[cite]Posted By: Steve Dowman[/cite]I was brought up on a council estate in Lewisham and now at 37 years old I own a massive waterfront house, earn a very decent income, pay the top-rate of tax and am firmly left of center, always have been and always will be.
I dont think you'd get an old Etonian saying anything as classless as that.
[cite]Posted By: Steve Dowman[/cite]Coming from a family of oirish immigrants, paid schooling was not an option, we all went to state schools and none of us wasted our time at uni, yet all my brothers and sisters did well in their careers.
Come on then sport, please illuminate us with what esteemed profession it is that you pursue so we can all admire your wonderful achievements and the "barriers" you have overcome to get there.....I am dying to know.
...I own a massive waterfront house, earn a very decent income...
How F'ing rude Bormiston. Enjoy that big house - knob.
I will thanks, probably go for a quick dip in the pool soon too.
How is life on the Ferrier these days?
I don't like all that bottled french fizzy water stuff.
[cite]Posted By: Steve Dowman[/cite]I was brought up on a council estate in Lewisham and now at 37 years old I own a massive waterfront house, earn a very decent income, pay the top-rate of tax and am firmly left of center, always have been and always will be.
I dont think you'd get an old Etonian saying anything as classless as that.
I think you are rather missing the point.
Mr. Dowman said earlier that "the politics of the left are steeped in envy." The clear inference there is that those of us on the political left, which very much includes me, are jealous of rich people and that we are too lazy to earn our own keep and merely want to soak the rich.
The point I am making about my own personal circumstances, however classless that may be, is that he is talking complete bollocks.
My political views are based on wanting to see a fairer society with everybody given a chance to succeed and to live a dignified life, not on some sort of envy of the rich.
I owe everything I have achieved in my life to things achieved by Labour, I went to state schools, lived in council houses and got state funding for university, so I don't like it when people like Mr. Dowman accuse Labour of being based on envy when the point of the party has been to produce a fairer society. Although in recent years it has been hard to keep the faith.
If people have differing views to mine then that is fine, that is their right, but I would not do what Mr. Dowman has done and imply that their views are based on malignant intent.
"My political views are based on wanting to see a fairer society with everybody given a chance to succeed and to live a dignified life, not on some sort of envy of the rich."
Unfortunately your comment re your waterfront house and great salary, came across as very undignified and sounded like you wanted us to be envious of you. Which i am to be honest. id love to be able to live in oz but wasnt to be as I was too lazy to get myself a good state education.
You are probably right, I could have phrased my argument better and, on reflection, did not give enough thought to how my comments would be interpreted.
I let Mr. Dowman's comments get under my skin and in the process of trying to get my point across it looks like I went a bit OTT.
Some on here know the buttons to push to get a bite. Read these type of topics for long enough and the same people surface.
I'm lucky I know I'm clever enough to know I'm not clever at all. Aimed low in life and achieved it early. Just like all my friends I left school with we all ended up average.
Just like most people, and I suspect most people on here, I do not mix with or know of any of the top 1% in this country. Being rich and sucsessful are relative terms anyway.
You are probably right, I could have phrased my argument better and, on reflection, did not give enough thought to how my comments would be interpreted.
I let Mr. Dowman's comments get under my skin and in the process of trying to get my point across it looks like I went a bit OTT.
Apologies to you for that.
Okay, im still envious tho. I think Dowman's sole aim is to get a rise out of those with opposing political views. You're best off ignoring him as he is there solely to wind up.
[cite]Posted By: Stig[/cite]The thing is though public school types are systematically taught to overcome any barriers, because it's their inalienable right to be in control.
I'm sorry, but I cannot let this comment pass unquestioned.
Having been to, and taught at, a number of state and public schools, the teaching differs little, if at all.
Good and bad, 'left' and 'right', inspirational and bone idle, teachers at both.
In both systems students are motivated to overcome barriers, whatever they might be.
The main difference is in class size and student behaviour
I am astonished that anyone could write that students are taught that it is their inalienable right to be in control.
If there was a shred of evidence to back this up I would love to hear it. Personally it seems like someones Dickensian fantasy.
Your telling me you get the same life lessons in a state school as you do in a public school? Different experiances to grow up on producing different kinds of people. Good and bad points about both.
Andy, I think I've made my point as best I can.
There may be confusion between home upbringing where most of 'life lessons' (whatever they may be defined as) are instilled, and what values are taught at school.
What I am challenging is that public schools teach the point I have highlighted in Stig's post.
[cite]Posted By: Floyd Montana[/cite] Personally it seems like someones Dickensian fantasy.
Some people like to live in their Dickensian fantasy. A Christmass Carol page one.
``And the Union workhouses?'' demanded Scrooge. ``Are they still in operation?''
``They are. Still,'' returned the gentleman, `` I wish I could say they were not.''
``The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour, then?'' said Scrooge.
``Both very busy, sir.''
``Oh! I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course,'' said Scrooge. ``I'm very glad to hear it.''
Some people very much want to return to the situation where the poor 'face compulsory MANUAL labour', so eloquently championed by ES and IDS.
[cite]Posted By: Stig[/cite]The thing is though public school types are systematically taught to overcome any barriers, because it's their inalienable right to be in control.
I'm sorry, but I cannot let this comment pass unquestioned.
Having been to, and taught at, a number of state and public schools, the teaching differs little, if at all.
Good and bad, 'left' and 'right', inspirational and bone idle, teachers at both.
Inbothsystems students are motivated to overcome barriers, whatever they might be.
The main difference is in class size and student behaviour
I am astonished that anyone could write that students are taught that it istheir inalienable right to be in control.
If there was a shred of evidence to back this up I would love to hear it. Personally it seems like someones Dickensian fantasy.
How many Prime ministers have come from Eton?
How many have come from Crown Woods?
Born to rule and born to serve.
19 Prime Ministers from Eton, 7 from state schools (Thatcher, Major, Brown, Callaghan, Lloyd-George, Wilson, McDonald).
It's ludicrous to contend that going to a public school doesn't give you massive advantages for the rest of your life, although some of these will be bound up with the fact that your family is wealthy in the first place.
It also silly to suggest that if you went to a public school you automatically look out for your own type. Most of the Attlee Government so beloved of the left were public school boys (including Attlee himself) while grammar school girl Maggie T abolished more grammar schools then any other Education Secretary.
[cite]Posted By: Jints[/cite]19 Prime Ministers from Eton, 7 from state schools (Thatcher, Major, Brown, Callaghan, Lloyd-George, Wilson, McDonald).
It's ludicrous to contend that going to a public school doesn't give you massive advantages for the rest of your life, although some of these will be bound up with the fact that your family is wealthy in the first place.
It also silly to suggest that if you went to a public school you automatically look out for your own type. Most of the Attlee Government so beloved of the left were public school boys (including Attlee himself) while grammar school girl Maggie T abolished more grammar schools then any other Education Secretary.
As I said earlier "pulling up the drawbridge".
I am with Ormiston ( that was probably obvious).
[cite]Posted By: northstandsteve[/cite]anyway back to the topic WELL DONE BORIS
I have two close friends who went to "good" public schools. One in the north and one in the south. They are both decent people with whom I enjoy spending time, but there is no doubt they have a slightly different attitude and confidence to those who went to state schools, like me.
Ormiston/SAGA, as you are so interested, my siblings include an army major (via sandhurst) a broker with Merrill Lynch (poached from Goldmans) and the Chief Operating Officer in Asia for a multinational insurance company, all went to comprehensives. Me, i am a lowly procurement manager, but I blame my laziness at school and my tendency to like a beer when I did start working for my slow start in climbing the career ladder, not eton.
my thought entirely Algarve, though I feel bad now for missing out the police seargent and the head of childrens health services for a London local authority now, so thought they deserved a mention too.
Am I missing something here? We invite FIFA officials on a free beany at the Olympics; we arrange a friendly with a nation represented at the voting which costs us a £350k loss; and we arrange another with a voting nation, half way round the world in the middle of the season. So we're upset that other potential hosts have given bigger bribes than we have to stage the 2018 World Cup?
[cite]Posted By: Steve Dowman[/cite]Ormiston/SAGA, as you are so interested, my siblings include an army major (via sandhurst) a broker with Merrill Lynch (poached from Goldmans) and the Chief Operating Officer in Asia for a multinational insurance company, all went to comprehensives. Me, i am a lowly procurement manager, but I blame my laziness at school and my tendency to like a beer when I did start working for my slow start in climbing the career ladder, not eton.
I hope you're not taking this personally - I did say I wasn't having a go, just interested.
Personally, I got disillusioned when I worked in the City and found myself working for an old etonian who was a clueless idiot - I complained about him to my boss and was told that he was worth more to the firm than me because with one phone-call to his old schoolfriends he could drum up thousands of pounds-worth of business whereas, of course, I could not.
Another example was when my boss (a working class "barrow boy" type) was offered the opportunity to become a partner in the firm - something anyone with any ambition at the firm would have aspired to. He was all set to accept until it was explained to him that he would have to "buy in" - the cost was way beyond him, despite the fact that he was probably on over £250,000 pa (and we are talking the 1980s here).
weve all seen upper class twots who are useless at their jobs, but we have also seen similar from people of other backgrounds. my brother at ML has shown that if you are talented you can get to the top and these companies are after all avaricious in their pursuit of profits, the days of the Eton shoe-in to these roles are long gone, if you are good enough you will make it, my brother did it with a Sarf london accent, so no reason others cant.
[cite]Posted By: Steve Dowman[/cite]weve all seen upper class twots who are useless at their jobs, but we have also seen similar from people of other backgrounds. my brother at ML has shown that if you are talented you can get to the top and these companies are after all avaricious in their pursuit of profits, the days of the Eton shoe-in to these roles are long gone, if you are good enough you will make it, my brother did it with a Sarf london accent, so no reason others cant.
They've always been like that, hence employing "barrow boys", who occasionally rise above their station. If that's not the way it is now I would be delighted. However, looking at the latest set of annual reports from Barclays Bank plc, I note that the board of directors still seems true to type (Eton, Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard). Maybe ML is different?
Or was he a (minor) public school boy and counts that as a state education! might explain the bitterness to Eton, perhaps he went to Harrow and has always had a chip about Eton. I would imagine he went to a grammar and looks down on proles, hence his comments to curb it about enjoy the ferrier, I would be very surprised if he has ever had a drink in the Watt Tyler (no it is not a student uni bar) and knows the first thing about the ferrier. Be interested to know his schooling and profession seeing as I answered his questions. My guess would be somewhere like Chis and Sid or Colfes, but defo a posh grammar if the state school claim is as it seems.
[cite]Steve Dowman wittered:[/cite]Or was he a (minor) public school boy and counts that as a state education! might explain the bitterness to Eton, perhaps he went to Harrow and has always had a chip about Eton. I would imagine he went to a grammar and looks down on proles, hence his comments to curb it about enjoy the ferrier, I would be very surprised if he has ever had a drink in the Watt Tyler (no it is not a student uni bar) and knows the first thing about the ferrier. Be interested to know his schooling and profession seeing as I answered his questions. My guess would be somewhere like Chis and Sid or Colfes, but defo a posh grammar if the state school claim is as it seems.
If he's who I think he is, he went to a comp, actually.
Comments
I don't like all that bottled french fizzy water stuff.
I think you are rather missing the point.
Mr. Dowman said earlier that "the politics of the left are steeped in envy." The clear inference there is that those of us on the political left, which very much includes me, are jealous of rich people and that we are too lazy to earn our own keep and merely want to soak the rich.
The point I am making about my own personal circumstances, however classless that may be, is that he is talking complete bollocks.
My political views are based on wanting to see a fairer society with everybody given a chance to succeed and to live a dignified life, not on some sort of envy of the rich.
I owe everything I have achieved in my life to things achieved by Labour, I went to state schools, lived in council houses and got state funding for university, so I don't like it when people like Mr. Dowman accuse Labour of being based on envy when the point of the party has been to produce a fairer society. Although in recent years it has been hard to keep the faith.
If people have differing views to mine then that is fine, that is their right, but I would not do what Mr. Dowman has done and imply that their views are based on malignant intent.
Unfortunately your comment re your waterfront house and great salary, came across as very undignified and sounded like you wanted us to be envious of you. Which i am to be honest. id love to be able to live in oz but wasnt to be as I was too lazy to get myself a good state education.
Im with Ormiston. Some very limited views from some on this forum.
You are probably right, I could have phrased my argument better and, on reflection, did not give enough thought to how my comments would be interpreted.
I let Mr. Dowman's comments get under my skin and in the process of trying to get my point across it looks like I went a bit OTT.
Apologies to you for that.
I'm lucky I know I'm clever enough to know I'm not clever at all. Aimed low in life and achieved it early. Just like all my friends I left school with we all ended up average.
Just like most people, and I suspect most people on here, I do not mix with or know of any of the top 1% in this country. Being rich and sucsessful are relative terms anyway.
Okay, im still envious tho. I think Dowman's sole aim is to get a rise out of those with opposing political views. You're best off ignoring him as he is there solely to wind up.
I'm sorry, but I cannot let this comment pass unquestioned.
Having been to, and taught at, a number of state and public schools, the teaching differs little, if at all.
Good and bad, 'left' and 'right', inspirational and bone idle, teachers at both.
In both systems students are motivated to overcome barriers, whatever they might be.
The main difference is in class size and student behaviour
I am astonished that anyone could write that students are taught that it is their inalienable right to be in control.
If there was a shred of evidence to back this up I would love to hear it. Personally it seems like someones Dickensian fantasy.
There may be confusion between home upbringing where most of 'life lessons' (whatever they may be defined as) are instilled, and what values are taught at school.
What I am challenging is that public schools teach the point I have highlighted in Stig's post.
Some people like to live in their Dickensian fantasy. A Christmass Carol page one.
``And the Union workhouses?'' demanded Scrooge. ``Are they still in operation?''
``They are. Still,'' returned the gentleman, `` I wish I could say they were not.''
``The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour, then?'' said Scrooge.
``Both very busy, sir.''
``Oh! I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course,'' said Scrooge. ``I'm very glad to hear it.''
Some people very much want to return to the situation where the poor 'face compulsory MANUAL labour', so eloquently championed by ES and IDS.
How many Prime ministers have come from Eton?
How many have come from Crown Woods?
Born to rule and born to serve.
It's ludicrous to contend that going to a public school doesn't give you massive advantages for the rest of your life, although some of these will be bound up with the fact that your family is wealthy in the first place.
It also silly to suggest that if you went to a public school you automatically look out for your own type. Most of the Attlee Government so beloved of the left were public school boys (including Attlee himself) while grammar school girl Maggie T abolished more grammar schools then any other Education Secretary.
As I said earlier "pulling up the drawbridge".
I am with Ormiston ( that was probably obvious).
Lol!
Anyway, futile gesture or not, well done Boris.
I hope you're not taking this personally - I did say I wasn't having a go, just interested.
Personally, I got disillusioned when I worked in the City and found myself working for an old etonian who was a clueless idiot - I complained about him to my boss and was told that he was worth more to the firm than me because with one phone-call to his old schoolfriends he could drum up thousands of pounds-worth of business whereas, of course, I could not.
Another example was when my boss (a working class "barrow boy" type) was offered the opportunity to become a partner in the firm - something anyone with any ambition at the firm would have aspired to. He was all set to accept until it was explained to him that he would have to "buy in" - the cost was way beyond him, despite the fact that he was probably on over £250,000 pa (and we are talking the 1980s here).
They've always been like that, hence employing "barrow boys", who occasionally rise above their station. If that's not the way it is now I would be delighted. However, looking at the latest set of annual reports from Barclays Bank plc, I note that the board of directors still seems true to type (Eton, Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard). Maybe ML is different?