I’ve now watched the replay over and again and I agree it’s very hard to see what actually happened.
Something clearly causes Savage to fall, but it’s not obvious from the angle I’ve seen whether Racon touched him or whether he simply lost his balance. Racon’s mistake was that he turned his body into the player without making any attempt to play the ball. On the other hand, Savage clearly was going for the ball. Racon obviously didn’t push Savage but it is possible he backed into him causing him to fall. Savage then immediately appealed, suggesting he thought he had been impeded.
I agree entirely that it is not at all clear, but it is far from as obviously wrong as many of the decisions we see week in week out!!!!
Well, I was standing behind the goal, and could not see what it was given for!.
None of the D&R players semmed to appeal, and was left literally open mouthed!. I asked Saga next to me and he was not sure as well!......... like the others there was an air of disbelief. As upsetting as it must be for a manager, Parky should have controlled himself, probably like the rest of us amazed that we went in 1-1 instead of being 3-0 up.
I haven't seen the replay but had a very good view of it from the East Stand. I was worried as soon as Racon lent into the guy whilst he was off the ground and looked straight across at the referee. It was a soft one for sure but a daft challenge to make and the decision was certainly within the zone of acceptability ( if I can put it that way ).
how about the second half when we had a corner and when the ball came across 2 of our players were sprawled out? football isn't a no contact sport, and to give a penalty for that, compared to some of the other decisions, is shocking. i can't believe the amount of penalties we have already given away this season, we have gone from a good footballing side that was too soft to a bruising and ugly side that at times cant pass for toffee
[cite]Posted By: sam3110[/cite]how about the second half when we had a corner and when the ball came across 2 of our players were sprawled out? football isn't a no contact sport, and to give a penalty for that, compared to some of the other decisions, is shocking. i can't believe the amount of penalties we have already given away this season, we have gone from a good footballing side that was too soft to a bruising and ugly side that at times cant pass for toffee
to be fair from what I saw of that Benson ran into Francis and cleaned the both of them up... probably his only meaningful contribution to be honest, apart from his back header to Roberts
From my viewpoint in the north upper on the edge of the family bit, it looked as though Racon was in position under a dropping ball with the sun in his eyes. He didn't move, nor need to. Savage jumped into him, fell over and got very, very lucky. But, I haven't seen it one the box to formulate a second opinion yet ;-)
Mundell F says it for me really. I have not seen the replay yet but Racon leaned into Savage, totally unnecessary. It was a very soft penalty to give away. I don't recall a similar one in our favour. I was peed off with Racon more than the ref. I think the general air of depression set in after that. Lots of shaking heads. The 2nd equalizer just made it worse. At least Racon played his heart out in the 2nd half and redeemed himself by setting up the equalizer. Now he has to play in the same determined manner every week.
It's a soft penalty in any game of football from Premier League down to Sunday League. It's probably a foul in the centre circle so following the laws it should be a penalty in the penalty area so following that logic the referee was brave to give it. Saying that it does seem these decisions are going against us this season, it'd just be nice to have one go for us for once.
You could argue it either way, and i could happily accept the penalty decision, but it comes down to consistancy.
Going by what the Ref was letting Dagenham get away with after tha it wasn't a penalty. The "it's a foul anywhere else on the pitch so it's a penalty" i agree with usually but in this game it doesn't apply because far worse was continually going on that wasn't seen as a foul.
In the refs defence though he often did blow up for fouls.......just gave the decision the wrong way.
I always try to give refs the benefit of the doubt and i certainly don't blame him for the result, but it's games like that where you can only conclude that the ref is either completely incompetent or he was cheating in favour of Dagenham. It went beyond making simple mistakes.
Bizarre, because up 'til the penalty he was having a decent game, but then again there wasn't much for him to do up 'til then i suppose.
looked to me like a 50 50 ball on the replay, you can't give a pen unless absolutely sure, and consistent, for example all the holding etc that we didn't get in our favour - if you're going to be strict about any kind of contact it must be applied elsewhere
I was perfectly positioned to see it and it was never a penalty. Outside of the box some refs may have given a foul - wrongly - but it isn't easy I kinow and refs have to make a choice. The problem is that in the area you have to be 100% sure and any decent ref wouldn't have given that. Of course you get the blazer and sandals and socks brigade who will say in that irritating voice (they always seem to have) that a foul is a foul wherever it is committed. But there is no way a ref worth his salt could give a penalty for that.
The point has been made though, that it shouldn't have cost us. We can't blame the Ref for not being out of site before that and playing so tamely after it.
The Ref was ok. From our view it looked like Racon was a bit clumsy and I wasn't surprised a foul was given. Another time, the ref may well have played on. The penalty did change the nature of the game but that's surely as much Charlton's fault as anyone else's. The linesman who people are whinging about is the fella who refs in our Sunday league. Excellent ref who knows his football.
[cite]Posted By: Simonsen[/cite]Alright Ashtray? You in a paddling pool?!
The Ref was ok. From our view it looked like Racon was a bit clumsy and I wasn't surprised a foul was given. Another time, the ref may well have played on. The penalty did change the nature of the game but that's surely as much Charlton's fault as anyone else's. The linesman who people are whinging about is the fella who refs in our Sunday league. Excellent ref who knows his football.
Doesn't know much about running the f***ing line though, does he?
Mmm....I'd politely suggest he knows a little more than your goodself? I may of course be wrong, as you could be a first-class linesman....in which case I bow to your superior standing in the game.
Not an easy job being a ref - did it once or twice in emergencies and was amazed how many decisions I wasn't sure about. You have to give something so sometimes it's a 50-50 guess. Plus everybody slagging you off and you really think you are having a stinker - then they say good game ref!!!! But whilst understanding that it is difficult, I do think I can spot the refs who have not played the game - Saturday's was one of them. If you ref a professional game you have to be better than he was. For most of teh game he was fine but that decision was shocking. But the Liverpool v Sunderland one was shocking too. I think you have to have a certain undertsanding that some refs just don't have. Let's face it, a lot of people who choose to be refs come from a certain group of people. I'll say no more but most will know what I mean.
[quote][cite]Posted By: MuttleyCAFC[/cite]Not an easy job being a ref - did it once or twice in emergencies and was amazed how many decisions I wasn't sure about.... Let's face it, a lot of people who choose to be refs come from a certain group of people. I'll say no more but most will know what I mean.[/quote]
What about not having a ref at all mate? After all refs are a 'certain group of people', and maybe they wouldn't meet with your approval. Forget TV technology and the like, John Still should have half-heartedly reffed the game lurking in one corner for the first half, and Phil Parkinson the second half. What about the players sorting the decisions out themselves? Save on officials fees, and worries about their uselessness. Or the Captain of each team has the whistle for a half each, and we 'ref as we go'.
I totally disagree with the fallacy that if a ref hasn't played football he doesn't understand the game. It wrankles with me quite a bit actually as I've had that aimed at me a couple of times in my 7.5 years of officiating. I look at it from the managerial point of view. Do managers have to have reached the peak of playing to be a decent manager? No, look at Wenger he played at a modest level but is one of the all time great Premier League managers. There was a thing a few years ago when it was touted that ex-players should be referees. That one went by the way side as it would have made no difference whatsoever. A referee has to make unpopular decisions. We cannot please everyone and when I do a game I do my best to explain a decision but realise it will piss one side off and leave the other very happy. Referees at football league level have to commit a hell of a lot of their spare time (and their professional life) to attend games, seminars and training. Sometimes to the point where marriages fall apart. I am not at that level yet I train and do all I can to better myself all this whilst juggling family life and a job. I can only assume how tricky it becomes the higher you go especially when you have to prove to The FA you're training week on week to satisfy them you're fit enough to be at that level. I just think it's sometimes a little easy to criticise.
So what 'certain group of people' do referees come from as I know a far few (including Premier Leage assistant referees) and everyone has a different personality and style of refereeing and take on certain situations. The only consistent thing is the laws which we have to apply. All players are different as are referees. Fair comment?
[cite]Posted By: Spankie[/cite]I totally disagree with the fallacy that if a ref hasn't played football he doesn't understand the game. It wrankles with me quite a bit actually as I've had that aimed at me a couple of times in my 7.5 years of officiating. I look at it from the managerial point of view. Do managers have to have reached the peak of playing to be a decent manager? No, look at Wenger he played at a modest level but is one of the all time great Premier League managers. There was a thing a few years ago when it was touted that ex-players should be referees. That one went by the way side as it would have made no difference whatsoever. A referee has to make unpopular decisions. We cannot please everyone and when I do a game I do my best to explain a decision but realise it will piss one side off and leave the other very happy.
Referees at football league level have to commit a hell of a lot of their spare time (and their professional life) to attend games, seminars and training. Sometimes to the point where marriages fall apart. I am not at that level yet I train and do all I can to better myself all this whilst juggling family life and a job. I can only assume how tricky it becomes the higher you go especially when you have to prove to The FA you're training week on week to satisfy them you're fit enough to be at that level. I just think it's sometimes a little easy to criticise.
So what 'certain group of people' do referees come from as I know a far few (including Premier Leage assistant referees) and everyone has a different personality and style of refereeing and take on certain situations. The only consistent thing is the laws which we have to apply. All players are different as are referees. Fair comment?
I don't think anyone who knows anything about football think it's an easy job and that the people who chose to do it are dedicated. It's difficult and the players certainly don't help matters these days.
The common sense ones amongst us accept that mistakes are going to be made, that's the human element of the game and it's fine and i will usually give refs the benifit of the doubt and stick up for them. However when a ref is as bad as we had on Saturday and it's mistake after mistake that's not acceptable and deserves critisim. It was a pretty easy game for him until the penalty decision and after that he couldn't handle it (either that or he was biased?).
I don't care what anyone else says it was NEVER a penalty. If that was a penalty you'd have about 5 pens to each team every game. (Sticks fingers in ears as not listening).
Definitely didn't think it was a penalty and was laughing when it was given, the ref obviously saw something about more than we did. Also, no card given but a penalty.. that one doesn't make sense to me.. can happen, but tbf the ref was shiite all match, the linesmen not too much better.. they were just closing their eyes and sticking their flag up either way.. must have all been related.
[cite]Posted By: Spankie[/cite]I totally disagree with the fallacy that if a ref hasn't played football he doesn't understand the game. It wrankles with me quite a bit actually as I've had that aimed at me a couple of times in my 7.5 years of officiating. I look at it from the managerial point of view. Do managers have to have reached the peak of playing to be a decent manager? No, look at Wenger he played at a modest level but is one of the all time great Premier League managers. There was a thing a few years ago when it was touted that ex-players should be referees. That one went by the way side as it would have made no difference whatsoever. A referee has to make unpopular decisions. We cannot please everyone and when I do a game I do my best to explain a decision but realise it will piss one side off and leave the other very happy.
Referees at football league level have to commit a hell of a lot of their spare time (and their professional life) to attend games, seminars and training. Sometimes to the point where marriages fall apart. I am not at that level yet I train and do all I can to better myself all this whilst juggling family life and a job. I can only assume how tricky it becomes the higher you go especially when you have to prove to The FA you're training week on week to satisfy them you're fit enough to be at that level. I just think it's sometimes a little easy to criticise.
So what 'certain group of people' do referees come from as I know a far few (including Premier Leage assistant referees) and everyone has a different personality and style of refereeing and take on certain situations. The only consistent thing is the laws which we have to apply. All players are different as are referees. Fair comment?
I don't think anyone who knows anything about football think it's an easy job and that the people who chose to do it are dedicated. It's difficult and the players certainly don't help matters these days.
The common sense ones amongst us accept that mistakes are going to be made, that's the human element of the game and it's fine and i will usually give refs the benifit of the doubt and stick up for them. However when a ref is as bad as we had on Saturday and it's mistake after mistake that's not acceptable and deserves critisim. It was a pretty easy game for him until the penalty decision and after that he couldn't handle it (either that or he was biased?).
I can absolutely guarantee there are no biased referees. Some incompetent ones, some very, very good ones but never, ever biased. If there were what does say about the state of league football in this country?
[cite]Posted By: Atletico Addick[/cite]Definitely didn't think it was a penalty and was laughing when it was given, the ref obviously saw something about more than we did. Also, no card given but a penalty.. that one doesn't make sense to me.. can happen, but tbf the ref was shiite all match, the linesmen not too much better.. they were just closing their eyes and sticking their flag up either way.. must have all been related.
Does a penalty challenge automatically have to be punished with a card? No. So why say that, it doesn't make sense? That comment makes no sense. It was a soft penalty and can guarantee 99 out of 100 referees wouldn't have given it. They do have the microphones so can communicate. Usually when it comes to throws if it's in the referee's diagonal they'll give it, if it's in front of the assistant he'll lead and if it's the middle it's a matter of communicating which way it's going and going together. It's easy to be critical when you want every single supposed 50-50 throw in to go your way...
[cite]Posted By: Simonsen[/cite]Mmm....I'd politely suggest he knows a little more than your goodself? I may of course be wrong, as you could be a first-class linesman....in which case I bow to your superior standing in the game.
Possibly. Then again, I'm not paid to run the f***ing line at a professional football match, am I? To take your analogy a little further, the average neurosurgeon knows a bit more about brain surgery than me, but, since I'm not drilling into people's skulls on a regular basis that's hardly the point, is it?
I'd suggest you tell him, next time he's reffing one of your games, to stick to that f***ing level and not attempt to do the job at a level at which he is clearly not capable of performing adequately. By my count he got four throw-in decisions wrong (including one utterly laughable one that eventually led to 'nam getting an undeserved penalty), two offsides patently wrong (I was in line with both) and failed to give one corner (because he was thirty yards away from the byeline when it went out)
If you make a smart-arse comment in future, might I suggest you at least do it about something that makes sense, rather than as a knee-jerk reaction sticking up for someone your obviously pally with.
Everyone makes mistakes in every job. Doesn't mean we should be demoted. He probably does Sundays through the love of the game and should be commended for it.
Linesman is arguably a tougher job than being in the middle. It's impossible to get every decision right, especially offsides when you have to see the moment the ball is kicked and the line of the defence - this in itself is impossible when teams play longer balls. People choose not to accept this because they like to have a scapegoat. It's always 100% worse when the team don't win.
Leroy...I might not see him this season to pass on your advice! (we're not always fortunate enough to get the top refs allocated to our games). As for being pally...he only knows me as the bloke who runs the line for him and gives him 30 quid at the end of the game. It's a shame you feel so strongly about him because he's lined at The Valley several times now and people haven't previously had a problem with him. AshTray is right about the long ball off-sides...they're really hard to judge and personally I've found throw ins hard to get right (where the ball has pinged off more than one player in a tackle). I've got years of experience but I still find it difficult (and apparently I'm one of the better ones!)
Comments
Something clearly causes Savage to fall, but it’s not obvious from the angle I’ve seen whether Racon touched him or whether he simply lost his balance. Racon’s mistake was that he turned his body into the player without making any attempt to play the ball. On the other hand, Savage clearly was going for the ball. Racon obviously didn’t push Savage but it is possible he backed into him causing him to fall. Savage then immediately appealed, suggesting he thought he had been impeded.
I agree entirely that it is not at all clear, but it is far from as obviously wrong as many of the decisions we see week in week out!!!!
None of the D&R players semmed to appeal, and was left literally open mouthed!. I asked Saga next to me and he was not sure as well!.........
like the others there was an air of disbelief. As upsetting as it must be for a manager, Parky should have controlled himself, probably like the rest of us amazed that we went in 1-1 instead of being 3-0 up.
He made no contact with the ball but did make contact with the player. It's a pen.
It's not the ref's fault that we went to pieces afterwards.
to be fair from what I saw of that Benson ran into Francis and cleaned the both of them up... probably his only meaningful contribution to be honest, apart from his back header to Roberts
Never want to see Sodje in a Charlton shirt again, he looks like Carlton Cole with a blindfold on.
Going by what the Ref was letting Dagenham get away with after tha it wasn't a penalty. The "it's a foul anywhere else on the pitch so it's a penalty" i agree with usually but in this game it doesn't apply because far worse was continually going on that wasn't seen as a foul.
In the refs defence though he often did blow up for fouls.......just gave the decision the wrong way.
I always try to give refs the benefit of the doubt and i certainly don't blame him for the result, but it's games like that where you can only conclude that the ref is either completely incompetent or he was cheating in favour of Dagenham. It went beyond making simple mistakes.
Bizarre, because up 'til the penalty he was having a decent game, but then again there wasn't much for him to do up 'til then i suppose.
The point has been made though, that it shouldn't have cost us. We can't blame the Ref for not being out of site before that and playing so tamely after it.
The Ref was ok. From our view it looked like Racon was a bit clumsy and I wasn't surprised a foul was given. Another time, the ref may well have played on. The penalty did change the nature of the game but that's surely as much Charlton's fault as anyone else's. The linesman who people are whinging about is the fella who refs in our Sunday league. Excellent ref who knows his football.
wum
What about not having a ref at all mate? After all refs are a 'certain group of people', and maybe they wouldn't meet with your approval.
Forget TV technology and the like, John Still should have half-heartedly reffed the game lurking in one corner for the first half, and Phil Parkinson the second half. What about the players sorting the decisions out themselves? Save on officials fees, and worries about their uselessness. Or the Captain of each team has the whistle for a half each, and we 'ref as we go'.
Referees at football league level have to commit a hell of a lot of their spare time (and their professional life) to attend games, seminars and training. Sometimes to the point where marriages fall apart. I am not at that level yet I train and do all I can to better myself all this whilst juggling family life and a job. I can only assume how tricky it becomes the higher you go especially when you have to prove to The FA you're training week on week to satisfy them you're fit enough to be at that level. I just think it's sometimes a little easy to criticise.
So what 'certain group of people' do referees come from as I know a far few (including Premier Leage assistant referees) and everyone has a different personality and style of refereeing and take on certain situations. The only consistent thing is the laws which we have to apply. All players are different as are referees. Fair comment?
I don't think anyone who knows anything about football think it's an easy job and that the people who chose to do it are dedicated. It's difficult and the players certainly don't help matters these days.
The common sense ones amongst us accept that mistakes are going to be made, that's the human element of the game and it's fine and i will usually give refs the benifit of the doubt and stick up for them. However when a ref is as bad as we had on Saturday and it's mistake after mistake that's not acceptable and deserves critisim. It was a pretty easy game for him until the penalty decision and after that he couldn't handle it (either that or he was biased?).
I can absolutely guarantee there are no biased referees. Some incompetent ones, some very, very good ones but never, ever biased. If there were what does say about the state of league football in this country?
Does a penalty challenge automatically have to be punished with a card? No. So why say that, it doesn't make sense? That comment makes no sense. It was a soft penalty and can guarantee 99 out of 100 referees wouldn't have given it. They do have the microphones so can communicate. Usually when it comes to throws if it's in the referee's diagonal they'll give it, if it's in front of the assistant he'll lead and if it's the middle it's a matter of communicating which way it's going and going together. It's easy to be critical when you want every single supposed 50-50 throw in to go your way...
I'd suggest you tell him, next time he's reffing one of your games, to stick to that f***ing level and not attempt to do the job at a level at which he is clearly not capable of performing adequately. By my count he got four throw-in decisions wrong (including one utterly laughable one that eventually led to 'nam getting an undeserved penalty), two offsides patently wrong (I was in line with both) and failed to give one corner (because he was thirty yards away from the byeline when it went out)
If you make a smart-arse comment in future, might I suggest you at least do it about something that makes sense, rather than as a knee-jerk reaction sticking up for someone your obviously pally with.
Linesman is arguably a tougher job than being in the middle. It's impossible to get every decision right, especially offsides when you have to see the moment the ball is kicked and the line of the defence - this in itself is impossible when teams play longer balls. People choose not to accept this because they like to have a scapegoat. It's always 100% worse when the team don't win.