i believe one solution would be, following the set up of the supporters trust (which will not be an overnight process), the existing fans forum should remain in place reporting to the trust with its findings/ answering any questions at least until the end of the season. then once the trust has become firmly established an election from the supporters trust could take place for new fans forum members, with existing fans forum members also able to stand for re-election.
[cite]Posted By: demodainty[/cite]i believe one solution would be, following the set up of the supporters trust (which will not be an overnight process), the existing fans forum should remain in place reporting to the trust with its findings/ answering any questions at least until the end of the season. then once the trust has become firmly established an election from the supporters trust could take place for new fans forum members, with existing fans forum members also able to stand for re-election.
Demodainty can you explain why, when at the moment any Charlton supporter can stand for or elect the Fans Forum and any supporter can ask the FF to raise issues on their behalf, that you think that it would be better to have them answering to and being appointed by the trust?
To my mind the Trust will always be an "elite". It'll always be a subset of all Charlton supporters, so giving it power over the Forum is, by definition, reducing the extent to which the Forum represents non-Trust members (e.g. the vast majority of fans).
I don't know anybody that thinks having layers and layers of committees in government is a great idea, but this proposal seems to be begging to add a new layer to our supporters representation. I can't see a single upside to it.
mc lovin, i agree that the supporters trust should not have complete control over the fans forum as this would not give a fair representation to the non supporters trust members. what i meant was that the supporters trust could elect someone to join the fans forum to represent them. all i hope is that the fans forum can continue to do their could work of representing the supporters, whether or not a supporters trust is formed.
Why couldn't the Fans Forum be the chairmen of the trust ? Then the two would be working together as one (they could even have a new name ! Charlton Athletic Supporters Trust Forum - just rolls off the tounge).
I actually think rather than a trust being "elitist" it would be more inclusive as it would embrace all fans and each would be equal members.
I agree with demodainty and se9addick. Not everybody who would see himself on the Fans Forum would also be ready to part of a Trust committee, because the Trust will get involved with things that the Forum cannot tackle, even if it wanted to. I definitely think the two should be linked, and if Dave and Terry turn out to be prominent in the Trust, then I think they'd do a great job.
The FF has to concern itself with a lot of relatively mundane stuff, but which still matters to people. So we need it. But we need the Trust too to take care of the heavy stuff.
The Trust needs to be organised so that it is democratic, people running it are accountable, and nobody disappears up their own asses. But we ought to be capable of setting up such a structure, especially when there is so much support and examples from other clubs.
Forgive me for arriving late at this, but skimming the content I saw a suggestion that a ST could buy the football pitch at the Valley (an idea from the estimable Len Glover I believe). If those who collectively own Charlton could be persuaded to sell a Supporters trust the pitch alone, and the ST vowed to give it free to whomsoever wishes to have Charlton Athletic playing on it (and for no other purpose such as housing development) I would be willing to pay for a 'plot', a twentythousandth if you like....maybe others would also want to, and be on some kind of 'scroll of honour' or whatever. Raise four or five million quid (and give it to Pardew to spend.....only joking), which, by agreement with the owners, is put to approved use (yeah that would be the tricky bit). A ST buying bits of the Valley stage by stage might appeal to some people.
Demodainty can you explain why, when at the moment any Charlton supporter can stand for or elect the Fans Forum and any supporter can ask the FF to raise issues on their behalf, that you think that it would be better to have them answering to and being appointed by the trust?
[cite]Posted By: McLovin[/cite] if there'd been more people putting themselves forward, then it would have been put to a fans' vote in the way the old Director role was).
[/quote]
That's an assumption on your part. There's no framework in place to elect the fans' forum members, the club gives itself the right to vet them and in the past, to my knowledge, it has prevented people it had issues with standing for election as director (not me!).
The club really doesn't like organising elections or what might come out of them, which is why it was usually so tardy re-electing the supporters' director and several times asked the incumbent if they would stay on instead.
I accept the point that you wouldn't want to exclude people who weren't members of the trust from representation, but I find the notion that what exists is more representative than people chosen (elected) through the trust a bit quaint.
In fact, organisations whose officers ARE accountable to their members, like Maidstone CASC, were recently told that in future they would liaise with the club through fans' forum members who haven't been elected. That's because it suits the club; it has nothing to do with due process.
In fairness, it's not a conspiracy either, it's just a mess. But with the club having removed the legal basis on which they were entitled to manage the representation, through membership of the board, I see no reason why the club should be involved in deciding who speaks for fans at all. Nobody would have thought they should decide the officers of the supporters' club 20 years ago, would they?
[cite]Posted By: se9addick[/cite]
I think no one is worried because there is nothing to worry about at the moment. The meeting is one to look at viability, how the Trust may operate and what are it’s goals and aspirations.
As far as I can see it, decisions would be made on the basis of membership rather than equity holding, as all equity purchased by the trust would be held in the trusts name rather than the individual who donated that specific amount of money.
My personal wish is that the Trust would slot in alongside the Forum, basically giving it a bit of bite. It would make the board more accountable to the fans (and the Fans Forum), something which this summer has shown is sorely missing.
Well, if it works out along those lines, then it'll turn out to have been a pretty fine idea to be fair.
so are we saying we might not trust the Trust ? well i trust the Trust.Trust thats clear.
Some should remember that this club once banned its away travel branch (Valley Away)-------we was in the third level of footie at the time. We are a long way from the dark days of tha but the last few weeks remind me of how bad comunications/relations once were.As for the club deciding who they would(or not) have on the FF or as a Fans Diretor thats just bollox----i dont remeber having a criminal records check before they cashed my cheque re buying shares !
I think there is a role for both the Fans Forum and the Supporters Trust, but their remits are rather different. The very existence of the fans forum and the degree of engagement with the club is entirely down to what the board feels like. In the absence of any other kind of representation the members of the forum have done a sterling job in getting answers out of the club, but basically it's a relationship between a business and its customers. It makes good sense to maintain good channels of communication, but there's no obligation to.
As I understand it, at its best, a Supporters Trust can have some real clout, because if it owns a stake in the club, then the club does have certain obligations to it. However, I don't know what level of investment the Trust would need to be able to make in order to achieve that kind of stake. It's certainly not something we would be able to do overnight, particularly in the current financial climate, but I think it's worth having the trust in place in preparation for things getting even worse than they are now. Having said that, while I think having a stake in the club is an important aim for a Supporters Trust, we'd need to be careful that we don't overstate what we can achieve in the short term.
I agree with much of that Ali. The ST may not be able to buy shares in the club even if it wants to. It is also right to keep expectations at a reasonable level. That said I think the ST should be clear in its overall aims, and in my view they should be about seeking to ensure the long term survival of the club at it's home by working to ensure that those who run the club are aware of the ST/Fans desires and understand that any move to undermine the status quo will be met with a robust challenge by the ST. That the ST builds a fund to fight for its aims and will use it benignly if the club is managed well and in the interests of Fans/ST and use it belligerantly if the management takes a more fan hostile or sinister route.
Unfortunately due to work and personal committments i wont be able to make the meeting or commit any real time to helping the ST.
Financially i may be able to help in the future towards it but to me the word TRUST is the big issue here and it will require someone of real TRUST to be in charge of the ST.
For the ST to have any real credibilty i think it's chairperson would have to be a well respected figure in the charlton community that was known to more than just a few fans.
Forgive my rudeness but i think AFKA (if his personal situation allows him) would be the ideal candidate for this position cos i believe already he has the respect of a good number of fans and most of the charlton board ... so vote AFKA!!
Hey, now I am looking at some sensible opinions. Thanks to Airman Brown, SE9Addick, Mortimerician, Aliwibble and bingaddick.
My concern is that we find the right people to do the job.
At the end of the day, the FF has been set up by the Board to sort fan customer service issues that it no longer has the staff to handle and having read every word of the minutes, they are doing an ok job of that (IMO). Until the Club can afford its own employees, they obviously have a valuable role.
The ST however should be a completely different organisation which hopefully ensures fans representation, interests and views for the longterm success and viability of the club - and the key points are that it is set up by the fans and a completely different skill set and experience is required.
To that end, I would suggest that it is in our interests to not only decide the aims of the ST but also agree the criteria for choosing its 'officers'.
We have roughly 2 weeks until the first meeting on the 4th so I would also suggest we start thinking about who we know that has the professional expertise and experience to run an organisation like this on our behalf (I am sure you 'movers and shakers' are already so please excuse me . . sucking eggs and all that).
With the high amount of responsiblity involved in this, let's not fall into the trap of voting in whoever has an opinion and the time to stand up to spout it (don't get me wrong, I am not having a go at anyone). We need fans that are experienced in accountancy, the law, marketing, public relations, entrepreneurs etc. Our fan base does include these people, we just need to advertise what we need and identify them.
I know this won't be easy, not least because professionals will find it hard to deal with the public (they normally deal with fellow business people who have an understanding of what they are talking about) so pursuasion will be needed and suitable caveats extended.
For a start, let's grasp the bull by the horns. How about talking to the club about an article on the OS, the email bulletins and talking to the SLP etc. to advertise the meeting?
If we don't extend the net as far as possible, I'm concerned we won't have much to choose from! (no offence to fellow participants)
[cite]Posted By: m2[/cite]
For a start, let's grasp the bull by the horns. How about talking to the club about an article on the OS, the email bulletins and tal
Have already e-mailed the club to see if we can have an article on the o/s but received no response - I think maybe they would consider it Inappropriate for the O/S to report this. I did however manage to infiltrate the “your views” section !
SLP is a good idea – I’ll try and find an e-mail address and see what they think of it.
M2. you make some valid suggestions although you are way way off when you say
"At the end of the day, the FF has been set up by the Board to sort fan customer service issues that it no longer has the staff to handle"
However this shouldn't be a debate about the FF. This is about starting the process of setting up a Supporters' Trust.
I think there is a danger of jumping too far ahead. We've not had the initial meeting yet. If it happens it will be a long term project and all the issue about who and what can be discussed and voted on. People with the right abilities will come forward if they feel it is right for them.
Good ideas about the OS and the SLP M2, please take the first post on this thread and send to them and let us all know what response you get.
All great ideas but in terms of coverage in local papers and everything I think we should wait until we have had the initial meeting.
There is no harm in putting a general feeler out but in terms of recruitment, advertising and promoting the trust (or even promoting the idea) should be properly campaigned out for maximum effectiveness.
well i do hope that at the meeting. that like oohaah has already given his support to afka, i would hope that more people get behind him in this. he has certainly united the fans with some fantastic initiatives in the past such as the demelza house campaign right through to his open letter to derek chappell. i don't see anyone else that the fans wholly trust at the moment,but with afka i also feel that you will get this and he also has more in common with all of us and will fight for our rights and not be a passive player in these difficult times.
Hope to be able to get along to the meeting, and all being well offer some support to Inspector Sands, WSS and co in terms of the communications/PR side of things.
Nothing against AFKA and I agree with what people are saying but I think that firstly it's up to him to decide if he wants to be involved, like everyone else, when he has had a chance to hear more about the idea of a trust.
I also think we need to remember that there are a whole load of Charlton fans outside Charlton Life. Don't want to exclude them or give those few people who have a downer on CL an excuse to dismiss the whole Trust idea because someone has suggested AFKA.
This isn't an CL thing. It's on all the other boards, thanks to SE9 and others.
The opportunity is there for fans to get involved now or in the future when they can see how it pans out.
[cite]Posted By: demodainty[/cite]
mc lovin, i agree that the supporters trust should not have complete control over the fans forum as this would not give a fair representation to the non supporters trust members. what i meant was that the supporters trust could elect someone to join the fans forum to represent them. all i hope is that the fans forum can continue to do their could work of representing the supporters, whether or not a supporters trust is formed.
Not necessarily disagreing with what you are saying but I think it's only fair that you tell people you are a member of the Fans Forum just in case they weren't aware of that.
[cite]Posted By: Airman Brown[/cite]
That's an assumption on your part. There's no framework in place to elect the fans' forum members, the club gives itself the right to vet them and in the past, to my knowledge, it has prevented people it had issues with standing for election as director (not me!).
Well, you'd know better than me, for sure Airman: I stand corrected. It would be useful I think, if we could, to get a view from the club as to whether they would allow free-election before suggesting that the ST takes a more active role.
My concern really is of the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" variety, and the current group strike me as doing all the right stuff.
[cite]Posted By: Airman Brown[/cite]
That's an assumption on your part. There's no framework in place to elect the fans' forum members, the club gives itself the right to vet them and in the past, to my knowledge, it has prevented people it had issues with standing for election as director (not me!).
Well, you'd know better than me, for sure Airman: I stand corrected. It would be useful I think, if we could, to get a view from the club as to whether they would allow free-election before suggesting that the ST takes a more active role.
My concern really is of the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" variety, and the current group strike me as doing all the right stuff.
Have to agree with McL here. I think the greatest difficulty we have with the potential setting up of an ST is timing. We are currently going through some traumatic times in terms of faith and the board and by setting up an ST at this time runs the possibility of actually rubbing the board up the wrong way and an ST could actually be seen as more confrontational rather than a benefit to the club. If we are to be taken over then, as far as fans are concerned, a whole new era is about to begin and we will need to form new bridges with the new board, a good bond is less likely if we present as an organisation being born out of no confidence in the board's ability to run the club satisfactorily....
It is legitimate to ask if this is a good time to start a ST but when would it ever be?
Some have said it should have been done years ago which with hindsight it might have been.
I personally don't see why a ST should antagonise any current or future board. That is about how the Trust presents itself and go about achieving it's aims, whatever they may be.
On the FF, there is a framework in place to elect the FF members. I designed it. The decision was made by the Club at the time not to go to election. That can be debated (on another thread please) but that is not the fault of the FF members.
I think the FF is a great concept (well I would wouldn't I, I bloody thought of it) and I think the guys are doing a good job especially so soon since forming and given the circumstances. Doesn't mean I don't think there aren't things they couldn't have done differently but that is another thread.
This is not about FF v ST. I don't see any reason why both can't exist. In an ideal world both will continue, both will be elected and both will work closely together.
In the same way I don't see any reason to close Bromley Addicks because the FF or Greenwich and Bexley CASC exists.
Anyway great to read so much interest and lots of ideas. All I ask is that people translate that interest into action. That action might be joining up and getting friends to sign up as well or it could be joining the Trust board/steering group or offering specialist skills.
Just do something other than talking/moaning on message boards.
As a matter of interest then, Henry, do you think the club should have any say in who stands or is elected as a member of the fans' forum (beyond, say, requiring them to be paying season-ticket holders)?
[cite]Posted By: Airman Brown[/cite]As a matter of interest then, Henry, do you think the club should have any say in who stands or is elected as a member of the fans' forum (beyond, say, requiring them to be paying season-ticket holders)?
Can't see the relevance of this on a thread about a Supporters' Trust
From Henry Irving: "Good ideas about the OS and the SLP M2, please take the first post on this thread and send to them and let us all know what response you get."
Just spoken with Matt Wright, he said he had seen the request from Craig but Tom (who looks after the OS) is on holiday. (Now I know why some links are not working!)
Matt is requesting guidance from the Board regarding how or what they would allow in terms of publicity and support. I have asked for an article on OS, inclusion in email bulletins and a list of local press reporters.
Matt says there could be some 'issues' with helping us so is awaiting a reply. In any event he is happy to give us the list of local contacts.
As to when we can expect a reply from the Board . . . he is not sure as he says (for some reason I can't quite fathom) they are very busy at the moment! But I am emailing him with my details as a contact.
On a practical level, does anyone have any thoughts on a draft press release?
[cite]Posted By: Airman Brown[/cite]As a matter of interest then, Henry, do you think the club should have any say in who stands or is elected as a member of the fans' forum (beyond, say, requiring them to be paying season-ticket holders)?
Can't see the relevance of this on a thread about a Supporters' Trust
I guess the relevance COULD be that if the Club desires control of who represents the fans on the forum then in theory it might try to ask the same of the Supporters Trust (if it happens).
Comments
To my mind the Trust will always be an "elite". It'll always be a subset of all Charlton supporters, so giving it power over the Forum is, by definition, reducing the extent to which the Forum represents non-Trust members (e.g. the vast majority of fans).
I don't know anybody that thinks having layers and layers of committees in government is a great idea, but this proposal seems to be begging to add a new layer to our supporters representation. I can't see a single upside to it.
I actually think rather than a trust being "elitist" it would be more inclusive as it would embrace all fans and each would be equal members.
The FF has to concern itself with a lot of relatively mundane stuff, but which still matters to people. So we need it. But we need the Trust too to take care of the heavy stuff.
The Trust needs to be organised so that it is democratic, people running it are accountable, and nobody disappears up their own asses. But we ought to be capable of setting up such a structure, especially when there is so much support and examples from other clubs.
That's an assumption on your part. There's no framework in place to elect the fans' forum members, the club gives itself the right to vet them and in the past, to my knowledge, it has prevented people it had issues with standing for election as director (not me!).
The club really doesn't like organising elections or what might come out of them, which is why it was usually so tardy re-electing the supporters' director and several times asked the incumbent if they would stay on instead.
I accept the point that you wouldn't want to exclude people who weren't members of the trust from representation, but I find the notion that what exists is more representative than people chosen (elected) through the trust a bit quaint.
In fact, organisations whose officers ARE accountable to their members, like Maidstone CASC, were recently told that in future they would liaise with the club through fans' forum members who haven't been elected. That's because it suits the club; it has nothing to do with due process.
In fairness, it's not a conspiracy either, it's just a mess. But with the club having removed the legal basis on which they were entitled to manage the representation, through membership of the board, I see no reason why the club should be involved in deciding who speaks for fans at all. Nobody would have thought they should decide the officers of the supporters' club 20 years ago, would they?
Some should remember that this club once banned its away travel branch (Valley Away)-------we was in the third level of footie at the time. We are a long way from the dark days of tha but the last few weeks remind me of how bad comunications/relations once were.As for the club deciding who they would(or not) have on the FF or as a Fans Diretor thats just bollox----i dont remeber having a criminal records check before they cashed my cheque re buying shares !
As I understand it, at its best, a Supporters Trust can have some real clout, because if it owns a stake in the club, then the club does have certain obligations to it. However, I don't know what level of investment the Trust would need to be able to make in order to achieve that kind of stake. It's certainly not something we would be able to do overnight, particularly in the current financial climate, but I think it's worth having the trust in place in preparation for things getting even worse than they are now. Having said that, while I think having a stake in the club is an important aim for a Supporters Trust, we'd need to be careful that we don't overstate what we can achieve in the short term.
Financially i may be able to help in the future towards it but to me the word TRUST is the big issue here and it will require someone of real TRUST to be in charge of the ST.
For the ST to have any real credibilty i think it's chairperson would have to be a well respected figure in the charlton community that was known to more than just a few fans.
Forgive my rudeness but i think AFKA (if his personal situation allows him) would be the ideal candidate for this position cos i believe already he has the respect of a good number of fans and most of the charlton board ... so vote AFKA!!
My concern is that we find the right people to do the job.
At the end of the day, the FF has been set up by the Board to sort fan customer service issues that it no longer has the staff to handle and having read every word of the minutes, they are doing an ok job of that (IMO). Until the Club can afford its own employees, they obviously have a valuable role.
The ST however should be a completely different organisation which hopefully ensures fans representation, interests and views for the longterm success and viability of the club - and the key points are that it is set up by the fans and a completely different skill set and experience is required.
See: http://www.supporters-direct.org/page.asp?p=1988
To that end, I would suggest that it is in our interests to not only decide the aims of the ST but also agree the criteria for choosing its 'officers'.
We have roughly 2 weeks until the first meeting on the 4th so I would also suggest we start thinking about who we know that has the professional expertise and experience to run an organisation like this on our behalf (I am sure you 'movers and shakers' are already so please excuse me . . sucking eggs and all that).
With the high amount of responsiblity involved in this, let's not fall into the trap of voting in whoever has an opinion and the time to stand up to spout it (don't get me wrong, I am not having a go at anyone). We need fans that are experienced in accountancy, the law, marketing, public relations, entrepreneurs etc. Our fan base does include these people, we just need to advertise what we need and identify them.
I know this won't be easy, not least because professionals will find it hard to deal with the public (they normally deal with fellow business people who have an understanding of what they are talking about) so pursuasion will be needed and suitable caveats extended.
For a start, let's grasp the bull by the horns. How about talking to the club about an article on the OS, the email bulletins and talking to the SLP etc. to advertise the meeting?
If we don't extend the net as far as possible, I'm concerned we won't have much to choose from! (no offence to fellow participants)
Have already e-mailed the club to see if we can have an article on the o/s but received no response - I think maybe they would consider it Inappropriate for the O/S to report this. I did however manage to infiltrate the “your views” section !
SLP is a good idea – I’ll try and find an e-mail address and see what they think of it.
"At the end of the day, the FF has been set up by the Board to sort fan customer service issues that it no longer has the staff to handle"
However this shouldn't be a debate about the FF. This is about starting the process of setting up a Supporters' Trust.
I think there is a danger of jumping too far ahead. We've not had the initial meeting yet. If it happens it will be a long term project and all the issue about who and what can be discussed and voted on. People with the right abilities will come forward if they feel it is right for them.
Good ideas about the OS and the SLP M2, please take the first post on this thread and send to them and let us all know what response you get.
There is no harm in putting a general feeler out but in terms of recruitment, advertising and promoting the trust (or even promoting the idea) should be properly campaigned out for maximum effectiveness.
Just my tuppence worth.
vote afka.
I also think we need to remember that there are a whole load of Charlton fans outside Charlton Life. Don't want to exclude them or give those few people who have a downer on CL an excuse to dismiss the whole Trust idea because someone has suggested AFKA.
This isn't an CL thing. It's on all the other boards, thanks to SE9 and others.
The opportunity is there for fans to get involved now or in the future when they can see how it pans out.
Not necessarily disagreing with what you are saying but I think it's only fair that you tell people you are a member of the Fans Forum just in case they weren't aware of that.
My concern really is of the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" variety, and the current group strike me as doing all the right stuff.
Some have said it should have been done years ago which with hindsight it might have been.
I personally don't see why a ST should antagonise any current or future board. That is about how the Trust presents itself and go about achieving it's aims, whatever they may be.
On the FF, there is a framework in place to elect the FF members. I designed it. The decision was made by the Club at the time not to go to election. That can be debated (on another thread please) but that is not the fault of the FF members.
I think the FF is a great concept (well I would wouldn't I, I bloody thought of it) and I think the guys are doing a good job especially so soon since forming and given the circumstances. Doesn't mean I don't think there aren't things they couldn't have done differently but that is another thread.
This is not about FF v ST. I don't see any reason why both can't exist. In an ideal world both will continue, both will be elected and both will work closely together.
In the same way I don't see any reason to close Bromley Addicks because the FF or Greenwich and Bexley CASC exists.
Anyway great to read so much interest and lots of ideas. All I ask is that people translate that interest into action. That action might be joining up and getting friends to sign up as well or it could be joining the Trust board/steering group or offering specialist skills.
Just do something other than talking/moaning on message boards.
Can't see the relevance of this on a thread about a Supporters' Trust
Just spoken with Matt Wright, he said he had seen the request from Craig but Tom (who looks after the OS) is on holiday. (Now I know why some links are not working!)
Matt is requesting guidance from the Board regarding how or what they would allow in terms of publicity and support. I have asked for an article on OS, inclusion in email bulletins and a list of local press reporters.
Matt says there could be some 'issues' with helping us so is awaiting a reply. In any event he is happy to give us the list of local contacts.
As to when we can expect a reply from the Board . . . he is not sure as he says (for some reason I can't quite fathom) they are very busy at the moment! But I am emailing him with my details as a contact.
On a practical level, does anyone have any thoughts on a draft press release?
I will keep you updated.
I don't there is a need for a press release at the moment. Matt will be able to build an article from this thread (he is a member on here).
Otherwise I would suggest the post that SE9Addick posted asking if it was OK to go up on the Your Views part of the OS.
The key point, IMHO, are that 4th August is an initial meeting to find out more about the idea.
I guess the relevance COULD be that if the Club desires control of who represents the fans on the forum then in theory it might try to ask the same of the Supporters Trust (if it happens).