Most of our players are massively overated with the possible exception of Rooney. Capello is the best England manager since Bobby Robson/Alf Ramsey. John Terry's comments re Joe Cole were just as Capello said, disrespectful to the other players in the squad. He is, indeed, scum. Ashley Cole not much better but at least he can play.
Whatever the outcome of this World Cup, and it will certainly not be England getting any further than the semis, at best, Capello should have a major clear out and start planning for the next World Cup. The older players are not just short of talent but they have the wrong attitude. Younger players may not be much better talent-wise, but they will be more open-minded and with the potential to develop the right behaviours and attitude.
[cite]Posted By: Ormiston Addick[/cite]Lampard doesn't play well for England because he is surrounded by far better players in his club side....
It is absolutely NOT a question of a lack of commitment, its a complete lack of collective technique compared to our continental cousins.
In short, they play to keep possession and then score goals whereas England try and play the killer pass as early as possible and give the ball away.
We don't have a play-maker, both Gerrard and Lampard are goal-scoring midfielders who want to get on the end of things.
Our only playmaker is Carrick and he can't even get in the United team, this is why Capello tried to bring Scholes back into the side.
Not sure about the point about Lampard's ability. I've seen him play some terrific stuff for Chelski, and it's not like the foreign players repeatedly kick the ball in the net for him.
But otherwise, it's refreshing to see a post actually about footballing reasons being the cause of footballing results. My post wasn't aimed at you per se, but all this rubbish that keeps cropping up on this forum that England played poorly because Glen Johnson stole a toilet seat from B&Q or because Terry's image rights are on a chocolate bar.
Lampard's Chelsea team-mates don't "kick the ball in the net for him" but the likes of Drogba, Anelka, Kalou, Malouda and Deco provide him with far superior service than his England colleagues.
As a result, Lampard is able to get in the box and finish off crosses - something he is excellent at doing - or hold back and wait for lay-offs from the likes of Drogba.
In that setting he is a fantastic player but for England he basically has to play as an orthodox box-to-box player and that is not his game at all.
As for Gerrard, there is no denying his dynamism which enables him to score great goals and pick out the occasional exceptional pass but he is nowhere near being a ball-player in the proper meaning of the term.
The last genuine play-maker we had was Gascoigne, although Scholes would have been up there if he had played for longer under Hoddle.
[cite]Posted By: davy[/cite]The players earn too much money and don't give a flying f*ck if they win the world cup or not!
Agree they earn too much but I fancy they very much care...though in truth, they sometimes have a funny way of showing it....either as individuals or collectively.
You have to build your team around a nucleus of the right type of character. All successful teams have that. Curbs was a master of unearthing players that not only had a great attitude but that complimented each others styles. Players like Kinsella, Brown, Robinson, Keily. Not world beaters by any means, but on their day good enough to stuff the Gunners on their own turf. It's something that I, and many others underestimated about his managerial abilities at the time. I maintain that he would have done far better as England manager than most of us could imagine. Dawson would be in for Terry, Parker would be in for Lampard and Bent would be upfront. Effort and determination would be increased by 15-20% instantly. The better attitude and passion would be infectious and permeate throughout the squad. It's not just about the quality of the players, it's about playing as a team. New Zealand proved that against Italy.
[cite]Posted By: queensland_addick[/cite]Dawson would be in for Terry, Parker would be in for Lampard and Bent would be upfront. Effort and determination would be increased by 15-20% instantly. The better attitude and passion would be infectious and permeate throughout the squad
And as soon as we lost/drew a game the media would destroy him for it.
Also can't see the FA standing for having their adverts star players dropped.
Just heard on the news that Capello was in the supermarket and saw an old lady struggling with her shopping. He said "can you manage dear?" She replied "No way. You got yourself in this mess don't ask me to sort it out!"
[quote][cite]Posted By: LenGlover[/cite]Just heard on the news that Capello was in the supermarket and saw an old lady struggling with her shopping. He said "can you manage dear?" She replied "No way. You got yourself in this mess don't ask me to sort it out!"[/quote]
Was it John Terry's mum on a shop lifting expedition?
[cite]Posted By: queensland_addick[/cite]You have to build your team around a nucleus of the right type of character. All successful teams have that. Curbs was a master of unearthing players that not only had a great attitude but that complimented each others styles. Players like Kinsella, Brown, Robinson, Keily. Not world beaters by any means, but on their day good enough to stuff the Gunners on their own turf.
It's something that I, and many others underestimated about his managerial abilities at the time. I maintain that he would have done far better as England manager than most of us could imagine. Dawson would be in for Terry, Parker would be in for Lampard and Bent would be upfront. Effort and determination would be increased by 15-20% instantly. The better attitude and passion would be infectious and permeate throughout the squad. It's not just about the quality of the players, it's about playing as a team. New Zealand proved that against Italy.
Yes, that's pretty much what i've 'always' thought about picking a team Queensland.
It's not neccessarily about picking the best 11 players but picking the best 11 that play together...now that's the trick. I'd say 'every time' that Jimmy Greaves was far and away a better striker than Geoff Hurst (not much argument about that really)...but who was it that got the nod....poor old Jimmy, he was shattered (as were legions of Jimmy Greaves fans) but that sly old fox Ramsey stood there in front of the media, poker faced, no histrionics or explaination and cool as a cucumber dropped the bombshell........the rest is history.
From that moment on I and a generation learned something that I for one will never forget.
These players are provng they are more like boys than men.
You're away with a bunch of lads for a few weeks doing something I have always paid to do and something I would probably cut off a limb to do, and you manage to get bored?
Saying that, I thought all he said about Joe Cole was that he liked him and he can change games. I couldn't imagine him saying he thought he was cack!
Robert Green, David James, Joe Hart, Carragher, Lampard, Gerrard, Crouch, Heskey and Gareth Barry all come across of having a good jib but the rest, like I said way before the tournament I find it difficult to get behind. Johnson, Cole, Ferdinand, Terry, Rooney, Lennon, Wright-Phillips et al I actually dislike. I don't think I could ever say that about the national team before. Maybe I'm just too cynical!
I hope we go through, I'm a patriotic Englishman but I dearly wish the players representing me wouldn't make me feel so disillusioned.
[cite]Posted By: Ormiston Addick[/cite]Lampard doesn't play well for England because he is surrounded by far better players in his club side....
It is absolutely NOT a question of a lack of commitment, its a complete lack of collective technique compared to our continental cousins.
In short, they play to keep possession and then score goals whereas England try and play the killer pass as early as possible and give the ball away.
We don't have a play-maker, both Gerrard and Lampard are goal-scoring midfielders who want to get on the end of things.
Our only playmaker is Carrick and he can't even get in the United team, this is why Capello tried to bring Scholes back into the side.
Not sure about the point about Lampard's ability. I've seen him play some terrific stuff for Chelski, and it's not like the foreign players repeatedly kick the ball in the net for him.
But otherwise, it's refreshing to see a post actually about footballing reasons being the cause of footballing results. My post wasn't aimed at you per se, but all this rubbish that keeps cropping up on this forum that England played poorly because Glen Johnson stole a toilet seat from B&Q or because Terry's image rights are on a chocolate bar.
Lampard's Chelsea team-mates don't "kick the ball in the net for him" but the likes of Drogba, Anelka, Kalou, Malouda and Deco provide him with far superior service than his England colleagues.
As a result, Lampard is able to get in the box and finish off crosses - something he is excellent at doing - or hold back and wait for lay-offs from the likes of Drogba.
In that setting he is a fantastic player but for England he basically has to play as an orthodox box-to-box player and that is not his game at all.
As for Gerrard, there is no denying his dynamism which enables him to score great goals and pick out the occasional exceptional pass but he is nowhere near being a ball-player in the proper meaning of the term.
The last genuine play-maker we had was Gascoigne, although Scholes would have been up there if he had played for longer under Hoddle.
You very briefly touched upon what I think the main reason for Lampard's differing performance levels between England & Chelsea....not the ability of players around him, but the system he is utilised in.
For Chelsea generally play 1 up top, 2 wide and 2 central holding players (2 of Ballack/Mikel/Essien) with Lampard given licence to press forward. He generally gets involved in games in the final 3rd, one touch and shoot or one touch and unlock the defence with a pass. He isn't as you correctly state a box to box player who collects it from the defence and dictates the play. He doesn't do that for Chelsea. But that's the role he is given in the England team.
He is effective for Chelsea, scoring countless goals and many assists, because he is heavily involved in the game in the areas he excels in.
For England he is less effective because he has to play a different game and plays even deeper, unable to collect the ball as often in the final 1/3 and do things with the ball. If England wish to see the best of Lampard they need to reflect the system he is best in, which could mean Barry & Carrick 'holding' with Milner and Cole/Lennon out wide supporting Rooney as a central striker. That allows Lampard to play as he would for Chelsea and spend more time where he is best.
But then the problem is that Rooney isn't Drogba, so it's back to the drawing board...
Can I take the playing part back a step further - all of our 'international footballers' have been coached since they were kids - anyone showing any sign of individual skill is frowned upon and they are 'taught the right way to play team football' - the creativity is lost at an early age and we end up with what we have today, robots! The coaching system is an absolute joke - it is killing the kids creativity even before they get to play at club level. I am normally the optomist and when England qualify for a major international competition, I find it a bonus! It's a shame, but I won't see the England football team win anything in my lifeime, until the fundamentals are changed - FA, coaching system etc.. Where is the next Stan Bowles, Rodney Marsh, Alan Hudson, Tony Currie, Gazza coming from ? For the time being, RIP England.
To be fair, I've heard this argument about kids having individuality coached out of them and I don't think it's strictly true.
Rooney is different to the norm, Joe Cole too. There are others but football as a whole is a more cautious game at the top level so sides can't accomodiate many individuals. They tend to build sides round them, and England have maybe a few too many options to build around if that makes sense.
Do you set the team up to get the best out of Lampard, or Gerrard or Rooney? Because you can't get the best out of all three at the same time!
[cite]Posted By: Curb_It[/cite]Lol... no.
No that doesnt work for me or any woman I would imagine. We dont like Speedos unless youre an olympic swimmer.
Well that does surprise me....just goes toshow us guys have no idea what you girls like!
Those questioning Lampard's ability and that he only performs for Chelsea because he is surrounded by better players need to actually think about it. He's been the focal point of Chelsea for years under numerous different managers. Who was the first player Mourinho tried to take with him to Inter? Yes Lampard. If he's good enough for Mourinho then i don't think the opinion of a few on here counts for very much.
Also agree about picking the best team and not necessarily the best players. Spain leave out Fabregas because he doesn't fit their system even though he's a far better player than the likes of Busquets. If that was us, we'd try to squeeze him into the side somewhere out of position on the wing.
[cite]Posted By: Chris_from_Sidcup[/cite]Those questioning Lampard's ability and that he only performs for Chelsea because he is surrounded by better players need to actually think about it. He's been the focal point of Chelsea for years under numerous different managers. Who was the first player Mourinho tried to take with him to Inter? Yes Lampard. If he's good enough for Mourinho then i don't think the opinion of a few on here counts for very much.
Also agree about picking the best team and not necessarily the best players. Spain leave out Fabregas because he doesn't fit their system even though he's a far better player than the likes of Busquets. If that was us, we'd try to squeeze him into the side somewhere out of position on the wing.
You mean Fabregas does fit Spain's system....he just isn't as good as Iniesta or Xavi nor is he as good a defensive player as Busquets.
But you're right...we would squeeze him in anywhere to the detriment of the shape & function of the team.
I work on the rigs here in western Australia, and have been onboard some facilities up to 5 weeks at a time.
No beer, no pool, (and no, ya cant swim in the ocean, unless ya feel like being shark bait!)
it's shared accomadation, some rigs are 4 men to a room that small you would not want to put ya dog in it.
Some rigs have communial shower and toilet blocks.
If you forget to take a book or ya laptop, stiff titties, there's no library or blockbuster movie store to get entertainment from.
No where to go for a walk and get away from it all, sometimes no t.v coverage due to the rig moving location, and phones not working so no contact with family, wives, girlfriends, kids etc.
Yet morale is generally very good, the boys have a great attitude, work very hard, 12 hour days minimum, EVERY day for the duration of the swing.
This work is done in a highly dangerous (see"deepwater horizon disaster") enviroment, with the risk of death quite relevant and in the forefront in the thoughts and tasks we perform. And i'm not laying it on thick here, believe me the risks are great.
The indusrty remains a bit of an old school attitude from management, "do the f'ing job or else ya prick" kind of man management. No " how are you feeling today, can i help in anyway?" discussions.
We know our job, we dont piss and moan, and take pride in what we do.
[cite]Posted By: Chris_from_Sidcup[/cite]Those questioning Lampard's ability and that he only performs for Chelsea because he is surrounded by better players need to actually think about it. He's been the focal point of Chelsea for years under numerous different managers. Who was the first player Mourinho tried to take with him to Inter? Yes Lampard. If he's good enough for Mourinho then i don't think the opinion of a few on here counts for very much.
Also agree about picking the best team and not necessarily the best players. Spain leave out Fabregas because he doesn't fit their system even though he's a far better player than the likes of Busquets. If that was us, we'd try to squeeze him into the side somewhere out of position on the wing.
You mean Fabregas does fit Spain's system....he just isn't as good as Iniesta or Xavi nor is he as good a defensive player as Busquets.
But you're right...we would squeeze him in anywhere to the detriment of the shape & function of the team.
Iniesta was injured the other night and Fabregas still didn't start.
I work on the rigs here in western Australia, and have been onboard some facilities up to 5 weeks at a time.
No beer, no pool, (and no, ya cant swim in the ocean, unless ya feel like being shark bait!)
it's shared accomadation, some rigs are 4 men to a room that small you would not want to put ya dog in it.
Some rigs have communial shower and toilet blocks.
If you forget to take a book or ya laptop, stiff titties, there's no library or blockbuster movie store to get entertainment from.
No where to go for a walk and get away from it all, sometimes no t.v coverage due to the rig moving location, and phones not working so no contact with family, wives, girlfriends, kids etc.
Yet morale is generally very good, the boys have a great attitude, work very hard, 12 hour days minimum, EVERY day for the duration of the swing.
This work is done in a highly dangerous (see"deepwater horizon disaster") enviroment, with the risk of death quite relevant and in the forefront in the thoughts and tasks we perform. And i'm not laying it on thick here, believe me the risks are great.
The indusrty remains a bit of an old school attitude from management, "do the f'ing job or else ya prick" kind of man management. No " how are you feeling today, can i help in anyway?" discussions.
We know our job, we dont piss and moan, and take pride in what we do.
Shame the england players dont.......
That would account for one post in three years ; - )
I work on the rigs here in western Australia, and have been onboard some facilities up to 5 weeks at a time.
No beer, no pool, (and no, ya cant swim in the ocean, unless ya feel like being shark bait!)
it's shared accomadation, some rigs are 4 men to a room that small you would not want to put ya dog in it.
Some rigs have communial shower and toilet blocks.
If you forget to take a book or ya laptop, stiff titties, there's no library or blockbuster movie store to get entertainment from.
No where to go for a walk and get away from it all, sometimes no t.v coverage due to the rig moving location, and phones not working so no contact with family, wives, girlfriends, kids etc.
Yet morale is generally very good, the boys have a great attitude, work very hard, 12 hour days minimum, EVERY day for the duration of the swing.
This work is done in a highly dangerous (see"deepwater horizon disaster") enviroment, with the risk of death quite relevant and in the forefront in the thoughts and tasks we perform. And i'm not laying it on thick here, believe me the risks are great.
The indusrty remains a bit of an old school attitude from management, "do the f'ing job or else ya prick" kind of man management. No " how are you feeling today, can i help in anyway?" discussions.
We know our job, we dont piss and moan, and take pride in what we do.
Shame the england players dont.......
Ermmm....if we lose this afternoon, you could always think about taking a swim!
Comments
Capello is the best England manager since Bobby Robson/Alf Ramsey.
John Terry's comments re Joe Cole were just as Capello said, disrespectful to the other players in the squad. He is, indeed, scum. Ashley Cole not much better but at least he can play.
Whatever the outcome of this World Cup, and it will certainly not be England getting any further than the semis, at best, Capello should have a major clear out and start planning for the next World Cup. The older players are not just short of talent but they have the wrong attitude. Younger players may not be much better talent-wise, but they will be more open-minded and with the potential to develop the right behaviours and attitude.
Lampard's Chelsea team-mates don't "kick the ball in the net for him" but the likes of Drogba, Anelka, Kalou, Malouda and Deco provide him with far superior service than his England colleagues.
As a result, Lampard is able to get in the box and finish off crosses - something he is excellent at doing - or hold back and wait for lay-offs from the likes of Drogba.
In that setting he is a fantastic player but for England he basically has to play as an orthodox box-to-box player and that is not his game at all.
As for Gerrard, there is no denying his dynamism which enables him to score great goals and pick out the occasional exceptional pass but he is nowhere near being a ball-player in the proper meaning of the term.
The last genuine play-maker we had was Gascoigne, although Scholes would have been up there if he had played for longer under Hoddle.
You're certainly saving me a lot of typing time : - )
Perhaps an unknown son from that weekend in Brighton 20 plus years ago?
Does he appreciate buttoned garments for the upper body?
:-)
I'll let Sussex answer that for me. : - )
Agree they earn too much but I fancy they very much care...though in truth, they sometimes have a funny way of showing it....either as individuals or collectively.
It's something that I, and many others underestimated about his managerial abilities at the time. I maintain that he would have done far better as England manager than most of us could imagine. Dawson would be in for Terry, Parker would be in for Lampard and Bent would be upfront. Effort and determination would be increased by 15-20% instantly. The better attitude and passion would be infectious and permeate throughout the squad. It's not just about the quality of the players, it's about playing as a team. New Zealand proved that against Italy.
And as soon as we lost/drew a game the media would destroy him for it.
Also can't see the FA standing for having their adverts star players dropped.
Was it John Terry's mum on a shop lifting expedition?
thats why they are such a pointless entity....
Yes, that's pretty much what i've 'always' thought about picking a team Queensland.
It's not neccessarily about picking the best 11 players but picking the best 11 that play together...now that's the trick. I'd say 'every time' that Jimmy Greaves was far and away a better striker than Geoff Hurst (not much argument about that really)...but who was it that got the nod....poor old Jimmy, he was shattered (as were legions of Jimmy Greaves fans) but that sly old fox Ramsey stood there in front of the media, poker faced, no histrionics or explaination and cool as a cucumber dropped the bombshell........the rest is history.
From that moment on I and a generation learned something that I for one will never forget.
forget the past forget the feeling of disencharntment over the last 5 days
AND COME ON ENGLAND YOU CAN YOU MUST YOU WILL WIN THIS GAME
You're away with a bunch of lads for a few weeks doing something I have always paid to do and something I would probably cut off a limb to do, and you manage to get bored?
Saying that, I thought all he said about Joe Cole was that he liked him and he can change games. I couldn't imagine him saying he thought he was cack!
Robert Green, David James, Joe Hart, Carragher, Lampard, Gerrard, Crouch, Heskey and Gareth Barry all come across of having a good jib but the rest, like I said way before the tournament I find it difficult to get behind. Johnson, Cole, Ferdinand, Terry, Rooney, Lennon, Wright-Phillips et al I actually dislike. I don't think I could ever say that about the national team before. Maybe I'm just too cynical!
I hope we go through, I'm a patriotic Englishman but I dearly wish the players representing me wouldn't make me feel so disillusioned.
You very briefly touched upon what I think the main reason for Lampard's differing performance levels between England & Chelsea....not the ability of players around him, but the system he is utilised in.
For Chelsea generally play 1 up top, 2 wide and 2 central holding players (2 of Ballack/Mikel/Essien) with Lampard given licence to press forward. He generally gets involved in games in the final 3rd, one touch and shoot or one touch and unlock the defence with a pass. He isn't as you correctly state a box to box player who collects it from the defence and dictates the play. He doesn't do that for Chelsea. But that's the role he is given in the England team.
He is effective for Chelsea, scoring countless goals and many assists, because he is heavily involved in the game in the areas he excels in.
For England he is less effective because he has to play a different game and plays even deeper, unable to collect the ball as often in the final 1/3 and do things with the ball. If England wish to see the best of Lampard they need to reflect the system he is best in, which could mean Barry & Carrick 'holding' with Milner and Cole/Lennon out wide supporting Rooney as a central striker. That allows Lampard to play as he would for Chelsea and spend more time where he is best.
But then the problem is that Rooney isn't Drogba, so it's back to the drawing board...
all of our 'international footballers' have been coached since they were kids - anyone showing any sign of individual skill is frowned upon and they are 'taught the right way to play team football' - the creativity is lost at an early age and we end up with what we have today, robots!
The coaching system is an absolute joke - it is killing the kids creativity even before they get to play at club level.
I am normally the optomist and when England qualify for a major international competition, I find it a bonus!
It's a shame, but I won't see the England football team win anything in my lifeime, until the fundamentals are changed - FA, coaching system etc..
Where is the next Stan Bowles, Rodney Marsh, Alan Hudson, Tony Currie, Gazza coming from ? For the time being, RIP England.
Rooney is different to the norm, Joe Cole too. There are others but football as a whole is a more cautious game at the top level so sides can't accomodiate many individuals. They tend to build sides round them, and England have maybe a few too many options to build around if that makes sense.
Do you set the team up to get the best out of Lampard, or Gerrard or Rooney? Because you can't get the best out of all three at the same time!
No that doesnt work for me or any woman I would imagine. We dont like Speedos unless youre an olympic swimmer.
Well that does surprise me....just goes toshow us guys have no idea what you girls like!
no wonder the players dont respect him.
Also agree about picking the best team and not necessarily the best players. Spain leave out Fabregas because he doesn't fit their system even though he's a far better player than the likes of Busquets. If that was us, we'd try to squeeze him into the side somewhere out of position on the wing.
You mean Fabregas does fit Spain's system....he just isn't as good as Iniesta or Xavi nor is he as good a defensive player as Busquets.
But you're right...we would squeeze him in anywhere to the detriment of the shape & function of the team.
I work on the rigs here in western Australia, and have been onboard some facilities up to 5 weeks at a time.
No beer, no pool, (and no, ya cant swim in the ocean, unless ya feel like being shark bait!)
it's shared accomadation, some rigs are 4 men to a room that small you would not want to put ya dog in it.
Some rigs have communial shower and toilet blocks.
If you forget to take a book or ya laptop, stiff titties, there's no library or blockbuster movie store to get entertainment from.
No where to go for a walk and get away from it all, sometimes no t.v coverage due to the rig moving location, and phones not working so no contact with family, wives, girlfriends, kids etc.
Yet morale is generally very good, the boys have a great attitude, work very hard, 12 hour days minimum, EVERY day for the duration of the swing.
This work is done in a highly dangerous (see"deepwater horizon disaster") enviroment, with the risk of death quite relevant and in the forefront in the thoughts and tasks we perform. And i'm not laying it on thick here, believe me the risks are great.
The indusrty remains a bit of an old school attitude from management, "do the f'ing job or else ya prick" kind of man management. No " how are you feeling today, can i help in anyway?" discussions.
We know our job, we dont piss and moan, and take pride in what we do.
Shame the england players dont.......
Iniesta was injured the other night and Fabregas still didn't start.
That would account for one post in three years ; - )
Welcome to the board, belatedly.
Ermmm....if we lose this afternoon, you could always think about taking a swim!