Henry can you also tell me what I should be doing its all very confusing, shall I go for a Chinese for lunch or a sandwich from Tesco's, what would we all do without someone like you to tell us how to think hey.
I'd go for the Chinese. Sandwiches from Tesco's can be pretty dry.
Henry im not saying anyone should be attacked and im not defending the EDL either. Im saying ignoring and issue and saying it isnt there leeds to extremism.
As does inflating that problem out of all proportion and blaming it on the Irish/Jews/Blacks/Asians/Eastern Europeans/Muslims.
You say you're not defending the EDL which is good. I wish you would condemn them as the racist front organisation that your know they are.
Henry can you also tell me what I should be doing its all very confusing, shall I go for a Chinese for lunch or a sandwich from Tesco's, what would we all do without someone like you to tell us how to think hey.
Oh sarcasm and misplaced sarcasm at that
Where have I told you or anyone how to think? No I didn't in any way tell anyone how to think.
So a pretty pointless input to the debate really from you.
Your right im not gonna contribute to this debate, it all ends in tears it always does, my point being that the bloke said he wasn't defending the EDL (which you were quick to assume he was) and yet you still say "I wish you would condemn them", why? why should he condemn they like me he probably doesnt know enough about them to condemn them. Therefore to me you are just trying to impose your unqualified opinion on him.
I'm not a fan of people using up resources and not contributing, but I don't care if they're muslim extremists, polish, working for the EDL or can trace their line back to bodicea. I've no idea how many EDL fans are living on the dole and filling their days by being irritated that other folk are doing better than them. Or how many dodge paying taxes that go to pay for the troops, schools, hospitals and police that they hold in such high regard. A few, I'd bet.
It's great that this country gives people opportunities and it's sad that some people exploit that. But if you provide a service and pay your taxes then you're OK by me.
Most Muslims I know and I live in a multi racial area in East London are good , honest and honourable people who hate extremism within their own community in the way I hate the EDL and all it stands for.
The media doesn't help. A lot of the fear of islam extremism is peddled by papers like the Mail and groups like the BNP etc.
On the other hand, there is a problem. You don't get home grown suicide bombers on British streets without there being one. You don't get muslim elders preaching hate and prejudiced views in mosques to young impressionable people.
This is a minority.
The issue is that these cases don't appear to be tackled as strongly as other hate groups. The mosques etc seem extremely hard to infiltrate to expose this.
I think it's a generation thing as well. The elders are much more "traditional" and as further generations grow up in this country and more muslim women express themselves things should become easier for all.
One of my best mates at school was Indian Sikh. He dated a white girl but couldn't tell his family. He said he will be expected to marry another indian sikh end of. This applies to muslim families too. Hopefully as years go by children and their children will become more assimilated.
As I was walking down towards the ground last night, I saw these being handed out (though at first glance just thought it was a random leaflet / flyer). I had been looking forward to the game for ages, as I was taking my 3 year old boy for the first time.
You know what little kids are like - he said "Daddy, can I get a picture card?" Thought he was gonna end up with a kebab shop flyer and as we walked past, the guy held out his hand and then drew back sharply. He just said "Not for you fella".
It wasn't until the guy behind me asked if I was ok, that I realised what was being handed out. I am a quarter Japanese and so have a slight tan.
I was utterly mortified. Luckily, my boy is too young to understand what was going on.
I am so unhappy to hear that. I am how ever happy that the guy behind you stepped up (in a way) if that had been me and my family (I have a olive colour to my skin in the summer months, not bad seeing as I am half Scot, half Irish) I would have gone to the nearest Police officer and made a whole lot of fuss.
A whole lot of fuss.
Why? Just tell him you're a fucking pillock. I've had it before in pubs on St Georges Day being told I shouldn't be there. Just tell 'em to f off you're just as English as them. Was out with my pal yesterday, he's asian, had the BNP knock on his door espousing their virtues. He listened, he argued back and off they went. Much better to deal with it with debate than running off to the filth (who let's face it, aren't much help.)
These knuckledraggers only exist because the political establishment has failed to address people's legitimate concerns about immigration and a country that is overcrowded and cannot adequately provide public services to its citizens as a result. Stifling the debate, censoring opinion and crying 'racist' at people directly affected as a result worked for ten odd years, but it doesn't work anymore as people are sick of being lied to. Unfortunately, numbskull thugs like the EDL have filled this vacuum, but it is a problem of the governing classes own making. If they had listened to people in the first place (isn't that supposed to be what democracy is?) then we wouldn't be in this position, whereby the EDL can capitalise on people's resentment and end up making things worse for everybody. Fortunately, they're all too thick to pose any real threat anyway.
My thanks to Stu for the video. I can sleep safely now that I know the security of the realm is in the hands of a man with the brain the size of a currant.
Didn't this happen 70 odd years ago in Germany? The powers that be sitting in ivory towers ignoring the majority of the population and their woes? The disenfranchised becoming restless and a far right wing group picking up the mantle, finding a scapegoat to blame all the country's ills on, which suited the government until it was too late...
Perry mate
I think the population of Germany at the time had a bit more to worry about in their daily lives than the a current average UK citizen
Very true Richard, and so do the people in the third world today. But it does not stop people of the UK thinking they are hard done by compared to those at the top, even if they are completely wrong about it. You know more than most it is often about perception rather than facts...
Just a thought but why didnt someone actually read the leaflet ? if it had any racist comments etc they could have handed it in to Obill make a complaint and let the law of the land do its job?
The only football ground where I've been offered any racist literature was predictably the Den (the old variant). Being environmentally conscious I gave the leaflet back, after I ripped it in two first.
Just a thought but why didnt someone actually read the leaflet ? if it had any racist comments etc they could have handed it in to Obill make a complaint and let the law of the land do its job?
Would have done but as I said he didn't offer one to me and I didn't know who he was.
Doubt very much even they would be stupid enough to put what they really think in writing. They tend to hide behind weasel words and clichés
I think the problem with the view that this or that group of politicians "ruined the country" is the extent to which it overstates the capacity of government to limit or manage the main drivers of change, which IMO is at the root of most disaffection.
Whether it's deindustrialisation, globalisation, Islamification, technological change or global warming, governments are not in the driving seat so regardless of who's in power the effects will still be felt and people will be alienated by them and feel victimised.
That doesn't mean politics is useless, because there are still choices to be made and ways to mitigate the outcomes. It's just that the parameters of influence are much narrower than extremists or their apologists are willing to accept.
Ah Airman, glad you're here. Could you answer a few question on this. These are purely for infromation i am not attempting to point blame or suggest what should have been done - just interested to know.
Were the club aware this was going on?
Could they do anything about it if they were? (or did they)
What could we, as fans, and the club, do about it should it happen again?
I personally would be keen to give EDL a very big 'Not at our Club' should they turn up again.
Airman democracy isnt perfect but its the best we have. The Labour party has itself admitted it made mistakes ---after it left power and called anyone who challanged it a racist / bigot, but better late than never although the damage will never be able to be recovered.
DRF people have the right to hand out leaflets that are within the law. They dont have the right to abuse people verbally and with the written word.The EDL were formed by football hooligans they seak confrontation. You have the right to tell them "not at out club", i would however urge caution in doing that on your own.
As I was walking down towards the ground last night, I saw these being handed out (though at first glance just thought it was a random leaflet / flyer). I had been looking forward to the game for ages, as I was taking my 3 year old boy for the first time.
You know what little kids are like - he said "Daddy, can I get a picture card?" Thought he was gonna end up with a kebab shop flyer and as we walked past, the guy held out his hand and then drew back sharply. He just said "Not for you fella".
It wasn't until the guy behind me asked if I was ok, that I realised what was being handed out. I am a quarter Japanese and so have a slight tan.
I was utterly mortified. Luckily, my boy is too young to understand what was going on.
I am so unhappy to hear that. I am how ever happy that the guy behind you stepped up (in a way) if that had been me and my family (I have a olive colour to my skin in the summer months, not bad seeing as I am half Scot, half Irish) I would have gone to the nearest Police officer and made a whole lot of fuss.
A whole lot of fuss.
Why? Just tell him you're a fucking pillock. I've had it before in pubs on St Georges Day being told I shouldn't be there. Just tell 'em to f off you're just as English as them. Was out with my pal yesterday, he's asian, had the BNP knock on his door espousing their virtues. He listened, he argued back and off they went. Much better to deal with it with debate than running off to the filth (who let's face it, aren't much help.)
Airman democracy isnt perfect but its the best we have. The Labour party has itself admitted it made mistakes ---after it left power and called anyone who challanged it a racist / bigot, but better late than never although the damage will never be able to be recovered.
DRF people have the right to hand out leaflets that are within the law. They dont have the right to abuse people verbally and with the written word.The EDL were formed by football hooligans they seak confrontation. You have the right to tell them "not at out club", i would however urge caution in doing that on your own.
Whilst I know what you're saying about seeking confrontation in response I would always revert to:
'The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing.'
I believe EDL need to know they are not welcome at our club.
Airman democracy isnt perfect but its the best we have. The Labour party has itself admitted it made mistakes ---after it left power and called anyone who challanged it a racist / bigot, but better late than never although the damage will never be able to be recovered.
DRF people have the right to hand out leaflets that are within the law. They dont have the right to abuse people verbally and with the written word.The EDL were formed by football hooligans they seak confrontation. You have the right to tell them "not at out club", i would however urge caution in doing that on your own.
Whilst I know what you're saying about seeking confrontation in response I would always revert to:
'The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing.'
I believe EDL need to know they are not welcome at our club.
Do you know there is Charlton Athletic EDL group on facebook? Clearly they are wanted by some that support the same team as you.
It's all well and good trying to stop the EDL raising their concerns and trying to stop people hearing them; but why aren't you tackling the reasons why people ARE listening to them?
Surely that's the goal. To tackle peoples concerns and fears before they lean to far right?
And we can all join if we want to - see below for their description. Not me though as I think we still have our country.
"This is the EDL charlton athletic group we will protest against militant islam in our country, We will stand up to this racist vermin and peacefully protest, We want out country back, No surrender."
Is there any proof that this group was set up by people who have ever actually been to the Valley (except to hand out leaflets). It takes nothing to set up a group, I suspect the EDL set them up for every club.
The problem with 'tackling people's concerns and fears' is that they are vary rarley based on any fact.
Fears are rarely rational and therefore rational actions wont prevent them (ask anyone who has a fear of flying). However tackling people that spread hatred can be done - I can't beleive people are so happy to sit back and allow this to happen at a club with our history.
If you show me an actual problem that the irradication of Islam / muslims or immigrants alone will solve then I will happily tackle it.
The bloke on Newsnight (and the following morning on 5live) distanced himself and the EDL from facebook groups, and invited people to go to the EDL website for their real views.
I wish there wasn't a facebook Charlton supporters/EDL group. I don't have facebook myself, but my understanding from my son is that anybody can set up a 'group' instantly, and straight away there will be others who join in, often for a laugh or for flimsy reasons. I understand you could instantly set up a 'Charlton Supporters who believe the moon is made of cheese' group, and there would be instant membership (probably more than CAFC/EDL facebook would get).
Is there any proof that this group was set up by people who have ever actually been to the Valley (except to hand out leaflets). It takes nothing to set up a group, I suspect the EDL set them up for every club.
The problem with 'tackling people's concerns and fears' is that they are vary rarley based on any fact.
Fears are rarely rational and therefore rational actions wont prevent them (ask anyone who has a fear of flying). However tackling people that spread hatred can be done - I can't beleive people are so happy to sit back and allow this to happen at a club with our history.
If you show me an actual problem that the irradication of Islam / muslims or immigrants alone will solve then I will happily tackle it.
& bang. You've just done exactly what every liberal & labour MP do. Come out with a false statement that smears anyone on the right and twists it into a racial issue that everyone tip toes around.
I can't ever recall the EDL saying they wish to eradicate all of Islam/Muslims and all immigrants. In fact they don't. They were set up after the extremists protested in Luton, the burning of the poppy, etc etc and their publicised aims are to tackle EXTREME Islam...not all Islam.
Now, we all know that many hold these same views. I don't know many who condone extreme Islam. Can't think of anyone who wasn't horrified at the behaviour of these idiots at the soldiers homecoming parade and burning the poppy.
Those of us with a bit of nous about us know that whilst many people share these sentiments, these groups are always overtaken with idiots who lean much farther to the right, hijack it for their own agendas and turn it into the whole anti-immigrant thing. & I don't know many at all that wish to be a part of that either.
But whilst those on right drag it further right, and while those on the left seek to discredit with smears, those in the middle with genuine worries about Britian breeding more suicide bombers, preachers left unchecked, kids being fed hatred, women & gay rights in these communities being abused, sharia law trying to be introduced to tower hamlets etc, then nothing happens. & this applies to every extremist group, not just a small minority of muslims.
So that's Tommy Robinson or to use his real name Stephen Yaxley-Lennon. Maybe he uses a false name because of his previous membership of the BNP?
And having denied he knew the person setting up the EDL facebook pages a picture of than person with Robinson/Yaxley-Lennon appeared the next day. Strange that.
Comments
Oiiiii whats going on here i never said naff all about what to eat ?
its a very danergous thing that
Not in my name.
I'm not a fan of people using up resources and not contributing, but I don't care if they're muslim extremists, polish, working for the EDL or can trace their line back to bodicea. I've no idea how many EDL fans are living on the dole and filling their days by being irritated that other folk are doing better than them. Or how many dodge paying taxes that go to pay for the troops, schools, hospitals and police that they hold in such high regard. A few, I'd bet.
It's great that this country gives people opportunities and it's sad that some people exploit that. But if you provide a service and pay your taxes then you're OK by me.
Interesting that you don't have anything to contribute and now say "you don't know enough about the EDL to condemn them".
I never assumed GH was defending the ED or tried to impose my opinion on him. I just expressed the WISH that he go a step further and condemn them.
On the other hand, there is a problem. You don't get home grown suicide bombers on British streets without there being one. You don't get muslim elders preaching hate and prejudiced views in mosques to young impressionable people.
This is a minority.
The issue is that these cases don't appear to be tackled as strongly as other hate groups. The mosques etc seem extremely hard to infiltrate to expose this.
I think it's a generation thing as well. The elders are much more "traditional" and as further generations grow up in this country and more muslim women express themselves things should become easier for all.
One of my best mates at school was Indian Sikh. He dated a white girl but couldn't tell his family. He said he will be expected to marry another indian sikh end of. This applies to muslim families too. Hopefully as years go by children and their children will become more assimilated.
The only football ground where I've been offered any racist literature was predictably the Den (the old variant). Being environmentally conscious I gave the leaflet back, after I ripped it in two first.
Doubt very much even they would be stupid enough to put what they really think in writing. They tend to hide behind weasel words and clichés
I think the problem with the view that this or that group of politicians "ruined the country" is the extent to which it overstates the capacity of government to limit or manage the main drivers of change, which IMO is at the root of most disaffection.
Whether it's deindustrialisation, globalisation, Islamification, technological change or global warming, governments are not in the driving seat so regardless of who's in power the effects will still be felt and people will be alienated by them and feel victimised.
That doesn't mean politics is useless, because there are still choices to be made and ways to mitigate the outcomes. It's just that the parameters of influence are much narrower than extremists or their apologists are willing to accept.
Ah Airman, glad you're here. Could you answer a few question on this. These are purely for infromation i am not attempting to point blame or suggest what should have been done - just interested to know.
Were the club aware this was going on?
Could they do anything about it if they were? (or did they)
What could we, as fans, and the club, do about it should it happen again?
I personally would be keen to give EDL a very big 'Not at our Club' should they turn up again.
Airman democracy isnt perfect but its the best we have. The Labour party has itself admitted it made mistakes ---after it left power and called anyone who challanged it a racist / bigot, but better late than never although the damage will never be able to be recovered.
DRF people have the right to hand out leaflets that are within the law. They dont have the right to abuse people verbally and with the written word.The EDL were formed by football hooligans they seak confrontation. You have the right to tell them "not at out club", i would however urge caution in doing that on your own.
The club can't prevent people distributing material off its premises. I don't think it was aware of this activity at the time.
My advice would be to raise any future concerns with the club's operations team, who are in constant touch with the police.
Whilst I know what you're saying about seeking confrontation in response I would always revert to:
'The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing.'
I believe EDL need to know they are not welcome at our club.
It's all well and good trying to stop the EDL raising their concerns and trying to stop people hearing them; but why aren't you tackling the reasons why people ARE listening to them?
Surely that's the goal. To tackle peoples concerns and fears before they lean to far right?
And we can all join if we want to - see below for their description. Not me though as I think we still have our country.
"This is the EDL charlton athletic group we will protest against militant islam in our country, We will stand up to this racist vermin and peacefully protest, We want out country back, No surrender."
Is there any proof that this group was set up by people who have ever actually been to the Valley (except to hand out leaflets). It takes nothing to set up a group, I suspect the EDL set them up for every club.
The problem with 'tackling people's concerns and fears' is that they are vary rarley based on any fact.
Fears are rarely rational and therefore rational actions wont prevent them (ask anyone who has a fear of flying). However tackling people that spread hatred can be done - I can't beleive people are so happy to sit back and allow this to happen at a club with our history.
If you show me an actual problem that the irradication of Islam / muslims or immigrants alone will solve then I will happily tackle it.
The bloke on Newsnight (and the following morning on 5live) distanced himself and the EDL from facebook groups, and invited people to go to the EDL website for their real views.
I wish there wasn't a facebook Charlton supporters/EDL group. I don't have facebook myself, but my understanding from my son is that anybody can set up a 'group' instantly, and straight away there will be others who join in, often for a laugh or for flimsy reasons. I understand you could instantly set up a 'Charlton Supporters who believe the moon is made of cheese' group, and there would be instant membership (probably more than CAFC/EDL facebook would get).
I can't ever recall the EDL saying they wish to eradicate all of Islam/Muslims and all immigrants. In fact they don't. They were set up after the extremists protested in Luton, the burning of the poppy, etc etc and their publicised aims are to tackle EXTREME Islam...not all Islam.
Now, we all know that many hold these same views. I don't know many who condone extreme Islam. Can't think of anyone who wasn't horrified at the behaviour of these idiots at the soldiers homecoming parade and burning the poppy.
Those of us with a bit of nous about us know that whilst many people share these sentiments, these groups are always overtaken with idiots who lean much farther to the right, hijack it for their own agendas and turn it into the whole anti-immigrant thing. & I don't know many at all that wish to be a part of that either.
But whilst those on right drag it further right, and while those on the left seek to discredit with smears, those in the middle with genuine worries about Britian breeding more suicide bombers, preachers left unchecked, kids being fed hatred, women & gay rights in these communities being abused, sharia law trying to be introduced to tower hamlets etc, then nothing happens. & this applies to every extremist group, not just a small minority of muslims.
And having denied he knew the person setting up the EDL facebook pages a picture of than person with Robinson/Yaxley-Lennon appeared the next day. Strange that.