[cite]Posted By: Floyd Montana[/cite]Well now thats clear, thanks.
Where are your moral limits?
What would you do to win the bit of silver?
Would you bribe an official? Or would that just be too immoral?
Why dont we kidnap the family of the best opposition players and force them to throw the game? No? too much of a leap from employng players without morals?
Are we arguing about where the limit is or are there no limits?
Just curious (in case this message comes acroos the wrong way!)
Are you actually being serious here? We're talking about a player who cheated on his wife and you're comparing that to bribing officials and kidnapping people!!
We know Terry is a scumbag off the field, but he's a brilliant professional on it, so he'll keep his place in the side because there is no one better. As others have said, who would replace him, Rooney, Gerrard, Rio, Lampard? All have had their own problems so if we took your standpoint we probably wouldn't have a team!
I repeat I am not bothered about the infidelity. It is a moral issue I am trying to discuss, and finding the boundary between what people think is acceptable - the arrogant disregard for less fortunate people - and the extreme I mention. Clearly if you think the former is fine then the latter will be seen as ott and too extreme to be taken seriously
Personally I couldnt care less who replaces him, just as long as someone does. My standpoint, as ever largely ignorant, would prevent Gerrard and Terry from representing our country. If thats Ok with you
[cite]Posted By: Floyd Montana[/cite]I repeat I am not bothered about the infidelity.
It is a moral issue I am trying to discuss, and finding the boundary between what people think is acceptable - the arrogant disregard for less fortunate people - and the extreme I mention.
Clearly if you think the former is fine then the latter will be seen as ott and too extreme to be taken seriously
Personally I couldnt care less who replaces him, just as long as someone does. My standpoint, as ever largely ignorant, would prevent Gerrard and Terry from representing our country. If thats Ok with you
No one is condoning his off field behaviour. But with regards to the world cup, it's a football issue and he has to play.
I don't think you'll find many agreeing that we should drop every player with a past misdemeanor.
[cite]Posted By: Floyd Montana[/cite]IA
That darling Johnny was different from the rest
Maybe that is the silver bullet that the red tops have over him [winky thing]
I do agree with Henry on this, that the medias interest is first and foremost driven by their need to sell newspapers. Unfortunately for JT and for Capello, once the information is in the public domain or when (as the media will point out) it is common knowledge within football circles, it does impact his ability to captain his country effectively. Some will argue that it shouldn't, but it certainly does and for that reason and that reason alone Capello will have to make a very tough call. That decision will not be made on moral grounds, but if Capello suspects that enough of the players have lost the respect of JT to lead them, then he may have to act. This is why some are quite right in pointing out that there is a moral issue here (again I'm not saying there should be but for some there just is) as their own moral code will determine if they care about how JT's actions have impacted on their own lives and that of their team mates. Those players (not Ashley Cole obviously, but there may be some) may lose all respect for JT and therefore weaken his ability to lead effectively. Very tough call for Capello, but once his decision is made, he'll have to explain it to the whole squad and point out that they'll all have to accept it, adopt it and tow the party line, uniting under a common cause. A top class manager would use it to the teams advantage (aka Ferguson) and galvanise the players to shove one up the media by doing the biz whilst the media attempt (in the players minds) to destroy their quest for glory. This in the long run "may" work in the England's team favour ....................... and of course the media will somehow take the credit !! and be happy that their success will help sell a few more copies.
Or maybe Andy Parsons is right. It will be great with him as captain. He can say to any member of the team making a mistake, Do that again and I will shag your missus
Could be the incentive they need.
Anyway, lets win at all costs and to hell with what anyone else thinks of us
What's coming out in this weeks NOTW will have been the end.
Terry would have coughed as Capello wanted to know all and he's not so stupid as to think the rest of the tale wouldn't be splashed... maybe they've done a deal to try and get JT out of the way and let it blow over or maybe Capello really has just had enough.
[cite]Posted By: ISawLeaburnScore[/cite]What's coming out in this weeks NOTW will have been the end.
Terry would have coughed as Capello wanted to know all and he's not so stupid as to think the rest of the tale wouldn't be splashed... maybe they've done a deal to try and get JT out of the way and let it blow over or maybe Capello really has just had enough.
Apparently there's another Premiership footballer's wife he's been playing away with and they are trying to keep this one quiet - can't see it happening myself. Hope his wife leaves him - takes a huge chunk of his money and his career goes downhill. Never liked him as a person and its pretty clear he has dubious morals
[cite]Posted By: ISawLeaburnScore[/cite]What's coming out in this weeks NOTW will have been the end.
Terry would have coughed as Capello wanted to know all and he's not so stupid as to think the rest of the tale wouldn't be splashed... maybe they've done a deal to try and get JT out of the way and let it blow over or maybe Capello really has just had enough.
Apparently there's another Premiership footballer's wife he's been playing away with and they are trying to keep this one quiet - can't see it happening myself. Hope his wife leaves him - takes a huge chunk of his money and his career goes downhill. Never liked him as a person and its pretty clear he has dubious morals
ALLEGEDLY - it's Hilario's wife.
Another rumour doing the rounds is that he's been betting (and losing by all accounts) on premier league matches AND even on Chelsea matches. Both of which are illegal.
[cite]Posted By: dabos[/cite]If Steven Gerrard gets made captain I will
a) be bloody annoyed
b) find Fabio so I can punch him the face, a la Gerrard
Won't be Gerrard, he's a part-timer, played about 2 friendlies in Capello's rein because he's injury ravaged and hasn't got the balls to stand up to Rafa when he throws a strop about the schedule
To be honest I don't agree with confusing legal obligations to moral obligations in terms of his love life and his captaincy, but if the alleged money allegations are true then JT's lost it for me... that's my £80 EF+ sub he's making a cash profit on ;-)
Assuming the captain will be a player that is always in the starting XI it'll have to be Rooney.
Lets look at the others:
Lampard - previous cheating
Rio - same plus the drugs fiasco plus his form is patchy
Gerrard - assault case and usually injured for friendlies as ISLS says
Ashley Cole - ha ha ha ha
Who else plays regularly to be captain? Barry perhaps?
I know Rooney had the prostitute story but that was some years ago and it's fair to say he's over that.
I think Rooney should be captain as well. Assuming it has to be someone we're unlikely to ever drop, only Rooney comes into that category.
However, if we're not allowed to give the captaincy to someone who is a prat, that rules out most of the England team. Chris Powell for England captain.
[cite]Posted By: ISawLeaburnScore[/cite]What's coming out in this weeks NOTW will have been the end.
Terry would have coughed as Capello wanted to know all and he's not so stupid as to think the rest of the tale wouldn't be splashed... maybe they've done a deal to try and get JT out of the way and let it blow over or maybe Capello really has just had enough.
Apparently there's another Premiership footballer's wife he's been playing away with and they are trying to keep this one quiet - can't see it happening myself. Hope his wife leaves him - takes a huge chunk of his money and his career goes downhill. Never liked him as a person and its pretty clear he has dubious morals
And he can't take pressure penalties. Cry baby :-)
[cite]Posted By: Chris_from_Sidcup[/cite]Assuming the captain will be a player that is always in the starting XI it'll have to be Rooney.
Lets look at the others:
Lampard - previous cheating
Rio - same plus the drugs fiasco plus his form is patchy
Gerrard - assault case and usually injured for friendlies as ISLS says
Ashley Cole - ha ha ha ha
Who else plays regularly to be captain? Barry perhaps?
I know Rooney had the prostitute story but that was some years ago and it's fair to say he's over that.
I wonder if the current 'captaincy' of England is now tarnished beyond repair. As you say all likely candidates seem to have some sort of moral or legal issue, whether relevant to football or not. Rooney is probably the best bet but it may affect his game too much.
Sky Sports news were discussing the fact that captaincy isn't a big issue in Italy anyway, Capello went with our culture on the importance of it and may well just pick game by game in future.
It can't be Rooney, he's too young and too volatile.
Lampard would be my choice but is this weird... captained by JT at Chelsea yet the main man for England? Is JT out altogether or would the new captain be over him?
Gerrard is a part-timer and not fit or in form.
Ferdinand may well not be fit if he doesn't come through and play a decent run of games.
Barry would be a sound choice having captained Aston Villa but is he a "big" enough personality amongst the other senior pro's.
What makes me laugh is how this is being spun by the media as an issue over the England captaincy. They are only doing that so that they can keep the story in the papers every day and so serve up more titilation and gossip.
Spin or no spin, it is an issue over the England captaincy, as shown by what appears to be the decision to drop Terry as captain. That won't be a decision made purely based on media pressure.
[cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite] And how people are so quick to tar all players with the same brush when we all know that people shag around in all walks of life. What Terry did was wrong because he is a husband not because he was a footballer.
This however I agree with. This saga is leading to another round of hand wringing that all footballers are terrible people.
It's similar to how a young person stabs someone, and some start screaming that the 'youths' are all part of a broken generation that all go around stabbing grannies whilst swigging from vodka bottles. People are people, and generalisations need a far more nuanced approach than the sledgehammer assertions that are often made.
[cite]Posted By: Swisdom[/cite]Hope his wife leaves him - takes a huge chunk of his money and his career goes downhill.
Comments
Are you actually being serious here? We're talking about a player who cheated on his wife and you're comparing that to bribing officials and kidnapping people!!
We know Terry is a scumbag off the field, but he's a brilliant professional on it, so he'll keep his place in the side because there is no one better. As others have said, who would replace him, Rooney, Gerrard, Rio, Lampard? All have had their own problems so if we took your standpoint we probably wouldn't have a team!
It is a moral issue I am trying to discuss, and finding the boundary between what people think is acceptable - the arrogant disregard for less fortunate people - and the extreme I mention.
Clearly if you think the former is fine then the latter will be seen as ott and too extreme to be taken seriously
Personally I couldnt care less who replaces him, just as long as someone does. My standpoint, as ever largely ignorant, would prevent Gerrard and Terry from representing our country. If thats Ok with you
No one is condoning his off field behaviour. But with regards to the world cup, it's a football issue and he has to play.
I don't think you'll find many agreeing that we should drop every player with a past misdemeanor.
I do agree with Henry on this, that the medias interest is first and foremost driven by their need to sell newspapers. Unfortunately for JT and for Capello, once the information is in the public domain or when (as the media will point out) it is common knowledge within football circles, it does impact his ability to captain his country effectively. Some will argue that it shouldn't, but it certainly does and for that reason and that reason alone Capello will have to make a very tough call. That decision will not be made on moral grounds, but if Capello suspects that enough of the players have lost the respect of JT to lead them, then he may have to act. This is why some are quite right in pointing out that there is a moral issue here (again I'm not saying there should be but for some there just is) as their own moral code will determine if they care about how JT's actions have impacted on their own lives and that of their team mates. Those players (not Ashley Cole obviously, but there may be some) may lose all respect for JT and therefore weaken his ability to lead effectively. Very tough call for Capello, but once his decision is made, he'll have to explain it to the whole squad and point out that they'll all have to accept it, adopt it and tow the party line, uniting under a common cause. A top class manager would use it to the teams advantage (aka Ferguson) and galvanise the players to shove one up the media by doing the biz whilst the media attempt (in the players minds) to destroy their quest for glory. This in the long run "may" work in the England's team favour ....................... and of course the media will somehow take the credit !! and be happy that their success will help sell a few more copies.
It will be great with him as captain.
He can say to any member of the team making a mistake, Do that again and I will shag your missus
Could be the incentive they need.
Anyway, lets win at all costs and to hell with what anyone else thinks of us
Never ending
That will be the end of it then.
No of course not, still plenty of cheap thrills for the papers to print and the public to read so on and on it goes.
Terry would have coughed as Capello wanted to know all and he's not so stupid as to think the rest of the tale wouldn't be splashed... maybe they've done a deal to try and get JT out of the way and let it blow over or maybe Capello really has just had enough.
Apparently there's another Premiership footballer's wife he's been playing away with and they are trying to keep this one quiet - can't see it happening myself. Hope his wife leaves him - takes a huge chunk of his money and his career goes downhill. Never liked him as a person and its pretty clear he has dubious morals
a) be bloody annoyed
b) find Fabio so I can punch him the face, a la Gerrard
ALLEGEDLY gambling addiction and debts, personal loans from RA, subletting his subsidised personal box at Wembley for cash profit
ALLEGEDLY - it's Hilario's wife.
Another rumour doing the rounds is that he's been betting (and losing by all accounts) on premier league matches AND even on Chelsea matches. Both of which are illegal.
Won't be Gerrard, he's a part-timer, played about 2 friendlies in Capello's rein because he's injury ravaged and hasn't got the balls to stand up to Rafa when he throws a strop about the schedule
Lets look at the others:
Lampard - previous cheating
Rio - same plus the drugs fiasco plus his form is patchy
Gerrard - assault case and usually injured for friendlies as ISLS says
Ashley Cole - ha ha ha ha
Who else plays regularly to be captain? Barry perhaps?
I know Rooney had the prostitute story but that was some years ago and it's fair to say he's over that.
However, if we're not allowed to give the captaincy to someone who is a prat, that rules out most of the England team. Chris Powell for England captain.
And he can't take pressure penalties. Cry baby :-)
Lampard and Rooney seem the 2 candiates who have moved on from past demons.
I wonder if the current 'captaincy' of England is now tarnished beyond repair. As you say all likely candidates seem to have some sort of moral or legal issue, whether relevant to football or not. Rooney is probably the best bet but it may affect his game too much.
Sky Sports news were discussing the fact that captaincy isn't a big issue in Italy anyway, Capello went with our culture on the importance of it and may well just pick game by game in future.
Lampard would be my choice but is this weird... captained by JT at Chelsea yet the main man for England? Is JT out altogether or would the new captain be over him?
Gerrard is a part-timer and not fit or in form.
Ferdinand may well not be fit if he doesn't come through and play a decent run of games.
Barry would be a sound choice having captained Aston Villa but is he a "big" enough personality amongst the other senior pro's.
we're stuffed!
Spin or no spin, it is an issue over the England captaincy, as shown by what appears to be the decision to drop Terry as captain. That won't be a decision made purely based on media pressure.
This however I agree with. This saga is leading to another round of hand wringing that all footballers are terrible people.
It's similar to how a young person stabs someone, and some start screaming that the 'youths' are all part of a broken generation that all go around stabbing grannies whilst swigging from vodka bottles. People are people, and generalisations need a far more nuanced approach than the sledgehammer assertions that are often made.
Hopefully it doesn't go downhill till after June!