tbh Razil i have no idea how to address it. I feel that continued immigration without enough emphasis put on interacial relations has allowed ghettos to form. Some inner city areas are starting to resemble the projects in the USA, and with that has come the gang mentality, which comes when your up against it and your all part of one thing.
Most of these kids have nothing else to do apart from go around in these gangs and i'm sure most of these kids don't go much further than stealing the odd mobile phone or 'happy slapping' some kid.
However some do get sucked deeper into the world of crime and recently we are starting to see the result of this. How do we adress it? I think it is too late, but if i had children i would seriously worry about the state of this city and whether i would want to bring them up here.
For example in the greenwich borough, in the bottom three in the whole country for education, what good state schools are there for a normal child, where you don't run the risk of them being sucked into this gang mentality world. None spring to mind.
As a result of this the immigrants are blamed and that is reflected in the growing support for the BNP. At the moment i can only see this problem getting worse
i agree Sco, all those years of watching Lisbie takes any youthful optimism right out of ya!
and in regards mortimer's question.. yes i am 16, however i am into my politics and i am currently growing up seeing this whole thing happening around me, and its not a case of the middle aged thinking it was better in their day, what is happening with today's youth is really shocking, the future does not bode well!
[cite]Posted By: Chris_from_Sidcup[/cite]Whilst i appreciate it's not exactly a great way to die and obviously so young as well, can we really be expected to have sympathy. The latest kid was a convicted burglar, was on a tag, ran in a gang, and graffited his tag all over the place so he was no angel.
sounds like a daily mail editorial. what kind of society wouldn't be sympathetic to a 15 year old kid getting murdered cos he wasn't an angel. peckham is hardly sidcup.
Being of the younger generation i'll put my opinion on the matter. I do think respect is a huge problem, discipline from parents i do think is lacking for some kids espeically from the afro-carribean community. The lack of a father figure surely must be a problem? I also agreee with the tendency for youths to carry knives or guns causes much problems. I mean in years gone by you could have a good old fight to sort out a dispute and that would be the end of it but now you can't really do this. I mean i'm no angel, iv had the odd fight and i'v come away thinking what if they had been tooled up?
some dads might teach their kids to fight or how to hold a gun!! not saying its common, but can't just blame single mums.
i'm scared that people my age are now parents (and people younger than me) and i'd like to think i have enough morals to bring my kids up with respect and discipline, however i know people of similar age to me, that i went to school/college with, that do have kids, and i do cringe when i think how their poor kids will grow up.
sadly, i don't know what can be done to change this. i don't understand how some people can be the way they are.
I'm not saying single mums aren't good parents its just that it's in a boys nature to look up to their father. Without the father figure there it's more likely for the child to go off the rails.
I come from a Single parent family, but haven't gone off the rails cause of the lack of a father figure, I've always found that argument shit, cause you don't live in a perceived Nuclear family from suburbia isn't the issue.
There is a poverty of aspirations, and that's generational, if you see you're family having poor opportunities in life, then it carries on, something needs to change that, if your expectation is that you'll end up the same as granddad, dad, mum and nan, then it's easier to join a gang, run drugs and cause trouble . It's not about dad being a father figure, it's about role models in the area, and if the two options are either generational poverty in the family, or being like the dealer with the bemmer, then what you going to pick? The Education system has let you down, so it's an easy choice for most, same with girls, mum had you at 15, gran had mum at 15, so that's your expectations in life. There is a real problem with low educational achievement in white working class boys, so it's not a black problem, it's a cross race, cross gender problem.
Change the role models, change the aspirations, change the expectations.
Change the role models, change the aspirations, change the expectations.
Rothko says "There is a poverty of aspirations" to which I'd add that equality of opportunity is important.
There are many factors behind this sort of crime, and environment and parental influence is important. We learn a high proportion of our adult values as young children and that comes from our parents and families as well as the culture we are brought up in. If you bring people up to believe that society will offer them nothing and that crime is as good a career choice as any then you run the risk of an under-class of criminals growing up. Unfortunately for too long we've had a polarised society, and we've allowed it to happen. Tax cuts are given to the rich because "they need an incentive" yet the tax take from the bottom few percent of society has hardly changed over the last few decades, while those at the top have disproportionately benefitted. If the rich and well paid need an economic incentive, then why not offer one to the inhabitants of these Estates? The trouble is that Labour has continued Thatcher and Major's work and has gone out of its way to court the "right" to the point where it is afraid of being seen to do anything that might harm the well-paid, even at the expense of a fairer and more equitable society. It also seems that the jobs and employment opportunities for young people aren't there in the way they once were.
There has to be a better value placed on education to learn and develop skills and not act as glorified child minding. Somewhere in that is the necessity to teach people right from wrong and that a life of crime is inherently wrong, that means teaching children to think and to offer them a reward for studying.
Add in low literacy levels (the number of prisoners who have low educational levels including literacy is too high) and you are making trouble for yourself. Plus I also blame the rap/gangsta culture for glamourising violence and drug use, ok so now we have an excuse to get the Tim Westwood types off the radio...
I'm not convinced that tougher sentencing or ASBO-ing perpetrators works (that isn't the same as saying be lenient/don't sentence), America where many States have the death penalty and where life can mean life, still has a much higher murder rate but also much higher rates of gun-ownership. However we do need more police on active duty.
I think I'd be inclined to punish more severely if crimes were committed with weapons (guns or knives) and that the OB need to have zero tolerance when they encounter them.
In short I don't think there are any easy or quick answers, and I can only see things worsening if gun/knife ownership and social neglect is allowed to continue. I know the last Tory government banned hand-guns etc but it has to go further than that.
They also have one of the most affluent populations on the planet.
BFR is right, the equality of opportunity is a problem, council services are stretched to breaking point at all levels, and it's ok people complaining about council tax in outer London boroughs, when inner London can't afford not to have decent levels of public funding
Schools in Greenwich for anyone over the age 11 suck.
Schools in Southwark over the age of 11 are improving rapidly, why?
Because the Southwark Schools have more Africans in them, the African immigrants like the Indians before do not want their children to fail, and take education seriously.
White/Carribean underclass on the whole don't take education seriously happy to take benefits.
Children aspire to same, don't want to work want state to pay, aspire to be Jade Goody or like.
If parents don't want success then children have zero aspirations.
Hard labour is the answer in my humble opinon as a deteraint for crime. Going to prison seems to be a learning place for the prisoner to learn more criminal techniques and contacts.
Hearing about this 'soulja' being killed obviously is not the best news, but hopefully out of this measures wil be put in place to stop inner city yoof's falling into crime.
Personally think it's a big problem that is widespread across London, i happen to see on a regualar basis, gangs, generally young black people or white people intending to act like black people. I find these gangs tend to go for people their own age group, so like this 'soulja' that was killed they may be respectful at home with either 1/2 parents but as soon as they hit the streets they feel they can do what the they like.
I also find it's mainly the afro-carribean/somalian race who are the ones that feel they should rebel and form gangs etc. Even around places like Charlton, Plumstead, Woolwich, Thamesmead, Abbey Wood which generally people would not think of as seriously bad areas, are riddled with these knife-weilding crews. Beginning to hate the fact that you can't go into Woolwich or Charlton (not on a match day), without walking past large group of gangs who if they wanted to could easily take your stuff of you.
So i think this whole gang mentality with these kids needs to be stopped before they enter the age where they've gone too far. And these PCSO's are a joke, more bobby's on the beat would help.
And also hearing that the home office are cutting their funding for courses which help the kid's from deprived areas get away from these gangs, is baffling to say the least.
there was a guy from some group or other on sky news yesterday morning being interviewed and he said the main problem was that there wasn't any youth clubs or other activities for these kids to get involved with and that boredom led to most of these problems . Now granted there were more things like that growing up in the seventies when I grew up but to be honest my youth club was only on once a week the rest of the time you had to make your own fun , also how can this spokesman give that as a reason when it's the same for all races yet it's in the vast majority young black men that are getting involved in this culture.
Was amused listening to Jon Gaunt on talksport yesterday , he had a young lad of 17 from peckham ring in and tell him wha it was like there and that he didn't run with any gangs even though he had friends that did and that he had a legit job to hold down. When Gaunt asked him why he had managed to avoid going down that route he said because he had responsabilitys such as looking after his two kids , one of which was three and he was only 17 himself. He was then asked how despite having a kid at 14 he managed to make the mistake again , he said "it's just life , innit?"
Bexleyheath is right this culture has spread into the outer city areas such as thamesmead,abbey wood, woolwich, sidcup and charlton! And the problem no longer lies solely with young black men, there are recently young white males,who speak the same and dress the same as these black gangs and have the same aim of mugging other kids the same age who don't belong to one of these gangs.
[cite]Posted By: buckshee[/cite]there was a guy from some group or other on sky news yesterday morning being interviewed and he said the main problem was that there wasn't any youth clubs or other activities for these kids to get involved with and that boredom led to most of these problems .
A mate does a lot of youth work in Charlton - when the youth club in Rathmore Road is open, the crime rate on the Cherry Orchard Estate goes down. It ain't rocket science.
I don't think "more bobbies on the beat" is really the answer (PSCOs do work as an eyes-and-ears/public contact operation) but I think you definitely need a permanent police presence of some kind in the worst estates, to crack the territorial instincts of some of these gangs.
one of the things that I just don't get is that when these kids get shot the parents always come out with the old "he was such a lovely kid" quote and claim not to have any idea what they've been up to . I bet the kid has been out all hours though. When I was 15 I wasn't allowed out beyond 9pm unless I was somewhere my folks could ring and check up on me and if I got caught out lying (which I quite often did) then there would be hell to pay.
Comments
family breakdown/role of the benefits system there in
Gangsta culture
drugs laws
firearm possession laws,
Post MacPherson stop and search powers
If you want to look at this issue i'd suggest you'd read this thread. I found it very illuminating though as i said before very depressing
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2014413,00.html
Santa.
Most of these kids have nothing else to do apart from go around in these gangs and i'm sure most of these kids don't go much further than stealing the odd mobile phone or 'happy slapping' some kid.
However some do get sucked deeper into the world of crime and recently we are starting to see the result of this. How do we adress it? I think it is too late, but if i had children i would seriously worry about the state of this city and whether i would want to bring them up here.
For example in the greenwich borough, in the bottom three in the whole country for education, what good state schools are there for a normal child, where you don't run the risk of them being sucked into this gang mentality world. None spring to mind.
As a result of this the immigrants are blamed and that is reflected in the growing support for the BNP. At the moment i can only see this problem getting worse
Supporting Charlton ages you quickly!
and in regards mortimer's question.. yes i am 16, however i am into my politics and i am currently growing up seeing this whole thing happening around me, and its not a case of the middle aged thinking it was better in their day, what is happening with today's youth is really shocking, the future does not bode well!
sounds like a daily mail editorial. what kind of society wouldn't be sympathetic to a 15 year old kid getting murdered cos he wasn't an angel. peckham is hardly sidcup.
I also agreee with the tendency for youths to carry knives or guns causes much problems. I mean in years gone by you could have a good old fight to sort out a dispute and that would be the end of it but now you can't really do this. I mean i'm no angel, iv had the odd fight and i'v come away thinking what if they had been tooled up?
i'm scared that people my age are now parents (and people younger than me) and i'd like to think i have enough morals to bring my kids up with respect and discipline, however i know people of similar age to me, that i went to school/college with, that do have kids, and i do cringe when i think how their poor kids will grow up.
sadly, i don't know what can be done to change this. i don't understand how some people can be the way they are.
There is a poverty of aspirations, and that's generational, if you see you're family having poor opportunities in life, then it carries on, something needs to change that, if your expectation is that you'll end up the same as granddad, dad, mum and nan, then it's easier to join a gang, run drugs and cause trouble . It's not about dad being a father figure, it's about role models in the area, and if the two options are either generational poverty in the family, or being like the dealer with the bemmer, then what you going to pick? The Education system has let you down, so it's an easy choice for most, same with girls, mum had you at 15, gran had mum at 15, so that's your expectations in life. There is a real problem with low educational achievement in white working class boys, so it's not a black problem, it's a cross race, cross gender problem.
Change the role models, change the aspirations, change the expectations.
Rothko says "There is a poverty of aspirations" to which I'd add that equality of opportunity is important.
There are many factors behind this sort of crime, and environment and parental influence is important. We learn a high proportion of our adult values as young children and that comes from our parents and families as well as the culture we are brought up in. If you bring people up to believe that society will offer them nothing and that crime is as good a career choice as any then you run the risk of an under-class of criminals growing up. Unfortunately for too long we've had a polarised society, and we've allowed it to happen. Tax cuts are given to the rich because "they need an incentive" yet the tax take from the bottom few percent of society has hardly changed over the last few decades, while those at the top have disproportionately benefitted. If the rich and well paid need an economic incentive, then why not offer one to the inhabitants of these Estates? The trouble is that Labour has continued Thatcher and Major's work and has gone out of its way to court the "right" to the point where it is afraid of being seen to do anything that might harm the well-paid, even at the expense of a fairer and more equitable society. It also seems that the jobs and employment opportunities for young people aren't there in the way they once were.
There has to be a better value placed on education to learn and develop skills and not act as glorified child minding. Somewhere in that is the necessity to teach people right from wrong and that a life of crime is inherently wrong, that means teaching children to think and to offer them a reward for studying.
Add in low literacy levels (the number of prisoners who have low educational levels including literacy is too high) and you are making trouble for yourself. Plus I also blame the rap/gangsta culture for glamourising violence and drug use, ok so now we have an excuse to get the Tim Westwood types off the radio...
I'm not convinced that tougher sentencing or ASBO-ing perpetrators works (that isn't the same as saying be lenient/don't sentence), America where many States have the death penalty and where life can mean life, still has a much higher murder rate but also much higher rates of gun-ownership. However we do need more police on active duty.
I think I'd be inclined to punish more severely if crimes were committed with weapons (guns or knives) and that the OB need to have zero tolerance when they encounter them.
In short I don't think there are any easy or quick answers, and I can only see things worsening if gun/knife ownership and social neglect is allowed to continue. I know the last Tory government banned hand-guns etc but it has to go further than that.
Yep, but they don't have a culture of gun crime.
BFR is right, the equality of opportunity is a problem, council services are stretched to breaking point at all levels, and it's ok people complaining about council tax in outer London boroughs, when inner London can't afford not to have decent levels of public funding
Arfur, is it me or are the majority of your posts these days just very sad attempts at getting Rothko to bite?
Schools in Southwark over the age of 11 are improving rapidly, why?
Because the Southwark Schools have more Africans in them, the African immigrants like the Indians before do not want their children to fail, and take education seriously.
White/Carribean underclass on the whole don't take education seriously happy to take benefits.
Children aspire to same, don't want to work want state to pay, aspire to be Jade Goody or like.
If parents don't want success then children have zero aspirations.
end of.
What, you mean that Rothko and Red Ken are one and the same? I had no idea!
Personally think it's a big problem that is widespread across London, i happen to see on a regualar basis, gangs, generally young black people or white people intending to act like black people. I find these gangs tend to go for people their own age group, so like this 'soulja' that was killed they may be respectful at home with either 1/2 parents but as soon as they hit the streets they feel they can do what the they like.
I also find it's mainly the afro-carribean/somalian race who are the ones that feel they should rebel and form gangs etc. Even around places like Charlton, Plumstead, Woolwich, Thamesmead, Abbey Wood which generally people would not think of as seriously bad areas, are riddled with these knife-weilding crews. Beginning to hate the fact that you can't go into Woolwich or Charlton (not on a match day), without walking past large group of gangs who if they wanted to could easily take your stuff of you.
So i think this whole gang mentality with these kids needs to be stopped before they enter the age where they've gone too far. And these PCSO's are a joke, more bobby's on the beat would help.
And also hearing that the home office are cutting their funding for courses which help the kid's from deprived areas get away from these gangs, is baffling to say the least.
Phew.
Now granted there were more things like that growing up in the seventies when I grew up but to be honest my youth club was only on once a week the rest of the time you had to make your own fun , also how can this spokesman give that as a reason when it's the same for all races yet it's in the vast majority young black men that are getting involved in this culture.
Was amused listening to Jon Gaunt on talksport yesterday , he had a young lad of 17 from peckham ring in and tell him wha it was like there and that he didn't run with any gangs even though he had friends that did and that he had a legit job to hold down. When Gaunt asked him why he had managed to avoid going down that route he said because he had responsabilitys such as looking after his two kids , one of which was three and he was only 17 himself. He was then asked how despite having a kid at 14 he managed to make the mistake again , he said "it's just life , innit?"
A mate does a lot of youth work in Charlton - when the youth club in Rathmore Road is open, the crime rate on the Cherry Orchard Estate goes down. It ain't rocket science.
I don't think "more bobbies on the beat" is really the answer (PSCOs do work as an eyes-and-ears/public contact operation) but I think you definitely need a permanent police presence of some kind in the worst estates, to crack the territorial instincts of some of these gangs.