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Charge to use Blackwall Tunnel
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To repeat. You used the word to suggest £80k is being underpaid.cantersaddick said:
Why must I have a figure in mind? Grossly can simply be to give a sense of scale. People make choices based on their material conditions but for me personally you could double that salary and I still wouldnt want to do that damage to my health. I'd say that justifies grossly.valleynick66 said:
If you say ‘grossly’ you must surely have a figure in mind. Otherwise why conclude grossly?cantersaddick said:
The reason I havent quantified what would be fair is because for me I can't think of an amount of money that would make me want to do that job knowing about the health impacts of spending time in that environment. Maybe that's coming from a position of privilege as I already have a high paid job that doesn't endanger my health. But I genuinely can't put an amount on how much I'd need to be paid to do it.valleynick66 said:
I really wasn’t being selective - I think that’s your bias. It stood out from what you provided.cantersaddick said:
Cabs have that on newer trains and lines - the majority of older lines its usual to see drivers with windows open so I doubt cab air quality is any different.valleynick66 said:
Yes I looked at the links you shared.cantersaddick said:
You are aware the air quality is the same in the cab I assume? And if you'd read my post you'd know that air quality is the key factor in taking years off their lives.valleynick66 said:
You are aware that conditions in the drivers cab are better than for commuters I assume?cantersaddick said:
I'm not doubting any of that is true. I'm sure it is. I am questioning why its relevant though? the conversation was about TfL's debt position and that it was for infrastructure investment and that they are running an operating surplus. They must be doing well if they are paying all that and still running an operating surplus for the last 3 years. The toll on blackwall (and silvertown) was a condition of the loan from central government to pay for the silvertown tunell to be built. I suspect the increases in tolls are being driven by that same agreement.Fortune 82nd Minute said:I usually avoid getting into discussions like this on here like the plague but as someone who has spent his life working in the transport field, TfL is like a red flag to a bull to me!
TfL is without doubt the last dinosaur in the public sector. It is hopelessly over-manned and the salaries paid are ludicrously sky high. It is long overdue to be modernised. Indeed, anyone could go in there and cut costs by 30% without affecting its running.
Don't believe me? Well here's a few facts.The number of TfL workers earning a basic salary of more than £100,000 increased by more than 15% in the last financial year. Data published in TfL's latest remuneration report shows the number of staff with a six-figure basic salary climbed from 536 to 617 over the past year. (In 2016, TfL had just 188 employees on a base salary of more than £100,000).
But its even worse than that. The report reveals that a total of 2,048 TfL staff received more than £100,000 once bonuses and overtime were included!
What on earth are all these people doing to deserve such salaries?
TfL still has a final salary pension scheme. The only other part of the public sector that I know of that still has such a scheme is the MP's scheme! If you are aged 60 or more when you leave your pension is payable immediately with no reduction for early payment. Try finding that sort of pension in the private sector.
Then there's the free travel for a TfL employee and a nominated partner/family member on the TfL network. That can easily be worth a couple of thousand pounds per year. Why on earth should a partner or family member get free travel?
And then let's not forget our good friends the tube drivers. The latest pay award means they will be on a base salary of nearly £80,000 a year next April. That is twice what a teacher, nurse or policeman earns. It is obscene.
I could go on. And on.
Suffice to say all the above is one of the reasons why you are paying ever higher fares and charges on London's tubes and roads.
A lot of what you say above feels very "crabs in a bucket" mentality. Worker compensation has fallen a long way behind productivity with a very clear decoupling in 2008 (after previous gradual widening since the 80's). Its no coincidence that the workers who are most organised and unionised manage to negotiate the best compensation and benefits. Just because the rest of us dont have the same negotiating power due to union busting over the last 40 odd years doesn't mean they are wrong for seeking to be paid a fair wage. Average pay has massively fallen behind in real terms over 40 years now. You have highlighted one area where its fallen slightly less behind inflation than the rest of the economy. Instead of thinking what can we learn from that to ensure fairer pay for everyone you seek to pull them down to the lowest common denominator. I believe we should be looking to them as an example of how to achieve fair pay. I just dont understand how people can look at someone else doing well (despite real terms pay cuts over quite a long period) and think so negatively about that. We should be building each other up not pitting worker against worker. Fair to criticise effectiveness of the organisation or the workers but I think to blanket attack pay is very strange.
As for tube drivers, with the huge amount of research into air quality on the tube and the health impacts of spending a lot of time on the tube I think they are grossly underpaid given we are expecting them to take years if not decades off their life for a job. Its frankly criminal the conditions we expect them to work in.
There are literally thousands of study's this one is scary:https://www.cam.ac.uk/stories/london-underground-pollution
https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/252000/largest-study-explores-impact-dust-tube/ there is the famous UCL one - "20 mins on the Northern line is as bad as smoking a cigarette"
I don’t disagree with your opening statement that they shouldn’t be criticised for being organised and maintaining their relative position but to say they are ‘grossly’ underpaid is wide of the mark.
Would you do a job that you know takes years off your life for less pay than that? I certainly wouldn't.
I stand by my statement that they are grossly under paid. Same goes for any job with large risk or health impact e.g. those who work on decommissioning nuclear power plants whose risk of cancer is massively increased. They should be massivelt compensated too.It's a personal value of mine that if people are doing a job that is slowly killing them then they should be massively compensated for that.This line amongst others stood out:
However, the researchers stress that the findings do not provide enough evidence to establish that exposure to PM2.5 directly leads to sickness absence, and that more research is needed to confirm these potential links.
This doesn’t appear to support your claim
Tube drivers have shorter life expectancy.The job of course has some negative features but positive ones too and like us all they accept the role knowing the reward structure.I stand by my assertion they are not ‘grossly’ underpaid.If you truly believe that what figure do you think is fair? And I assume you would extend to all staff in the station environment even though those staff are not paid the same as drivers.You were right to challenge me on air quality as I worded my point badly. I was trying to highlight the cab does have some features designed to offset / protect to some degree ie they aren’t abandoned without any consideration of the working environment (versus the experience for a commuter and which we may in our mind compare to).
Some pretty selective clipping of a quote from the paper there. The full quote is:"The research, led by Imperial College London, found that staff who worked in areas with higher levels of fine dust – called particulate matter (PM2.5) – also tended to report more episodes of sickness absence.However, the researchers stress that the findings do not provide enough evidence to establish that exposure to PM2.5 directly leads to sickness absence, and that more research is needed to confirm these potential links."
Sickness absence is absolutely not an indicator of the long term health impacts which is what I was referring to. As i said there is a massive body of evidence - I just selected the first couple of research papers from a journal search. Here are some more that are more focused on the long term health impacts of PM2.5 particles.
https://www.stateofglobalair.org/health/pm
Health effects attributable to long-term exposure to PM2.5 include ischemic heart disease, lung cancer, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), lower-respiratory infections (such as pneumonia), stroke, type 2 diabetes, and adverse birth outcomeshttps://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2666765724001212
https://www.epa.gov/pm-pollution/health-and-environmental-effects-particulate-matter-pm
Exposure to such particles can affect both your lungs and your heart. Numerous scientific studies have linked particle pollution exposure to a variety of problems, including:- premature death in people with heart or lung disease
- nonfatal heart attacks
- irregular heartbeat
- aggravated asthma
- decreased lung function
- increased respiratory symptoms, such as irritation of the airways, coughing or difficulty breathing.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4740125/#sec2
It was recently reported that the prevalence rate of respiratory diseases increased by 2.07%, while hospitalization rate raised by 8% accordingly, when the daily PM2.5 increased by 10 µg/m3
There are many many more journals and papers showing this direct causal link.I conceded the point on air qualityThe (original) links did not confirm Tube drivers are a group likely to die younger as you implied. And as you say many jobs expose people to different negative health factors not least of course stress in more traditional white collar roles.Regardless my comment was the use of the word ‘grossly’.I still think you exaggerate with this term (relative to many other roles) and note you haven’t quantified what you think would be fair.
How much would you want to be paid to do that role knowing it would likely take years off your life?
Furthermore the role is not definitively endangering your health any more than many other aspects of living your life.
It’s your emotive language I find issue with.Unless of course you think no reward is fair and consciously refuse to use the underground under all circumstances because of the unfair risk to customers and staff.It may not be ideal but nothing is.
Again: How much would you want to be paid to do that role knowing it would likely take years off your life?
The evidence on spending large amounts of time in conditions with those levels of air quality are pretty conclusive.
Nice attempt to bring in a slippery slope fallacy. Of course I use the tube when I need to but 1) there is a difference between an occiasional 20 minute journey when needed (genuinely once a month or so for me) and spending 8-12 hours a day, day after day in those conditions. The research is very clear that long exposure to those conditions has a greater impact on health. 2) I moved somewhere I wouldnt need the tube for my commute or regular journeys, I get a train and then walk 20 mins (half through a park) to get to work. The only time I've lived somewhere I would need a tube was during Covid when I wasnt commuting anyway. 3) One is able to suggest we should improve society whilst still participating in society. Attempting to use someones participation to undermine their argument is a poor attempt at distraction.
Yes nothing is ideal - but back to my oiriginal point. Criticising tube drivers for what they are being paid is very "crabs in a bucket" mentality even more so when you consider their working conditions and the impacts that will have on their health. Why do people feel the need to pull others down to their level?If you believe that then I think it’s fair to ask you to suggest what the fair sum is. I did not ask what you would want.I think the salary is already more than fair for the role in answer your question.
You are avoiding my challenge by not responding directly.I think in reality you know ‘grossly’ was the wrong term and you are doubling down to evade the question but you are clear you wouldn’t do it for any sum. That however is a different point.1 -
Or perhaps people think he’s done a good job and worth re electing.CaptainRobbo said:
Not in the slightest, was just making a point that you don't have to be good at your job to keep it.cantersaddick said:
Am no fan of Khan and I dont agree that getting electected 3 times is necessarily a good measure of whether someone has done a good job.CaptainRobbo said:
Sometimes you wish you could LOL a post multiple times.jose said:I have credit on the Dartford charge just in case I find myself using that crossing.
I wish there was a single simplified system to cover it all, ULEZ, congestion, and river crossings. As well as the totally incomprehensible nationwide car parking systems, and for any fines.
If there were such a system I would scrape together something like £50 credit to avoid stress when interacting with those systems.
In the face of all this nerd generated malarkey I wish we could get back to simple and straightforward cash.
Sadiq Khant has done a good job as Mayor, he has been elected three times. I live around the corner from the late Ella Adoo Kissi Debra hard by the South Circular, and the death of the poor girl has led to cleaner air round my way thanks to the action of Khan and his team.
Vladimir Putin keeps getting elected too.
But are you genuinely suggesting Khan has rigged elections in the same way Putin has?
Probably says more about the apathy of voters, that he is still in power and also a slur on the other political parties for not running credible alternatives against him at election time.4 -
This is doubly unfair as all the tube drivers are apparently going to croak it before drawing their massive pensions so they won’t even have to worry….usetobunkin said:
Train Drivers happy to have above inflation pay rise. Funded by OAP having £500 nicked off them.Leroy Ambrose said:
Jealousy, mainlyThreadKiller said:Good luck to the tube drivers, I don't really understand the ill feeling towards them1 -
Or the alternatives were less palatable? 😀ShootersHillGuru said:
Or perhaps people think he’s done a good job and worth re electing.CaptainRobbo said:
Not in the slightest, was just making a point that you don't have to be good at your job to keep it.cantersaddick said:
Am no fan of Khan and I dont agree that getting electected 3 times is necessarily a good measure of whether someone has done a good job.CaptainRobbo said:
Sometimes you wish you could LOL a post multiple times.jose said:I have credit on the Dartford charge just in case I find myself using that crossing.
I wish there was a single simplified system to cover it all, ULEZ, congestion, and river crossings. As well as the totally incomprehensible nationwide car parking systems, and for any fines.
If there were such a system I would scrape together something like £50 credit to avoid stress when interacting with those systems.
In the face of all this nerd generated malarkey I wish we could get back to simple and straightforward cash.
Sadiq Khant has done a good job as Mayor, he has been elected three times. I live around the corner from the late Ella Adoo Kissi Debra hard by the South Circular, and the death of the poor girl has led to cleaner air round my way thanks to the action of Khan and his team.
Vladimir Putin keeps getting elected too.
But are you genuinely suggesting Khan has rigged elections in the same way Putin has?
Probably says more about the apathy of voters, that he is still in power and also a slur on the other political parties for not running credible alternatives against him at election time.0 -
I’m always astounded by the number of people who resent other workers earning a good wage. What’s wrong with thinking well done them. Instead we get the green eyed monster.5
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A bit like private educationShootersHillGuru said:I’m always astounded by the number of people who resent other workers earning a good wage. What’s wrong with thinking well done them. Instead we get the green eyed monster.1 -
But in this case @cantersaddick feels they are grossly underpaid.ShootersHillGuru said:I’m always astounded by the number of people who resent other workers earning a good wage. What’s wrong with thinking well done them. Instead we get the green eyed monster.0 -
I’ve no issue with private education per seusetobunkin said:
A bit like private educationShootersHillGuru said:I’m always astounded by the number of people who resent other workers earning a good wage. What’s wrong with thinking well done them. Instead we get the green eyed monster.1 -
Yes and I've said i dont think a number can be put on it because I fundamentally believe people shouldnt be put in a position that puts their health at risk for a job. I didn't realise that was a controversial value to hold.valleynick66 said:
To repeat. You used the word to suggest £80k is being underpaid.cantersaddick said:
Why must I have a figure in mind? Grossly can simply be to give a sense of scale. People make choices based on their material conditions but for me personally you could double that salary and I still wouldnt want to do that damage to my health. I'd say that justifies grossly.valleynick66 said:
If you say ‘grossly’ you must surely have a figure in mind. Otherwise why conclude grossly?cantersaddick said:
The reason I havent quantified what would be fair is because for me I can't think of an amount of money that would make me want to do that job knowing about the health impacts of spending time in that environment. Maybe that's coming from a position of privilege as I already have a high paid job that doesn't endanger my health. But I genuinely can't put an amount on how much I'd need to be paid to do it.valleynick66 said:
I really wasn’t being selective - I think that’s your bias. It stood out from what you provided.cantersaddick said:
Cabs have that on newer trains and lines - the majority of older lines its usual to see drivers with windows open so I doubt cab air quality is any different.valleynick66 said:
Yes I looked at the links you shared.cantersaddick said:
You are aware the air quality is the same in the cab I assume? And if you'd read my post you'd know that air quality is the key factor in taking years off their lives.valleynick66 said:
You are aware that conditions in the drivers cab are better than for commuters I assume?cantersaddick said:
I'm not doubting any of that is true. I'm sure it is. I am questioning why its relevant though? the conversation was about TfL's debt position and that it was for infrastructure investment and that they are running an operating surplus. They must be doing well if they are paying all that and still running an operating surplus for the last 3 years. The toll on blackwall (and silvertown) was a condition of the loan from central government to pay for the silvertown tunell to be built. I suspect the increases in tolls are being driven by that same agreement.Fortune 82nd Minute said:I usually avoid getting into discussions like this on here like the plague but as someone who has spent his life working in the transport field, TfL is like a red flag to a bull to me!
TfL is without doubt the last dinosaur in the public sector. It is hopelessly over-manned and the salaries paid are ludicrously sky high. It is long overdue to be modernised. Indeed, anyone could go in there and cut costs by 30% without affecting its running.
Don't believe me? Well here's a few facts.The number of TfL workers earning a basic salary of more than £100,000 increased by more than 15% in the last financial year. Data published in TfL's latest remuneration report shows the number of staff with a six-figure basic salary climbed from 536 to 617 over the past year. (In 2016, TfL had just 188 employees on a base salary of more than £100,000).
But its even worse than that. The report reveals that a total of 2,048 TfL staff received more than £100,000 once bonuses and overtime were included!
What on earth are all these people doing to deserve such salaries?
TfL still has a final salary pension scheme. The only other part of the public sector that I know of that still has such a scheme is the MP's scheme! If you are aged 60 or more when you leave your pension is payable immediately with no reduction for early payment. Try finding that sort of pension in the private sector.
Then there's the free travel for a TfL employee and a nominated partner/family member on the TfL network. That can easily be worth a couple of thousand pounds per year. Why on earth should a partner or family member get free travel?
And then let's not forget our good friends the tube drivers. The latest pay award means they will be on a base salary of nearly £80,000 a year next April. That is twice what a teacher, nurse or policeman earns. It is obscene.
I could go on. And on.
Suffice to say all the above is one of the reasons why you are paying ever higher fares and charges on London's tubes and roads.
A lot of what you say above feels very "crabs in a bucket" mentality. Worker compensation has fallen a long way behind productivity with a very clear decoupling in 2008 (after previous gradual widening since the 80's). Its no coincidence that the workers who are most organised and unionised manage to negotiate the best compensation and benefits. Just because the rest of us dont have the same negotiating power due to union busting over the last 40 odd years doesn't mean they are wrong for seeking to be paid a fair wage. Average pay has massively fallen behind in real terms over 40 years now. You have highlighted one area where its fallen slightly less behind inflation than the rest of the economy. Instead of thinking what can we learn from that to ensure fairer pay for everyone you seek to pull them down to the lowest common denominator. I believe we should be looking to them as an example of how to achieve fair pay. I just dont understand how people can look at someone else doing well (despite real terms pay cuts over quite a long period) and think so negatively about that. We should be building each other up not pitting worker against worker. Fair to criticise effectiveness of the organisation or the workers but I think to blanket attack pay is very strange.
As for tube drivers, with the huge amount of research into air quality on the tube and the health impacts of spending a lot of time on the tube I think they are grossly underpaid given we are expecting them to take years if not decades off their life for a job. Its frankly criminal the conditions we expect them to work in.
There are literally thousands of study's this one is scary:https://www.cam.ac.uk/stories/london-underground-pollution
https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/252000/largest-study-explores-impact-dust-tube/ there is the famous UCL one - "20 mins on the Northern line is as bad as smoking a cigarette"
I don’t disagree with your opening statement that they shouldn’t be criticised for being organised and maintaining their relative position but to say they are ‘grossly’ underpaid is wide of the mark.
Would you do a job that you know takes years off your life for less pay than that? I certainly wouldn't.
I stand by my statement that they are grossly under paid. Same goes for any job with large risk or health impact e.g. those who work on decommissioning nuclear power plants whose risk of cancer is massively increased. They should be massivelt compensated too.It's a personal value of mine that if people are doing a job that is slowly killing them then they should be massively compensated for that.This line amongst others stood out:
However, the researchers stress that the findings do not provide enough evidence to establish that exposure to PM2.5 directly leads to sickness absence, and that more research is needed to confirm these potential links.
This doesn’t appear to support your claim
Tube drivers have shorter life expectancy.The job of course has some negative features but positive ones too and like us all they accept the role knowing the reward structure.I stand by my assertion they are not ‘grossly’ underpaid.If you truly believe that what figure do you think is fair? And I assume you would extend to all staff in the station environment even though those staff are not paid the same as drivers.You were right to challenge me on air quality as I worded my point badly. I was trying to highlight the cab does have some features designed to offset / protect to some degree ie they aren’t abandoned without any consideration of the working environment (versus the experience for a commuter and which we may in our mind compare to).
Some pretty selective clipping of a quote from the paper there. The full quote is:"The research, led by Imperial College London, found that staff who worked in areas with higher levels of fine dust – called particulate matter (PM2.5) – also tended to report more episodes of sickness absence.However, the researchers stress that the findings do not provide enough evidence to establish that exposure to PM2.5 directly leads to sickness absence, and that more research is needed to confirm these potential links."
Sickness absence is absolutely not an indicator of the long term health impacts which is what I was referring to. As i said there is a massive body of evidence - I just selected the first couple of research papers from a journal search. Here are some more that are more focused on the long term health impacts of PM2.5 particles.
https://www.stateofglobalair.org/health/pm
Health effects attributable to long-term exposure to PM2.5 include ischemic heart disease, lung cancer, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), lower-respiratory infections (such as pneumonia), stroke, type 2 diabetes, and adverse birth outcomeshttps://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2666765724001212
https://www.epa.gov/pm-pollution/health-and-environmental-effects-particulate-matter-pm
Exposure to such particles can affect both your lungs and your heart. Numerous scientific studies have linked particle pollution exposure to a variety of problems, including:- premature death in people with heart or lung disease
- nonfatal heart attacks
- irregular heartbeat
- aggravated asthma
- decreased lung function
- increased respiratory symptoms, such as irritation of the airways, coughing or difficulty breathing.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4740125/#sec2
It was recently reported that the prevalence rate of respiratory diseases increased by 2.07%, while hospitalization rate raised by 8% accordingly, when the daily PM2.5 increased by 10 µg/m3
There are many many more journals and papers showing this direct causal link.I conceded the point on air qualityThe (original) links did not confirm Tube drivers are a group likely to die younger as you implied. And as you say many jobs expose people to different negative health factors not least of course stress in more traditional white collar roles.Regardless my comment was the use of the word ‘grossly’.I still think you exaggerate with this term (relative to many other roles) and note you haven’t quantified what you think would be fair.
How much would you want to be paid to do that role knowing it would likely take years off your life?
Furthermore the role is not definitively endangering your health any more than many other aspects of living your life.
It’s your emotive language I find issue with.Unless of course you think no reward is fair and consciously refuse to use the underground under all circumstances because of the unfair risk to customers and staff.It may not be ideal but nothing is.
Again: How much would you want to be paid to do that role knowing it would likely take years off your life?
The evidence on spending large amounts of time in conditions with those levels of air quality are pretty conclusive.
Nice attempt to bring in a slippery slope fallacy. Of course I use the tube when I need to but 1) there is a difference between an occiasional 20 minute journey when needed (genuinely once a month or so for me) and spending 8-12 hours a day, day after day in those conditions. The research is very clear that long exposure to those conditions has a greater impact on health. 2) I moved somewhere I wouldnt need the tube for my commute or regular journeys, I get a train and then walk 20 mins (half through a park) to get to work. The only time I've lived somewhere I would need a tube was during Covid when I wasnt commuting anyway. 3) One is able to suggest we should improve society whilst still participating in society. Attempting to use someones participation to undermine their argument is a poor attempt at distraction.
Yes nothing is ideal - but back to my oiriginal point. Criticising tube drivers for what they are being paid is very "crabs in a bucket" mentality even more so when you consider their working conditions and the impacts that will have on their health. Why do people feel the need to pull others down to their level?If you believe that then I think it’s fair to ask you to suggest what the fair sum is. I did not ask what you would want.I think the salary is already more than fair for the role in answer your question.
You are avoiding my challenge by not responding directly.I think in reality you know ‘grossly’ was the wrong term and you are doubling down to evade the question but you are clear you wouldn’t do it for any sum. That however is a different point.
I am not avoiding challenge I just don't think that is a valid way of framing the argument. I have put my view on the matter across very clearly. Tbh in a hypothetical where I was the employer I wouldnt be wanting to ask anyone to work in those conditions, I'd be looking for ways to automate the roles with poor conditions and to emply those people instead to remotely monitor and control the tubes and network as is done in other countries.
You still havent answered whether you would be willing to do that much harm to your body for that pay?
Its one job where the pay has kept up with inflation since 1980. Just because the rest of us have had effective pay cuts does not mean we should try to pull those down to our level.0 -
There is always that possibility, however unlikely it seems.ShootersHillGuru said:
Or perhaps people think he’s done a good job and worth re electing.CaptainRobbo said:
Not in the slightest, was just making a point that you don't have to be good at your job to keep it.cantersaddick said:
Am no fan of Khan and I dont agree that getting electected 3 times is necessarily a good measure of whether someone has done a good job.CaptainRobbo said:
Sometimes you wish you could LOL a post multiple times.jose said:I have credit on the Dartford charge just in case I find myself using that crossing.
I wish there was a single simplified system to cover it all, ULEZ, congestion, and river crossings. As well as the totally incomprehensible nationwide car parking systems, and for any fines.
If there were such a system I would scrape together something like £50 credit to avoid stress when interacting with those systems.
In the face of all this nerd generated malarkey I wish we could get back to simple and straightforward cash.
Sadiq Khant has done a good job as Mayor, he has been elected three times. I live around the corner from the late Ella Adoo Kissi Debra hard by the South Circular, and the death of the poor girl has led to cleaner air round my way thanks to the action of Khan and his team.
Vladimir Putin keeps getting elected too.
But are you genuinely suggesting Khan has rigged elections in the same way Putin has?
Probably says more about the apathy of voters, that he is still in power and also a slur on the other political parties for not running credible alternatives against him at election time.
Haven't worked in London since covid, through choice and happy to keep it that way.1 -
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The reason tube drivers get grief is because they are paid at least twice the salary someone like a teacher or a nurse is, and fundamentally they can be replaced. We've already shown with the DLR that trains can run autonomously, as well as many other automated lines and metros across the world. Sure the conditions are crap, it's monotonous, the air isn't great and someone might dive in front of you, but if that's a reason to pay them so much more, then the same arguement should be used to pay other professions much more.
Them throwing a hissy fit 3x a year and fucking up the whole system for days at a time doesn't help their image either tbh6 -
You're so so close bro.sam3110 said:The reason tube drivers get grief is because they are paid at least twice the salary someone like a teacher or a nurse is, and fundamentally they can be replaced. We've already shown with the DLR that trains can run autonomously, as well as many other automated lines and metros across the world. Sure the conditions are crap, it's monotonous, the air isn't great and someone might dive in front of you, but if that's a reason to pay them so much more, then the same arguement should be used to pay other professions much more.
Them throwing a hissy fit 3x a year and fucking up the whole system for days at a time doesn't help their image either tbh3 -
I think when it comes to Tube driver's earning tens of thousands more than say the police, fire brigade and nurses for instance many including myself see them as being overpaid.ShootersHillGuru said:I’m always astounded by the number of people who resent other workers earning a good wage. What’s wrong with thinking well done them. Instead we get the green eyed monster.5 -
My own hypothesis which isn't tested. But having spent most of my 20s in "London proper" and then moving to a outer Borough I have a theory that there is a massive difference in how people "see London" between those who live and breathe London (work there, have friends there, socialise there basically all their life is there) vs those who live in outer boroughs or commuter towns and commute in for work but the rest of their life is out of London.CaptainRobbo said:
There is always that possibility, however unlikely it seems.ShootersHillGuru said:
Or perhaps people think he’s done a good job and worth re electing.CaptainRobbo said:
Not in the slightest, was just making a point that you don't have to be good at your job to keep it.cantersaddick said:
Am no fan of Khan and I dont agree that getting electected 3 times is necessarily a good measure of whether someone has done a good job.CaptainRobbo said:
Sometimes you wish you could LOL a post multiple times.jose said:I have credit on the Dartford charge just in case I find myself using that crossing.
I wish there was a single simplified system to cover it all, ULEZ, congestion, and river crossings. As well as the totally incomprehensible nationwide car parking systems, and for any fines.
If there were such a system I would scrape together something like £50 credit to avoid stress when interacting with those systems.
In the face of all this nerd generated malarkey I wish we could get back to simple and straightforward cash.
Sadiq Khant has done a good job as Mayor, he has been elected three times. I live around the corner from the late Ella Adoo Kissi Debra hard by the South Circular, and the death of the poor girl has led to cleaner air round my way thanks to the action of Khan and his team.
Vladimir Putin keeps getting elected too.
But are you genuinely suggesting Khan has rigged elections in the same way Putin has?
Probably says more about the apathy of voters, that he is still in power and also a slur on the other political parties for not running credible alternatives against him at election time.
Haven't worked in London since covid, through choice and happy to keep it that way.
The view that these groups have about how good London is, how safe it is and just generally what it's like is massively different.4 -
You're saying everyones pay should have kept up with inflation instead of 50 years of tax cuts for corporations and the rich under Neo-Liberalism? and that we should value those who deliver services in the real functional economy much higher?blackpool72 said:
I think when it comes to Tube driver's earning tens of thousands more than say the police, fire brigade and nurses for instance many including myself see them as being overpaid.ShootersHillGuru said:I’m always astounded by the number of people who resent other workers earning a good wage. What’s wrong with thinking well done them. Instead we get the green eyed monster.
Welcome to Leftism Sir. Good to have you onboard.
2 -
Since he was elected, my experience of living and working in London has improved significantlyShootersHillGuru said:
Or perhaps people think he’s done a good job and worth re electing.CaptainRobbo said:
Not in the slightest, was just making a point that you don't have to be good at your job to keep it.cantersaddick said:
Am no fan of Khan and I dont agree that getting electected 3 times is necessarily a good measure of whether someone has done a good job.CaptainRobbo said:
Sometimes you wish you could LOL a post multiple times.jose said:I have credit on the Dartford charge just in case I find myself using that crossing.
I wish there was a single simplified system to cover it all, ULEZ, congestion, and river crossings. As well as the totally incomprehensible nationwide car parking systems, and for any fines.
If there were such a system I would scrape together something like £50 credit to avoid stress when interacting with those systems.
In the face of all this nerd generated malarkey I wish we could get back to simple and straightforward cash.
Sadiq Khant has done a good job as Mayor, he has been elected three times. I live around the corner from the late Ella Adoo Kissi Debra hard by the South Circular, and the death of the poor girl has led to cleaner air round my way thanks to the action of Khan and his team.
Vladimir Putin keeps getting elected too.
But are you genuinely suggesting Khan has rigged elections in the same way Putin has?
Probably says more about the apathy of voters, that he is still in power and also a slur on the other political parties for not running credible alternatives against him at election time.
3 -
I'm guessing that you are a tube driver then 🤔Leeds_Addick said:
Since he was elected, my experience of living and working in London has improved significantlyShootersHillGuru said:
Or perhaps people think he’s done a good job and worth re electing.CaptainRobbo said:
Not in the slightest, was just making a point that you don't have to be good at your job to keep it.cantersaddick said:
Am no fan of Khan and I dont agree that getting electected 3 times is necessarily a good measure of whether someone has done a good job.CaptainRobbo said:
Sometimes you wish you could LOL a post multiple times.jose said:I have credit on the Dartford charge just in case I find myself using that crossing.
I wish there was a single simplified system to cover it all, ULEZ, congestion, and river crossings. As well as the totally incomprehensible nationwide car parking systems, and for any fines.
If there were such a system I would scrape together something like £50 credit to avoid stress when interacting with those systems.
In the face of all this nerd generated malarkey I wish we could get back to simple and straightforward cash.
Sadiq Khant has done a good job as Mayor, he has been elected three times. I live around the corner from the late Ella Adoo Kissi Debra hard by the South Circular, and the death of the poor girl has led to cleaner air round my way thanks to the action of Khan and his team.
Vladimir Putin keeps getting elected too.
But are you genuinely suggesting Khan has rigged elections in the same way Putin has?
Probably says more about the apathy of voters, that he is still in power and also a slur on the other political parties for not running credible alternatives against him at election time.9 -
Lucky for you.Leeds_Addick said:
Since he was elected, my experience of living and working in London has improved significantlyShootersHillGuru said:
Or perhaps people think he’s done a good job and worth re electing.CaptainRobbo said:
Not in the slightest, was just making a point that you don't have to be good at your job to keep it.cantersaddick said:
Am no fan of Khan and I dont agree that getting electected 3 times is necessarily a good measure of whether someone has done a good job.CaptainRobbo said:
Sometimes you wish you could LOL a post multiple times.jose said:I have credit on the Dartford charge just in case I find myself using that crossing.
I wish there was a single simplified system to cover it all, ULEZ, congestion, and river crossings. As well as the totally incomprehensible nationwide car parking systems, and for any fines.
If there were such a system I would scrape together something like £50 credit to avoid stress when interacting with those systems.
In the face of all this nerd generated malarkey I wish we could get back to simple and straightforward cash.
Sadiq Khant has done a good job as Mayor, he has been elected three times. I live around the corner from the late Ella Adoo Kissi Debra hard by the South Circular, and the death of the poor girl has led to cleaner air round my way thanks to the action of Khan and his team.
Vladimir Putin keeps getting elected too.
But are you genuinely suggesting Khan has rigged elections in the same way Putin has?
Probably says more about the apathy of voters, that he is still in power and also a slur on the other political parties for not running credible alternatives against him at election time.
In the last few years:-
I have had my car nicked. Never got it back. Police weren't remotely interested.
My sister got burgled. Fortunately they were disturbed and not much taken. Police not remotely interested.
I know 3 people personally who have had their phones nicked as they walked down the street. Anecdotally, I have heard of many more. Police not remotely interested.
Chap over the road had his catalytic converter stolen from his car. More recently, 3 cars in a night were done in my street and had their catalytic converters nicked. Police not remotely interested.
Friend of my wife had her purse stolen whilst out shopping. Police did come this time, said they thought there was a gang of Rumanians around but no-one was ever caught.
That's the reality of life for many in London.6 -
Or are the police, fire brigade and nurses underpaid. It’s worth a thought.blackpool72 said:
I think when it comes to Tube driver's earning tens of thousands more than say the police, fire brigade and nurses for instance many including myself see them as being overpaid.ShootersHillGuru said:I’m always astounded by the number of people who resent other workers earning a good wage. What’s wrong with thinking well done them. Instead we get the green eyed monster.5 -
I thought I did answer. Yes I’d do the job at that salary. The risk to health is acceptable.cantersaddick said:
Yes and I've said i dont think a number can be put on it because I fundamentally believe people shouldnt be put in a position that puts their health at risk for a job. I didn't realise that was a controversial value to hold.valleynick66 said:
To repeat. You used the word to suggest £80k is being underpaid.cantersaddick said:
Why must I have a figure in mind? Grossly can simply be to give a sense of scale. People make choices based on their material conditions but for me personally you could double that salary and I still wouldnt want to do that damage to my health. I'd say that justifies grossly.valleynick66 said:
If you say ‘grossly’ you must surely have a figure in mind. Otherwise why conclude grossly?cantersaddick said:
The reason I havent quantified what would be fair is because for me I can't think of an amount of money that would make me want to do that job knowing about the health impacts of spending time in that environment. Maybe that's coming from a position of privilege as I already have a high paid job that doesn't endanger my health. But I genuinely can't put an amount on how much I'd need to be paid to do it.valleynick66 said:
I really wasn’t being selective - I think that’s your bias. It stood out from what you provided.cantersaddick said:
Cabs have that on newer trains and lines - the majority of older lines its usual to see drivers with windows open so I doubt cab air quality is any different.valleynick66 said:
Yes I looked at the links you shared.cantersaddick said:
You are aware the air quality is the same in the cab I assume? And if you'd read my post you'd know that air quality is the key factor in taking years off their lives.valleynick66 said:
You are aware that conditions in the drivers cab are better than for commuters I assume?cantersaddick said:
I'm not doubting any of that is true. I'm sure it is. I am questioning why its relevant though? the conversation was about TfL's debt position and that it was for infrastructure investment and that they are running an operating surplus. They must be doing well if they are paying all that and still running an operating surplus for the last 3 years. The toll on blackwall (and silvertown) was a condition of the loan from central government to pay for the silvertown tunell to be built. I suspect the increases in tolls are being driven by that same agreement.Fortune 82nd Minute said:I usually avoid getting into discussions like this on here like the plague but as someone who has spent his life working in the transport field, TfL is like a red flag to a bull to me!
TfL is without doubt the last dinosaur in the public sector. It is hopelessly over-manned and the salaries paid are ludicrously sky high. It is long overdue to be modernised. Indeed, anyone could go in there and cut costs by 30% without affecting its running.
Don't believe me? Well here's a few facts.The number of TfL workers earning a basic salary of more than £100,000 increased by more than 15% in the last financial year. Data published in TfL's latest remuneration report shows the number of staff with a six-figure basic salary climbed from 536 to 617 over the past year. (In 2016, TfL had just 188 employees on a base salary of more than £100,000).
But its even worse than that. The report reveals that a total of 2,048 TfL staff received more than £100,000 once bonuses and overtime were included!
What on earth are all these people doing to deserve such salaries?
TfL still has a final salary pension scheme. The only other part of the public sector that I know of that still has such a scheme is the MP's scheme! If you are aged 60 or more when you leave your pension is payable immediately with no reduction for early payment. Try finding that sort of pension in the private sector.
Then there's the free travel for a TfL employee and a nominated partner/family member on the TfL network. That can easily be worth a couple of thousand pounds per year. Why on earth should a partner or family member get free travel?
And then let's not forget our good friends the tube drivers. The latest pay award means they will be on a base salary of nearly £80,000 a year next April. That is twice what a teacher, nurse or policeman earns. It is obscene.
I could go on. And on.
Suffice to say all the above is one of the reasons why you are paying ever higher fares and charges on London's tubes and roads.
A lot of what you say above feels very "crabs in a bucket" mentality. Worker compensation has fallen a long way behind productivity with a very clear decoupling in 2008 (after previous gradual widening since the 80's). Its no coincidence that the workers who are most organised and unionised manage to negotiate the best compensation and benefits. Just because the rest of us dont have the same negotiating power due to union busting over the last 40 odd years doesn't mean they are wrong for seeking to be paid a fair wage. Average pay has massively fallen behind in real terms over 40 years now. You have highlighted one area where its fallen slightly less behind inflation than the rest of the economy. Instead of thinking what can we learn from that to ensure fairer pay for everyone you seek to pull them down to the lowest common denominator. I believe we should be looking to them as an example of how to achieve fair pay. I just dont understand how people can look at someone else doing well (despite real terms pay cuts over quite a long period) and think so negatively about that. We should be building each other up not pitting worker against worker. Fair to criticise effectiveness of the organisation or the workers but I think to blanket attack pay is very strange.
As for tube drivers, with the huge amount of research into air quality on the tube and the health impacts of spending a lot of time on the tube I think they are grossly underpaid given we are expecting them to take years if not decades off their life for a job. Its frankly criminal the conditions we expect them to work in.
There are literally thousands of study's this one is scary:https://www.cam.ac.uk/stories/london-underground-pollution
https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/252000/largest-study-explores-impact-dust-tube/ there is the famous UCL one - "20 mins on the Northern line is as bad as smoking a cigarette"
I don’t disagree with your opening statement that they shouldn’t be criticised for being organised and maintaining their relative position but to say they are ‘grossly’ underpaid is wide of the mark.
Would you do a job that you know takes years off your life for less pay than that? I certainly wouldn't.
I stand by my statement that they are grossly under paid. Same goes for any job with large risk or health impact e.g. those who work on decommissioning nuclear power plants whose risk of cancer is massively increased. They should be massivelt compensated too.It's a personal value of mine that if people are doing a job that is slowly killing them then they should be massively compensated for that.This line amongst others stood out:
However, the researchers stress that the findings do not provide enough evidence to establish that exposure to PM2.5 directly leads to sickness absence, and that more research is needed to confirm these potential links.
This doesn’t appear to support your claim
Tube drivers have shorter life expectancy.The job of course has some negative features but positive ones too and like us all they accept the role knowing the reward structure.I stand by my assertion they are not ‘grossly’ underpaid.If you truly believe that what figure do you think is fair? And I assume you would extend to all staff in the station environment even though those staff are not paid the same as drivers.You were right to challenge me on air quality as I worded my point badly. I was trying to highlight the cab does have some features designed to offset / protect to some degree ie they aren’t abandoned without any consideration of the working environment (versus the experience for a commuter and which we may in our mind compare to).
Some pretty selective clipping of a quote from the paper there. The full quote is:"The research, led by Imperial College London, found that staff who worked in areas with higher levels of fine dust – called particulate matter (PM2.5) – also tended to report more episodes of sickness absence.However, the researchers stress that the findings do not provide enough evidence to establish that exposure to PM2.5 directly leads to sickness absence, and that more research is needed to confirm these potential links."
Sickness absence is absolutely not an indicator of the long term health impacts which is what I was referring to. As i said there is a massive body of evidence - I just selected the first couple of research papers from a journal search. Here are some more that are more focused on the long term health impacts of PM2.5 particles.
https://www.stateofglobalair.org/health/pm
Health effects attributable to long-term exposure to PM2.5 include ischemic heart disease, lung cancer, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), lower-respiratory infections (such as pneumonia), stroke, type 2 diabetes, and adverse birth outcomeshttps://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2666765724001212
https://www.epa.gov/pm-pollution/health-and-environmental-effects-particulate-matter-pm
Exposure to such particles can affect both your lungs and your heart. Numerous scientific studies have linked particle pollution exposure to a variety of problems, including:- premature death in people with heart or lung disease
- nonfatal heart attacks
- irregular heartbeat
- aggravated asthma
- decreased lung function
- increased respiratory symptoms, such as irritation of the airways, coughing or difficulty breathing.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4740125/#sec2
It was recently reported that the prevalence rate of respiratory diseases increased by 2.07%, while hospitalization rate raised by 8% accordingly, when the daily PM2.5 increased by 10 µg/m3
There are many many more journals and papers showing this direct causal link.I conceded the point on air qualityThe (original) links did not confirm Tube drivers are a group likely to die younger as you implied. And as you say many jobs expose people to different negative health factors not least of course stress in more traditional white collar roles.Regardless my comment was the use of the word ‘grossly’.I still think you exaggerate with this term (relative to many other roles) and note you haven’t quantified what you think would be fair.
How much would you want to be paid to do that role knowing it would likely take years off your life?
Furthermore the role is not definitively endangering your health any more than many other aspects of living your life.
It’s your emotive language I find issue with.Unless of course you think no reward is fair and consciously refuse to use the underground under all circumstances because of the unfair risk to customers and staff.It may not be ideal but nothing is.
Again: How much would you want to be paid to do that role knowing it would likely take years off your life?
The evidence on spending large amounts of time in conditions with those levels of air quality are pretty conclusive.
Nice attempt to bring in a slippery slope fallacy. Of course I use the tube when I need to but 1) there is a difference between an occiasional 20 minute journey when needed (genuinely once a month or so for me) and spending 8-12 hours a day, day after day in those conditions. The research is very clear that long exposure to those conditions has a greater impact on health. 2) I moved somewhere I wouldnt need the tube for my commute or regular journeys, I get a train and then walk 20 mins (half through a park) to get to work. The only time I've lived somewhere I would need a tube was during Covid when I wasnt commuting anyway. 3) One is able to suggest we should improve society whilst still participating in society. Attempting to use someones participation to undermine their argument is a poor attempt at distraction.
Yes nothing is ideal - but back to my oiriginal point. Criticising tube drivers for what they are being paid is very "crabs in a bucket" mentality even more so when you consider their working conditions and the impacts that will have on their health. Why do people feel the need to pull others down to their level?If you believe that then I think it’s fair to ask you to suggest what the fair sum is. I did not ask what you would want.I think the salary is already more than fair for the role in answer your question.
You are avoiding my challenge by not responding directly.I think in reality you know ‘grossly’ was the wrong term and you are doubling down to evade the question but you are clear you wouldn’t do it for any sum. That however is a different point.
I am not avoiding challenge I just don't think that is a valid way of framing the argument. I have put my view on the matter across very clearly. Tbh in a hypothetical where I was the employer I wouldnt be wanting to ask anyone to work in those conditions, I'd be looking for ways to automate the roles with poor conditions and to emply those people instead to remotely monitor and control the tubes and network as is done in other countries.
You still havent answered whether you would be willing to do that much harm to your body for that pay?
It’s one job where the pay has kept up with inflation since 1980. Just because the rest of us have had effective pay cuts does not mean we should try to pull those down to our level.0 -
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-
Out of interest, what's changed. Clean air?Leeds_Addick said:
Since he was elected, my experience of living and working in London has improved significantlyShootersHillGuru said:
Or perhaps people think he’s done a good job and worth re electing.CaptainRobbo said:
Not in the slightest, was just making a point that you don't have to be good at your job to keep it.cantersaddick said:
Am no fan of Khan and I dont agree that getting electected 3 times is necessarily a good measure of whether someone has done a good job.CaptainRobbo said:
Sometimes you wish you could LOL a post multiple times.jose said:I have credit on the Dartford charge just in case I find myself using that crossing.
I wish there was a single simplified system to cover it all, ULEZ, congestion, and river crossings. As well as the totally incomprehensible nationwide car parking systems, and for any fines.
If there were such a system I would scrape together something like £50 credit to avoid stress when interacting with those systems.
In the face of all this nerd generated malarkey I wish we could get back to simple and straightforward cash.
Sadiq Khant has done a good job as Mayor, he has been elected three times. I live around the corner from the late Ella Adoo Kissi Debra hard by the South Circular, and the death of the poor girl has led to cleaner air round my way thanks to the action of Khan and his team.
Vladimir Putin keeps getting elected too.
But are you genuinely suggesting Khan has rigged elections in the same way Putin has?
Probably says more about the apathy of voters, that he is still in power and also a slur on the other political parties for not running credible alternatives against him at election time.1 -
Don't doubt any of this but just adding my experience below.Fortune 82nd Minute said:
Lucky for you.Leeds_Addick said:
Since he was elected, my experience of living and working in London has improved significantlyShootersHillGuru said:
Or perhaps people think he’s done a good job and worth re electing.CaptainRobbo said:
Not in the slightest, was just making a point that you don't have to be good at your job to keep it.cantersaddick said:
Am no fan of Khan and I dont agree that getting electected 3 times is necessarily a good measure of whether someone has done a good job.CaptainRobbo said:
Sometimes you wish you could LOL a post multiple times.jose said:I have credit on the Dartford charge just in case I find myself using that crossing.
I wish there was a single simplified system to cover it all, ULEZ, congestion, and river crossings. As well as the totally incomprehensible nationwide car parking systems, and for any fines.
If there were such a system I would scrape together something like £50 credit to avoid stress when interacting with those systems.
In the face of all this nerd generated malarkey I wish we could get back to simple and straightforward cash.
Sadiq Khant has done a good job as Mayor, he has been elected three times. I live around the corner from the late Ella Adoo Kissi Debra hard by the South Circular, and the death of the poor girl has led to cleaner air round my way thanks to the action of Khan and his team.
Vladimir Putin keeps getting elected too.
But are you genuinely suggesting Khan has rigged elections in the same way Putin has?
Probably says more about the apathy of voters, that he is still in power and also a slur on the other political parties for not running credible alternatives against him at election time.
In the last few years:-
I have had my car nicked. Never got it back. Police weren't remotely interested.
My sister got burgled. Fortunately they were disturbed and not much taken. Police not remotely interested.
I know 3 people personally who have had their phones nicked as they walked down the street. Anecdotally, I have heard of many more. Police not remotely interested.
Chap over the road had his catalytic converter stolen from his car. More recently, 3 cars in a night were done in my street and had their catalytic converters nicked. Police not remotely interested.
Friend of my wife had her purse stolen whilst out shopping. Police did come this time, said they thought there was a gang of Rumanians around but no-one was ever caught.
That's the reality of life for many in London.
Attempted break in soon after we bought our house. They didn't actually get in or take anything but did cause some damage. Police were excellent. Immediate reaponse, multiple officers attended the next day and went door to door checking cctv and doorbell cameras and statements from neighbours (one confronted the would-be burgler). Victim impact statement was taken and a security consultant (or some similar title) was sent out to advise on how to ensure the house was secure and set our minds at ease going forwards.
Genuinely brilliant service and can't fault it.1 -
If I were to pick 3 things:O-Randy-Hunt said:
Out of interest, what's changed. Clean air?Leeds_Addick said:
Since he was elected, my experience of living and working in London has improved significantlyShootersHillGuru said:
Or perhaps people think he’s done a good job and worth re electing.CaptainRobbo said:
Not in the slightest, was just making a point that you don't have to be good at your job to keep it.cantersaddick said:
Am no fan of Khan and I dont agree that getting electected 3 times is necessarily a good measure of whether someone has done a good job.CaptainRobbo said:
Sometimes you wish you could LOL a post multiple times.jose said:I have credit on the Dartford charge just in case I find myself using that crossing.
I wish there was a single simplified system to cover it all, ULEZ, congestion, and river crossings. As well as the totally incomprehensible nationwide car parking systems, and for any fines.
If there were such a system I would scrape together something like £50 credit to avoid stress when interacting with those systems.
In the face of all this nerd generated malarkey I wish we could get back to simple and straightforward cash.
Sadiq Khant has done a good job as Mayor, he has been elected three times. I live around the corner from the late Ella Adoo Kissi Debra hard by the South Circular, and the death of the poor girl has led to cleaner air round my way thanks to the action of Khan and his team.
Vladimir Putin keeps getting elected too.
But are you genuinely suggesting Khan has rigged elections in the same way Putin has?
Probably says more about the apathy of voters, that he is still in power and also a slur on the other political parties for not running credible alternatives against him at election time.
In my experience it's safer - I was robbed on the street 5 times between 2006 and 2012 and I've never felt as unsafe since I moved back in 2017
Public transport is better. The SL4, Elizabeth line and night tube make life much easier.
Cycling infrastructure is amazing and I can pretty much get anywhere I need to without cycling alongside cars.
Could be others as well but I generally don't have much to complain about. It's an amazing city to live in.2 -
Perhaps if we had a tube line running from Bromley to N London I wouldn't I wouldn't have to use the thieving Blackwall Tunnelusetobunkin said:
Train Drivers happy to have above inflation pay rise. Funded by OAP having £500 nicked off them.Leroy Ambrose said:
Jealousy, mainlyThreadKiller said:Good luck to the tube drivers, I don't really understand the ill feeling towards them
2 -
I mean its not like a difficult job.....they drive a vehicle that sits on rails fgs. Can't really go off course can they 🤣🤣🤣🤣blackpool72 said:
I think when it comes to Tube driver's earning tens of thousands more than say the police, fire brigade and nurses for instance many including myself see them as being overpaid.ShootersHillGuru said:I’m always astounded by the number of people who resent other workers earning a good wage. What’s wrong with thinking well done them. Instead we get the green eyed monster.1 -
A moment's lapse of configuration or disorientation in the tunnels and a hundred people are dead! You need a partner who will take care of sick children so you don't have to worry about phoning a hospital as soon as your shift finishes. Maybe the salary reflects the fact that you really need to be the only breadwinner in your family.
Not the same as driving a bus which you can just stop if in doubt. You can't just "stop" a tube train going at forty miles per hour.
And then you have to deal with emergencies on your own with backup a few minutes away. I was in a tube where a fight broke out in my carriage. The driver stopped the train, opened the door next to me. Believe me he was terrified!0 -
Ok you've convinced me! As you are getting robbed less these days and you can cycle everywhere, all is well with the world!Leeds_Addick said:
If I were to pick 3 things:O-Randy-Hunt said:
Out of interest, what's changed. Clean air?Leeds_Addick said:
Since he was elected, my experience of living and working in London has improved significantlyShootersHillGuru said:
Or perhaps people think he’s done a good job and worth re electing.CaptainRobbo said:
Not in the slightest, was just making a point that you don't have to be good at your job to keep it.cantersaddick said:
Am no fan of Khan and I dont agree that getting electected 3 times is necessarily a good measure of whether someone has done a good job.CaptainRobbo said:
Sometimes you wish you could LOL a post multiple times.jose said:I have credit on the Dartford charge just in case I find myself using that crossing.
I wish there was a single simplified system to cover it all, ULEZ, congestion, and river crossings. As well as the totally incomprehensible nationwide car parking systems, and for any fines.
If there were such a system I would scrape together something like £50 credit to avoid stress when interacting with those systems.
In the face of all this nerd generated malarkey I wish we could get back to simple and straightforward cash.
Sadiq Khant has done a good job as Mayor, he has been elected three times. I live around the corner from the late Ella Adoo Kissi Debra hard by the South Circular, and the death of the poor girl has led to cleaner air round my way thanks to the action of Khan and his team.
Vladimir Putin keeps getting elected too.
But are you genuinely suggesting Khan has rigged elections in the same way Putin has?
Probably says more about the apathy of voters, that he is still in power and also a slur on the other political parties for not running credible alternatives against him at election time.
In my experience it's safer - I was robbed on the street 5 times between 2006 and 2012 and I've never felt as unsafe since I moved back in 2017
Public transport is better. The SL4, Elizabeth line and night tube make life much easier.
Cycling infrastructure is amazing and I can pretty much get anywhere I need to without cycling alongside cars.
Could be others as well but I generally don't have much to complain about. It's an amazing city to live in.
Just out of interest, do you still live in the same area now as you did from 2006 - 2012?3 -
I wasn't trying to convince you, just describing how my experience living in London has improved since he was elected.Fortune 82nd Minute said:
Ok you've convinced me! As you are getting robbed less these days and you can cycle everywhere, all is well with the world!Leeds_Addick said:
If I were to pick 3 things:O-Randy-Hunt said:
Out of interest, what's changed. Clean air?Leeds_Addick said:
Since he was elected, my experience of living and working in London has improved significantlyShootersHillGuru said:
Or perhaps people think he’s done a good job and worth re electing.CaptainRobbo said:
Not in the slightest, was just making a point that you don't have to be good at your job to keep it.cantersaddick said:
Am no fan of Khan and I dont agree that getting electected 3 times is necessarily a good measure of whether someone has done a good job.CaptainRobbo said:
Sometimes you wish you could LOL a post multiple times.jose said:I have credit on the Dartford charge just in case I find myself using that crossing.
I wish there was a single simplified system to cover it all, ULEZ, congestion, and river crossings. As well as the totally incomprehensible nationwide car parking systems, and for any fines.
If there were such a system I would scrape together something like £50 credit to avoid stress when interacting with those systems.
In the face of all this nerd generated malarkey I wish we could get back to simple and straightforward cash.
Sadiq Khant has done a good job as Mayor, he has been elected three times. I live around the corner from the late Ella Adoo Kissi Debra hard by the South Circular, and the death of the poor girl has led to cleaner air round my way thanks to the action of Khan and his team.
Vladimir Putin keeps getting elected too.
But are you genuinely suggesting Khan has rigged elections in the same way Putin has?
Probably says more about the apathy of voters, that he is still in power and also a slur on the other political parties for not running credible alternatives against him at election time.
In my experience it's safer - I was robbed on the street 5 times between 2006 and 2012 and I've never felt as unsafe since I moved back in 2017
Public transport is better. The SL4, Elizabeth line and night tube make life much easier.
Cycling infrastructure is amazing and I can pretty much get anywhere I need to without cycling alongside cars.
Could be others as well but I generally don't have much to complain about. It's an amazing city to live in.
Just out of interest, do you still live in the same area now as you did from 2006 - 2012?
Pretty much exactly the same area yeah, I now live just over 1km from where I did back then2 -
Robbed on the street 5 times in 6 years before Lord Khan and not been robbed since? Crikey. He must be doing something right.Leeds_Addick said:
If I were to pick 3 things:O-Randy-Hunt said:
Out of interest, what's changed. Clean air?Leeds_Addick said:
Since he was elected, my experience of living and working in London has improved significantlyShootersHillGuru said:
Or perhaps people think he’s done a good job and worth re electing.CaptainRobbo said:
Not in the slightest, was just making a point that you don't have to be good at your job to keep it.cantersaddick said:
Am no fan of Khan and I dont agree that getting electected 3 times is necessarily a good measure of whether someone has done a good job.CaptainRobbo said:
Sometimes you wish you could LOL a post multiple times.jose said:I have credit on the Dartford charge just in case I find myself using that crossing.
I wish there was a single simplified system to cover it all, ULEZ, congestion, and river crossings. As well as the totally incomprehensible nationwide car parking systems, and for any fines.
If there were such a system I would scrape together something like £50 credit to avoid stress when interacting with those systems.
In the face of all this nerd generated malarkey I wish we could get back to simple and straightforward cash.
Sadiq Khant has done a good job as Mayor, he has been elected three times. I live around the corner from the late Ella Adoo Kissi Debra hard by the South Circular, and the death of the poor girl has led to cleaner air round my way thanks to the action of Khan and his team.
Vladimir Putin keeps getting elected too.
But are you genuinely suggesting Khan has rigged elections in the same way Putin has?
Probably says more about the apathy of voters, that he is still in power and also a slur on the other political parties for not running credible alternatives against him at election time.
In my experience it's safer - I was robbed on the street 5 times between 2006 and 2012 and I've never felt as unsafe since I moved back in 2017
Public transport is better. The SL4, Elizabeth line and night tube make life much easier.
Cycling infrastructure is amazing and I can pretty much get anywhere I need to without cycling alongside cars.
Could be others as well but I generally don't have much to complain about. It's an amazing city to live in.0 -
What area(s) were you robbed in mate?Leeds_Addick said:
If I were to pick 3 things:O-Randy-Hunt said:
Out of interest, what's changed. Clean air?Leeds_Addick said:
Since he was elected, my experience of living and working in London has improved significantlyShootersHillGuru said:
Or perhaps people think he’s done a good job and worth re electing.CaptainRobbo said:
Not in the slightest, was just making a point that you don't have to be good at your job to keep it.cantersaddick said:
Am no fan of Khan and I dont agree that getting electected 3 times is necessarily a good measure of whether someone has done a good job.CaptainRobbo said:
Sometimes you wish you could LOL a post multiple times.jose said:I have credit on the Dartford charge just in case I find myself using that crossing.
I wish there was a single simplified system to cover it all, ULEZ, congestion, and river crossings. As well as the totally incomprehensible nationwide car parking systems, and for any fines.
If there were such a system I would scrape together something like £50 credit to avoid stress when interacting with those systems.
In the face of all this nerd generated malarkey I wish we could get back to simple and straightforward cash.
Sadiq Khant has done a good job as Mayor, he has been elected three times. I live around the corner from the late Ella Adoo Kissi Debra hard by the South Circular, and the death of the poor girl has led to cleaner air round my way thanks to the action of Khan and his team.
Vladimir Putin keeps getting elected too.
But are you genuinely suggesting Khan has rigged elections in the same way Putin has?
Probably says more about the apathy of voters, that he is still in power and also a slur on the other political parties for not running credible alternatives against him at election time.
In my experience it's safer - I was robbed on the street 5 times between 2006 and 2012 and I've never felt as unsafe since I moved back in 2017
Public transport is better. The SL4, Elizabeth line and night tube make life much easier.
Cycling infrastructure is amazing and I can pretty much get anywhere I need to without cycling alongside cars.
Could be others as well but I generally don't have much to complain about. It's an amazing city to live in.
It’s mad how it works out. I’m 56, have lived in London all my life and only personally know one person who has ever been mugged.0
