I used to care about politics but I don't anymore and don't vote. Labour's main policy is don't vote Conservative and Conservative's main policy is don't vote Labour.
When they are more concerned about running the country and less about what the opposition is doing I might start voting again. I have no doubt they are only running this referendum for popularity purposes.
I used to care about politics but I don't anymore and don't vote. Labour's main policy is don't vote Conservative and Conservative's main policy is don't vote Labour.
When they are more concerned about running the country and less about what the opposition is doing I might start voting again. I have no doubt they are only running this referendum for popularity purposes.
as Algarve said earlier ...there ain't no difference
I used to care about politics but I don't anymore and don't vote. Labour's main policy is don't vote Conservative and Conservative's main policy is don't vote Labour.
When they are more concerned about running the country and less about what the opposition is doing I might start voting again. I have no doubt they are only running this referendum for popularity purposes.
Why don't you vote for a different party then other than the Lib Dems, Labour and Tories?
At least five years of uncertainty and distrust of the UK's intentions by our European partners and a distancing by the Americans followed by possibly a referendum which if it results in an out vote will be followed by a further decade of re adjustment and alignment of political and economic policy. All this set against the backdrop of years of recession and a shrinking economy. Perhaps this whole thread should be moved to the "End of Britain" thread.
One of the main problems with politics in the UK these days is that the majority of politicians are professional politicians and have done anything else in life. Spin, lies and hollow promises. That goes for all the main parties.
The influence of this country on the "World Stage" would diminish greatly if we left the EU in a huff. I don't understand why our politicians would want to leave and make this country have the same level of influence as Norway.
At least five years of uncertainty and distrust of the UK's intentions by our European partners and a distancing by the Americans followed by possibly a referendum which if it results in an out vote will be followed by a further decade of re adjustment and alignment of political and economic policy. All this set against the backdrop of years of recession and a shrinking economy. Perhaps this whole thread should be moved to the "End of Britain" thread.
Exactly my thoughts on the matter. I don't think there are many who think the EU is perfect and doesn't need at least some change but for those shouting the loudest against the EU the main points generally seem to be about the EU court of human rights, in particular extraditing people we believe should be kicked out of the country. The amount of money we pay to the EU. And fishing and agriculture quotas.
Some valid arguments but really in the context of how our country is at the moment are they that valid to us right now? Ok the money we contribute can be disputed but are the other two more important than sorting out how we will achieve some sustained economic growth?
Len I want to say that it's obvious to me that you hold your eurosceptic views because you genuinely believe they are the better way for the UK, and I will always respect you for that. Personally I am probably pro-Europe because over time living on the continent I've watched "Europe" get a bad rap in the UK from politicians and media moguls who have their own agenda, and find it convenient to blame things on "Europe". Take the postal directive which you mentioned. To me, you clearly implied (but correct me if you did not mean it this way) that the UK has closed down post offices because it has to, to comply with the EU directive. It is not true. Here is what the European Commission says.
FACT: The EU does not close post offices There is no EU legislation forcing post office closures. This is a matter for the UK Government and Royal Mail. EU postal reform (Directive 97/67/EC, as amended by Directives 2002/39/EC and 2008/6/EC) seeks to secure key standards, protect consumers, improve quality of service and promote choice for postal users. The Postal Directive does not stipulate how many post offices the UK must have, nor has the European Commission ever recommended how many post offices there should be in any Member State. It is up to the universal service provider (Royal Mail) and Her Majesty's Government to determine the optimal size of the national network to meet universal service needs.
I'd suggest that a Conservative government is generally not interested in keeping open little post offices in country villages, because they need State support to keep going, and that is Bad. But people like you and I feel that these little post offices are important, they keep the communities alive. It can be a vote loser for the Tories. Neat little trick therefore, to blame it on the EU.
And thats an example of how it is so damn difficult to have a rational debate based on the facts.
I wouldn't trust the modern general public to make a cup of tea without first having obtained clear instructions from Simon Cowell and Jordan.
I include myself in that. I only know what I have read, heard in the media etc on the supposed pros and cos and how trustworthy and credible the arguments are I don't know. Would hope someone will lay out in sensible terms the pros and cons without any political spin or bias before the vote but cant see who would do that.
Nobody knows what would happen.
There are two reasons why we might want to stay in Europe.
(1) We benefit from the ability to trade freely with the other EU members and are subject to the same rules and regulations as they are. This is massively important to us. We would be in a world of pain if it ends, genuinely catastrophic.
(2) We get a say in what those rules and regulations are. We also benefit from being part of the largest trading block in the world when it comes to negotiated with the rest of the world.
If we leave the EU that we lose (2). There's no real question about that. Sure we'll have some say but not as much.
The question is, do we lose (1) as well. Eurosceptics say that we won't. Free trade benefits all parties who engage in it so the EU member states will not want to lose their ability to trade freely with us. They point to countries such as Switzerland and Norway who have free trade agreements with the EU. Europhiles say that there is a real danger that we will lose the ability to trade freely. Europhobes agree with Eurosceptics and also downplay just how much of a disaster it would be for the UK if we lost our ability to trade freely with the Euroblock.
IMO, the overwhelming likelihood is that we would agree trade terms with the EU but it woudl be very much on their terms as they woudl have by far the better negotiating position. If we were unable to come to an arrangement it woudl be an absolute disaster way worse than anything we have suffered in the last decade. The period of uncertanty during any negotiations would be bad enough.
OTOH, the benefits of leaving the EU are not insignificant. What we lose by no longer being a voice in a large and influential block of countries we gain by having our own voice. We regain control of our own policies in relation to a larg number of areas such as agricultural subsidies. We no longer have to pay into the EU.
On balance, if there was a referendum tomorrow I would vote the stay in. For me the the small risk of a disaster together with the loss of collective strength and influence in the wider world outweighs the certainty of small fiscal gains and independence in policy making.
Great points. Thing is about Norway & SwitZerland, is they do have trade agreements, but those agreements have taken years to compile. We will go in cold, and in such a volatile economy, we would be crazy to do that.
Free trade is great to an extent. By joining the EU, our fishing trade was cut drastically. Due to free trade.
Norway however, own/control all fishing revenue that comes from the North Sea (or waters surrounding its perimeters) !
It's going to boil down to weighing the pros and cons. Whether we are in the EU Or not, there are going to be things that we would rather do without.
I just wish we could have a referendum tomorrow to stop the bulgarians coming in.
Even if we could. It does not leave enough time legally, to unwind all the things in place.
The Bulgarians aren't interested. And if you have not seen Bulgarian women, you may have cause to regret that :-)
Bigger problem is Romania.
But again, it is within our own government's remit to deal with the problem by changing the criteria for getting benefits. The EU doesn't prevent them from doing so.
There doesn't need to be a vote because there is only one question that doesn't need the people to decide on. That is, is the Country better off being in Europe or outside it? The answer is simply that it is better in it.
Those that oppose Europe, don't really contest this, but say that if we are out we would concentrate on emerging markets more, but there is nothing to stop us doing that now anyway.
My choice in Europe would be for it to be more of a common market, but what it is is up to its members to decide- it is arrogant for one country to think it can be part of a club and write the rules to suit itself. Instead, It needs to argue and influence others to agree with it.
Now, to appease dissenters on the right - a massive minority of the population, we have presented our businesses with a long period of uncertainty. Europe is going to get even more fed up with us and we will be increasingly marginalised. And Cameron says he will fight for us to stay in Europe - you couldn't make it up. The damage that is being done may never be undone and the Liberals are standing by and letting it happen. Shame on them! Clegg is destroying them and if they don't make a move on him soon, and reject the coalition, they will never recover/
Len I want to say that it's obvious to me that you hold your eurosceptic views because you genuinely believe they are the better way for the UK, and I will always respect you for that. Personally I am probably pro-Europe because over time living on the continent I've watched "Europe" get a bad rap in the UK from politicians and media moguls who have their own agenda, and find it convenient to blame things on "Europe". Take the postal directive which you mentioned. To me, you clearly implied (but correct me if you did not mean it this way) that the UK has closed down post offices because it has to, to comply with the EU directive. It is not true. Here is what the European Commission says.
FACT: The EU does not close post offices There is no EU legislation forcing post office closures. This is a matter for the UK Government and Royal Mail. EU postal reform (Directive 97/67/EC, as amended by Directives 2002/39/EC and 2008/6/EC) seeks to secure key standards, protect consumers, improve quality of service and promote choice for postal users. The Postal Directive does not stipulate how many post offices the UK must have, nor has the European Commission ever recommended how many post offices there should be in any Member State. It is up to the universal service provider (Royal Mail) and Her Majesty's Government to determine the optimal size of the national network to meet universal service needs.
I'd suggest that a Conservative government is generally not interested in keeping open little post offices in country villages, because they need State support to keep going, and that is Bad. But people like you and I feel that these little post offices are important, they keep the communities alive. It can be a vote loser for the Tories. Neat little trick therefore, to blame it on the EU.
And thats an example of how it is so damn difficult to have a rational debate based on the facts.
Prague thanks for publicly acknowledging your understanding of my objections to the EU being based on lack of democratic accountability and self-determination rather than taking the usual cheap shot of xenophobia etc.
I've read the Europa document you quote and my conclusion is that there are elements of right and wrong on both side.
No the document does not directly say "you must close post offices" but the EU did impose competition rules to post office services. My phraseology was admittedly lazy but the EU directed competition directive inevitably made many Post Offices uneconomic as the likes of DHL etc nicked the more profitable parts of the business. The Labour government of the time decided to close those post offices considered uneconomic and the Tories / Coalition have continued the trend.
One could therefore argue that it is not entirely unreasonable to say as I did, in summary of the position, that the EU made us close our post offices since the EU competition rules were the catalyst even though, considering the Europa document you quote in a vacuum, it did not have to happen.
The major question arising from this though in my opinion is who should decide whether or not the services offered by UK Post Offices are nationalised or open to competition. An elected UK government or an unelected European Commission?
You know my view!
A couple of articles here set out some of the detail re Post Offices more articulately than I can.
I just wish we could have a referendum tomorrow to stop the bulgarians coming in.
Even if we could. It does not leave enough time legally, to unwind all the things in place.
The Bulgarians aren't interested. And if you have not seen Bulgarian women, you may have cause to regret that :-)
Bigger problem is Romania.
But again, it is within our own government's remit to deal with the problem by changing the criteria for getting benefits. The EU doesn't prevent them from doing so.
The EU would prevent us treating Romanians differently for benefits than anybody else.
Single Market and all that. The same principle which prevents us from charging foreign lorry drivers road tolls etc despite our own hauliers being clobbered on the continent.
In essence the EU states that everyone has to be treated the same.
In cash terms I'm pretty sure we pay in more than we get out but you can't ignore trade. Whilst it is difficult to quantify how much trade would be lost if we left Europe, most sensible people, in all political parties, realise this country would lose out- or would need to find alternatives for that lost trade.
UKIP think we can do that by magic, but we would have to compete with a massive trading block - Europe - who we used to be part of. Leaving it, despite its flaws would be a disaster.
We might be better off if there was no Europe, but there is. Because we drop out, it doesn't mean it will collapse and stop operating as a single market, which will affect us as most of our trade is done within Europe.
The questions you ask have no relevance to today, but unfortunately, lots of British people will ask the same questions, prompted by the press.
We pay money to belong to a big club. Being a member pays for itself and some, but not through the club giving more money back, but through the financial benefits of being in that club. If we were out of Europe, major foreign (non euro) companies who have British workforces will think again for starters.
And what is our percentage spend in comparison to other countries
Do we all pay 80 mill a day and not get it back if so where does this cash go
Pre EU we produced a lot more food ourselves. We used to be self sufficient in dairy products to quote one example and export our surpluses.
The Common Market (as the EU was then) had (and have) a Common Agricultural Policy which restricted food surpluses. As a consequence there was huge wastage. Butter mountains, milk lakes etc.
The cash goes to fund the common agricultural policy, common fisheries policy, "social initiatives" and fraud.
Some countries (Germany, UK, Holland and sometimes a couple of others) are net contributors others are net recipients.
Paying that sort of money every day and no one telling me where it goes and who recieves this money is not going to help me make a decision based on whats best for me
EU ruling meant i lost money through not being able to work the hrs i want
The reason we produce less food is because we can't make a lot of it as cheaply as we can buy it. It isn't the common market although it's easy to blame it.
In cash terms I'm pretty sure we pay in more than we get out but you can't ignore trade. Whilst it is difficult to quantify how much trade would be lost if we left Europe, most sensible people, in all political parties, realise this country would lose out- or would need to find alternatives for that lost trade.
UKIP think we can do that by magic, but we would have to compete with a massive trading block - Europe - who we used to be part of. Leaving it, despite its flaws would be a disaster.
We import from the rest of the EU way more than we export.
The economic reality in a time of austerity is that the EU is hardly likely to shaft one of its largest customers despite the scare stories peddled by the Europhiles.
In cash terms I'm pretty sure we pay in more than we get out but you can't ignore trade. Whilst it is difficult to quantify how much trade would be lost if we left Europe, most sensible people, in all political parties, realise this country would lose out- or would need to find alternatives for that lost trade.
UKIP think we can do that by magic, but we would have to compete with a massive trading block - Europe - who we used to be part of. Leaving it, despite its flaws would be a disaster.
As I pointed out before though the EU sells us far more than we sell them so the EU will be selling us goods because they want to make money. It's a complete myth what your saying.
Paying that sort of money every day and no one telling me where it goes and who recieves this money is not going to help me make a decision based on whats best for me
EU ruling meant i lost money through not being able to work the hrs i want
It's just part of being a member of the EU, that's it.
Comments
When they are more concerned about running the country and less about what the opposition is doing I might start voting again. I have no doubt they are only running this referendum for popularity purposes.
Some valid arguments but really in the context of how our country is at the moment are they that valid to us right now? Ok the money we contribute can be disputed but are the other two more important than sorting out how we will achieve some sustained economic growth?
I want to say that it's obvious to me that you hold your eurosceptic views because you genuinely believe they are the better way for the UK, and I will always respect you for that.
Personally I am probably pro-Europe because over time living on the continent I've watched "Europe" get a bad rap in the UK from politicians and media moguls who have their own agenda, and find it convenient to blame things on "Europe". Take the postal directive which you mentioned. To me, you clearly implied (but correct me if you did not mean it this way) that the UK has closed down post offices because it has to, to comply with the EU directive. It is not true. Here is what the European Commission says.
FACT: The EU does not close post offices
There is no EU legislation forcing post office closures. This is a matter for the UK Government and Royal Mail. EU postal reform (Directive 97/67/EC, as amended by Directives 2002/39/EC and 2008/6/EC) seeks to secure key standards, protect consumers, improve quality of service and promote choice for postal users. The Postal Directive does not stipulate how many post offices the UK must have, nor has the European Commission ever recommended how many post offices there should be in any Member State. It is up to the universal service provider (Royal Mail) and Her Majesty's Government to determine the optimal size of the national network to meet universal service needs.
I'd suggest that a Conservative government is generally not interested in keeping open little post offices in country villages, because they need State support to keep going, and that is Bad. But people like you and I feel that these little post offices are important, they keep the communities alive. It can be a vote loser for the Tories. Neat little trick therefore, to blame it on the EU.
And thats an example of how it is so damn difficult to have a rational debate based on the facts.
Thing is about Norway & SwitZerland, is they do have trade agreements, but those agreements have taken years to compile. We will go in cold, and in such a volatile economy, we would be crazy to do that.
Free trade is great to an extent. By joining the EU, our fishing trade was cut drastically. Due to free trade.
Norway however, own/control all fishing revenue that comes from the North Sea (or waters surrounding its perimeters) !
It's going to boil down to weighing the pros and cons. Whether we are in the EU Or not, there are going to be things that we would rather do without.
Bigger problem is Romania.
But again, it is within our own government's remit to deal with the problem by changing the criteria for getting benefits. The EU doesn't prevent them from doing so.
Those that oppose Europe, don't really contest this, but say that if we are out we would concentrate on emerging markets more, but there is nothing to stop us doing that now anyway.
My choice in Europe would be for it to be more of a common market, but what it is is up to its members to decide- it is arrogant for one country to think it can be part of a club and write the rules to suit itself. Instead, It needs to argue and influence others to agree with it.
Now, to appease dissenters on the right - a massive minority of the population, we have presented our businesses with a long period of uncertainty. Europe is going to get even more fed up with us and we will be increasingly marginalised. And Cameron says he will fight for us to stay in Europe - you couldn't make it up. The damage that is being done may never be undone and the Liberals are standing by and letting it happen. Shame on them! Clegg is destroying them and if they don't make a move on him soon, and reject the coalition, they will never recover/
I've read the Europa document you quote and my conclusion is that there are elements of right and wrong on both side.
No the document does not directly say "you must close post offices" but the EU did impose competition rules to post office services. My phraseology was admittedly lazy but the EU directed competition directive inevitably made many Post Offices uneconomic as the likes of DHL etc nicked the more profitable parts of the business. The Labour government of the time decided to close those post offices considered uneconomic and the Tories / Coalition have continued the trend.
One could therefore argue that it is not entirely unreasonable to say as I did, in summary of the position, that the EU made us close our post offices since the EU competition rules were the catalyst even though, considering the Europa document you quote in a vacuum, it did not have to happen.
The major question arising from this though in my opinion is who should decide whether or not the services offered by UK Post Offices are nationalised or open to competition. An elected UK government or an unelected European Commission?
You know my view!
A couple of articles here set out some of the detail re Post Offices more articulately than I can.
http://www.eureferendum.com/results.aspx?keyword=post office closures
Cash terms
If we were out of the EU coukd our fishermen earn more and be less restricted
If we are out of the EU can i go back to earning more money by not being goverend by european workung time restrictions should i wish
Single Market and all that. The same principle which prevents us from charging foreign lorry drivers road tolls etc despite our own hauliers being clobbered on the continent.
In essence the EU states that everyone has to be treated the same.
UKIP think we can do that by magic, but we would have to compete with a massive trading block - Europe - who we used to be part of. Leaving it, despite its flaws would be a disaster.
Direct costs were £10.8 billion in 2011. Indirect costs are more debatable but £65 billion has been quoted.
http://www.democracymovementsurrey.co.uk/dyk_eucosts.html
And what is our percentage spend in comparison to other countries
Do we all pay 80 mill a day and not get it back if so where does this cash go
The questions you ask have no relevance to today, but unfortunately, lots of British people will ask the same questions, prompted by the press.
We pay money to belong to a big club. Being a member pays for itself and some, but not through the club giving more money back, but through the financial benefits of being in that club. If we were out of Europe, major foreign (non euro) companies who have British workforces will think again for starters.
The Common Market (as the EU was then) had (and have) a Common Agricultural Policy which restricted food surpluses. As a consequence there was huge wastage. Butter mountains, milk lakes etc.
The cash goes to fund the common agricultural policy, common fisheries policy, "social initiatives" and fraud.
Some countries (Germany, UK, Holland and sometimes a couple of others) are net contributors others are net recipients.
Paying that sort of money every day and no one telling me where it goes and who recieves this money is not going to help me make a decision based on whats best for me
EU ruling meant i lost money through not being able to work the hrs i want
Swiss and norway have been mentioned are they in or out
If out how do they trade and survive
The economic reality in a time of austerity is that the EU is hardly likely to shaft one of its largest customers despite the scare stories peddled by the Europhiles.
It goes to an EU bank account that just gathers interest