Can't help but laugh people think Pele, Maradona and Ronaldo Nazario would have competed against the athletes of today.
Sure they'd be world class, but better than Messi and Ronaldo?
They'd be alongside Neymar, Benzema & Henry etc
Ronaldo was a freak of nature, by the end of the 97-98 season when he was still a few months short of turning 22 he'd ripped it up in Brazil, Holland, Spain and Italy. 179 goals in 200 games in 4 countries and was a star for Brazil.
Madness to say he wouldn't have competed against athletes today. He was a machine.
Pele (57-71), Maradona (77-94) and now Messi (05-22+) are undoubtedly the greatest of their respective generations. It is difficult to compare across generations and I fully understand the fact that Maradona and Pele had lumps kicked out of them game after game, a problem that Messi didn't have to deal with to the same extent.
With that said, if either of those two were better than Messi, they must've been an incredible watch. There are so many magical and memorable moments from throughout this bloke's career, multiple at this World Cup alone (goal vs Mexico, assists vs Netherlands and Croatia)...
There is a massive caveat to that though. Maradona wasn't the best player in the world in 1977. He didn't even make the world cup squad in 78. He certainly wasn't the best player in the world in the early 90s.
It's probably only about 84ish to about 87ish he was clearly the best player in the world but he was, for a while, miles better than everyone else.
Pele is probably the same, although everyone saw much less of him than even Maradona, you could argue that Pele wasn't the best player that played for Brazil in any of those 3 world cup wins. Then towards the end you have people like Best, Muller, Beckenbauer that would have a claim to be the best.
That's the remarkable thing really about Messi and Ronaldo, was their best ever as good as some of the others? We will never know, as much fun as it is discussing it. No two players have ever had the GOAT, or even best currently in the world, go back and forth for over a decade before.
One thing is certain, Messi is better than Ronaldo NOW. Is he currently the best player in the world? Probably not.
I would say Pelé and Brazil revolutionised how we view football: the dominance of association football vs rugby football for entertainment was not guaranteed and they helped to make it the most democratic, accessible and international sport.
Sorry, are you saying that in the 50’s rugby was close to topping football in terms of popularity?
I have never heard anything remotely like that
I must admit that doesn't make much sense to me now either 😉 I meant Pelé and Brazil emphasized the beauty of football, which has helped it's popularity.
Can't help but laugh people think Pele, Maradona and Ronaldo Nazario would have competed against the athletes of today.
Sure they'd be world class, but better than Messi and Ronaldo?
They'd be alongside Neymar, Benzema & Henry etc
Ronaldo was a freak of nature, by the end of the 97-98 season when he was still a few months short of turning 22 he'd ripped it up in Brazil, Holland, Spain and Italy. 179 goals in 200 games in 4 countries and was a star for Brazil.
Madness to say he wouldn't have competed against athletes today. He was a machine.
I was talking with my youngest today, who was 7 in 98 when the controversy over Ronaldo hit on the final day, and 11 when he ripped into everyone in 2002 - he just remembers the former and will never forget the latter. He adores Messi and CR7 but readily admits that Ronaldo Luís Nazário de Lima was the deadliest striker he has ever seen, and arguably the GOAT. (he never saw Pele or Bestie!). I find it hard to disagree.
He also highly recommends the Netflix (I think) documentary on him which I am yet to see.
Goofy would have been the best number 9 in ANY generation.
I think it’s fair to say it’s a debate that has absolutely no way of being objectively proved one way or another, purely because of the different eras involved.
It’s not too dissimilar to the question that gets asked about whether a player is “world class” or not. What does that even mean? It’s a very loose term.
”Greatest” is also a loose term. What do we define it on exactly?
If Argentina lose that penalty shootout yesterday, does Messi’s ability somehow diminish? Surely not.
I’ve always felt as though a more suitable debate is rather than who is the “greatest”, but who is the most “iconic”. Which player resonates most with people as someone who most personifies the elite game in the entirety of its history?
Again - it’s open to debate, and entirely subjective. But it’s very hard to make empirical judgements and comparisons about players like Pele, who frankly, hardly anybody under the age of 60 has seen play a live game. You’ve got 18 year olds on Twitter trying to tell people that he’s above Messi ffs.
And that’s why for me, the “greatest” should be about who brought the most impact to football fans and players around the world. Yes, it favours those of the modern era who benefit from the exposure of television and the internet. But it also goes hand in hand with the game being at its peak in athleticism and difficulty.
Is there a player of that top tier level who has given the game more joy, to more people, than Lionel Messi? I’m not sure there has been. Thats why I would class him as the most iconic footballer of all time, whilst everyone else can debate who is the ‘best’
I think it’s fair to say it’s a debate that has absolutely no way of being objectively proved one way or another, purely because of the different eras involved.
It’s not too dissimilar to the question that gets asked about whether a player is “world class” or not. What does that even mean? It’s a very loose term.
”Greatest” is also a loose term. What do we define it on exactly?
If Argentina lose that penalty shootout yesterday, does Messi’s ability somehow diminish? Surely not.
I’ve always felt as though a more suitable debate is rather than who is the “greatest”, but who is the most “iconic”. Which player resonates most with people as someone who most personifies the elite game in the entirety of its history?
Again - it’s open to debate, and entirely subjective. But it’s very hard to make empirical judgements and comparisons about players like Pele, who frankly, hardly anybody under the age of 60 has seen play a live game. You’ve got 18 year olds on Twitter trying to tell people that he’s above Messi ffs.
And that’s why for me, the “greatest” should be about who brought the most impact to football fans and players around the world. Yes, it favours those of the modern era who benefit from the exposure of television and the internet. But it also goes hand in hand with the game being at its peak in athleticism and difficulty.
Is there a player of that top tier level who has given the game more joy, to more people, than Lionel Messi? I’m not sure there has been. Thats why I would class him as the most iconic footballer of all time, whilst everyone else can debate who is the ‘best’
Very good points. Opinion regarding icons is also related to the age of the opinion holder of course. Of a time and place and one of the reasons I rate Best so highly - in my formative years he was an icon that transcended football.
Impossible to say who was the greatest (I believe he was) because no real time comparisons are possible, but very few people of any age would be hard pressed to argue against Muhammad Ali being the most iconic boxer of all time (indeed the most iconic sportsman of all time). If the same argument is applied to football then absolutely Messi is in that picture.
I think it’s fair to say it’s a debate that has absolutely no way of being objectively proved one way or another, purely because of the different eras involved.
It’s not too dissimilar to the question that gets asked about whether a player is “world class” or not. What does that even mean? It’s a very loose term.
”Greatest” is also a loose term. What do we define it on exactly?
If Argentina lose that penalty shootout yesterday, does Messi’s ability somehow diminish? Surely not.
I’ve always felt as though a more suitable debate is rather than who is the “greatest”, but who is the most “iconic”. Which player resonates most with people as someone who most personifies the elite game in the entirety of its history?
Again - it’s open to debate, and entirely subjective. But it’s very hard to make empirical judgements and comparisons about players like Pele, who frankly, hardly anybody under the age of 60 has seen play a live game. You’ve got 18 year olds on Twitter trying to tell people that he’s above Messi ffs.
And that’s why for me, the “greatest” should be about who brought the most impact to football fans and players around the world. Yes, it favours those of the modern era who benefit from the exposure of television and the internet. But it also goes hand in hand with the game being at its peak in athleticism and difficulty.
Is there a player of that top tier level who has given the game more joy, to more people, than Lionel Messi? I’m not sure there has been. Thats why I would class him as the most iconic footballer of all time, whilst everyone else can debate who is the ‘best’
Very good points. Opinion regarding icons is also related to the age of the opinion holder of course. Of a time and place and one of the reasons I rate Best so highly - in my formative years he was an icon that transcended football.
Impossible to say who was the greatest (I believe he was) because no real time comparisons are possible, but very few people of any age would be hard pressed to argue against Muhammad Ali being the most iconic boxer of all time (indeed the most iconic sportsman of all time). If the same argument is applied to football then absolutely Messi is in that picture.
What helps Messi’s case in this regard is his longevity. He’s been playing at the top level of football for about 16-17 years now, and of which he has been in the conversation of ‘all time greats’ for about 12 of them.
Therefore, for anyone who is a child right up to the age of 35-40 - Lionel Messi is the top player of their lifetime. I’m the same age as him, and have been watching him do what he does for nearly half of my life.
Maradona didn’t hold that longevity, and Pele didn’t have the exposure.
I think it’s fair to say it’s a debate that has absolutely no way of being objectively proved one way or another, purely because of the different eras involved.
It’s not too dissimilar to the question that gets asked about whether a player is “world class” or not. What does that even mean? It’s a very loose term.
”Greatest” is also a loose term. What do we define it on exactly?
If Argentina lose that penalty shootout yesterday, does Messi’s ability somehow diminish? Surely not.
I’ve always felt as though a more suitable debate is rather than who is the “greatest”, but who is the most “iconic”. Which player resonates most with people as someone who most personifies the elite game in the entirety of its history?
Again - it’s open to debate, and entirely subjective. But it’s very hard to make empirical judgements and comparisons about players like Pele, who frankly, hardly anybody under the age of 60 has seen play a live game. You’ve got 18 year olds on Twitter trying to tell people that he’s above Messi ffs.
And that’s why for me, the “greatest” should be about who brought the most impact to football fans and players around the world. Yes, it favours those of the modern era who benefit from the exposure of television and the internet. But it also goes hand in hand with the game being at its peak in athleticism and difficulty.
Is there a player of that top tier level who has given the game more joy, to more people, than Lionel Messi? I’m not sure there has been. Thats why I would class him as the most iconic footballer of all time, whilst everyone else can debate who is the ‘best’
Very good points. Opinion regarding icons is also related to the age of the opinion holder of course. Of a time and place and one of the reasons I rate Best so highly - in my formative years he was an icon that transcended football.
Impossible to say who was the greatest (I believe he was) because no real time comparisons are possible, but very few people of any age would be hard pressed to argue against Muhammad Ali being the most iconic boxer of all time (indeed the most iconic sportsman of all time). If the same argument is applied to football then absolutely Messi is in that picture.
What helps Messi’s case in this regard is his longevity. He’s been playing at the top level of football for about 16-17 years now, and of which he has been in the conversation of ‘all time greats’ for about 12 of them.
Therefore, for anyone who is a child right up to the age of 35-40 - Lionel Messi is the top player of their lifetime. I’m the same age as him, and have been watching him do what he does for nearly half of my life.
Maradona didn’t hold that longevity, and Pele didn’t have the exposure.
Some players are 'great' for a short period but Messi has kept going at the top for such a long time. A fantastic player.
What holds Messi back in this debate is a bizarre nostalgia people have for World Cups, as if a random tournament every four years has to define your entire footballing career and how we rank your greatness. To put it in perspective, if Higuain takes three relatively simple chances by his standards, we're potentially saying Messi has 2 World Cups and 3 Copas. If Martinez doesn't make a great save to stop Muani, then Messi ends his career with 1 Copa, So for many, with their absurd logic, Messi's greatness would be enhanced/determined by the split second fortunes of Hugain and Muani.
I just cannot see any remote case for rating any player in history anywhere near Messi. I don't even think it's close.
Many like to mention Maradona and he was a joy to watch but his global reputation is built upon playing brilliantly in a handful of games in 86. He also did very well to mastermind Napoli's success for a couple of seasons. However, his top scoring season ever in a European league was 16 goals. Messi almost doubled Maradona's best season in about 12 seasons consecutively. In Messi's best season he scored over three times as many league goals. He did it with better players, on better pitches etc but the idea that if you transport the absolute peak of Messi (91 goals in a calendar year) into the late 80s Napoli team and he wouldn't be able to exceed Maradona's impact, seems utterly bizarre to believe. The idea that Maradona with Xavi and Iniesta around him would have scored 50 league goals in a season at his best, surely takes an enormous leap of imagination. We shouldn't forget that peak Maradona was at Barcelona with elite players alongside him and they sold him two seasons later having won nothing of note.
Even comparing them to players of their own era you have to acknowledge Messi winning 8 pichichi awards and six European golden boots at a time when he was competing with the out and out goal scoring determination of Ronaldo. Maradona for instance was Serie A top scorer once, with his 16 goals. That's it for his career. This wild sentimentality sees many claim Maradona was better at his peak but I put that largely down to English fans being focused on Premier League and World Cup. Anyone who watched Messi play every week for Barca between about 2008 and 2014 will know just how absurdly good he was. It was a level never seen before in football. The guy scored in 21 consecutive La Liga games, he scored against every team in the league consecutively. He was scoring at absolute will, he was top scorer in 4 consecutive seasons in Champions league from 08-09 to 11-12, winning two of the competitions along the way. Just watching him, you knew no one could compete with him - he was tearing Real Madrid to pieces regularly who were clearly the second best team in the world. The notion he wasn't hacked like in the 80s can be dispelled by watching videos of his dribbling compilations on YouTube. He has players flying at him from all angles but his speed and astonishingly strong balance means no one could knock him down. Maradona had very strong balance but it wasn't as good as Messi's.
The guy has spent 15 years at the very top of the game against opposition who are fully primed, thoroughbred, totally professional athletes. At 35, an absolute shadow of his former self, he hauls a pretty average Argie team to victories in the Copa America and World Cup just to emphasise the point. He scores close to 800 career goals predominantly in the strongest league in the world (check out the success of Spanish teams in the Europa League over the past 15 years if you doubt the depth of the league), whilst still being the player who by some distance has the most assists in the history of the game....all done in the elite professional era. He switches position when he loses pace and proves he's still one of the top 2 or 3 players in the world at this age.
I have literally no idea why people have to pretend that older players were better when no one has the track record to even come close to competing with Messi's resume. If that isn't enough, just watch the quality of his say top 50 goals on YouTube. They're disgustingly good and varied. He's not a one trick pony, he's scoring worldies consistently. Brilliance can become boring and nostalgia/wishful thinking can be very attractive. I'm unsure exactly why we have to overlook all the evidence that sits in front of us. 15 years of evidence gets overlooked because people want to be contrarian or wear rose tinted glasses about childhood heroes. I've heard people say the original Ronaldo was better and Mbappe will one day be better - I just don't know what they're watching. Can people really not see that the ceiling of Messi's talent was patently levels above. What Messi was capable of and actually delivered over a long period of time is in another league to levels that for instance Mbappe will ever reach. The latter may be best player in the world now but he's technically so far behind where Messi once was and will never come close to making up that talent deficit.
Overall it just seems sad that so many don't appreciate what they witnessed. They don't seem to realise that a once in a century (probably more), talent has been playing for the last 15 years. It seems crazy to say it but I'm convinced Messi is underrated. People don't feel willing to acknowledge or simply weren't watching enough to see, that Messi is clearly the greatest player ever and by quite some distance.
What holds Messi back in this debate is a bizarre nostalgia people have for World Cups, as if a random tournament every four years has to define your entire footballing career and how we rank your greatness. To put it in perspective, if Higuain takes three relatively simple chances by his standards, we're potentially saying Messi has 2 World Cups and 3 Copas. If Martinez doesn't make a great save to stop Muani, then Messi ends his career with 1 Copa, So for many, with their absurd logic, Messi's greatness would be enhanced/determined by the split second fortunes of Hugain and Muani.
I just cannot see any remote case for rating any player in history anywhere near Messi. I don't even think it's close.
Many like to mention Maradona and he was a joy to watch but his global reputation is built upon playing brilliantly in a handful of games in 86. He also did very well to mastermind Napoli's success for a couple of seasons. However, his top scoring season ever in a European league was 16 goals. Messi almost doubled Maradona's best season in about 12 seasons consecutively. In Messi's best season he scored over three times as many league goals. He did it with better players, on better pitches etc but the idea that if you transport the absolute peak of Messi (91 goals in a calendar year) into the late 80s Napoli team and he wouldn't be able to exceed Maradona's impact, seems utterly bizarre to believe. The idea that Maradona with Xavi and Iniesta around him would have scored 50 league goals in a season at his best, surely takes an enormous leap of imagination. We shouldn't forget that peak Maradona was at Barcelona with elite players alongside him and they sold him two seasons later having won nothing of note.
Even comparing them to players of their own era you have to acknowledge Messi winning 8 pichichi awards and six European golden boots at a time when he was competing with the out and out goal scoring determination of Ronaldo. Maradona for instance was Serie A top scorer once, with his 16 goals. That's it for his career. This wild sentimentality sees many claim Maradona was better at his peak but I put that largely down to English fans being focused on Premier League and World Cup. Anyone who watched Messi play every week for Barca between about 2008 and 2014 will know just how absurdly good he was. It was a level never seen before in football. The guy scored in 21 consecutive La Liga games, he scored against every team in the league consecutively. He was scoring at absolute will, he was top scorer in 4 consecutive seasons in Champions league from 08-09 to 11-12, winning two of the competitions along the way. Just watching him, you knew no one could compete with him - he was tearing Real Madrid to pieces regularly who were clearly the second best team in the world. The notion he wasn't hacked like in the 80s can be dispelled by watching videos of his dribbling compilations on YouTube. He has players flying at him from all angles but his speed and astonishingly strong balance means no one could knock him down. Maradona had very strong balance but it wasn't as good as Messi's.
The guy has spent 15 years at the very top of the game against opposition who are fully primed, thoroughbred, totally professional athletes. At 35, an absolute shadow of his former self, he hauls a pretty average Argie team to victories in the Copa America and World Cup just to emphasise the point. He scores close to 800 career goals predominantly in the strongest league in the world (check out the success of Spanish teams in the Europa League over the past 15 years if you doubt the depth of the league), whilst still being the player who by some distance has the most assists in the history of the game....all done in the elite professional era. He switches position when he loses pace and proves he's still one of the top 2 or 3 players in the world at this age.
I have literally no idea why people have to pretend that older players were better when no one has the track record to even come close to competing with Messi's resume. If that isn't enough, just watch the quality of his say top 50 goals on YouTube. They're disgustingly good and varied. He's not a one trick pony, he's scoring worldies consistently. Brilliance can become boring and nostalgia/wishful thinking can be very attractive. I'm unsure exactly why we have to overlook all the evidence that sits in front of us. 15 years of evidence gets overlooked because people want to be contrarian or wear rose tinted glasses about childhood heroes. I've heard people say the original Ronaldo was better and Mbappe will one day be better - I just don't know what they're watching. Can people really not see that the ceiling of Messi's talent was patently levels above. What Messi was capable of and actually delivered over a long period of time is in another league to levels that for instance Mbappe will ever reach. The latter may be best player in the world now but he's technically so far behind where Messi once was and will never come close to making up that talent deficit.
Overall it just seems sad that so many don't appreciate what they witnessed. They don't seem to realise that a once in a century (probably more), talent has been playing for the last 15 years. It seems crazy to say it but I'm convinced Messi is underrated. People don't feel willing to acknowledge or simply weren't watching enough to see, that Messi is clearly the greatest player ever and by quite some distance.
So yeah, I'm sitting on the fence with this one.
I agree, however I'm not in a position to judge pre 2000 as I only started watching post that.
But Messi has been a cut above anyone else I've ever seen, always rated him well above Ronaldo. Not saying he is better than Pele maradona etc.
But if they were better than Messi then they would be even more a freak.
Comments
Madness to say he wouldn't have competed against athletes today. He was a machine.
It's probably only about 84ish to about 87ish he was clearly the best player in the world but he was, for a while, miles better than everyone else.
Pele is probably the same, although everyone saw much less of him than even Maradona, you could argue that Pele wasn't the best player that played for Brazil in any of those 3 world cup wins. Then towards the end you have people like Best, Muller, Beckenbauer that would have a claim to be the best.
That's the remarkable thing really about Messi and Ronaldo, was their best ever as good as some of the others? We will never know, as much fun as it is discussing it. No two players have ever had the GOAT, or even best currently in the world, go back and forth for over a decade before.
One thing is certain, Messi is better than Ronaldo NOW. Is he currently the best player in the world? Probably not.
”Greatest” is also a loose term. What do we define it on exactly?
If Argentina lose that penalty shootout yesterday, does Messi’s ability somehow diminish? Surely not.
Again - it’s open to debate, and entirely subjective. But it’s very hard to make empirical judgements and comparisons about players like Pele, who frankly, hardly anybody under the age of 60 has seen play a live game. You’ve got 18 year olds on Twitter trying to tell people that he’s above Messi ffs.
And that’s why for me, the “greatest” should be about who brought the most impact to football fans and players around the world. Yes, it favours those of the modern era who benefit from the exposure of television and the internet. But it also goes hand in hand with the game being at its peak in athleticism and difficulty.
Maradona didn’t hold that longevity, and Pele didn’t have the exposure.
I just cannot see any remote case for rating any player in history anywhere near Messi. I don't even think it's close.
Many like to mention Maradona and he was a joy to watch but his global reputation is built upon playing brilliantly in a handful of games in 86. He also did very well to mastermind Napoli's success for a couple of seasons. However, his top scoring season ever in a European league was 16 goals. Messi almost doubled Maradona's best season in about 12 seasons consecutively. In Messi's best season he scored over three times as many league goals. He did it with better players, on better pitches etc but the idea that if you transport the absolute peak of Messi (91 goals in a calendar year) into the late 80s Napoli team and he wouldn't be able to exceed Maradona's impact, seems utterly bizarre to believe. The idea that Maradona with Xavi and Iniesta around him would have scored 50 league goals in a season at his best, surely takes an enormous leap of imagination. We shouldn't forget that peak Maradona was at Barcelona with elite players alongside him and they sold him two seasons later having won nothing of note.
Even comparing them to players of their own era you have to acknowledge Messi winning 8 pichichi awards and six European golden boots at a time when he was competing with the out and out goal scoring determination of Ronaldo. Maradona for instance was Serie A top scorer once, with his 16 goals. That's it for his career. This wild sentimentality sees many claim Maradona was better at his peak but I put that largely down to English fans being focused on Premier League and World Cup. Anyone who watched Messi play every week for Barca between about 2008 and 2014 will know just how absurdly good he was. It was a level never seen before in football. The guy scored in 21 consecutive La Liga games, he scored against every team in the league consecutively. He was scoring at absolute will, he was top scorer in 4 consecutive seasons in Champions league from 08-09 to 11-12, winning two of the competitions along the way. Just watching him, you knew no one could compete with him - he was tearing Real Madrid to pieces regularly who were clearly the second best team in the world. The notion he wasn't hacked like in the 80s can be dispelled by watching videos of his dribbling compilations on YouTube. He has players flying at him from all angles but his speed and astonishingly strong balance means no one could knock him down. Maradona had very strong balance but it wasn't as good as Messi's.
The guy has spent 15 years at the very top of the game against opposition who are fully primed, thoroughbred, totally professional athletes. At 35, an absolute shadow of his former self, he hauls a pretty average Argie team to victories in the Copa America and World Cup just to emphasise the point. He scores close to 800 career goals predominantly in the strongest league in the world (check out the success of Spanish teams in the Europa League over the past 15 years if you doubt the depth of the league), whilst still being the player who by some distance has the most assists in the history of the game....all done in the elite professional era. He switches position when he loses pace and proves he's still one of the top 2 or 3 players in the world at this age.
I have literally no idea why people have to pretend that older players were better when no one has the track record to even come close to competing with Messi's resume. If that isn't enough, just watch the quality of his say top 50 goals on YouTube. They're disgustingly good and varied. He's not a one trick pony, he's scoring worldies consistently. Brilliance can become boring and nostalgia/wishful thinking can be very attractive. I'm unsure exactly why we have to overlook all the evidence that sits in front of us. 15 years of evidence gets overlooked because people want to be contrarian or wear rose tinted glasses about childhood heroes. I've heard people say the original Ronaldo was better and Mbappe will one day be better - I just don't know what they're watching. Can people really not see that the ceiling of Messi's talent was patently levels above. What Messi was capable of and actually delivered over a long period of time is in another league to levels that for instance Mbappe will ever reach. The latter may be best player in the world now but he's technically so far behind where Messi once was and will never come close to making up that talent deficit.
Overall it just seems sad that so many don't appreciate what they witnessed. They don't seem to realise that a once in a century (probably more), talent has been playing for the last 15 years. It seems crazy to say it but I'm convinced Messi is underrated. People don't feel willing to acknowledge or simply weren't watching enough to see, that Messi is clearly the greatest player ever and by quite some distance.
So yeah, I'm sitting on the fence with this one.
But Messi has been a cut above anyone else I've ever seen, always rated him well above Ronaldo. Not saying he is better than Pele maradona etc.
But if they were better than Messi then they would be even more a freak.