I just find this heartbreaking such little kids I have young grandkids and I know how I would feel if something happened to them. Guns are designed to kill and as such should be controlled. I work for a US company and quite a number of my colleagues neither own a gun or approve of owning guns but there are others who have a small arsenal at home. But I do agree with the other posters I seriously doubt that the US government will take any steps to control guns hence this will happen again the future without doubt.
I did camp america a few years ago and knocked about with a few of the local lads that were on camp. I would frequently get asked what gun I owned which I would respond SuperSoaker2000. On nights out the american lads would often talk about what gun they owned and what one they are saving up for like it was some kind of fashion accessory. I found it shocking but it was just the norm for them.
I have no answers to the problem as I think if the laws changed and americans were not allowed fire arms then crime would probably rise as criminals would see this as a opportunity to break in to houses with a smaller risk of being shot at.
I think because of the volume of guns in US and the fact that alot of americans believe having a firearm is a good thing it would take at least 100 + years for america to get to the same stage as to what its like in the UK.
Banning guns is not the answer purely because "open carry" is still perfectly legal in some US states and it would take very long time to go from one to the other. I think that this is definetly the time though to have an amnesty to give people the chance to chuck in their automatic weapons as I can't see any reason why anyone needs them at home. The fact that the cretin who commited this despicable crime used a hunting rifle is purely down to the fact that the owner, his mother, didn't have the weapon or the ammunition stored safely. In my opinion.
If Obama has the bollox he should change the constition. He has 4 years and its a win win. If he looses the fight he is still seen as the good guy the the Repulicans the bad guys.
Banning guns is not the answer purely because "open carry" is still perfectly legal in some US states and it would take very long time to go from one to the other. I think that this is definetly the time though to have an amnesty to give people the chance to chuck in their automatic weapons as I can't see any reason why anyone needs them at home. The fact that the cretin who commited this despicable crime used a hunting rifle is purely down to the fact that the owner, his mother, didn't have the weapon or the ammunition stored safely. In my opinion.
If only the first victim had had a gun then she could have stopped the killer.
Only she was armed. She had four guns including an assult rifle which her son killed her with and then when on to kill many more.
Not many mothers would shoot their sons, would they?
Turns out she was shot in her bed.
Which just shows how flawed the "If everyone is armed then these killers would be stopped" argument is.
I'm sure most mothers wouldn't dream of shooting their sons but then again how many sons would shoot their mother? One at least.
The stats from 2006 show that
"For the incidents in which the relationships were known, 76.8 percent of the victims knew their killers and 23.2 percent were slain by strangers. Among the incidents in which the victims knew their killers, 29.8 percent were murdered by family members and 70.2 percent were killed by acquaintances. (Based on Table 2.11.) The 2004 data also revealed that 33.0 percent of female victims were killed by their husbands or boyfriends, and 2.7 percent of the male victims were slain by their wives or girlfriends. (Based on Tables 2.4 and 2.11.)" http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offenses_reported/violent_crime/murder.html
So inter-family murder is not uncommon in the US and I would guess in most other countries.
The point is that if he hadn't had easy access to assault weapons and 1000s of rounds of ammunition then maybe the tragedy could have been avoided or at least been at a lesser scale.
Americans are not going to give up gun ownership totally but limitations on the size of guns, proper registration of all weapons, limitations on the amount of ammunition, mandatory controls on how guns are stored and compulsory membership of a gun club (the "Well regulated militia" that the 2nd Amendment actually mentions) along with some investment in mental health care might reduce the number of both mass and other killings. As Obama has said one law, one act won't be enough but doing nothing shouldn't be an option.
The American Constitution was created in 1787 and ratified in 1788. 1791 is when their right to bear arms originates from. Time for a re think?? As I posted earlier " there ain't no injuns or outlaws any more ( referring to the wild west ).
The Adam Lanza most recent picture is a chilling one. He looks like a skeleton.
Reading about his mother, her obsession for guns, teaching her kids to shoot at ranges, and her gun collection suggests that his mother was 'a big cause' of this disaster.
People collect many things, but the power of guns can become a twisted obsession.
The Adam Lanza most recent picture is a chilling one. He looks like a skeleton.
Reading about his mother, her obsession for guns, teaching her kids to shoot at ranges, and her gun collection suggests that his mother was 'a big cause' of this disaster.
People collect many things, but the power of guns can become a twisted obsession.
The Adam Lanza most recent picture is a chilling one. He looks like a skeleton.
Reading about his mother, her obsession for guns, teaching her kids to shoot at ranges, and her gun collection suggests that his mother was 'a big cause' of this disaster.
People collect many things, but the power of guns can become a twisted obsession.
Utter bollox.
What part? I don't see how any if that can be seen as bollocks.
His mum taught him how to shoot and had guns in her house.
The Adam Lanza most recent picture is a chilling one. He looks like a skeleton.
Reading about his mother, her obsession for guns, teaching her kids to shoot at ranges, and her gun collection suggests that his mother was 'a big cause' of this disaster.
People collect many things, but the power of guns can become a twisted obsession.
Utter bollox.
What part? I don't see how any if that can be seen as bollocks.
His mum taught him how to shoot and had guns in her house.
Well then you need to understand the gun culture in the states. Half my family live in the States and own guns. Millions of people own guns legally, almost all are law abiding citizens. Gun collection/owning is big business and they do have an obsession with guns. Kids have shooting party's a bit like a football party in the UK. They shoot for prizes. Its what they do, so saying because they collect guns mean they turn into psychos is ridiculous in the extreme.
What they dont have many of is bar fights, its unusual for pissed lads to have a fight at chucking out time like in the UK, because they dont know if the other person is carrying. In a lot of States there is practically no 'road rage'. If you stop someone to have a row and open their car door they are legally allowed to shoot you. It might seem madnees to us, but they feel safer that way.
I have a militaria shop, I collect guns, OK mostly deactivated but guns none the less. I was in Minnesota in January shooting the ranges out there. The training received was second to none, all the ranges I have been to take their security and training unbelievably seriously.
You will never change the gun culture in the USA. What you can do is not issue licences/permits to anyone undergoing treatment for mental health. No such checks exist in a lot of the States. The NRA could also put a percentage of their millions of dollars into supporting mental health issues. This would be a long awaited start.
The UK gun laws are about spot on. It is illegal to own a hand gun or semi or fully auto rifle full stop. You can own a bolt action rifle or shotgun. I applied for my FAC (Firearms Cert), however the process to get a license is arduous, in the case of a rifle you have to give good reason to own it, you have to join a shooting club, say at Bisley, you are then mentored on the safety aspects of shooting, you have to attend the club every week for a few months and you book is filled out by the secretary. When this probation period is complete you then apply to a magistrate, the Police will come to you home and examine you house and make sure you have the correct locked gun cabinet bolted to a concrete wall, ammunition is kept in a separate part of the house again in a locked safe box. If these criteria are satisfied you receive your license, this is reviewed every year, if you have not made the required shooting dates, I think you must target shoot every 2 months then your license will be revoked.
I think even if the USA followed the above then it will make no difference, the horse has already bolted. Cleverer people then me need to make changes out there, but the majority of legal gun owners are law abiding citizens.
More importantly, 27 babies have been murdered. It will happen again unless they tighten up the laws.
The Adam Lanza most recent picture is a chilling one. He looks like a skeleton.
Reading about his mother, her obsession for guns, teaching her kids to shoot at ranges, and her gun collection suggests that his mother was 'a big cause' of this disaster.
People collect many things, but the power of guns can become a twisted obsession.
Utter bollox.
What part? I don't see how any if that can be seen as bollocks.
His mum taught him how to shoot and had guns in her house.
Well then you need to understand the gun culture in the states. Half my family live in the States and own guns. Millions of people own guns legally, almost all are law abiding citizens. Gun collection/owning is big business and they do have an obsession with guns. Kids have shooting party's a bit like a football party in the UK. They shoot for prizes. Its what they do, so saying because they collect guns mean they turn into psychos is ridiculous in the extreme.
What they dont have many of is bar fights, its unusual for pissed lads to have a fight at chucking out time like in the UK, because they dont know if the other person is carrying. In a lot of States there is practically no 'road rage'. If you stop someone to have a row and open their car door they are legally allowed to shoot you. It might seem madnees to us, but they feel safer that way.
I have a militaria shop, I collect guns, OK mostly deactivated but guns none the less. I was in Minnesota in January shooting the ranges out there. The training received was second to none, all the ranges I have been to take their security and training unbelievably seriously.
You will never change the gun culture in the USA. What you can do is not issue licences/permits to anyone undergoing treatment for mental health. No such checks exist in a lot of the States. The NRA could also put a percentage of their millions of dollars into supporting mental health issues. This would be a long awaited start.
The UK gun laws are about spot on. It is illegal to own a hand gun or semi or fully auto rifle full stop. You can own a bolt action rifle or shotgun. I applied for my FAC (Firearms Cert), however the process to get a license is arduous, in the case of a rifle you have to give good reason to own it, you have to join a shooting club, say at Bisley, you are then mentored on the safety aspects of shooting, you have to attend the club every week for a few months and you book is filled out by the secretary. When this probation period is complete you then apply to a magistrate, the Police will come to you home and examine you house and make sure you have the correct locked gun cabinet bolted to a concrete wall, ammunition is kept in a separate part of the house again in a locked safe box. If these criteria are satisfied you receive your license, this is reviewed every year, if you have not made the required shooting dates, I think you must target shoot every 2 months then your license will be revoked.
I think even if the USA followed the above then it will make no difference, the horse has already bolted. Cleverer people then me need to make changes out there, but the majority of legal gun owners are law abiding citizens.
More importantly, 27 babies have been murdered. It will happen again unless they tighten up the laws.
RIP
Well said.
I have never been to the states or know friends/family that live there.
What I ment to say was that it has been reported that the mother of the killer had an unusual obsession with guns, not that they turn people psycho, or that they are the sole reason the killer was mentally disturbed.
It did have an influence in the case though because of the mothers ownership of the guns and the fact that the killer knew how to use them etc. I guess an obvious point and reason why there needs to be alot more gun control in the US.
Every time a tragic incident like this happens people argue about the gun laws whether here or in the US.
Can any legislation in reality protect against a nutter?
You can make things more difficult but then that risks imposing on the freedom of the vast majority of decent, lawabiding people who shoot for pleasure.
A determined nutter or criminal will not be concerned with the fineries of gun laws he (or she but normally he) will get a gun anyway.
Every time a tragic incident like this happens people argue about the gun laws whether here or in the US.
Can any legislation in reality protect against a nutter?
You can make things more difficult but then that risks imposing on the freedom of the vast majority of decent, lawabiding people who shoot for pleasure.
A determined nutter or criminal will not be concerned with the fineries of gun laws he (or she but normally he) will get a gun anyway.
I've not got anything to back this up but my recollection of the vast majority of these atrocities are that the gunman obtained the weapons legally, or took them from the homes of people who had done so. There's simply no way of knowing whether they still would have obtained a weapon if that were not the case but it's hard to argue that the ease of access to firearms is not a major contributory factor in these cases. Certainly if we look at the gun death rates in other countries who do have gun control there is an extraordinary difference.
Gun control is just one issue. There are many factors that are affecting the number of shootings in the US. If we look at the total number of guns owned per capita, the US is way out in front. If we look at homicides by shootings the US is down in 18th. Still obviously way too high for a developed country but surely that indicates that more guns doesn't neccessarily mean more killings. It clearly helps but there must be more to it than that.
Gun control is just one issue. There are many factors that are affecting the number of shootings in the US. If we look at the total number of guns owned per capita, the US is way out in front. If we look at homicides by shootings the US is down in 18th. Still obviously way too high for a developed country but surely that indicates that more guns doesn't neccessarily mean more killings. It clearly helps but there must be more to it than that.
Those that know can I ask why the need to have automatic assault weapons
I understand hunting and target practice
But if you watch the discovery channel and watch sons of guns or the other family business that makes and sells firearms theyake the most extreme forms of weapon
A start would be to ban automatic weapons and then look at tightening the controls
Have strict and stringant punishments for those found in possession of automatic weapons
I don't see how the horse has bolted argument should be the excuse to not act
Children are dying on a regular basis not just because of guns but the unregulated unmonitored issues out there
I am sure that although you make a well reasoned argument greenie and one that makes a lot of sense something outside the box and in need of desperate action must happen out there
20 babies dead at the hands of a man who was apparently unwell and who's mother was so deranged that her answer to an impending financial meltdown of her country was to store arms ammunition and prepare for the impending disaster
Well the disaster happend caused by her son aided by herself and allowed by this so called political financial supporting body the NRA
Anybody of people that pay the amount of money they do to any political body to allow the safe passage of their business and organisation us Wholey immoral and hugely petrified that what they do and stand for is morally wrong
Every time a tragic incident like this happens people argue about the gun laws whether here or in the US.
Can any legislation in reality protect against a nutter?
You can make things more difficult but then that risks imposing on the freedom of the vast majority of decent, lawabiding people who shoot for pleasure.
A determined nutter or criminal will not be concerned with the fineries of gun laws he (or she but normally he) will get a gun anyway.
more like selfish, ignorance on the part of the gun owners - sorry Len but freedom my arse - you are not free even in the most backward US states to get into a car & drive it around willy-nilly without passing tests & getting yourself licensed/registered
what is the problem with at least making some steps & starting to more tightly legislate & track the use of firearms, especially if the sale & possession of those firearms is used to generate the money needed to finance the system
NLA - The simple answer is that there is no need for fully automatic weapons, I do know that in most states (I think) that the law for fully auto weapons is so much tighter than the other US gun laws. I spoke to one of the range masters when I was in the states, they also sell firearms, he had a guy come in who wanted a gun for self protection, the guy satisfied all the limited criteria. The guy lived in a flat, there had been a spate of burglary's in his area, the gunshop suggested a small hand gun for close quarter, but the fella had already made his mind up and ordered his weapon, 24 hours later the guy was the proud owner of an AK47, this had been altered to fire semi auto only. Crazy, if he was to fire an AK in his flat the rounds will probably go through the wall into his neighbors flat.
Also, to clarify, the horse has bolted comment made by me doesn't mean they shouldn't do anything, they should and fast! I just don't know what they can do, I and you know what they should do, but what, realistically (knowing their gun culture) can they do?
That's just crazy mate absolutely crazy and this is the sort of person that meets criteria
With a reduced income now with 2 kids and things going up I find myself late at night watching a lot American based factual programmes and I am always disturbed that the weaponry and the things some own and for the reasons they do
I have seen people with ideas and money to support the ideas build killing machines in the name of freedom to shoot in the woods and land surrounding their property that If I saw it in the flesh I would put my foot down I'm my car until I got back to blighty
It has to change the start should be a ban on fully automatic weapons and then real tough controls on all other weapons including cross bows and the like
Comments
I have no answers to the problem as I think if the laws changed and americans were not allowed fire arms then crime would probably rise as criminals would see this as a opportunity to break in to houses with a smaller risk of being shot at.
I think because of the volume of guns in US and the fact that alot of americans believe having a firearm is a good thing it would take at least 100 + years for america to get to the same stage as to what its like in the UK.
I'm sure most mothers wouldn't dream of shooting their sons but then again how many sons would shoot their mother? One at least.
The stats from 2006 show that
"For the incidents in which the relationships were known, 76.8 percent of the victims knew their killers and 23.2 percent were slain by strangers. Among the incidents in which the victims knew their killers, 29.8 percent were murdered by family members and 70.2 percent were killed by acquaintances. (Based on Table 2.11.) The 2004 data also revealed that 33.0 percent of female victims were killed by their husbands or boyfriends, and 2.7 percent of the male victims were slain by their wives or girlfriends. (Based on Tables 2.4 and 2.11.)"
http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offenses_reported/violent_crime/murder.html
So inter-family murder is not uncommon in the US and I would guess in most other countries.
The point is that if he hadn't had easy access to assault weapons and 1000s of rounds of ammunition then maybe the tragedy could have been avoided or at least been at a lesser scale.
Americans are not going to give up gun ownership totally but limitations on the size of guns, proper registration of all weapons, limitations on the amount of ammunition, mandatory controls on how guns are stored and compulsory membership of a gun club (the "Well regulated militia" that the 2nd Amendment actually mentions) along with some investment in mental health care might reduce the number of both mass and other killings. As Obama has said one law, one act won't be enough but doing nothing shouldn't be an option.
Dimwits.
millions of guns in circulation in the country already.
Making ALL guns illegal would simply mean that law abiding people
are disarmed while the non-law abiding people remained armed to the teeth. Not good.
Reading about his mother, her obsession for guns, teaching her kids to shoot at ranges, and her gun collection suggests that his mother was 'a big cause' of this disaster.
People collect many things, but the power of guns can become a twisted obsession.
His mum taught him how to shoot and had guns in her house.
Gun collection/owning is big business and they do have an obsession with guns. Kids have shooting party's a bit like a football party in the UK. They shoot for prizes. Its what they do, so saying because they collect guns mean they turn into psychos is ridiculous in the extreme.
What they dont have many of is bar fights, its unusual for pissed lads to have a fight at chucking out time like in the UK, because they dont know if the other person is carrying. In a lot of States there is practically no 'road rage'. If you stop someone to have a row and open their car door they are legally allowed to shoot you. It might seem madnees to us, but they feel safer that way.
I have a militaria shop, I collect guns, OK mostly deactivated but guns none the less. I was in Minnesota in January shooting the ranges out there. The training received was second to none, all the ranges I have been to take their security and training unbelievably seriously.
You will never change the gun culture in the USA. What you can do is not issue licences/permits to anyone undergoing treatment for mental health. No such checks exist in a lot of the States.
The NRA could also put a percentage of their millions of dollars into supporting mental health issues. This would be a long awaited start.
The UK gun laws are about spot on. It is illegal to own a hand gun or semi or fully auto rifle full stop. You can own a bolt action rifle or shotgun. I applied for my FAC (Firearms Cert), however the process to get a license is arduous, in the case of a rifle you have to give good reason to own it, you have to join a shooting club, say at Bisley, you are then mentored on the safety aspects of shooting, you have to attend the club every week for a few months and you book is filled out by the secretary. When this probation period is complete you then apply to a magistrate, the Police will come to you home and examine you house and make sure you have the correct locked gun cabinet bolted to a concrete wall, ammunition is kept in a separate part of the house again in a locked safe box. If these criteria are satisfied you receive your license, this is reviewed every year, if you have not made the required shooting dates, I think you must target shoot every 2 months then your license will be revoked.
I think even if the USA followed the above then it will make no difference, the horse has already bolted. Cleverer people then me need to make changes out there, but the majority of legal gun owners are law abiding citizens.
More importantly, 27 babies have been murdered.
It will happen again unless they tighten up the laws.
RIP
I have never been to the states or know friends/family that live there.
What I ment to say was that it has been reported that the mother of the killer had an unusual obsession with guns, not that they turn people psycho, or that they are the sole reason the killer was mentally disturbed.
It did have an influence in the case though because of the mothers ownership of the guns and the fact that the killer knew how to use them etc. I guess an obvious point and reason why there needs to be alot more gun control in the US.
Can any legislation in reality protect against a nutter?
You can make things more difficult but then that risks imposing on the freedom of the vast majority of decent, lawabiding people who shoot for pleasure.
A determined nutter or criminal will not be concerned with the fineries of gun laws he (or she but normally he) will get a gun anyway.
I understand hunting and target practice
But if you watch the discovery channel and watch sons of guns or the other family business that makes and sells firearms theyake the most extreme forms of weapon
A start would be to ban automatic weapons and then look at tightening the controls
Have strict and stringant punishments for those found in possession of automatic weapons
I don't see how the horse has bolted argument should be the excuse to not act
Children are dying on a regular basis not just because of guns but the unregulated unmonitored issues out there
I am sure that although you make a well reasoned argument greenie and one that makes a lot of sense something outside the box and in need of desperate action must happen out there
20 babies dead at the hands of a man who was apparently unwell and who's mother was so deranged that her answer to an impending financial meltdown of her country was to store arms ammunition and prepare for the impending disaster
Well the disaster happend caused by her son aided by herself and allowed by this so called political financial supporting body the NRA
Anybody of people that pay the amount of money they do to any political body to allow the safe passage of their business and organisation us Wholey immoral and hugely petrified that what they do and stand for is morally wrong
more like selfish, ignorance on the part of the gun owners - sorry Len but freedom my arse - you are not free even in the most backward US states to get into a car & drive it around willy-nilly without passing tests & getting yourself licensed/registered
what is the problem with at least making some steps & starting to more tightly legislate & track the use of firearms, especially if the sale & possession of those firearms is used to generate the money needed to finance the system
I spoke to one of the range masters when I was in the states, they also sell firearms, he had a guy come in who wanted a gun for self protection, the guy satisfied all the limited criteria.
The guy lived in a flat, there had been a spate of burglary's in his area, the gunshop suggested a small hand gun for close quarter, but the fella had already made his mind up and ordered his weapon, 24 hours later the guy was the proud owner of an AK47, this had been altered to fire semi auto only. Crazy, if he was to fire an AK in his flat the rounds will probably go through the wall into his neighbors flat.
Also, to clarify, the horse has bolted comment made by me doesn't mean they shouldn't do anything, they should and fast! I just don't know what they can do, I and you know what they should do, but what, realistically (knowing their gun culture) can they do?
With a reduced income now with 2 kids and things going up I find myself late at night watching a lot American based factual programmes and I am always disturbed that the weaponry and the things some own and for the reasons they do
I have seen people with ideas and money to support the ideas build killing machines in the name of freedom to shoot in the woods and land surrounding their property that If I saw it in the flesh I would put my foot down I'm my car until I got back to blighty
It has to change the start should be a ban on fully automatic weapons and then real tough controls on all other weapons including cross bows and the like