I was working in Tunbridge Wells with another engineer.
When we heard on the radio a plane had flown into the world trade centre I firstly didn't know what the world trade centre was and secondly assumed the plane would have been a Cessna or something like that.
Now this is an amusing story but please don't think I'm making light of what happened. My colleague as it turned out was even less educated on buildings in the US than I was and when, on the way home,we heard on the radio that an aircraft had flown into the Pentagon he went white as a ghost (He was a six foot four west Indian man) and phoned his missus shrieking down the phone asking if she was ok. She was fine, she worked in H Samuels in the Pentagon shopping centre in Chatham.
I've since visited ground zero and it was a very humbling experience, I won't ever forget watching people jumping from the buildings rather than being burnt alive and the whole thing seemed then and now like we've all imagined it.
I'm very cautious given the volume of information available now about how this whole nightmare happened. I don't trust governments and regularly get called a conspiracy theorist when I discuss this with people. This is not to say I don't feel painfully sorry for all of the people affected 16 years ago and will remain so now. It means I don't trust those skulking about who are really pulling strings and running things
I'm very cautious given the volume of information available now about how this whole nightmare happened. I don't trust governments and regularly get called a conspiracy theorist when I discuss this with people. This is not to say I don't feel painfully sorry for all of the people affected 16 years ago and will remain so now. It means I don't trust those skulking about who are really pulling strings and running things
Careful mate. I just got called an idiot for suggesting such a thing.
I'm very cautious given the volume of information available now about how this whole nightmare happened. I don't trust governments and regularly get called a conspiracy theorist when I discuss this with people. This is not to say I don't feel painfully sorry for all of the people affected 16 years ago and will remain so now. It means I don't trust those skulking about who are really pulling strings and running things
Careful mate. I just got called an idiot for suggesting such a thing.
Because all of the evidence that points to a government conspiracy is extremely flimsy at best and points to fundamental misunderstanding of physics and skewing of facts.
I'm very cautious given the volume of information available now about how this whole nightmare happened. I don't trust governments and regularly get called a conspiracy theorist when I discuss this with people. This is not to say I don't feel painfully sorry for all of the people affected 16 years ago and will remain so now. It means I don't trust those skulking about who are really pulling strings and running things
Careful mate. I just got called an idiot for suggesting such a thing.
Because all of the evidence that points to a government conspiracy is extremely flimsy at best and points to fundamental misunderstanding of physics and skewing of facts.
It's not my place to say you are wrong, me and the chap above just have different views to you and a lot of others. Doesn't mean to say we care any less for the people affected, regardless of how the event happened they remain the victims
I've often thought it'd be interesting to have a conspiracy theories thread. I think I've talked about how I have a real interest in the JFK assassination. I've also read/watched a fair amount around the 9/11 conspiracy theories, which are interesting albeit for me, not entirely convincing.
As an over-arching theme I think a lot conspiracies and alternative narratives are sort of a modern day myth telling, the remnants of traditions where we didn't have TV and radio to record events.
Anyway, I digress and this is another topic for another time.
To those who lost people on 9/11, I'm truly sorry. It's awful. No one should ever have to worry about dying just going to work.
I'm very cautious given the volume of information available now about how this whole nightmare happened. I don't trust governments and regularly get called a conspiracy theorist when I discuss this with people. This is not to say I don't feel painfully sorry for all of the people affected 16 years ago and will remain so now. It means I don't trust those skulking about who are really pulling strings and running things
Careful mate. I just got called an idiot for suggesting such a thing.
Because all of the evidence that points to a government conspiracy is extremely flimsy at best and points to fundamental misunderstanding of physics and skewing of facts.
It's not my place to say you are wrong, me and the chap above just have different views to you and a lot of others. Doesn't mean to say we care any less for the people affected, regardless of how the event happened they remain the victims
Well, scientific facts cannot be wrong. So all of the 9/11 theories I've ever read are fundamentally wrong. End of.
I'd argue 9/11 conspiracy theories have given rise to the "post truth" world, where facts are apparently secondary to opinion.
I'm very cautious given the volume of information available now about how this whole nightmare happened. I don't trust governments and regularly get called a conspiracy theorist when I discuss this with people. This is not to say I don't feel painfully sorry for all of the people affected 16 years ago and will remain so now. It means I don't trust those skulking about who are really pulling strings and running things
Careful mate. I just got called an idiot for suggesting such a thing.
Because all of the evidence that points to a government conspiracy is extremely flimsy at best and points to fundamental misunderstanding of physics and skewing of facts.
It's not my place to say you are wrong, me and the chap above just have different views to you and a lot of others. Doesn't mean to say we care any less for the people affected, regardless of how the event happened they remain the victims
Well, scientific facts cannot be wrong. So all of the 9/11 theories I've ever read are fundamentally wrong. End of.
I'd argue 9/11 conspiracy theories have given rise to the "post truth" world, where facts are apparently secondary to opinion.
1) Is Pepe the Frog your avatar? 2) I'd have it the other way around, that increased skepticism towards our institutions (media, Government, etc) are what allow certain conspiracy theories to rise and become prominent. Also, in terms of the importance of conspiracy theories and how they impact our politics, I think the 9/11 "Truther Movement" lags far behind something like birthirism. 3) For all the "Loose Change" and Alex Jones' and people who tell good stories that I think have factual holes or lack context, there are some smart people, architects, engineers, etc. who take issue with some of the science. I'm not wholly convinced by their argument, but I think in the interest of fairness it's worth pointing it out.
Like I said I think a conspiracy theories thread would be interesting, and I'll happily start one after I get back from a jog, or obviously someone else can start one. But given there are people on here that lost people they knew, and this thread is largely for reflections, I say we take this debate elsewhere.
A lot of time has passed since the tragic, compelling and world-changing events of 11 September 2001. And yet they still seem absolutely fresh in the memory. Can it really be seventeen years ago?
It's worth looking back to see what else was happening in the world outside the geopolitical sphere to put it in historical perspective.
Charlton were above Blackburn, Liverpool, West Ham, Leicester, Southampton and Middlesbrough in the Premiership. And no-one would have guessed which of those would go on to be champions first.
England had just lost yet another Ashes series, with Wisden asking the question "will deflated England ever be equipped to challenge the Baggy Green brigade seriously?" Well, yes. Given that England has won most of the Ashes series since that date and hasn't lost a home series in that time.
Tony Blair was Prime Minister, leader of a united Labour party and had just won a second general election and a majority of 160. With one more election win to follow, this is probably what Theresa May had in mind when she repeated the phrase "strong and stable", sixteen years later. William Hague and Charles Kennedy were the losing leaders. Since then, no party has been elected with a majority in three figures. Labour has lost Blair, Brown and Miliband as leaders; the Tories have lost Hague, Howard and Cameron.
A lot of time has passed. But it's still very fresh in the memory.
The Looming Tower is a very good (and probably very accurate) mini series about the rivalry between CIA and FBI considering information sharing leading up to 9/11. CIA and some of the senior officials at the White House including Rice were definitely responsible for this tragedy which could've been prevented.
Went to New York for the first time in June. The 9/11 museum at Ground Zero is an incredible place - can't put into words how moving it is, but at the same time brilliantly done. Spent about 4 hours going round it until they chucked us out at closing time, and that still wasn't long enough.
have visited the 9/11 memorial last October v peaceful place - the only thing i found odd/sick is people getting selfies at it, the bit that moved me was the placing of a white flower on whatever victims birthday it is.
have visited the 9/11 memorial last October v peaceful place - the only thing i found odd/sick is people getting selfies at it, the bit that moved me was the placing of a white flower on whatever victims birthday it is.
I thought the same when I went mate. Can understand people taking photographs but smiley selfies seemed very inappropriate. Extremely eerie place yet incredible at the same time. Still doesn't seem real and simply terrible that it is.
have visited the 9/11 memorial last October v peaceful place - the only thing i found odd/sick is people getting selfies at it, the bit that moved me was the placing of a white flower on whatever victims birthday it is.
I thought the same when I went mate. Can understand people taking photographs but smiley selfies seemed very inappropriate. Extremely eerie place yet incredible at the same time. Still doesn't seem real and simply terrible that it is.
the only thing that i thought was worse than this was a gift shop at the museum, like why would you need a tshirt commemorating a mass murder.
have visited the 9/11 memorial last October v peaceful place - the only thing i found odd/sick is people getting selfies at it, the bit that moved me was the placing of a white flower on whatever victims birthday it is.
I thought the same when I went mate. Can understand people taking photographs but smiley selfies seemed very inappropriate. Extremely eerie place yet incredible at the same time. Still doesn't seem real and simply terrible that it is.
the only thing that i thought was worse than this was a gift shop at the museum, like why would you need a tshirt commemorating a mass murder.
have visited the 9/11 memorial last October v peaceful place - the only thing i found odd/sick is people getting selfies at it, the bit that moved me was the placing of a white flower on whatever victims birthday it is.
I thought the same when I went mate. Can understand people taking photographs but smiley selfies seemed very inappropriate. Extremely eerie place yet incredible at the same time. Still doesn't seem real and simply terrible that it is.
Came across the same thing at Auschwitz.
A group of idiotic Japanese tourists having their photo taken whilst grinning & doing that stupid V thing with their fingers, at the wall where hundreds of inmates were shot.
I was in New Jersey, just across from the WTC, my enduring memory is of all of the ambulances heading up the New Jersey Turnpike as I was heading home. A long and silent procession of flashing lights, the road was empty otherwise, every little township and municipality was sending their ambulances.
have visited the 9/11 memorial last October v peaceful place - the only thing i found odd/sick is people getting selfies at it, the bit that moved me was the placing of a white flower on whatever victims birthday it is.
I thought the same when I went mate. Can understand people taking photographs but smiley selfies seemed very inappropriate. Extremely eerie place yet incredible at the same time. Still doesn't seem real and simply terrible that it is.
the only thing that i thought was worse than this was a gift shop at the museum, like why would you need a tshirt commemorating a mass murder.
Sounds very tasteless. Quick thought though; I wonder where the money was ending up?
Remember it so well & vividly, terrible TV pictures & the documentaries that follwed are must see TV with the incredible pictures & stories that come out from that day of both human suffering & heroic dignity. The New York Firefighters were immensively brave that day & many perished, unfortunately & still are due to respirtory associated diseases.
I was in primary school, can remember vaguely knowing something big had gone on just from the reaction of the teachers and adults about, then my mum rushed me out of school at the end of the day to watch it on the news at home.
With shame I admit I upset my sister because I wanted to change the channel when she was watching the news so I could watch CBBC... then I got upset because CBBC wasn't on because everyone was showing the news... I was only little in my defence.
I remember the day vividly. I was working at a publishing company in Millbank tower. I had a magazine called Law in Business going to print the next day and it was an absolute bastard of a job with 2 Pantone colours. I had to check 36pp of 6C film against the cromalins, get them back to the repro house and off to the printer pronto, so I had my head buried in those while everyone else was huddled round computers, tv’s and the radio trying to work out what the fuck had happened! I can honestly say that it kinda passed me by, until I’d finished work and saw the incredible scenes on the news. Absolutely mental.
have visited the 9/11 memorial last October v peaceful place - the only thing i found odd/sick is people getting selfies at it, the bit that moved me was the placing of a white flower on whatever victims birthday it is.
I thought the same when I went mate. Can understand people taking photographs but smiley selfies seemed very inappropriate. Extremely eerie place yet incredible at the same time. Still doesn't seem real and simply terrible that it is.
the only thing that i thought was worse than this was a gift shop at the museum, like why would you need a tshirt commemorating a mass murder.
When to the Famine museum in Ireland, at the and of the tour is a cafe.
have visited the 9/11 memorial last October v peaceful place - the only thing i found odd/sick is people getting selfies at it, the bit that moved me was the placing of a white flower on whatever victims birthday it is.
I thought the same when I went mate. Can understand people taking photographs but smiley selfies seemed very inappropriate. Extremely eerie place yet incredible at the same time. Still doesn't seem real and simply terrible that it is.
Came across the same thing at Auschwitz.
A group of idiotic Japanese tourists having their photo taken whilst grinning & doing that stupid V thing with their fingers, at the wall where hundreds of inmates were shot.
Are you sure they weren't Chinese ? - the Japanese are usually acutely aware of the gravity of Auchwitz, the Chinese less so. Recently returned from there and stunned that 2 million now visit each year - so many selfies being taken, as you say.
The Looming Tower is a very good (and probably very accurate) mini series about the rivalry between CIA and FBI considering information sharing leading up to 9/11. CIA and some of the senior officials at the White House including Rice were definitely responsible for this tragedy which could've been prevented.
I'm very cautious given the volume of information available now about how this whole nightmare happened. I don't trust governments and regularly get called a conspiracy theorist when I discuss this with people. This is not to say I don't feel painfully sorry for all of the people affected 16 years ago and will remain so now. It means I don't trust those skulking about who are really pulling strings and running things
Careful mate. I just got called an idiot for suggesting such a thing.
Because all of the evidence that points to a government conspiracy is extremely flimsy at best and points to fundamental misunderstanding of physics and skewing of facts.
It's not my place to say you are wrong, me and the chap above just have different views to you and a lot of others. Doesn't mean to say we care any less for the people affected, regardless of how the event happened they remain the victims
Whilst I see your point, giving credence to anything other than "it was a bunch of terrorists" when there is no credible evidence to the contrary, is besmirching the memory of those who lost their lives.
The Looming Tower is a very good (and probably very accurate) mini series about the rivalry between CIA and FBI considering information sharing leading up to 9/11. CIA and some of the senior officials at the White House including Rice were definitely responsible for this tragedy which could've been prevented.
I would not say they were responsible for the tragedy, that would be the guys who flew the planes. Rice etc. may be guilty of lack of competence but that is not the same thing. It's like the people who had access to the information coming from the Americans' cracking of the Japanese code (Purple, if I remember correctly) before Pearl Harbor. That they didn't act properly on the information they had does not make them responsible for the attack, that can be laid squarely at the feet of Tojo and his warmongers.
have visited the 9/11 memorial last October v peaceful place - the only thing i found odd/sick is people getting selfies at it, the bit that moved me was the placing of a white flower on whatever victims birthday it is.
I thought the same when I went mate. Can understand people taking photographs but smiley selfies seemed very inappropriate. Extremely eerie place yet incredible at the same time. Still doesn't seem real and simply terrible that it is.
Came across the same thing at Auschwitz.
A group of idiotic Japanese tourists having their photo taken whilst grinning & doing that stupid V thing with their fingers, at the wall where hundreds of inmates were shot.
Are you sure they weren't Chinese ? - the Japanese are usually acutely aware of the gravity of Auchwitz, the Chinese less so. Recently returned from there and stunned that 2 million now visit each year - so many selfies being taken, as you say.
working for an american corporate bank on the 16th floor at Canary Wharf and watching it all unfold on TV screens whilst keeping a watch on the sky ...
Comments
When we heard on the radio a plane had flown into the world trade centre I firstly didn't know what the world trade centre was and secondly assumed the plane would have been a Cessna or something like that.
Now this is an amusing story but please don't think I'm making light of what happened. My colleague as it turned out was even less educated on buildings in the US than I was and when, on the way home,we heard on the radio that an aircraft had flown into the Pentagon he went white as a ghost (He was a six foot four west Indian man) and phoned his missus shrieking down the phone asking if she was ok. She was fine, she worked in H Samuels in the Pentagon shopping centre in Chatham.
I've since visited ground zero and it was a very humbling experience, I won't ever forget watching people jumping from the buildings rather than being burnt alive and the whole thing seemed then and now like we've all imagined it.
I'm very cautious given the volume of information available now about how this whole nightmare happened. I don't trust governments and regularly get called a conspiracy theorist when I discuss this with people. This is not to say I don't feel painfully sorry for all of the people affected 16 years ago and will remain so now. It means I don't trust those skulking about who are really pulling strings and running things
As an over-arching theme I think a lot conspiracies and alternative narratives are sort of a modern day myth telling, the remnants of traditions where we didn't have TV and radio to record events.
Anyway, I digress and this is another topic for another time.
To those who lost people on 9/11, I'm truly sorry. It's awful. No one should ever have to worry about dying just going to work.
I'd argue 9/11 conspiracy theories have given rise to the "post truth" world, where facts are apparently secondary to opinion.
2) I'd have it the other way around, that increased skepticism towards our institutions (media, Government, etc) are what allow certain conspiracy theories to rise and become prominent. Also, in terms of the importance of conspiracy theories and how they impact our politics, I think the 9/11 "Truther Movement" lags far behind something like birthirism.
3) For all the "Loose Change" and Alex Jones' and people who tell good stories that I think have factual holes or lack context, there are some smart people, architects, engineers, etc. who take issue with some of the science. I'm not wholly convinced by their argument, but I think in the interest of fairness it's worth pointing it out.
Like I said I think a conspiracy theories thread would be interesting, and I'll happily start one after I get back from a jog, or obviously someone else can start one. But given there are people on here that lost people they knew, and this thread is largely for reflections, I say we take this debate elsewhere.
It's worth looking back to see what else was happening in the world outside the geopolitical sphere to put it in historical perspective.
Charlton were above Blackburn, Liverpool, West Ham, Leicester, Southampton and Middlesbrough in the Premiership. And no-one would have guessed which of those would go on to be champions first.
England had just lost yet another Ashes series, with Wisden asking the question "will deflated England ever be equipped to challenge the Baggy Green brigade seriously?" Well, yes. Given that England has won most of the Ashes series since that date and hasn't lost a home series in that time.
Tony Blair was Prime Minister, leader of a united Labour party and had just won a second general election and a majority of 160. With one more election win to follow, this is probably what Theresa May had in mind when she repeated the phrase "strong and stable", sixteen years later. William Hague and Charles Kennedy were the losing leaders. Since then, no party has been elected with a majority in three figures. Labour has lost Blair, Brown and Miliband as leaders; the Tories have lost Hague, Howard and Cameron.
A lot of time has passed. But it's still very fresh in the memory.
A group of idiotic Japanese tourists having their photo taken whilst grinning & doing that stupid V thing with their fingers, at the wall where hundreds of inmates were shot.
With shame I admit I upset my sister because I wanted to change the channel when she was watching the news so I could watch CBBC... then I got upset because CBBC wasn't on because everyone was showing the news... I was only little in my defence.
Recently returned from there and stunned that 2 million now visit each year - so many selfies being taken, as you say.
I would not say they were responsible for the tragedy, that would be the guys who flew the planes. Rice etc. may be guilty of lack of competence but that is not the same thing. It's like the people who had access to the information coming from the Americans' cracking of the Japanese code (Purple, if I remember correctly) before Pearl Harbor. That they didn't act properly on the information they had does not make them responsible for the attack, that can be laid squarely at the feet of Tojo and his warmongers.
Over 300 fire fighters died.
If that had happened in London it could have been me.
Still brings a lump to my throat.
It’s a fascinating place isn’t it.
You are tight. Been 3 times now, never loses its impact.
There seemed to be many more exhibitions this year.