Good input M2, and i agree fully with your earlier point about finding the right people.
I personally think all that is needed for now on the club behalf would be a brief mention on the website and a snippet in the bulletin, advertising the fact that an INDEPENDENT Charlton Athletic Supporters Trust is currently being muted amongst some supporters, and that a member of Supporters Direct will be explaining how the process can work etc to those who may be interested in getting involved, learning more about the structure, process etc. Note, this is primarily a meeting to greater understand the trust concept, exchange preliminary views.......etc
No obligation for the club to do that whatsoever, however it would certainly appear ill-form if they didn't and i would be very surprised if that was the case.
[cite]Posted By: Airman Brown[/cite]As a matter of interest then, Henry, do you think the club should have any say in who stands or is elected as a member of the fans' forum (beyond, say, requiring them to be paying season-ticket holders)?
Can't see the relevance of this on a thread about a Supporters' Trust
I think it is relevant to the scope of the Supporters' Trust (some proposals have suggested varying amounts of responsibility, for the ST in appointing the FF)
[cite]Posted By: LenGlover[/cite]
I guess the relevance COULD be that if the Club desires control of who represents the fans on the forum then in theory it might try to ask the same of the Supporters Trust (if it happens).
The Fans Forum is a club initiative, that was clear to everyone from the outset. This, from what i can see, is completely different to that.
When I wrote the paper on the FF I set out the guidelines for who could put themselves forward. If I could find it I would put it all up on here but it may well be on the OS anyway.
From memory people had have football related convictions or have anything that might bring the club into disrepute were barred. Other than that I don't think there was anything. And please let's not get into a debate about what constitues "disrepute". That is the FF not the ST.
And before it gets taken as gospel McLovin no one from the trust has suggested that the ST appoint the FF mainly as there is no ST yet and it has no agreed aims. What one person says on here does not mean it is going to happen or make a detailed explanation of why it isn't the case necessary IMHO.
Can we just wait until the meeting on 4th August and then start the process of drawing up a constitution, aims and objectives, steering committee, etc, etc
At the moment we are like a builder arguing about the colour of the bathroom tiles before the house even has planning permission
Received the press contact list from Matt Wright. I will send off the text below tomorrow PM unless I get a negative consensus of opinion by midday tomorrow.
"Your club needs YOU!
Despite Charlton Athletics’ relegation to the third tier of English football and current moves to buy the club, over 9,000 supporters have already purchased season tickets and now many of Charlton’s loyal fans have called a meeting to discuss the formation of an independent Supporters Trust to help safeguard the future of the club.
A member of ‘Supporters Direct,’ an organisation specifically set up to help football fans form Supporters Trusts, will be attending to explain how the process has worked successfully with other clubs and to advise regarding the structure etc. to those who may be interested in getting involved. The meeting has therefore primarily been called to gain a greater understanding of the independent Trust concept for fans, the options available and to exchange preliminary views.
In previous dark times, Charlton fans formed the Valley Party and successfully helped rejuvenate the fortunes of the club. The fans are now calling for all fellow supporters who are interested in helping their club at this critical time to attend the meeting on August 4th 7pm at Charlton Conservative Club."
[cite]Posted By: m2[/cite]Re: Publicising ST meeting Aug 4th
Received the press contact list from Matt Wright. I will send off the text below tomorrow PM unless I get a negative consensus of opinion by midday tomorrow.
"Your club needs YOU!
Despite Charlton Athletics’ relegation to the third tier of English football and current moves to buy the club, over 9,000 supporters have already purchased season tickets and now many of Charlton’s loyal fans have called a meeting to discuss the formation of an independent Supporters Trust to help safeguard the future of the club.
A member of ‘Supporters Direct,’ an organisation specifically set up to help football fans form Supporters Trusts, will be attending to explain how the process has worked successfully with other clubs and to advise regarding the structure etc. to those who may be interested in getting involved. The meeting has therefore primarily been called to gain a greater understanding of the independent Trust concept for fans, the options available and to exchange preliminary views.
In previous dark times, Charlton fans formed the Valley Party and successfully helped rejuvenate the fortunes of the club. The fans are now calling for all fellow supporters who are interested in helping their club at this critical time to attend the meeting on August 4th 7pm at Charlton Conservative Club."
Sounds good. I hope to be at the meeting provided I am in the UK.
If it is decided that the ST should build up a block of shares then I have 375 that I would be happy to donate (not that they are worth much anyway!). If I can do anything else from sunny Sydney then I will. I guess that if there are new owners then they have to offer all shareholders whatever they are offering to the major shareholders and I think I'm right in saying that if they get 90% of shares they can compulsorily purchase the remainder (or is it 75%?) Anyhow, a Supporters Trust has to be a good idea as it will be truly independent of the club. Good luck on the 4th
[cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]
And before it gets taken as gospel McLovin no one from the trust has suggested that the ST appoint the FF mainly as there is no ST yet and it has no agreed aims. What one person says on here does not mean it is going to happen or make a detailed explanation of why it isn't the case necessary IMHO.
I think you've misunderstood - prospective Trust members have made suggestions/propsals and we've debated them right here. No need to be defensive, is there? All I was attempting to do was query - on an open thread in an open forum - what <some stated> was their vision for the Trust, in order to ascertain whether it was something that I felt was in the interest of the club, or in the interest of individuals and, by extension, something I'd be interested in supporting, or not.
For the record, those who have attempted to address the concerns that I raised, rather than attempting infantile point-scoring, have addressed the points and made some excellent suggestions (that turned my opinion around) and have given - I think at least - the Trust a bit more of a framework, or at least a basis on which to agree its scope and relationship with the FF.
Sorry if you feel I've hijacked your thread and initiative, by trying to understand where others are coming from.
[cite]Posted By: lancashire lad[/cite]Rather late in the day but I have at last read this thread.
The idea of a Trust had my full support, I can't attend on 4th as I'm off into hospital on 3rd.
If long distance help is of any use then mine is available as being retired I do have some spare time.
Very best of luck, I think we need all people, with all skills, in any place.
Nice to meet alot of diferent people today, I know alot weren't CL regualrs and have just joined the site to find out the latest re the ST. I'm almost certainly going to go down to Bartrams on Tuesday and talk to the people down there as I think those are the people we need to target to get this off the ground.
My reading of the accounts is that 21.79% of the shares are held by 'others' than those named in the accounts.
Parking the bonds/loans aspect that percentage is greater than Whitehand and Chappells combined holding and only a couple of % points behind Murray at 24.73%.
[cite]Posted By: Imissthepeanutman[/cite]My reading of the accounts is that 21.79% of the shares are held by 'others' than those named in the accounts.
Parking the bonds/loans aspect that percentage is greater than Whitehand and Chappells combined holding and only a couple of % points behind Murray at 24.73%.
Some great ideas being posted here and something positive at last in us the fans actually doing something.
My only concern is if the PLC don't want to know - then we are hitting our heads against a brick wall.
To be really successful the ST needs to have in mind a capital project, like purchasing the pitch, rather than being seen as a revenue stream for things such as player sponsorship.
[cite]Posted By: Addickted[/cite]Some great ideas being posted here and something positive at last in us the fans actually doing something.
My only concern is if the PLC don't want to know - then we are hitting our heads against a brick wall.
To be really successful the ST needs to have in mind a capital project, like purchasing the pitch, rather than being seen as a revenue stream for things such as player sponsorship.
How about purchasing an area of the covered end? We effectively rent the seats each season through season tickets so would it be possible to purchase a single block and holders of seats in that block would be effectively leasing their seats each season from the trust each year (for same price etc). Would need to find out cost of that and details and not sure if it would be viable but if a trust owned such and area of the ground and land it was over then it would make it awkward for the ground to be sold without the consent of the trust who would own part of it?
Used yesterday as a chance to go and speak to lots of people about the ST who perhaps don't look on message boards, Facebook etc so wouldn't have much exposure to this idea.
1/3 of people I spoke to thought it was a really good idea and would be interested in going to the meeting etc
1/3 were completely not intrested in it and thought we should just leave everything to Richard Murray etc.
1/3 thought it was a good idea in principle but want to wait and see how it goes before comitting themselves
One bloke said he had a few shares that he would be willing to donate (is it "donate by proxy" does anyone know the correct term so I don't go around saying the wrong thing?).
Another thing I found out yesterday is that for this to be successfull we need to have someone experienced at the helm. I don't mid doing lots of ground work (especially as it involves going to lots of pubs!!) but I don't think I want to be too visible in the structure as having a 24 year old associated may make it look like a bunch of kids who don't know what they're doing. One bloke actually said pretty much that to my face which I think is fair enough and is probably a representation of how alot of supporters would feel.
Ipswich would be a good chance to speak to some more supporters. Is anyone up for going around and canvassing support ? It would be our only chance to do so before the 4th and yesterday showed that there is alot of potential support out there for this but lots dont look at CL so us speaking to them directly is the only chance we've got of raising awarness.
Nice to meet Ben in the Old Red Lion yesterday and thanks to my brother for going round the pub's/bars and basically being my partner in crime (almost literally after the Euston incident with the Celtic supporters!).
Good to meet you Craig, dodgy shirt but we shall overlook that : - )
Well done for going around and asking people. That takes some guts to just go up and ask strangers. Do you work in sales? : - )
Looking forward to getting your feedback from the other trusts.
I agree that it would be good to have a wide spectrum of fans involved including by age (I'm trying to avoid the experience and youth cliché) but any Trust needs people with enthusiasm and ideas so that makes people like you a perfect candidates IMHO. Time for a new generation to come along.
Yes, it is Proxy. Shareholders could proxy their voting rights to the Trust
As Peanutman says there is potentially over one fifth of the club available, at least.
Of course the shareholding issue is just a possibility. It's not been agreed. The sheet of paper is still blank
[cite]Posted By: se9addick[/cite]
One bloke said he had a few shares that he would be willing to donate (is it "donate by proxy" does anyone know the correct term so I don't go around saying the wrong thing?).....
If someone donates their shares they are transferring ownership of the shares (this can be done without money changing hands, i.e. for "nil consideration") - once done the shares would belong to the ST and the original owner would have no entitlement relating to the shares whatsoever (i.e. if by some miracle the shares came to be worth something again, the original holder would have no entitlement to that value as the shares would be the property of the ST, to do with as it wishes). Once the ST is established as a legal entity, such a transfer should be easy to do in that all that is normally required is for the currrent holder to complete a Stock Transfer Form (available from the Registrar, Capita Registrars [a form can be downloaded from their website]) and send it and the share certificate to the Registrar.
Alternatively, without giving up ownership, a current shareholder can appoint the ST as his/her "proxy" for purposes of voting on all resolutions to shareholders. Not sure what documentation would be required for this but this would enable the ST to exercise the voting power in respect of the shares, for as long as the authority is granted, but does not transfer ownership of the shares to the ST. In this case, the current shareholder would not be not foregoing the benefit if the shares ever regained any value.
Thanks PM, if the ST decides to go down the road of share representation, then the latter option you list "voting proxy", is definately the route i believe it should be taking, particularly for a fledgling, unproven body. Would almost certainly receive a much better response i believe, and certainly would be a viable, more attractive option to those with larger shareholdings.
[cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]Thanks PM, if the ST decides to go down the road of share representation, then the latter option you list "voting proxy", is definately the route i believe it should be taking, particularly for a fledgling, unproven body. Would almost certainly receive a much better response i believe, and certainly would be a viable, more attractive option to those with larger shareholdings.
Personally I agree and would be happy to proxy my massive 200 shares if that is the direction the ST takes.
I think that we might need to ask Rock Spectacle to get some more chairs out for the 4th at this rate.
Will decide more after hearing what's said at the meeting on the 4th, however my 400 shares can be had if that is the route to go down. I wrote off that money many many years ago.
[cite]Posted By: Addickted[/cite]Some great ideas being posted here and something positive at last in us the fans actually doing something.
My only concern is if the PLC don't want to know - then we are hitting our heads against a brick wall.
To be really successful the ST needs to have in mind a capital project, like purchasing the pitch, rather than being seen as a revenue stream for things such as player sponsorship.
How about purchasing an area of the covered end? We effectively rent the seats each season through season tickets so would it be possible to purchase a single block and holders of seats in that block would be effectively leasing their seats each season from the trust each year (for same price etc). Would need to find out cost of that and details and not sure if it would be viable but if a trust owned such and area of the ground and land it was over then it would make it awkward for the ground to be sold without the consent of the trust who would own part of it?
I believe The Covered End has a mortgage on it which might well cause legal problems and difficulties.
Hence the pitch suggestion which is also a symbol for the fans as that is where the team we love (God knows why!) plays.
Was thinking of putting out some info on this tonight - maybe little leaflets (as long as the printer at work doesnt pack up !!) -
How does this sound...
CHARLTON ATHLETIC SUPORTERS TRUST
A supporters trust is an independent, legal entity formed to give supporters a greater say in their club. It is different from the Fans Forum (for example) due to it’s legal status. It is our hope that the Supporters Trust will work in conjunction with the Fans Forum by giving it some bite.
Due to the democratic nature of the trust the agenda will be set by the members, no one person can unduly influence the trust. The Trust will be what WE make it. The more people who take part to help make our club the force it once was, both on and off the field, the more robust the trust will be.
It will not be a quick or easy solution to all the Club's problems but it might be give the fans more influence and control. This is an initial meeting to discuss the setting up of the Trust with members of Supporters Direct who can answer our questions and give examples of how other Trusts have done things previously.
If you are curious at all please come down to the meeting, join the Facebook group and read up on the way a trust functions http://www.supporters-direct.org/page.asp?p=2074 - then decide how you want your trust to look and act.
04/08/09 7PM CHARLTON CONSERVATIVE CLUB (51 Charlton Church Lane, SE7 7AE)
This was all I could fit in - do you think this makes all the points ? Is there anything vital that I've left out ?
Comments
I personally think all that is needed for now on the club behalf would be a brief mention on the website and a snippet in the bulletin, advertising the fact that an INDEPENDENT Charlton Athletic Supporters Trust is currently being muted amongst some supporters, and that a member of Supporters Direct will be explaining how the process can work etc to those who may be interested in getting involved, learning more about the structure, process etc. Note, this is primarily a meeting to greater understand the trust concept, exchange preliminary views.......etc
No obligation for the club to do that whatsoever, however it would certainly appear ill-form if they didn't and i would be very surprised if that was the case.
The Fans Forum is a club initiative, that was clear to everyone from the outset. This, from what i can see, is completely different to that.
When I wrote the paper on the FF I set out the guidelines for who could put themselves forward. If I could find it I would put it all up on here but it may well be on the OS anyway.
From memory people had have football related convictions or have anything that might bring the club into disrepute were barred. Other than that I don't think there was anything. And please let's not get into a debate about what constitues "disrepute". That is the FF not the ST.
And before it gets taken as gospel McLovin no one from the trust has suggested that the ST appoint the FF mainly as there is no ST yet and it has no agreed aims. What one person says on here does not mean it is going to happen or make a detailed explanation of why it isn't the case necessary IMHO.
Can we just wait until the meeting on 4th August and then start the process of drawing up a constitution, aims and objectives, steering committee, etc, etc
At the moment we are like a builder arguing about the colour of the bathroom tiles before the house even has planning permission
Received the press contact list from Matt Wright. I will send off the text below tomorrow PM unless I get a negative consensus of opinion by midday tomorrow.
"Your club needs YOU!
Despite Charlton Athletics’ relegation to the third tier of English football and current moves to buy the club, over 9,000 supporters have already purchased season tickets and now many of Charlton’s loyal fans have called a meeting to discuss the formation of an independent Supporters Trust to help safeguard the future of the club.
A member of ‘Supporters Direct,’ an organisation specifically set up to help football fans form Supporters Trusts, will be attending to explain how the process has worked successfully with other clubs and to advise regarding the structure etc. to those who may be interested in getting involved. The meeting has therefore primarily been called to gain a greater understanding of the independent Trust concept for fans, the options available and to exchange preliminary views.
In previous dark times, Charlton fans formed the Valley Party and successfully helped rejuvenate the fortunes of the club. The fans are now calling for all fellow supporters who are interested in helping their club at this critical time to attend the meeting on August 4th 7pm at Charlton Conservative Club."
Sounds good. I hope to be at the meeting provided I am in the UK.
Anyhow, a Supporters Trust has to be a good idea as it will be truly independent of the club.
Good luck on the 4th
I think you've misunderstood - prospective Trust members have made suggestions/propsals and we've debated them right here. No need to be defensive, is there? All I was attempting to do was query - on an open thread in an open forum - what <some stated> was their vision for the Trust, in order to ascertain whether it was something that I felt was in the interest of the club, or in the interest of individuals and, by extension, something I'd be interested in supporting, or not.
For the record, those who have attempted to address the concerns that I raised, rather than attempting infantile point-scoring, have addressed the points and made some excellent suggestions (that turned my opinion around) and have given - I think at least - the Trust a bit more of a framework, or at least a basis on which to agree its scope and relationship with the FF.
Sorry if you feel I've hijacked your thread and initiative, by trying to understand where others are coming from.
The idea of a Trust had my full support, I can't attend on 4th as I'm off into hospital on 3rd.
If long distance help is of any use then mine is available as being retired I do have some spare time.
Hope all goes well LL
http://www.kentsportsnews.com/News-(1)/Football/Charlton/July-2009/Your-club-needs-YOU!.aspx
Very best of luck, I think we need all people, with all skills, in any place.
Nice to meet alot of diferent people today, I know alot weren't CL regualrs and have just joined the site to find out the latest re the ST. I'm almost certainly going to go down to Bartrams on Tuesday and talk to the people down there as I think those are the people we need to target to get this off the ground.
Parking the bonds/loans aspect that percentage is greater than Whitehand and Chappells combined holding and only a couple of % points behind Murray at 24.73%.
So you never know....................
Thanks C. and good to see you back on here.
My only concern is if the PLC don't want to know - then we are hitting our heads against a brick wall.
To be really successful the ST needs to have in mind a capital project, like purchasing the pitch, rather than being seen as a revenue stream for things such as player sponsorship.
How about purchasing an area of the covered end? We effectively rent the seats each season through season tickets so would it be possible to purchase a single block and holders of seats in that block would be effectively leasing their seats each season from the trust each year (for same price etc). Would need to find out cost of that and details and not sure if it would be viable but if a trust owned such and area of the ground and land it was over then it would make it awkward for the ground to be sold without the consent of the trust who would own part of it?
1/3 of people I spoke to thought it was a really good idea and would be interested in going to the meeting etc
1/3 were completely not intrested in it and thought we should just leave everything to Richard Murray etc.
1/3 thought it was a good idea in principle but want to wait and see how it goes before comitting themselves
One bloke said he had a few shares that he would be willing to donate (is it "donate by proxy" does anyone know the correct term so I don't go around saying the wrong thing?).
Another thing I found out yesterday is that for this to be successfull we need to have someone experienced at the helm. I don't mid doing lots of ground work (especially as it involves going to lots of pubs!!) but I don't think I want to be too visible in the structure as having a 24 year old associated may make it look like a bunch of kids who don't know what they're doing. One bloke actually said pretty much that to my face which I think is fair enough and is probably a representation of how alot of supporters would feel.
Ipswich would be a good chance to speak to some more supporters. Is anyone up for going around and canvassing support ? It would be our only chance to do so before the 4th and yesterday showed that there is alot of potential support out there for this but lots dont look at CL so us speaking to them directly is the only chance we've got of raising awarness.
Nice to meet Ben in the Old Red Lion yesterday and thanks to my brother for going round the pub's/bars and basically being my partner in crime (almost literally after the Euston incident with the Celtic supporters!).
Well done for going around and asking people. That takes some guts to just go up and ask strangers. Do you work in sales? : - )
Looking forward to getting your feedback from the other trusts.
I agree that it would be good to have a wide spectrum of fans involved including by age (I'm trying to avoid the experience and youth cliché) but any Trust needs people with enthusiasm and ideas so that makes people like you a perfect candidates IMHO. Time for a new generation to come along.
Yes, it is Proxy. Shareholders could proxy their voting rights to the Trust
As Peanutman says there is potentially over one fifth of the club available, at least.
Of course the shareholding issue is just a possibility. It's not been agreed. The sheet of paper is still blank
If someone donates their shares they are transferring ownership of the shares (this can be done without money changing hands, i.e. for "nil consideration") - once done the shares would belong to the ST and the original owner would have no entitlement relating to the shares whatsoever (i.e. if by some miracle the shares came to be worth something again, the original holder would have no entitlement to that value as the shares would be the property of the ST, to do with as it wishes). Once the ST is established as a legal entity, such a transfer should be easy to do in that all that is normally required is for the currrent holder to complete a Stock Transfer Form (available from the Registrar, Capita Registrars [a form can be downloaded from their website]) and send it and the share certificate to the Registrar.
Alternatively, without giving up ownership, a current shareholder can appoint the ST as his/her "proxy" for purposes of voting on all resolutions to shareholders. Not sure what documentation would be required for this but this would enable the ST to exercise the voting power in respect of the shares, for as long as the authority is granted, but does not transfer ownership of the shares to the ST. In this case, the current shareholder would not be not foregoing the benefit if the shares ever regained any value.
Personally I agree and would be happy to proxy my massive 200 shares if that is the direction the ST takes.
I think that we might need to ask Rock Spectacle to get some more chairs out for the 4th at this rate.
Shame some of the Board didn't......:o)
I believe The Covered End has a mortgage on it which might well cause legal problems and difficulties.
Hence the pitch suggestion which is also a symbol for the fans as that is where the team we love (God knows why!) plays.
Nice one, over 500 members on the Facebook group. Might try and talk to some people tonight (Bartrams maybe my best bet?).
That's if anyone shows up for tonights game !!
How does this sound...
CHARLTON ATHLETIC SUPORTERS TRUST
A supporters trust is an independent, legal entity formed to give supporters a greater say in their club. It is different from the Fans Forum (for example) due to it’s legal status. It is our hope that the Supporters Trust will work in conjunction with the Fans Forum by giving it some bite.
Due to the democratic nature of the trust the agenda will be set by the members, no one person can unduly influence the trust. The Trust will be what WE make it. The more people who take part to help make our club the force it once was, both on and off the field, the more robust the trust will be.
It will not be a quick or easy solution to all the Club's problems but it might be give the fans more influence and control. This is an initial meeting to discuss the setting up of the Trust with members of Supporters Direct who can answer our questions and give examples of how other Trusts have done things previously.
If you are curious at all please come down to the meeting, join the Facebook group and read up on the way a trust functions http://www.supporters-direct.org/page.asp?p=2074 - then decide how you want your trust to look and act.
04/08/09 7PM CHARLTON CONSERVATIVE CLUB (51 Charlton Church Lane, SE7 7AE)
This was all I could fit in - do you think this makes all the points ? Is there anything vital that I've left out ?