[cite]Posted By: Floyd Montana[/cite]You are not serious are you Leroy?
Ethiopia, Kenya Zimbabwe, all in the UN lowest HDI (Human Development Index) grouping were all in the top half of the last medals table.
Most of them beating Norway Switzerland and Denmark, all in the very top of development lists
Jamaica came 13th, Nigeria (the least developed country on the HDI list) beat Austria and South Africa - highly developed countries
i know which looks a more reasonable embodiment of the Olympic ideals
I'm not sure whether YOU'RE serious. You can't possibly believe that athletes from those countries are training on beaches and living in mud huts, can you? In fact, I'd argue that it's even more obscene that governments from those countries or the IOC itself funds athletes from Kenya, Ethiopia and Zimbabwe at all whilst 99.99% of their population lives in abject poverty.
I'm no fan of the Olympics (rampant commercialism, sponsorship by some of the least appropriate companies at a 'sporting' event (McDonalds, Coca-Cola etc), ridiculously sums of host countries' taxpayers money with no reward or lasting legacy etc etc) but saying that the winter olympics are 'elitist' is daft. The summer olympics are just as 'elitist'. In fact, every global sporting event is 'elitist' - the very definition of 'elitist' in fact.
Leroy - Dont see the relevance of your mud hut comments. It isnt something I even mentioned in my posts - though since you raised it, I have however seen images of long distance runners from for example Kenya, running on dirt tracks though, and I have spent time helping a Peruvian high jumper who is heading for the 2012 games.
Henry - Dont understand the logic that, if I have an opinion about the validity of the winter games being in any way olympic, it has to be a wind up. It wasnt intended to be
Winter Games
2,500 athletes from the 82 richest countries with miniscule participation from S America (Oddly one of the three participants from Peru is a friend) , Africa (I dont know any of the THREE competitors from the 47 countries in Africa) the Middle East or much of Asia,
seems a lot more elite than
The 2008 Olympic games
11,000 atheletes from 204 national olympic committees.(which is impressive given that I believe there are only 197 countries in the world!?)
[cite]Posted By: Floyd Montana[/cite]
Winter Games
2,500 athletes from the 82 richest countries with miniscule participation from S America (Oddly one of the three participants from Peru is a friend) , Africa (I dont know any of the THREE competitors from the 47 countries in Africa) the Middle East or much of Asia,
seems a lot more elite than
The 2008 Olympic games
11,000 atheletes from 204 national olympic committees.(which is impressive given that I believe there are only 197 countries in the world!?)
Could that not be down to the fact that in South America, the Middle East, Asia and Africa, you generally don't get such harsh winters, thus preventing people from these countries actually participating in them. I think I'm right in saying that the 'Snow Leopard' from Ghana was only competing because he was born in Glasgow and worked at the Milton Keynes Snowdome. If the climate isn't conducive to winter sports, of course it's going to be the richest countries who can afford the facilities to artificially replicate them.
It's like saying, "you don't get any competitors in the summer Olympics from Antarctica, so therefore it doesn't meet Olympic ideals."
[cite]Posted By: Floyd Montana[/cite]
Predominantly white, rich, European or European-descended competiord earning Olympic medals for minimum effort in events denied to the vast majority of the globe.
Tell that to the Cross Country Skiers - you would not get 50 meters double-poleing on a pair of cross Country skis before collapsing with exhaustion, let alone 50km...ridiculous know nothing statement!! I have nothing but respect for those athletes in the hardest, most physically demanding sport bar none. It makes a Marathon look like a walk in the park.
[cite]Posted By: Floyd Montana[/cite]Leroy - Dont see the relevance of your mud hut comments. It isnt something I even mentioned in my posts - though since you raised it, I have however seen images of long distance runners from for example Kenya, running on dirt tracks though, and I have spent time helping a Peruvian high jumper who is heading for the 2012 games.
Henry - Dont understand the logic that, if I have an opinion about the validity of the winter games being in any way olympic, it has to be a wind up. It wasnt intended to be
Winter Games
2,500 athletes from the 82 richest countries with miniscule participation from S America (Oddly one of the three participants from Peru is a friend) , Africa (I dont know any of the THREE competitors from the 47 countries in Africa) the Middle East or much of Asia,
seems a lot more elite than
The 2008 Olympic games
11,000 atheletes from 204 national olympic committees.(which is impressive given that I believe there are only 197 countries in the world!?)
How about the fact that the Winter Olympics reflect the nations where winter is the prevalent climate?? Have you tried doing the long jump or chucking the javelin about when it is -40 outside and there's 3 feet of snow on the ground? The WO reflect the fact that in many countries the only way to get around under your own steam is to slide either on ice (skating) or snow (skiing)........last time i looked training opportunities under those conditions don't really exist in Nigeria, Brazil, Egypt etc etc
Allez - that is my point, really. It shouldnt be olympic when only a few can participate, for whatever reason.
Oakster - I agree. Obviously not all the events involve hanging onto something hurtling down a fixed course. Personally I really enjoyed some of the events, such as the snowboard destruction derby. some are not IMHO worthy of Olympic gold medals however, and they are a greater percentage of the total than similar events i the proper olympics
Oakster = again, obviously, so why are they Olympic games when so many are unable to participate. Even in the UK we dont have a luge track do we? So make them winter games, without the IOC involvement
On a par with world series baseball - ridiculous
"The goal of the Olympic Movement is to contribute to building a peaceful and better world by educating youth through sport practiced without discrimination of any kind and in the Olympic spirit, which requires mutual understanding with a spirit of friendship, solidarity and fair play."
Henry...now now...are you on a wind up?
time to sit on the naughty step for being deliberately obtuse.
Your choice of football is a really poor one due to the fact that virtually every country has a F Federation and participates.
I am not saying every person should play , as you well know.
[cite]Posted By: Floyd Montana[/cite]Oakster = again, obviously, so why are they Olympic games when so many are unable to participate. Even in the UK we dont have a luge track do we? So make them winter games, without the IOC involvement
On a par with world series baseball - ridiculous
"The goal of the Olympic Movement is to contribute to building a peaceful and better world by educating youth through sport practiced without discrimination of any kind and in the Olympic spirit, which requires mutual understanding with a spirit of friendship, solidarity and fair play."
Who says they are unable to compete - if a Nigerian skier has the talent & drive, I am sure they can and would certainly be encouraged to make it. To me the Olympics is about finding the best athletes in each chosen discipline.......naturally the winter games will predominantly attract participants from the winter dominated countries.
Olympic ideals died out in the 1920's I suspect - it has been a political event in every way, summer & winter, since then.
There are plenty (if not a majority) of summer sports where climatic, cultural or political reasons exclude most of countries from seriously participating - does that mean the summer Olympics should be dismantled.
Er Oakster, see the participation details I have posted.
I think that answers your point.
you say its about finding the best athletes in each chosen discipline. I agree but say the chosen disciplines at the winter games (because of climate and costs) are so exclusive as to make the event an olympiad (however commercial the organisation has become) is ridiculous.
the facts show that the summer games are not like this at all.
I agree with Oakster, just because certain parts of the world aren't winter nations and so have less competitors in the Winter Olympics compared to the Summer Olympics, doesn't make it any less of an Olympic Games. There may be no African Cross Country Skiers, but there are also very few Danish long distance runners for example. Each country will be better at different sports depending on a multitude of factors e.g climate, facilities, funding etc, and although winter sports are more prohibitive by nature (seeing as less of the world has a climate for it than for sports found in summer games), there is still a need for a competition between member countries.
Anyway, the idea of Olympic ideals are ridiculous to me seeing as they are sponsored by McDonald's and Coca Cola.Not exactly the best choice of sponsors to "educate youth through sport". Still makes for great telly though!
Why do people look so fooking deep into things no wonder the world is such a shite place.
ENJOY THINGS FOR WHAT THEY FOOKING ARE
it was a cracking spectacle i enjoyed it i want it called the winter olympics
i think we should invest more in the Ice based events there is no reason why the speed skaiting and the Dancing on ice stuff and the ICe hockey we can not get better at.
I would also like to see the bobsleighers and the skiers sponsored and sent away to train for 4 years at a time so we are competing.
Why does sport end up as politics with some of you lot
[cite]Posted By: Floyd Montana[/cite]Er Oakster, see the participation details I have posted.
I think that answers your point.
you say its about finding the best athletes in each chosen discipline. I agree but say the chosen disciplines at the winter games (because of climate and costs) are so exclusive as to make the event an olympiad (however commercial the organisation has become) is ridiculous.
the facts show that the summer games are not like this at all.
How many cycling medals have the African nations won - does every African, Asian, South American country have access to velodromes or even good, unrutted, safe roads - what about swimming? Are you telling me that a want to be Olympic swimmer in Bangladesh can just stroll along to his Olympic sized pool & start doing lengths. How is the wannabe canoeist in Tunisia or Morocco going to fare?
I suspect access to top class equestrian facilities in Nicaragua may be a little sketchy. How many world class ping-pong coaches are there in Surinam or Belize, do they even have access to the equipment needed? Where are all the African medalists in Badminton, Fencing training complexes in Mexico (there's a job for Razil there I suspect), sailing centres in Mongolia, Handball courts and coaches in Great Britain etc etc etc etc
Even the everyman sports like football and some of the athletic endeavours are hugely biased towards developed, westernized nations.
Thank you Oakster. Every time I look at this thread, which started out in such a positive manner, I keep getting angrier. I've started to post a few times and thought better of it, but you're doing so well that I don't need to.
[cite]Posted By: Can-addick[/cite]Thank you Oakster. Every time I look at this thread, which started out in such a positive manner, I keep getting angrier. I've started to post a few times and thought better of it, but you're doing so well that I don't need to.
Carry on!
I don't think the Winter Games are perfect, far from it - however as Nth London Addick says why can't people just enjoy them for what they are? If you don't like then, fair enough - turn them off. I would have said five years ago the Cross Coutntry Skiing has to be the most boring sport on earth, but now as a regular participant in the sport I love it and the competition at these games has been amazing. The sport was dominated by the Nordic powerhouses - Sweden, Norway, Finland - that dominance is eroding fast & the likes of Canada, Switzerland & France are catching up.
If the games inspire kids to get off their arses & go outdoors in the winter to skate, ski or even sled - that is for me is it's most important legacy.
Except you start that post by confusing how many medals are won with actually participating.
And no one has said they dont like the games, no one has said the games are anything but a fantastic event, a wonderful spectacle and a brilliant sporting highlight in the year, have they? no one has said they shouldnt continue or that they arent an inspiration, at least in the limited number of countries that took up the TV rights.
I suspect that it's true that the Winter Olympics have historically had limited appeal, but one of the wonderful legacies of these Games seems to be the heightened interest around the world in some of the sports on offer.
I've been heartened, by this board and other places, to see that hockey is developing a non-traditional audience (which is just one reason why the NHL even considering not sending players to Sochi is folly!), and some of the other sports (snowboardcross, skeleton etc.) are being appreciated as the exciting spectacles that they are. As Canadians go, I don't even consider myself to be a huge hockey fan, but as team sports go, it is pretty exciting...
The said, even with the Canadian gold, I still can't get my head around ice dancing, but different horses for different courses, no?
Oakster, you're living in the right place to learn to love X-C skiing! One thing you learn living in Canada is just how important it is to find something (anything!) about winter than you enjoy, so that you can actively appreciate and perhaps even look forward to the season, rather than just suffering through it.
I think the exclusivity thing is always an issue at any Olympics. It's perhaps a bit silly the extent to which we revelled in our velodrome cyclists in Beijing, considering that in the sports that almost anyone can do (running, throwing etc.) we get soundly beaten.
It would be interesting if there was somehow an Olympic table that gave greater weight to medals in certain sports. Probably impossible to construct, but I feel Bolt's double Gold should be worth more than China robotically banking a couple of diving medals.
[cite]Posted By: Can-addick[/cite]Either you're as lucky as they come, or you're made of money, or both! I'll look forward to hearing more about it...
Got lucky Can and it was truly immense.I would still trade the experience for Charlton to go up this season though (as long as I could have watched it on the box).
Comments
I'm no fan of the Olympics (rampant commercialism, sponsorship by some of the least appropriate companies at a 'sporting' event (McDonalds, Coca-Cola etc), ridiculously sums of host countries' taxpayers money with no reward or lasting legacy etc etc) but saying that the winter olympics are 'elitist' is daft. The summer olympics are just as 'elitist'. In fact, every global sporting event is 'elitist' - the very definition of 'elitist' in fact.
Enjoyed the Snow cross and the ice hockey final.
Agree we should go back to the original Olympian ethic of men only competing, in the nude, and include poetry.
As to variations of forms of running or jogging in the summer Olympics?
I really hope you are on a wind up
No I'm not. Sledding is a childrens pass time.
So is jumping into sand and throwing sharp sticks.
Henry - Dont understand the logic that, if I have an opinion about the validity of the winter games being in any way olympic, it has to be a wind up. It wasnt intended to be
Winter Games
2,500 athletes from the 82 richest countries with miniscule participation from S America (Oddly one of the three participants from Peru is a friend) , Africa (I dont know any of the THREE competitors from the 47 countries in Africa) the Middle East or much of Asia,
seems a lot more elite than
The 2008 Olympic games
11,000 atheletes from 204 national olympic committees.(which is impressive given that I believe there are only 197 countries in the world!?)
Could that not be down to the fact that in South America, the Middle East, Asia and Africa, you generally don't get such harsh winters, thus preventing people from these countries actually participating in them. I think I'm right in saying that the 'Snow Leopard' from Ghana was only competing because he was born in Glasgow and worked at the Milton Keynes Snowdome. If the climate isn't conducive to winter sports, of course it's going to be the richest countries who can afford the facilities to artificially replicate them.
It's like saying, "you don't get any competitors in the summer Olympics from Antarctica, so therefore it doesn't meet Olympic ideals."
Tell that to the Cross Country Skiers - you would not get 50 meters double-poleing on a pair of cross Country skis before collapsing with exhaustion, let alone 50km...ridiculous know nothing statement!! I have nothing but respect for those athletes in the hardest, most physically demanding sport bar none. It makes a Marathon look like a walk in the park.
How about the fact that the Winter Olympics reflect the nations where winter is the prevalent climate?? Have you tried doing the long jump or chucking the javelin about when it is -40 outside and there's 3 feet of snow on the ground? The WO reflect the fact that in many countries the only way to get around under your own steam is to slide either on ice (skating) or snow (skiing)........last time i looked training opportunities under those conditions don't really exist in Nigeria, Brazil, Egypt etc etc
Oakster - I agree. Obviously not all the events involve hanging onto something hurtling down a fixed course. Personally I really enjoyed some of the events, such as the snowboard destruction derby. some are not IMHO worthy of Olympic gold medals however, and they are a greater percentage of the total than similar events i the proper olympics
On a par with world series baseball - ridiculous
"The goal of the Olympic Movement is to contribute to building a peaceful and better world by educating youth through sport practiced without discrimination of any kind and in the Olympic spirit, which requires mutual understanding with a spirit of friendship, solidarity and fair play."
time to sit on the naughty step for being deliberately obtuse.
Your choice of football is a really poor one due to the fact that virtually every country has a F Federation and participates.
I am not saying every person should play , as you well know.
Who says they are unable to compete - if a Nigerian skier has the talent & drive, I am sure they can and would certainly be encouraged to make it. To me the Olympics is about finding the best athletes in each chosen discipline.......naturally the winter games will predominantly attract participants from the winter dominated countries.
Olympic ideals died out in the 1920's I suspect - it has been a political event in every way, summer & winter, since then.
There are plenty (if not a majority) of summer sports where climatic, cultural or political reasons exclude most of countries from seriously participating - does that mean the summer Olympics should be dismantled.
I think that answers your point.
you say its about finding the best athletes in each chosen discipline. I agree but say the chosen disciplines at the winter games (because of climate and costs) are so exclusive as to make the event an olympiad (however commercial the organisation has become) is ridiculous.
the facts show that the summer games are not like this at all.
Anyway, the idea of Olympic ideals are ridiculous to me seeing as they are sponsored by McDonald's and Coca Cola.Not exactly the best choice of sponsors to "educate youth through sport". Still makes for great telly though!
ENJOY THINGS FOR WHAT THEY FOOKING ARE
it was a cracking spectacle i enjoyed it i want it called the winter olympics
i think we should invest more in the Ice based events there is no reason why the speed skaiting and the Dancing on ice stuff and the ICe hockey we can not get better at.
I would also like to see the bobsleighers and the skiers sponsored and sent away to train for 4 years at a time so we are competing.
Why does sport end up as politics with some of you lot
How many cycling medals have the African nations won - does every African, Asian, South American country have access to velodromes or even good, unrutted, safe roads - what about swimming? Are you telling me that a want to be Olympic swimmer in Bangladesh can just stroll along to his Olympic sized pool & start doing lengths. How is the wannabe canoeist in Tunisia or Morocco going to fare?
I suspect access to top class equestrian facilities in Nicaragua may be a little sketchy. How many world class ping-pong coaches are there in Surinam or Belize, do they even have access to the equipment needed? Where are all the African medalists in Badminton, Fencing training complexes in Mexico (there's a job for Razil there I suspect), sailing centres in Mongolia, Handball courts and coaches in Great Britain etc etc etc etc
Even the everyman sports like football and some of the athletic endeavours are hugely biased towards developed, westernized nations.
A games with just 82 countries competing is just as worthy of the Olympic tag as one involving every country in the world
Carry on!
Letting white people win at sports no one else can afford to learn.
;o)
I don't think the Winter Games are perfect, far from it - however as Nth London Addick says why can't people just enjoy them for what they are? If you don't like then, fair enough - turn them off. I would have said five years ago the Cross Coutntry Skiing has to be the most boring sport on earth, but now as a regular participant in the sport I love it and the competition at these games has been amazing. The sport was dominated by the Nordic powerhouses - Sweden, Norway, Finland - that dominance is eroding fast & the likes of Canada, Switzerland & France are catching up.
If the games inspire kids to get off their arses & go outdoors in the winter to skate, ski or even sled - that is for me is it's most important legacy.
I refer you to post #109 :-)
And no one has said they dont like the games, no one has said the games are anything but a fantastic event, a wonderful spectacle and a brilliant sporting highlight in the year, have they? no one has said they shouldnt continue or that they arent an inspiration, at least in the limited number of countries that took up the TV rights.
I've been heartened, by this board and other places, to see that hockey is developing a non-traditional audience (which is just one reason why the NHL even considering not sending players to Sochi is folly!), and some of the other sports (snowboardcross, skeleton etc.) are being appreciated as the exciting spectacles that they are. As Canadians go, I don't even consider myself to be a huge hockey fan, but as team sports go, it is pretty exciting...
The said, even with the Canadian gold, I still can't get my head around ice dancing, but different horses for different courses, no?
Oakster, you're living in the right place to learn to love X-C skiing! One thing you learn living in Canada is just how important it is to find something (anything!) about winter than you enjoy, so that you can actively appreciate and perhaps even look forward to the season, rather than just suffering through it.
If you don't like the games, turn 'em off.
yes I know, now get out there & take up handball - you might get in the 2012 team we are no doubt in the process of assembling
It would be interesting if there was somehow an Olympic table that gave greater weight to medals in certain sports. Probably impossible to construct, but I feel Bolt's double Gold should be worth more than China robotically banking a couple of diving medals.
Got lucky Can and it was truly immense.I would still trade the experience for Charlton to go up this season though (as long as I could have watched it on the box).