players, managers and supporters know about all the players before the thing starts, taking the random element out. We are left with a cynical bunch of millionaires with self interest at heart. Maybe two or three decent games in the whole tournament, which saddens me as I used to love world cups.
Comments
What more can a referee do when consistently a group of players are seeking to subvert his presence and break the rules. I don't doubt if we had a continental ref that game would've ended 8 v 10 or worse, is that fitting the spectacle of a world cup final?
Holland can talk about refereeing all they like but they would have been lucky to end the game with 9 men let alone 10, maybe if they'd worked out some proper tactics apart from kick Spain off the pitch and give the ball to Robben they might be waking up with winners' medals this morning.
Absolutely embarrassing to watch and a poor reflection of the game at the highest level.
There was very little honesty, integrity or fairness at all....full of nasty, niggly and sly challenges which were equalled by just as much verbal sniping and imaginary card waving.
Have to say I cannot wait for the football season (not the prem) to start again when for the majority of the 90 minutes you get honest players giving it their all with minimal diving or card waving bullshit.
Until FIFA have the bollocks to back refs into making strong decisions about diving, card waving and shirt pulling, then the top level game is going to be blighted by these cheating, whining, moaning bastards.
Just my general opinion, rather than a reply to your previous post McLovin.
Specifically to your post above, I agree with you ........ although I must admit when I first saw the incident in open play, I didn't realise that the Spanish player was caught with studs - and so high. As soon as I saw the replay however, I thought red card.
Could also look at some other attacking amendments eg. be stricter about the backpass rule and include headers / throw ins. Sin bins would've been good last night.
So many games go to penalties after extra time (not last night fortunately) that I think it would be good to trial having penalties BEFORE extra time.
However I believe I'm correct in stating that the present dimensions date back over 100 years and the size of the average player (specifically goalkeeper) has increased considerably in that time.
There may also be an argument for increasing pitch dimensions too.
Surely its not practical to do that. Imagine they said increase it by 10 metres - what would we do*
*Assuming we were already at minimum width/length.
Yes he made a mistake for the 'goalkick' but, given the amount of fouls commited in the game, I think he got pretty much every other one right even when faced with cheating and diving by both sides. Including the decision which ultimately led to the goal. Makes me laugh when Holland have been kicking lumps out of players for 116 minutes that they bleat like an under 12 girls team because a player has been eased off the ball. Quite which way did they want it?
Shame really because I've alwasy liked Holland but the more the game went on the more I wanted Spain to win it.
It's certainly not something that could happen overnight and, if one thinks changes are needed, goal size is the obvious (and easiest) place to start.
However as athletes get bigger and more proficient in minimising the available space, thus effectively "killing" the game, logically increasing pitch size could eventually be the only way to go.
I guess "we" and other clubs would simply have to sacrifice some ground capacity if it ever did happen.
The observations I made were. Howard Webb was in an impossible situation. It's been said (and I agree) he was very lenient and tried to keep it 11v11 and gets critisized for trying to keep the game as much of a spectacle as possible. On the flip side if he applies to laws to the hilt he sends off up to 4 players and is accused of being a card wielding attention seeking idiot (as someone poetically called it) and deliberately ruining the game. So whatever he does, whatever tact he employs it'll cause controversy. I say condemn the players, not the referee. I think he did the best with what he could do and doubt ANY other referee could have done better. He's a very experienced and successful referee trying his damn hardest not to turn the World Cup Final into a farcical joke. Shame the Dutch players weren't so like minded.
Well done Howard, Mike and Darren.
No they didn't, they never do...!!!
The players know the rules just as well as the referee and they'll cheat as often as possible to gain even the smallest of advantage, that's why I don't have any sympathy for them when the referee does get it wrong...
I think the easiest way to stretch the game and therefore increase the playing areas, without having to physically make the pitch bigger, would be to have a 30 or 35 yard line. You could then only be offside if goal-side of this line This would stretch the play by meaning teams could no longer push up to the half way line, they could only push out 30/35 yards. This stretching of the game would hopefully lead to more goals, and also to better passing as it would mean catching teams on the break should be harder.
It should also lead to fewer offside mistakes being made by linesman as they will only need to cover 30-35 yards instead of 50-60 yards. In theory they should be closer to being in line more of the time.
One thing I have noticed in this world cup is the harshness of the offside calls. The majority have been technically correct, but players have been called offside because their should or chest is further advanced, whilst their feet have been practically inline. I thought the benefit of the doubt went to the striker, but time after time in the last month players have been called offside by a matter of inches.
I remember some good free flowing games...
As for pitch sizes, you could increase the max allowed - and maybe increase the minimum allowed for new pitches.
They used to have a 35yd line in America, but don't anymore do they? Any idea why?
The official line is any playing part of the body is nearer the goalline than the second last defender so the chest and shoulder (anything below the armpit only is handball) are playing parts of the body. I think there is a huge pressure to get offside calls right so assistants tend to go up in doubt. I do agree though benefit of the doubt goes with the attacker. The offisde law changes (interfering with play etc - active/inactive) were brought in to try and allow more goals to be scored not flag them offside...