But the oldest parts are only 20 years old and some just ten. Lack of maintenenace will mean it all looks and feels pony in 2 or 3 years. I was in that bar / room on the half way line and if that is one of out main entertaining or corporate areas then I wouldn't pay much. We only have 9 boxes as well don't we
I think everyone recognises that The Valley needs some money spent on it to freshen it up, which obviously hasn't been possible in recent years. We have 14/15 exec boxes at present, BTW - 10 in the east and 4/5 in the west.
I would like to point out that The Valley is beginning to look tired for a relatively new stadium. The red seats come in about 4 shades of pink, rust all over, scrubby concourses etc
You should see some other grounds makes the Valley look like a palace.
Shame that you have reverted to the insults to anyone who takes a different stance to your own PA.
Counter the points made with valid alternatives rather than come up with meaningless cliches about "think outside the box".
Other than your contribution PA is has been an interesting discussion.
So inferring that someone, in my opinion is a 'Luddite' or :Ostrich',is an insult ?!, wow, i'm amazed. I have, and i'm sure everyone else on here, has been 'insulted' much worse than that - with a few choicer words than those mentioned too !! I certainly am every day.! In actual fact, you will probably find that some of the responses to me could be construed as insulting, but, as i said in the original question, feel free to have a pop at me ! I'm just trying to put my point over. Its just when people do not want to look,listen and learn, then that riles me - am i not allowed to do that ?? Let other people on this thread decide if i have insulted them ? - replies please.
I think that if took the time to look at my contributions in the other thread, you will find occasions where i have offered many alternatives to the many reasons why Addicks didnt want to go to O2 - and additionally, i think you will find that there probably wouldnt have been an 'interesting discussion' without my input !! Do you not agree? Obviously not !
Let me cherry-pick as an example a comment from the original thread ... 'Portsmouth I admire your logical, pragmatic, approach' I know this is a bit like the papers film review quote, but , Henry, dont take it so hard - it is a discussion where i trying to get my point over, sometimes to people who dont want to listen - but dont get so high and mighty !
Going to watch Charlton is not just about watching the football great as it has been this season, it is about being part of the 'Charlton Athletic Community' meeting up wth old friends at the Lib before and after the game many, including myself who now live faraway from the valley - not going to the Greenwich Pennisular or some souless windswept open field site in North West Kent where the nearest licensed decent meeting place is 20 minutes away what the F***k is that all about.
I am not some luddite and appreciate we all have to move with the times, but there is still an end to develop at our spirtual home, when and if the need comes to to do this. I am proud of the Valley, I am proud of our club - we are Charlton Athletic not some bloody plastic club called South East London Wanderers or North West Kent bloody Albion - We belong to Charlton it does what it says on the tin!
Leave as it is.
PA do you remember the dark days at South Norwood I do and don't want them back!
I am a happy luddite and an osterich by definition on here, and happy to support "mid size" ole Charlton at the Valley, I think you mean "little old Millwall" from up the road PA...
Perhaps supporting FC 02 Redbull FC just doesnt appeal regardless of stadia size or potential
Willie, of course i remember the dark days, people seem to have this idea that i am a whipper-snapper who has no idea of the history of this club - i have been there st Shithouse Park , and there clearing out the weeds from the Valley, and i would be the last person to suggest Red,Red Robin be scrapped- it is part of the heritage of *our* club. All i was trying to do was suggest that we could *possibly* progress as a club by moving and then the majority of replies were 'i cant park- so therefore i dismiss the idea' - people who weren't even prepared to listen to the argument. And then i get accused of being insulting, because i'm trying to put my point over !!!!! Im the first person to welcome and listen to valid reasons to not going to O2, as i have shown in the original thread, but there comes a time when it needs to be reciprocal - dont you think ?
I think you (Portsmouth) are completely missing the point that The Valley is special to many for reasons of emotional attachment.
If you had children and someone offered to allow you to swap one of your children for a much brighter kid that would do much better at school and earn enough to be financially successful you wouldn't care how good this other kid is, you would always say no - well I would.
For some The Valley is more important that the division the club plays in. If you can't see that then you will not understand why people are so reluctant to agree with you.
The other arguments you have completely ignored. NCP, for example, are not answerable t the council, and, almost certainly, pay their rates based on the value of the car park, which would be reduced if they had to give it over for free to football fans at weekends. Let's remember that football fans are hardly the the most popular group, and there is loads of evidence of businesses fleecing them and little of commercial enterprises helping them.
You also fail to even reply to the suggestion that a 40k stadium would have to be filled or it would be a financial burden - even in the Premier League. We have kept attendances up with 'special offers' for the last ten years (plus). With huge parking costs there is little chance of the club making football seem like a reasonable cost past time. Even if fans are committed the sheer cost would force some into reduced attendance at best and no attendance at worst.
You have also failed to even give a clue as to why you think moving would be a good idea.
In fact, I get the impression that all you are interested in now is standing your ground and arguing your point.
I am, for the record, not completely against leaving The Valley (all be it that it is not something I like the sound of) but I genuinely think it has the potential to cause more problems than it would solve.
I also, for the record, do not see Charlton in the Premier League as the only acceptable solution. As much as I'd like it I am more than willing to watch th club in a lower division. If that makes me a bad person then so be it.
Sorry Portsmouth Addick I see the forum as a place to express opinions as opposed to offering solutions so not sure we do need to be reciprocal on this one, I oppose even the suggestion of exploring a possible move away from the Valley with every fibre in me.
I dont for one moment question your credentials or believe I am in any way a more passionate supporter than you, but happy to agree to disagree on what thankfully is a hypothetical debate and would neither give nor expect any ground on this one, absolutely no move regardles of reward but an interesting thread and intruiging to see if I am out of touch with many on here..
KH - its impossible for me to answer some of the points you raise , as i dont know the details involved, such as car-parking - its impossible for me to say you will get free car-parking (it was a general remark) , in addition, no-one should suggest that we have to pay an exhorbitant fee for car parking - no-one knows . Its a genarality at this moment in time - thats why, to me, its almost an irrelevance at this point of the discussion. I have, time and again, stated that My point was purely that if moving to a new stadium would make us financially secure, and possibly a prem league regular - then surely, its worth investigating !!! Then i get a barrage of 'car parking is expensive so its a no' full stop. An i right in that comment? You say that i am 'all you are interested in now is standing your ground and arguing your point.' - B hell, what am i meant to do here ? I supposedly at one time am not answering questions raised and now i'm 'arguing my point' I cant win, can i ????
You wouldn't knock down Stone Henge and build a new and more profitable one 2 miles down the road.
It would get more visitors if they moved it to London. Don't know who thought of building it so far from a train station or a major city.
To be fair, they did build Stonehenge next to the A303, so that holiday makers going down to the West Country (or Glastonbury) had something to look at.
Having spent an eternity in a long queue to get though the Northbound Blackwall Tunnel tonight, I'm very sceptical about how the transport infrastructure in the area would cope with a 40,000 ground if they are NOT coming from central London on the Jubilee Line.
Alot of fans from Kent would be lost because of the extra travel costs via train and even by car, apart from that the history of the ground a the community feeling Charlton is based around would be all but diminished which is why I %100 disagree with a move away from the valley.
Remind me not to employ you should you come want to work for me (Stig excepted !).
And who amongst us would want to PA?
Perhaps you should apply a bit of nous.
Most fans emotionally do not want to move from the Valley. Its obvious why. The Valley; the leaving of it, the wilderness years, the return and the re-birth of the club both on and off the pitch is not something that will make the average fan who lived through that entertain a move away.
If you are going to try and present an argument for moving, the last thing you need to is to call those who have a huge emotional tie to The Valley, "Luddites and "Ostriches". Its a bit like trying to broker the Northern Ireland peace agreement by calling David Trimble and Ian Paisley "bigots" or Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness "terrorists" - you would have no chance of getting any of them to see your point of view..
Understanding the emotion of The Valley and being emotionally attuned to those who lived through the last 28 years or more is the only possible way that you may take people with you.
If the club decides it wants to move, then those of us with a huge attachment to The Valley will need some attuned persuasion. Many will never be able to accept the move. That is the nature of deep feelings. Its a bit like someone saying to you why don't you support a club with a greater potential than Charlton, say Chelsea? After all they have just won the Champions League, Ambrovitch is more minted than the mysterons. You can hear them saying, "be open-minded", "don't bury your head in the sand", "it makes sense if you like football to watch a really successful team".
Fortunately we are emotionally attached - that's what keeps us addickted and is the glue that binds us together. The Valley is for many of us a symbol of what we love about our club and why we believe it is different to all the other clubs out there.
We will never need to move from the sacred home of football, We are not a big enough club to warrent it and we never will be unless we won the chyampions league 5 times in a row
The valley is our home we lost it once and for it to even cross your mind is wrong,
its not a case of little old charlton its a case of waking up from your day dream ,
All we need is a 35k stadium should we consistantly qualify for europe in the prem, (do you know how ridiculoius that sounds)
We would still have to play in the Fa cup and carling cup and during our prem years we couldnt sell 20k tickets in some games and thats me being generous
The Valley is our home we fought tooth and nail to get it back, to then vacate it willfully for a soulless off the shelf entertaiment complex, it wouldnt be a football ground is nothing short of stupidity
This is a tricky one. I saw my first game at Selhurst Park, then went to Upton Park and then to The Valley, so there is a generation of fans whose connection to The Valley is not the same as many of those Lifers who were there pre-Selhurst. That moves the historical argument forward slightly as whose history do we/are we applying this to? Sure the clubs history shows we played at The Valley, Selhurst, Upton and then The Valley, but the emotional attachment comes from a group of supporters. I don't mean this with any disrespect and I am grateful that those supporters fought tooth and nail to get the club to return to its own stadium - but my love for the club is not based on The Valley, it is based somewhere in those Selhurst days. Further more we now have a generation of fans who have only ever known The Valley, what is their historical perspective? I can't speak for them but I would have a guess that their roots are not as firmly planted in The Valley soil as someone who had to fight for it. So would I be ok with the club moving? yes, if it was for the best of Charlton Athletic. I have grown up watching Charlton in three different stadiums and am passionate about my club for many reasons, but the history of The Valley return isn't one - for me.
So where does that leave us? Well I actually believe The Valley is fine for us. Its a nice stadium with the potential for some expansion if it is required. But what we cannot have as a football club is another competitor on our doorstep. So if the plans for an arena goes forward we need to be involved, we need to have a full review of this again. How could we compete for those supporters who are undecided about teams or just want to watch football if there is another team 1 mile away playing Premier League football and we are in the Championship, maybe it will be cheaper to come to us, maybe that will be the attraction but I really feel we don't want our club in that position.
I completely agree with you there Bangkok Dave, I am in the same boat as you as my first games were at Selhurst too.
For me moving wouldn't be progress unless we either had a major investor with a bottomless pit of money like Man City or Chelsea or a 20,000+ waiting list for STs. Until then any talk of moving would merely be change just for the sake of change.
To make things easier for the majority of supporters regarding travel, how about we move 20 miles east into Kent? Plenty of land around the Ebbsfleet intl terminal so trains from London won't be a problem and I could get there in 10 minutes and I'm sure Gillingham won't mind too much.....................................
I am glad to see that there is a consensus among some of the fans that the Valley, is the heart of Charlton. We do have a heritage of support, and a history of why this ground is so important. Is it perfect, no, could it be improved yes.
As bing wrote.......
If the club decides it wants to move, then those of us with a huge attachment to The Valley will need some attuned persuasion. Many will never be able to accept the move. That is the nature of deep feelings. Its a bit like someone saying to you why don't you support a club with a greater potential than Charlton, say Chelsea? After all they have just won the Champions League, Ambrovitch is more minted than the mysterons. You can hear them saying, "be open-minded", "don't bury your head in the sand", "it makes sense if you like football to watch a really successful team". Fortunately we are emotionally attached - that's what keeps us addickted and is the glue that binds us together. The Valley is for many of us a symbol of what we love about our club and why we believe it is different to all the other clubs out there.
For me, and I would like to think of many supporters there is an emotional bond that binds us to the Valley. I seem to have had this argument all my life, with my brother supporting Arsenal, and the majority of my friends supporting West ham, to me it has never been about just winning cups, a bigger stadium, or how much money you can spend on a player. I am not sure you can quantify my support of Charlton in logical, financial statistics. I also understand that making the Valley a bigger, stadium is going to difficult, and that is why the Lansdowne mews development is an important issue to the club, for potential expansion. Anyway, when has it been 'easy' to support Charlton..... it is a roller coaster ride, so hang on and enjoy the ride!
I'm afraid i've come to the conclusion, based upon the comments of the majority of people on here, that i now fully understand why Liddle Ol Charlton will remain Liddle Ol Charlton, fluctuating between the divisions forever except for the occasional sojourn in the top tier.
Remind me not to employ you should you come want to work for me (Stig excepted !).
Progress, that much over used word so beloved of politicians and financiers. It's an emotionally loaded word which is designed to trip up people who happen to disagree with proposals. Aha! they say, 'so you're against progress,' as though that in itself is enough to win an argument.
I suppose I believe that what fans want will ultimately not matter, money will drive any decisions. But Henry Irving has laid out the for and against arguments very neatly. It would however take a lot of persuading to make me want to move to a new home.
I'm afraid i've come to the conclusion, based upon the comments of the majority of people on here, that i now fully understand why Liddle Ol Charlton will remain Liddle Ol Charlton, fluctuating between the divisions forever except for the occasional sojourn in the top tier.
Remind me not to employ you should you come want to work for me (Stig excepted !).
Got a job thanks. Do you only employ people who will agree with your terrible ideas?
I would sugest that this debate will be more informed in few years time, after we see what happens to whoever comes to rent the Olympic stadium. New stadiums can become a drag on a clubs finances.
Comments
Its just when people do not want to look,listen and learn, then that riles me - am i not allowed to do that ??
Let other people on this thread decide if i have insulted them ? - replies please.
I think that if took the time to look at my contributions in the other thread, you will find occasions where i have offered many alternatives to the many reasons why Addicks didnt want to go to O2 - and additionally, i think you will find that there probably wouldnt have been an 'interesting discussion' without my input !! Do you not agree? Obviously not !
'Portsmouth I admire your logical, pragmatic, approach'
I know this is a bit like the papers film review quote, but , Henry, dont take it so hard - it is a discussion where i trying to get my point over, sometimes to people who dont want to listen - but dont get so high and mighty !
I am not some luddite and appreciate we all have to move with the times, but there is still an end to develop at our spirtual home, when and if the need comes to to do this. I am proud of the Valley, I am proud of our club - we are Charlton Athletic not some bloody plastic club called South East London Wanderers or North West Kent bloody Albion - We belong to Charlton it does what it says on the tin!
Leave as it is.
PA do you remember the dark days at South Norwood I do and don't want them back!
Perhaps supporting FC 02 Redbull FC just doesnt appeal regardless of stadia size or potential
Im the first person to welcome and listen to valid reasons to not going to O2, as i have shown in the original thread, but there comes a time when it needs to be reciprocal - dont you think ?
If you had children and someone offered to allow you to swap one of your children for a much brighter kid that would do much better at school and earn enough to be financially successful you wouldn't care how good this other kid is, you would always say no - well I would.
For some The Valley is more important that the division the club plays in. If you can't see that then you will not understand why people are so reluctant to agree with you.
The other arguments you have completely ignored. NCP, for example, are not answerable t the council, and, almost certainly, pay their rates based on the value of the car park, which would be reduced if they had to give it over for free to football fans at weekends. Let's remember that football fans are hardly the the most popular group, and there is loads of evidence of businesses fleecing them and little of commercial enterprises helping them.
You also fail to even reply to the suggestion that a 40k stadium would have to be filled or it would be a financial burden - even in the Premier League. We have kept attendances up with 'special offers' for the last ten years (plus). With huge parking costs there is little chance of the club making football seem like a reasonable cost past time. Even if fans are committed the sheer cost would force some into reduced attendance at best and no attendance at worst.
You have also failed to even give a clue as to why you think moving would be a good idea.
In fact, I get the impression that all you are interested in now is standing your ground and arguing your point.
I am, for the record, not completely against leaving The Valley (all be it that it is not something I like the sound of) but I genuinely think it has the potential to cause more problems than it would solve.
I also, for the record, do not see Charlton in the Premier League as the only acceptable solution. As much as I'd like it I am more than willing to watch th club in a lower division. If that makes me a bad person then so be it.
I dont for one moment question your credentials or believe I am in any way a more passionate supporter than you, but happy to agree to disagree on what thankfully is a hypothetical debate and would neither give nor expect any ground on this one, absolutely no move regardles of reward but an interesting thread and intruiging to see if I am out of touch with many on here..
I have, time and again, stated that My point was purely that if moving to a new stadium would make us financially secure, and possibly a prem league regular - then surely, its worth investigating !!!
Then i get a barrage of 'car parking is expensive so its a no' full stop. An i right in that comment?
You say that i am 'all you are interested in now is standing your ground and arguing your point.' - B hell, what am i meant to do here ? I supposedly at one time am not answering questions raised and now i'm 'arguing my point' I cant win, can i ????
Having spent an eternity in a long queue to get though the Northbound Blackwall Tunnel tonight, I'm very sceptical about how the transport infrastructure in the area would cope with a 40,000 ground if they are NOT coming from central London on the Jubilee Line.
Perhaps you should apply a bit of nous.
Most fans emotionally do not want to move from the Valley. Its obvious why. The Valley; the leaving of it, the wilderness years, the return and the re-birth of the club both on and off the pitch is not something that will make the average fan who lived through that entertain a move away.
If you are going to try and present an argument for moving, the last thing you need to is to call those who have a huge emotional tie to The Valley, "Luddites and "Ostriches". Its a bit like trying to broker the Northern Ireland peace agreement by calling David Trimble and Ian Paisley "bigots" or Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness "terrorists" - you would have no chance of getting any of them to see your point of view..
Understanding the emotion of The Valley and being emotionally attuned to those who lived through the last 28 years or more is the only possible way that you may take people with you.
If the club decides it wants to move, then those of us with a huge attachment to The Valley will need some attuned persuasion. Many will never be able to accept the move. That is the nature of deep feelings. Its a bit like someone saying to you why don't you support a club with a greater potential than Charlton, say Chelsea? After all they have just won the Champions League, Ambrovitch is more minted than the mysterons. You can hear them saying, "be open-minded", "don't bury your head in the sand", "it makes sense if you like football to watch a really successful team".
Fortunately we are emotionally attached - that's what keeps us addickted and is the glue that binds us together. The Valley is for many of us a symbol of what we love about our club and why we believe it is different to all the other clubs out there.
We will never need to move from the sacred home of football, We are not a big enough club to warrent it and we never will be unless we won the chyampions league 5 times in a row
The valley is our home we lost it once and for it to even cross your mind is wrong,
its not a case of little old charlton its a case of waking up from your day dream ,
All we need is a 35k stadium should we consistantly qualify for europe in the prem, (do you know how ridiculoius that sounds)
We would still have to play in the Fa cup and carling cup and during our prem years we couldnt sell 20k tickets in some games and thats me being generous
The Valley is our home we fought tooth and nail to get it back, to then vacate it willfully for a soulless off the shelf entertaiment complex, it wouldnt be a football ground is nothing short of stupidity
So where does that leave us? Well I actually believe The Valley is fine for us. Its a nice stadium with the potential for some expansion if it is required. But what we cannot have as a football club is another competitor on our doorstep. So if the plans for an arena goes forward we need to be involved, we need to have a full review of this again. How could we compete for those supporters who are undecided about teams or just want to watch football if there is another team 1 mile away playing Premier League football and we are in the Championship, maybe it will be cheaper to come to us, maybe that will be the attraction but I really feel we don't want our club in that position.
For me moving wouldn't be progress unless we either had a major investor with a bottomless pit of money like Man City or Chelsea or a 20,000+ waiting list for STs. Until then any talk of moving would merely be change just for the sake of change.
simples.
Kids prices would go up to silly prices and they are our future....
Look what happens when we try to go big time.......... Has anyone seen our red polo shirt we are wearing next season?
The Valley, Floyd Road.
As bing wrote.......
If the club decides it wants to move, then those of us with a huge attachment to The Valley will need some attuned persuasion. Many will never be able to accept the move. That is the nature of deep feelings. Its a bit like someone saying to you why don't you support a club with a greater potential than Charlton, say Chelsea? After all they have just won the Champions League, Ambrovitch is more minted than the mysterons. You can hear them saying, "be open-minded", "don't bury your head in the sand", "it makes sense if you like football to watch a really successful team".
Fortunately we are emotionally attached - that's what keeps us addickted and is the glue that binds us together. The Valley is for many of us a symbol of what we love about our club and why we believe it is different to all the other clubs out there.
For me, and I would like to think of many supporters there is an emotional bond that binds us to the Valley. I seem to have had this argument all my life, with my brother supporting Arsenal, and the majority of my friends supporting West ham, to me it has never been about just winning cups, a bigger stadium, or how much money you can spend on a player. I am not sure you can quantify my support of Charlton in logical, financial statistics. I also understand that making the Valley a bigger, stadium is going to difficult, and that is why the Lansdowne mews development is an important issue to the club, for potential expansion. Anyway, when has it been 'easy' to support Charlton..... it is a roller coaster ride, so hang on and enjoy the ride!
I suppose I believe that what fans want will ultimately not matter, money will drive any decisions. But Henry Irving has laid out the for and against arguments very neatly. It would however take a lot of persuading to make me want to move to a new home.
A huge fire right where the proposed stadium site would be, clearly Portsmouth Addick has been busy with petrol and matches clearing the site...