[cite]Posted By: RedArmySE7[/cite]I've really enjoyed reading this, probably more educational than any book I could have got. I didn't live through the Thatcher years but I know my Dad will be throwing a party when she dies. He hates her, with a passion. In fact most of the people I know will be dancing in the street from what I gather.
How come she managed to win three general elections if 'everyone' hated her so much.......wake up and smell the coffee ....most people admired her, if not exactly liked her I'd say. Maybe your backgound has a lot to do with your views when you say most people you know will be dancing in the streets....which(for effect),is of course wild exageration anyway.
You have to know what went 'before' Thatcher to see why she was admired so much.
I did great under her leadership, she gave the little guy hope and encouragment to flourish....so what do you expect me to say...mind you I've always been the sort who get's off my arse and does my own thing and not expect that the world owes me a living. I also don't prescribe to the politics of envy (which old fashioned Socialism did to a large extent back then)....it doesn't bother me that someone has more than me...I just strive to do better and hopefully join them.
Great debate guys, well done.
I was born in 79 so lived my childhood through the Thatcher government, so a lot of what I've read is an education for me, all I know is that my dad was made redundant 3 times during her time as PM, never recovered and became an alcoholic - whether this is due to Government policies or just rotten luck I'll never know.
Like Marx said, and I'm not a Marxist, the workers create a base where their lot is to perform for the superstructure (bosses and owners), the only role the base really have is to create wealth for the superstructure and it is they that decide what to do with it...
Not very nice I know but it's the way of things and unless you can come up with a fairer deal then I'm afraid we're all stuck with it...
until the workers become ideologically aware of the structure and seek change. hence you have social reform, if not revolution. marx's understanding of capitalism wasn't completely fatalistic.
[cite]Posted By: RedArmySE7[/cite]I've really enjoyed reading this, probably more educational than any book I could have got. I didn't live through the Thatcher years but I know my Dad will be throwing a party when she dies. He hates her, with a passion. In fact most of the people I know will be dancing in the street from what I gather.
How come she managed to win three general elections if 'everyone' hated her so much.......wake up and smell the coffee ....most people admired her, if not exactly liked her I'd say. Maybe your backgound has a lot to do with your views when you say most people you know will be dancing in the streets....which(for effect),is of course wild exageration anyway.
You have to know what went 'before' Thatcher to see why she was admired so much.
I did great under her leadership, she gave the little guy hope and encouragment to flourish....so what do you expect me to say...mind you I've always been the sort who get's off my arse and does my own thing and not expect that the world owes me a living. I also don't prescribe to the politics of envy (which old fashioned Socialism did to a large extent back then)....it doesn't bother me that someone has more than me...I just strive to do better and hopefully join them.
Doubtful that "most people admired her" - she never got close to even 50% of the popular vote in any General Election (her highest share was 43.9% in 1979) - although to be fair neither did her son and heir Tony Blair ever get near 50%.
She also benefited from facing the unelectable Foot in 1983 and the almost as bad Kinnock in 1987!!!
[cite]Posted By: RedArmySE7[/cite]I've really enjoyed reading this, probably more educational than any book I could have got. I didn't live through the Thatcher years but I know my Dad will be throwing a party when she dies. He hates her, with a passion. In fact most of the people I know will be dancing in the street from what I gather.
How come she managed to win three general elections if 'everyone' hated her so much.......wake up and smell the coffee ....most people admired her, if not exactly liked her I'd say. Maybe your backgound has a lot to do with your views when you say most people you know will be dancing in the streets....which(for effect),is of course wild exageration anyway.
You have to know what went 'before' Thatcher to see why she was admired so much.
I did great under her leadership, she gave the little guy hope and encouragment to flourish....so what do you expect me to say...mind you I've always been the sort who get's off my arse and does my own thing and not expect that the world owes me a living. I also don't prescribe to the politics of envy (which old fashioned Socialism did to a large extent back then)....it doesn't bother me that someone has more than me...I just strive to do better and hopefully join them.
SoundAs,
I have no idea why she was elected 3 times, like I said I was too young to have an opinion as I was born in '86. From reading this (and this is just an observation) she seems to have definitely divided the country in a way I've not seen from one person before. But the fact the Labour party were as people have quoted here "unelectable" at the time must have something to do with it, very similar to the reason Labour won the election in 2005 because the Tory party were such a joke?
I completely agree with with you when you say it doesn't bother you if people do better than you, I admire them and also strive to improve and join them. Probably why I saved up to buy my own home at the age of 20 and move out of a council estate in Downham. I wanted more than that. This attitude from reading this thread does seem to stem from Maggie selling off the council house's so that everyone could own their own home etc.
As for most of the people I know "dancing in the street" that is because like I said I grew up on a council estate so most of my friends family's there obviously didn't (or more likely couldn't) take advantage of the chance you say Maggie gave so are stuck there while other's moved away around them so maybe that envy/anger still burns strong. I work now as a Signalling Engineer on the railway and I know she's widespread hated in that industry because of her stripping it to the bone and privatising it, not one person I work with can stand her.
But like I say I'm really no expert, just justifying why I said what I did and trying to find reason's for their hatred in what I've learned here.
Congratulations on doing so well under her reign, clearly if you thrive personally under someone's leadership you'll have a fondness for them, completely understandable. No animosity here :-)
I was working in Newcastle in the early seventies. The tyne & wear shipyards - on account of cheaper overseas competition not conservative policies - were already in heavy decline. And that's the way the rest of our industry went. (How many Labour supporters and union memebers switched from British built to foreign built cars and never looked back?) But I expect it was Maggie's fault that they decided to buy japanese wasn't it? It was in the main cheaper foreign labour, not Thatcher that was the root of the problem.
Interestingly there were a series of articles in the local toon press while I was there. They concerned what was a thriving sheet metal industry on purpose-built industrial estates just outside the town. They were crying out for skilled workers. But the unemployed tyne/wear shipbuilders wouldn't travel the few miles to take a job. They thought they had the right to employment just at the end of their street and prefered to stay on the dole rather than commute. As someone used to commuting into London each day I was bemused by their attitude. Many of the workers employed in these factories were actually from London! So there was an element of truth to Norman Tebbit's "get on your bike" stance.
"When Mrs. T dies, she's going to be buried at the bottom of a very deep lake. Or at least, that's what it'll be once everyone's finished pissing on her grave!"
Jimmy Carr? what a strange looking fecker he is. Still stealing an act from the Ben Elton right-on joke book I see.
Born 1963, so I guess I lived with the complete farce pre Thatcher, the Thatcher "look it is a farce lets get real" years and the complete farce that has come after it. Let me just say to the "youngsters" on here.... If there is one piece of advice I can give you budding politicos, it is that politics will always be a complete farce, until someone comes along that proves otherwise, that is the rule. What Thatcher did early on in her tenure was sweep away decades of bull shit that drove this country to ruin before reverting back to type and you guessed it farce. Bizzarely as it turned out she eventually made labour electable again as Noo Labour, now that was a farce. Unfortunately I agree with many on here, I cant see much further than more farce from the next lot. Whilst idly looking up a definition of the word "farce" I noticed a synonym of it "sham" best defines it....
sham /ʃæm/ Show Spelled [sham] Show IPA noun, adjective, verb,shammed, sham·ming. –noun 1.something that is not what it purports to be; a spurious imitation; fraud or hoax. 2.a person who shams; shammer. 3.a cover or the like for giving a thing a different outward appearance: a pillow sham. –adjective 4.pretended; counterfeit; feigned: sham attacks; a sham Gothic façade. 5.designed, made, or used as a sham. –verb (used with object) 6.to produce an imitation of. 7.to assume the appearance of; pretend to have: to sham illness. –verb (used without object) 8.to make a false show of something; pretend.
Feck, I really must get back into gainful employment again.
[cite]Posted By: RedArmySE7[/cite]I work now as a Signalling Engineer on the railway and I know she's widespread hated in that industry because of her stripping it to the bone and privatising it, not one person I work with can stand her.
I worked in a responsible position with British Rail all through the 80's .....Thatcher made it clear she thought the railways had no long term future and should be replaced by road.
Consequently the railways were overall starved of investment, stock and infrastructure was run down and staffing reduced to ridiculous levels - where services were frequently cancelled simply because there was no staff or serviceable stock to operate them.
Thing is that other countries have invested in their own industries and infrastructure and thrived, or at least ridden out hard times easier, as a result.
Britain was and is quite capable of producing for example, cars efficiently and at a profit. That's why Nissan built a car plant here.
The problem was that UK management was unable to match their levels of forward planning so plant became obsolete, design was poor and the product not competitive. That was due to a lack of any long term desire to invest but rather take a quick profit NOW. Just what got the banks in such a mess.
The unions didn't help but when the Nissan plant was built in Sunderland the unions were happy to sign one union agreements and make it work as they had management they could deal with.
Thatcher was dogmatic. She believed in monetarism as the solution to all problems and so forbade any real re-investment or re-training in industrial areas.
Selling people their council house was a great idea but councils were then forbidden from spending that money on any new housing stock. Why? Because council housing was "socialist" and interfering in the free market. And home owners were deemed more likely to vote Conservative.
I remember when unemployment hit £1m in the late 70s/earlier 80s. It was seen as horrific at the time. Thatcher won in 79 with the slogan of "labour isn't working" but a few years later unemployment was over £3m.
What she did wasn't all bad. Some of the reforms, such as of union power, were needed. But she and her party didn't care who got hurt as long as her dogma was adhered to and big business and the free market was given free rein to do as it wished as that was "the only way". It wasn't and it isn't as 87 and the current crash show.
Dance in the street when she dies? No, but I'll walk out if they have a minutes silence for her at the Valley or anywhere else.
Before Thatcher won the 1979 election, Unions had come to abuse the responsibility of their position and the Labour government of the day was dead on it's feet. The Country was ripe for change.
But Thatcher, as Henry says, was dogmatic, arrogant and ruthless - and the pendulum swung too far.
After her eventual artificial boom years, an economy largely fuelled by credit but at exorbitant rates of interest which finally crashed and plunged the Country into deep recession. Then her own people twisted the knife in her back and brought her down.
At first, she seemed to see herself as a cross between Queen Boudiccea and Winston Churchill - but later settled to trying to ape royalty ......"We are a grandmother now", she told the nation on the birth of her grandson, to total ridicule in the media.
And she surely wouldn't have survived the first bleak years of her "rule" if it hadn't been for 2 principle factors: the prolonged ineptness of the opposition party and the Jingo-ism of the Falklands War: in just a few weeks, 247 dead and many more maimed or seriously injured. She didn't shed a tear for them. But she wept in public when her son Mark disappeared in the desert for a few days.
It was the only time I recall her showing the slightest glimpse of compassion. But only for herself.
[cite]Posted By: guinnessaddick[/cite]Have a look at the series " Boys from the black Stuff" to see what it was like.
Boys from the Black Stuff was written in 1978, a full year before Thatcher was elected Prime Minister....
When he was interviewed on the Parkinson show about the series Bleasdale pretended it was his statement about the true uncaring attitude of Thatcher's government....
After the show Thatcher wrote a letter to the media reminding Bleasdale that the play was actually written when Labour was in power....
[cite]Posted By: guinnessaddick[/cite]Have a look at the series " Boys from the black Stuff" to see what it was like.
Boys from the Black Stuff was written in 1978, a full year before Thatcher was elected Prime Minister....
When he was interviewed on the Parkinson show about the series Bleasdale pretended it was his statement about the true uncaring attitude of Thatcher's government....
After the show Thatcher wrote a letter to the media reminding Bleasdale that the play was actually written when Labour was in power....
He did not reply....
That's wrong. The original play, the Black Stuff was written in 1978 for Play for Today. The series Boys from the Black Stuff, which is what people mostly remember, was broadcast in 1982.
[cite]Posted By: guinnessaddick[/cite]Have a look at the series " Boys from the black Stuff" to see what it was like.
Boys from the Black Stuff was written in 1978, a full year before Thatcher was elected Prime Minister....
When he was interviewed on the Parkinson show about the series Bleasdale pretended it was his statement about the true uncaring attitude of Thatcher's government....
After the show Thatcher wrote a letter to the media reminding Bleasdale that the play was actually written when Labour was in power....
He did not reply....
That's wrong. The original play, the Black Stuff was written in 1978 for Play for Today. The series Boys from the Black Stuff, which is what people mostly remember, was broadcast in 1982.
The original play wasn't aired until 1980, he was already working on the series before it was shown on the BBC...
Thatcher sussed Scargill out she knew his ego would work in her faviour. Before she took the National Union of MIners (not all the miners) on she had huge amounts of coal piled up at Deptford and Battersea Powers stations (to name two sites) , both of these places had stopped generating by then. The Power Workers warned Scargill but he didnt listen. He called a strike but never called an Official strike. He lost and the rest is history------------ she rolled the unions over one by one after that.
That coal ???? it was purchased from that loverly SOCIALIST country Poland. Yep dont you just love socialist solidarity, which is weird because thats the name they used to throw off their socialist state !!
GH, you hate socialists, communists, seem to hate capitalists and profiteering and also seem entirely dissatisfied with democracy... What actually is your preferred form of government? Transcendentalism or what?
when i went to uni it was the tories who were phasing out grants and bringing in loans. Don't agree with tuition fees but apparently its cos far more people got to go to Uni under labour, so someone has to pay I guess.
Thatcher basically put the county at war with itself.
She made the UK the Democratic guinea pig for Chicago school free market economics. Like all countries that have had the laissez faire economic model forced on them this resulted in a one off land grab which enabled some to do very well whilst other saw their way of life and communities die. People’s opinions of her are very much based on which side of the divide they fell on.
She privatised national industries and asset stripped Social Housing stock. Some did very well out of this whilst even today people are suffering through the high rents they have to pay in the private sector as a result of this.
Many of the Unions of the time were woefully misled by leaders more interested in following their political ideologies than representing their members but, that said, the way she was willing to turn every tool of the state against those that opposed her was an absolute disgrace and had echoes of the forced free market ‘revolutions’ in South America.
This didn't just happen with national companies but also with Rupert Murdoch's fledgling empire where millions of taxpayer’s pounds were spent on police to keeping the News International presses running during the Wapping dispute.
In short she set us on a course to the globalised world we see today where money is everything and society is nothing.
[cite]Posted By: razil[/cite]when i went to uni it was the tories who were phasing out grants and bringing in loans. Don't agree with tuition fees but apparently its cos far more people got to go to Uni under labour, so someone has to pay I guess.
I thought it was Bliar that introduced tuition fees fees and loans with his Teaching and Higher Education Act 1998....
I didn't agree with everything that Thatcher did and towards the end she did seem to be losing the plot somewhat but at least she was honest and up front about her intentions..
Try reading the Tory Manifesto 1979, absolutely no surprises there whatsoever, she set out her stall and went at it, the country liked it and went for it too....
Comments
My old man and his mates love her...
Few mates at school have said the same thong aswell
How come she managed to win three general elections if 'everyone' hated her so much.......wake up and smell the coffee ....most people admired her, if not exactly liked her I'd say. Maybe your backgound has a lot to do with your views when you say most people you know will be dancing in the streets....which(for effect),is of course wild exageration anyway.
You have to know what went 'before' Thatcher to see why she was admired so much.
I did great under her leadership, she gave the little guy hope and encouragment to flourish....so what do you expect me to say...mind you I've always been the sort who get's off my arse and does my own thing and not expect that the world owes me a living. I also don't prescribe to the politics of envy (which old fashioned Socialism did to a large extent back then)....it doesn't bother me that someone has more than me...I just strive to do better and hopefully join them.
I was born in 79 so lived my childhood through the Thatcher government, so a lot of what I've read is an education for me, all I know is that my dad was made redundant 3 times during her time as PM, never recovered and became an alcoholic - whether this is due to Government policies or just rotten luck I'll never know.
Like Marx said, and I'm not a Marxist, the workers create a base where their lot is to perform for the superstructure (bosses and owners), the only role the base really have is to create wealth for the superstructure and it is they that decide what to do with it...
Not very nice I know but it's the way of things and unless you can come up with a fairer deal then I'm afraid we're all stuck with it...
until the workers become ideologically aware of the structure and seek change. hence you have social reform, if not revolution. marx's understanding of capitalism wasn't completely fatalistic.
Doubtful that "most people admired her" - she never got close to even 50% of the popular vote in any General Election (her highest share was 43.9% in 1979) - although to be fair neither did her son and heir Tony Blair ever get near 50%.
She also benefited from facing the unelectable Foot in 1983 and the almost as bad Kinnock in 1987!!!
SoundAs,
I have no idea why she was elected 3 times, like I said I was too young to have an opinion as I was born in '86. From reading this (and this is just an observation) she seems to have definitely divided the country in a way I've not seen from one person before. But the fact the Labour party were as people have quoted here "unelectable" at the time must have something to do with it, very similar to the reason Labour won the election in 2005 because the Tory party were such a joke?
I completely agree with with you when you say it doesn't bother you if people do better than you, I admire them and also strive to improve and join them. Probably why I saved up to buy my own home at the age of 20 and move out of a council estate in Downham. I wanted more than that. This attitude from reading this thread does seem to stem from Maggie selling off the council house's so that everyone could own their own home etc.
As for most of the people I know "dancing in the street" that is because like I said I grew up on a council estate so most of my friends family's there obviously didn't (or more likely couldn't) take advantage of the chance you say Maggie gave so are stuck there while other's moved away around them so maybe that envy/anger still burns strong. I work now as a Signalling Engineer on the railway and I know she's widespread hated in that industry because of her stripping it to the bone and privatising it, not one person I work with can stand her.
But like I say I'm really no expert, just justifying why I said what I did and trying to find reason's for their hatred in what I've learned here.
Congratulations on doing so well under her reign, clearly if you thrive personally under someone's leadership you'll have a fondness for them, completely understandable. No animosity here :-)
Interestingly there were a series of articles in the local toon press while I was there. They concerned what was a thriving sheet metal industry on purpose-built industrial estates just outside the town. They were crying out for skilled workers. But the unemployed tyne/wear shipbuilders wouldn't travel the few miles to take a job. They thought they had the right to employment just at the end of their street and prefered to stay on the dole rather than commute. As someone used to commuting into London each day I was bemused by their attitude. Many of the workers employed in these factories were actually from London! So there was an element of truth to Norman Tebbit's "get on your bike" stance.
"When Mrs. T dies, she's going to be buried at the bottom of a very deep lake. Or at least, that's what it'll be once everyone's finished pissing on her grave!"
Born 1963, so I guess I lived with the complete farce pre Thatcher, the Thatcher "look it is a farce lets get real" years and the complete farce that has come after it. Let me just say to the "youngsters" on here.... If there is one piece of advice I can give you budding politicos, it is that politics will always be a complete farce, until someone comes along that proves otherwise, that is the rule. What Thatcher did early on in her tenure was sweep away decades of bull shit that drove this country to ruin before reverting back to type and you guessed it farce. Bizzarely as it turned out she eventually made labour electable again as Noo Labour, now that was a farce.
Unfortunately I agree with many on here, I cant see much further than more farce from the next lot. Whilst idly looking up a definition of the word "farce" I noticed a synonym of it "sham" best defines it....
sham /ʃæm/ Show Spelled [sham] Show IPA noun, adjective, verb,shammed, sham·ming.
–noun
1.something that is not what it purports to be; a spurious imitation; fraud or hoax.
2.a person who shams; shammer.
3.a cover or the like for giving a thing a different outward appearance: a pillow sham.
–adjective
4.pretended; counterfeit; feigned: sham attacks; a sham Gothic façade.
5.designed, made, or used as a sham.
–verb (used with object)
6.to produce an imitation of.
7.to assume the appearance of; pretend to have: to sham illness.
–verb (used without object)
8.to make a false show of something; pretend.
Feck, I really must get back into gainful employment again.
I worked in a responsible position with British Rail all through the 80's .....Thatcher made it clear she thought the railways had no long term future and should be replaced by road.
Consequently the railways were overall starved of investment, stock and infrastructure was run down and staffing reduced to ridiculous levels - where services were frequently cancelled simply because there was no staff or serviceable stock to operate them.
Britain was and is quite capable of producing for example, cars efficiently and at a profit. That's why Nissan built a car plant here.
The problem was that UK management was unable to match their levels of forward planning so plant became obsolete, design was poor and the product not competitive. That was due to a lack of any long term desire to invest but rather take a quick profit NOW. Just what got the banks in such a mess.
The unions didn't help but when the Nissan plant was built in Sunderland the unions were happy to sign one union agreements and make it work as they had management they could deal with.
Thatcher was dogmatic. She believed in monetarism as the solution to all problems and so forbade any real re-investment or re-training in industrial areas.
Selling people their council house was a great idea but councils were then forbidden from spending that money on any new housing stock. Why? Because council housing was "socialist" and interfering in the free market. And home owners were deemed more likely to vote Conservative.
I remember when unemployment hit £1m in the late 70s/earlier 80s. It was seen as horrific at the time. Thatcher won in 79 with the slogan of "labour isn't working" but a few years later unemployment was over £3m.
What she did wasn't all bad. Some of the reforms, such as of union power, were needed. But she and her party didn't care who got hurt as long as her dogma was adhered to and big business and the free market was given free rein to do as it wished as that was "the only way". It wasn't and it isn't as 87 and the current crash show.
Dance in the street when she dies? No, but I'll walk out if they have a minutes silence for her at the Valley or anywhere else.
But Thatcher, as Henry says, was dogmatic, arrogant and ruthless - and the pendulum swung too far.
After her eventual artificial boom years, an economy largely fuelled by credit but at exorbitant rates of interest which finally crashed and plunged the Country into deep recession. Then her own people twisted the knife in her back and brought her down.
At first, she seemed to see herself as a cross between Queen Boudiccea and Winston Churchill - but later settled to trying to ape royalty ......"We are a grandmother now", she told the nation on the birth of her grandson, to total ridicule in the media.
And she surely wouldn't have survived the first bleak years of her "rule" if it hadn't been for 2 principle factors: the prolonged ineptness of the opposition party and the Jingo-ism of the Falklands War: in just a few weeks, 247 dead and many more maimed or seriously injured. She didn't shed a tear for them. But she wept in public when her son Mark disappeared in the desert for a few days.
It was the only time I recall her showing the slightest glimpse of compassion. But only for herself.
When he was interviewed on the Parkinson show about the series Bleasdale pretended it was his statement about the true uncaring attitude of Thatcher's government....
After the show Thatcher wrote a letter to the media reminding Bleasdale that the play was actually written when Labour was in power....
He did not reply....
That's wrong. The original play, the Black Stuff was written in 1978 for Play for Today. The series Boys from the Black Stuff, which is what people mostly remember, was broadcast in 1982.
That coal ???? it was purchased from that loverly SOCIALIST country Poland. Yep dont you just love socialist solidarity, which is weird because thats the name they used to throw off their socialist state !!
She made the UK the Democratic guinea pig for Chicago school free market economics. Like all countries that have had the laissez faire economic model forced on them this resulted in a one off land grab which enabled some to do very well whilst other saw their way of life and communities die. People’s opinions of her are very much based on which side of the divide they fell on.
She privatised national industries and asset stripped Social Housing stock. Some did very well out of this whilst even today people are suffering through the high rents they have to pay in the private sector as a result of this.
Many of the Unions of the time were woefully misled by leaders more interested in following their political ideologies than representing their members but, that said, the way she was willing to turn every tool of the state against those that opposed her was an absolute disgrace and had echoes of the forced free market ‘revolutions’ in South America.
This didn't just happen with national companies but also with Rupert Murdoch's fledgling empire where millions of taxpayer’s pounds were spent on police to keeping the News International presses running during the Wapping dispute.
In short she set us on a course to the globalised world we see today where money is everything and society is nothing.
Try reading the Tory Manifesto 1979, absolutely no surprises there whatsoever, she set out her stall and went at it, the country liked it and went for it too....
I think of her as a Churchill with a clitoris...
She was also a ****.