@Stig the article is quite long so I've created a word document, see above. If you can't see it I'll post in full.
It talks about private companies using NHS facilities, staff and equipment out of hours, the staff being paid more by the private companies
This has been happening, trying to get the waiting lists down.
The point is that it is private companies which exist to make a profit, using NHS equipment facilities and NHS staff.
Pay the NHS staff more to work those hours and cut out the profit making private companies would be a much better use of resources.
I don't think you can make blanket changes like this without causing chaos. Over the last few years I have had two endoscopy exams. Both were carried out by a private company working for the NHS and operating from NHS premises. The Company is called Inhealth, they have a number of operations including mobile centres and all are rated good by the CQC. The thing is, sticking miniature cameras in peoples' orifices is a specialism and they are very good at it. Specialism does work. My GP said I could go private but the NHS service would be quicker, so that's what I did.
Another thing. The buildings. A large number of the state of the art GP/Medical Centre premises are not owned by the GP partners or the NHS - they could not afford them. For example a company called Primary Health Properties owns in excess of 500 such properties and as a REIT pays out a nice little earner to its shareholders. While the medical centres get value for money rents to pay. It works for all parties. A blanket renationalisation of such premises would cost a fortune and be counter-productive. (But might tick all the political dogma boxes.)
@Stig the article is quite long so I've created a word document, see above. If you can't see it I'll post in full.
It talks about private companies using NHS facilities, staff and equipment out of hours, the staff being paid more by the private companies
This has been happening, trying to get the waiting lists down.
The point is that it is private companies which exist to make a profit, using NHS equipment facilities and NHS staff.
Pay the NHS staff more to work those hours and cut out the profit making private companies would be a much better use of resources.
I don't think you can make blanket changes like this without causing chaos. Over the last few years I have had two endoscopy exams. Both were carried out by a private company working for the NHS and operating from NHS premises. The Company is called Inhealth, they have a number of operations including mobile centres and all are rated good by the CQC. The thing is, sticking miniature cameras in peoples' orifices is a specialism and they are very good at it. Specialism does work. My GP said I could go private but the NHS service would be quicker, so that's what I did.
Another thing. The buildings. A large number of the state of the art GP/Medical Centre premises are not owned by the GP partners or the NHS - they could not afford them. For example a company called Primary Health Properties owns in excess of 500 such properties and as a REIT pays out a nice little earner to its shareholders. While the medical centres get value for money rents to pay. It works for all parties. A blanket renationalisation of such premises would cost a fortune and be counter-productive. (But might tick all the political dogma boxes.)
You're missing the point. If you read the article I posted in a link to Stig, private companies are using NHS premises, equipment and staff, out of hours. Why not properly pay the NHS staff to work those out of hours and save the profit element of a private company.
Managed to blag a appointment, hernia confirmed. Apparently there is quite the waiting for the OP, so if I want it done soon I was recommended to go private...
Managed to blag a appointment, hernia confirmed. Apparently there is quite the waiting for the OP, so if I want it done soon I was recommended to go private...
Managed to blag a appointment, hernia confirmed. Apparently there is quite the waiting for the OP, so if I want it done soon I was recommended to go private...
Where is the hernia?
Inguinal hernia, which isnt as bad as it could be. Having issues owning a 5 year old son with it though and still having to do all the parent stuff like picking up etc.
Managed to blag a appointment, hernia confirmed. Apparently there is quite the waiting for the OP, so if I want it done soon I was recommended to go private...
That’s what I was told and did so … fixed in a few weeks rather than 12-18 months which I was told to expect with NHS
I am fortunate I could afford it … not good for those who can’t.
Agree with lots of whats been said but lets remember GP practices are private businesses and the contract that they operate under is outdated and in place long before most modern technology was in existence. As a result GP practices have far to much independence in how they operate a large number of things and the NHS cannot tell them how to operate even if it is better for the patient experience. GP practices also own their own data and can choose what and how much they share with the NHS which prevents analysis into how the system can be improved and how we can better target treatment and most importantly prevention.
Changing the GP model and phasing out the private GP practice model would be top of my list if I was in charge of reforming the NHS. It’s the most important factor in the Moving from hospital to community care - one of the 3 pillars of their 10 year plan for the NHS. It will be a difficult legal battle but we have a top lawyer for PM so if there is a time to tackle this it’s now. In my view this is the biggest blocker to the NHS performing well.
The NHS does need reform and I worked in it for thirty years. The real problem is that it’s not just about reforming the management structures or even funding. That’s been tried by practically every government since year dot. The whole ethos of the NHS needs a rethink. Everyone wants an NHS but nobody wants to actually pay what’s required to make it function well. That’s not just about throwing money at it but fundamentally changing how we fund and view our healthcare. For me, I would suggest that all accessed services come at a small individual cost. Means tested certainly but if you need a blood test then it’s £10:00. A general x-Ray £20:00 and so on. You get the drift. People have to feel that they are invested in the service and their own health. I think this is even more important than collecting the fees. At present too many people treat their health and those that provide their health services as some sort of god given right. Pitch up and it all falls into place like magic. I can tell you there isn’t much magic. People are fully prepared to spend a lot on all sorts of things yet ask them to invest a small amount in their own health and they object. I know that’s not everyone but it’s a majority I feel. Health technology and pharmacology changes at a breathtaking pace and it’s bloody expensive. Nobody should be expected to or need to go into debt or struggle with medical bills but I think the time has come where big decisions need to be made. An insurance based system would be a disaster but asking people to pay a little towards and take some responsibility for their own health is I think the only way to keep the NHS in a form we would still recognise and want. It’s going to be a long haul because getting the staffing issues sorted is a mountain in itself.
I'm afraid I don't agree.
I don't think the funding model is fundamentally broken. In the short term we are gonna have to pay more to fix the mess and in the medium term we will pay more than we should have to because 14 years of cuts largely focused on the prevention side mean we are a sicker population and so will have to pay for that while we wait for prevention on the next generation to catch up.
But, I still believe this should be funded through general taxation. I don't want to get into the realms of the politics thread but I believe there are ways to raise extra for this if needed and other European countries are starting to do so. The analysis is clear that even the smallest surcharge on these things will cause people to delay investigations and treatment and end up with adverse effects likely only getting treatment later which means its more expensive, more invasive longer recovery times, more ongoing care, longer out of work etc etc. This would have a much much worse effect on population health and the state of our NHS than the generation of missed prevention I mention above. It will only assure that costs are higher in the medium term.
You only have to look at the state of dentistry to see why keeping health free at the point of use is essential.
I can’t say that I disagree with you but for me there does need to be a sea change in how the nation feels about the NHS and in particular the need to take more responsibility for its own health. The NHS is loved by nearly all and nearly all take it completely for granted. I’m of the opinion that people are more connected to and feel invested in something when they are required to pay, even in some small part towards it. I’m talking small fees that are capped regardless of amount of useage. Every hospital has a cashiers office to take payment and let’s be honest a card payment machine could do 99% of the task. General taxation has to be the main and maintained funding model but I think people will have a little more respect and interest in their own health if they have to think about paying a small fee for accessed services. I’m always amazed that ask the average Joe where and what their pancreas is and 95% won’t have a clue. You get one body to see you through yet people are mostly blasé about why and how it works. When there’s a problem there are people who quite unbelievably rock up at A&E and have a headache or bruised toe. There’s no respect for the service by too many. It’s free and taken for granted. I worked sharp end for years and the amount of people who attend with a really shitty, unpleasant and arrogant attitude is astonishing.
Sorry, I think you are fundamentally wrong @ShootersHillGuru. One of the major problems with the NHS is the medical profession. One of the aspects is the way members of the profession blame patients, their customers !
You have provided an example, namely NHS customers going unnecessarily to A&E. You will always get some people doing this, it's what human beings do. However, when this happens in large numbers, the fault is with the NHS and the services it provides (or not !). Don't blame your customers.
Managed to blag a appointment, hernia confirmed. Apparently there is quite the waiting for the OP, so if I want it done soon I was recommended to go private...
That’s what I was told and did so … fixed in a few weeks rather than 12-18 months which I was told to expect with NHS
I am fortunate I could afford it … not good for those who can’t.
Unfortunately thats not an option for me, the thought of being like this (and it getting worse) for that amount of time is incredibly depressing and worrying.
Managed to blag a appointment, hernia confirmed. Apparently there is quite the waiting for the OP, so if I want it done soon I was recommended to go private...
That’s what I was told and did so … fixed in a few weeks rather than 12-18 months which I was told to expect with NHS
I am fortunate I could afford it … not good for those who can’t.
Unfortunately thats not an option for me, the thought of being like this (and it getting worse) for that amount of time is incredibly depressing and worrying.
I can understand that … would below be an option (available at Blackheath Hospital)?
Managed to blag a appointment, hernia confirmed. Apparently there is quite the waiting for the OP, so if I want it done soon I was recommended to go private...
That’s what I was told and did so … fixed in a few weeks rather than 12-18 months which I was told to expect with NHS
I am fortunate I could afford it … not good for those who can’t.
Unfortunately thats not an option for me, the thought of being like this (and it getting worse) for that amount of time is incredibly depressing and worrying.
I can understand that … would below be an option (available at Blackheath Hospital)?
Managed to blag a appointment, hernia confirmed. Apparently there is quite the waiting for the OP, so if I want it done soon I was recommended to go private...
That’s what I was told and did so … fixed in a few weeks rather than 12-18 months which I was told to expect with NHS
I am fortunate I could afford it … not good for those who can’t.
Unfortunately thats not an option for me, the thought of being like this (and it getting worse) for that amount of time is incredibly depressing and worrying.
I can understand that … would below be an option (available at Blackheath Hospital)?
The NHS has had record funding. even Labour are saying vehemently, 'no extra funding without reform. And reform or die. It is NOT about additional funding but about reform and reducing astronomical waste
Of course there’s record funding. Just like the cost of your shopping basket at home has to reflect the increases in prices. It goes up week on week year on year. Even then the funding on the NHS has been squeezed year on year since 2010. Every metric you can name has got worse over the last fourteen years. Finally we’ve reached or very close to rock bottom and there is no quick fix to reverse fourteen years of decline. You’ve only got to look at the doctors pay disputes which showed how far behind they’d fallen behind as a window to the bigger picture. I totally agree that waste and inefficiency has to be rooted out but I’m sorry to say that if you think waiting lists, cancer outcomes and staffing issues are not going to need at least for the medium term additional and significant funding then you’ve not understood the problem.
I wouldn't worry about whether I think significant funding is required or not, but what the current government think - NO additional funding without reform. They do not think it is a case of just more (and more) funding - if it was just insufficient funding, then additional funding would be the solution.
30 July 2024: 'Overall NHS spending has increased in real terms since 2015/16. This has been driven by a £14.3 billion increase in spending on acute care, which accounts for over half of the overall increase in spending (£25.4 billion) over this time period.'
To put those figures into context they include all additional funding for covid including the initial response, purchasing enough vaccines for the whole population to have multiple doses, PPE waste, Test and trace billions. Despite that funding growth per head has been at its lowest level since the NHS's inception in the time the Tories were in charge.
So hardly like it's been thrown more than it needs and failed. It's actually been given much less than it needs with massive chunks of thatvsiphoned off for covid whether wasted or actually useful.
Managed to blag a appointment, hernia confirmed. Apparently there is quite the waiting for the OP, so if I want it done soon I was recommended to go private...
That’s what I was told and did so … fixed in a few weeks rather than 12-18 months which I was told to expect with NHS
I am fortunate I could afford it … not good for those who can’t.
Unfortunately thats not an option for me, the thought of being like this (and it getting worse) for that amount of time is incredibly depressing and worrying.
I can understand that … would below be an option (available at Blackheath Hospital)?
Managed to blag a appointment, hernia confirmed. Apparently there is quite the waiting for the OP, so if I want it done soon I was recommended to go private...
That’s what I was told and did so … fixed in a few weeks rather than 12-18 months which I was told to expect with NHS
I am fortunate I could afford it … not good for those who can’t.
Unfortunately thats not an option for me, the thought of being like this (and it getting worse) for that amount of time is incredibly depressing and worrying.
I can understand that … would below be an option (available at Blackheath Hospital)?
Not really, after everything else that's gone up the last few years, another £400+ per month is just not an option.
Probably cost about £2500, financing £58 per month over 60 months.
It’s a long time to repay but at least you get it done quickly.
3k + that website said. Il wait for my scan and then see how long the wait Is. Tbh if it's over 6 months I kinda have no choice.
Sodding wild reading this. I had the same type back in 2007. Lived with it for a while but got to the point where I felt the need to do something. Saw the docs, confirmed hernia, saw the specialist about 10 days later then had my op 3 weeks after that.
Managed to blag a appointment, hernia confirmed. Apparently there is quite the waiting for the OP, so if I want it done soon I was recommended to go private...
That’s what I was told and did so … fixed in a few weeks rather than 12-18 months which I was told to expect with NHS
I am fortunate I could afford it … not good for those who can’t.
Unfortunately thats not an option for me, the thought of being like this (and it getting worse) for that amount of time is incredibly depressing and worrying.
I can understand that … would below be an option (available at Blackheath Hospital)?
Not really, after everything else that's gone up the last few years, another £400+ per month is just not an option.
Probably cost about £2500, financing £58 per month over 60 months.
It’s a long time to repay but at least you get it done quickly.
3k + that website said. Il wait for my scan and then see how long the wait Is. Tbh if it's over 6 months I kinda have no choice.
Sodding wild reading this. I had the same type back in 2007. Lived with it for a while but got to the point where I felt the need to do something. Saw the docs, confirmed hernia, saw the specialist about 10 days later then had my op 3 weeks after that.
Yeah I'm at least 6 months into this, but now at the point where it's impacting day to day life.
Managed to blag a appointment, hernia confirmed. Apparently there is quite the waiting for the OP, so if I want it done soon I was recommended to go private...
That’s what I was told and did so … fixed in a few weeks rather than 12-18 months which I was told to expect with NHS
I am fortunate I could afford it … not good for those who can’t.
Unfortunately thats not an option for me, the thought of being like this (and it getting worse) for that amount of time is incredibly depressing and worrying.
I can understand that … would below be an option (available at Blackheath Hospital)?
Not really, after everything else that's gone up the last few years, another £400+ per month is just not an option.
Probably cost about £2500, financing £58 per month over 60 months.
It’s a long time to repay but at least you get it done quickly.
3k + that website said. Il wait for my scan and then see how long the wait Is. Tbh if it's over 6 months I kinda have no choice.
Sodding wild reading this. I had the same type back in 2007. Lived with it for a while but got to the point where I felt the need to do something. Saw the docs, confirmed hernia, saw the specialist about 10 days later then had my op 3 weeks after that.
I was diagnosed with prostate cancer last April and long story short was told the prostatectemy/operation would likely be in September. I enquired re going private and could have it done that week. I paid to go private.
The NHS has had record funding. even Labour are saying vehemently, 'no extra funding without reform. And reform or die. It is NOT about additional funding but about reform and reducing astronomical waste
I'm not sure when Starmer says "reform" it means what you want it to mean. The recent announcement of the 10 year plan was around, "shifting the NHS from analogue to digital, putting more care in the community, and a focus on preventing people getting sick."
That's not the same as yet another restructure of the NHS or changing the funding model.
No details yet granted, but I can't see too much to object to in there and it clearly recognises some of the factors external to the NHS that myself and Canters mentioned above.
Out of interest are you in agreement or not that there are a lot of other factors outside the NHS control that also require urgent attention?
I don't think he has a different meaning of 'reform'
Agree with lots of whats been said but lets remember GP practices are private businesses and the contract that they operate under is outdated and in place long before most modern technology was in existence. As a result GP practices have far to much independence in how they operate a large number of things and the NHS cannot tell them how to operate even if it is better for the patient experience. GP practices also own their own data and can choose what and how much they share with the NHS which prevents analysis into how the system can be improved and how we can better target treatment and most importantly prevention.
Changing the GP model and phasing out the private GP practice model would be top of my list if I was in charge of reforming the NHS. It’s the most important factor in the Moving from hospital to community care - one of the 3 pillars of their 10 year plan for the NHS. It will be a difficult legal battle but we have a top lawyer for PM so if there is a time to tackle this it’s now. In my view this is the biggest blocker to the NHS performing well.
The NHS does need reform and I worked in it for thirty years. The real problem is that it’s not just about reforming the management structures or even funding. That’s been tried by practically every government since year dot. The whole ethos of the NHS needs a rethink. Everyone wants an NHS but nobody wants to actually pay what’s required to make it function well. That’s not just about throwing money at it but fundamentally changing how we fund and view our healthcare. For me, I would suggest that all accessed services come at a small individual cost. Means tested certainly but if you need a blood test then it’s £10:00. A general x-Ray £20:00 and so on. You get the drift. People have to feel that they are invested in the service and their own health. I think this is even more important than collecting the fees. At present too many people treat their health and those that provide their health services as some sort of god given right. Pitch up and it all falls into place like magic. I can tell you there isn’t much magic. People are fully prepared to spend a lot on all sorts of things yet ask them to invest a small amount in their own health and they object. I know that’s not everyone but it’s a majority I feel. Health technology and pharmacology changes at a breathtaking pace and it’s bloody expensive. Nobody should be expected to or need to go into debt or struggle with medical bills but I think the time has come where big decisions need to be made. An insurance based system would be a disaster but asking people to pay a little towards and take some responsibility for their own health is I think the only way to keep the NHS in a form we would still recognise and want. It’s going to be a long haul because getting the staffing issues sorted is a mountain in itself.
I'm afraid I don't agree.
I don't think the funding model is fundamentally broken. In the short term we are gonna have to pay more to fix the mess and in the medium term we will pay more than we should have to because 14 years of cuts largely focused on the prevention side mean we are a sicker population and so will have to pay for that while we wait for prevention on the next generation to catch up.
But, I still believe this should be funded through general taxation. I don't want to get into the realms of the politics thread but I believe there are ways to raise extra for this if needed and other European countries are starting to do so. The analysis is clear that even the smallest surcharge on these things will cause people to delay investigations and treatment and end up with adverse effects likely only getting treatment later which means its more expensive, more invasive longer recovery times, more ongoing care, longer out of work etc etc. This would have a much much worse effect on population health and the state of our NHS than the generation of missed prevention I mention above. It will only assure that costs are higher in the medium term.
You only have to look at the state of dentistry to see why keeping health free at the point of use is essential.
I can’t say that I disagree with you but for me there does need to be a sea change in how the nation feels about the NHS and in particular the need to take more responsibility for its own health. The NHS is loved by nearly all and nearly all take it completely for granted. I’m of the opinion that people are more connected to and feel invested in something when they are required to pay, even in some small part towards it. I’m talking small fees that are capped regardless of amount of useage. Every hospital has a cashiers office to take payment and let’s be honest a card payment machine could do 99% of the task. General taxation has to be the main and maintained funding model but I think people will have a little more respect and interest in their own health if they have to think about paying a small fee for accessed services. I’m always amazed that ask the average Joe where and what their pancreas is and 95% won’t have a clue. You get one body to see you through yet people are mostly blasé about why and how it works. When there’s a problem there are people who quite unbelievably rock up at A&E and have a headache or bruised toe. There’s no respect for the service by too many. It’s free and taken for granted. I worked sharp end for years and the amount of people who attend with a really shitty, unpleasant and arrogant attitude is astonishing.
Sorry, I think you are fundamentally wrong @ShootersHillGuru. One of the major problems with the NHS is the medical profession. One of the aspects is the way members of the profession blame patients, their customers !
You have provided an example, namely NHS customers going unnecessarily to A&E. You will always get some people doing this, it's what human beings do. However, when this happens in large numbers, the fault is with the NHS and the services it provides (or not !). Don't blame your customers.
I am posting a link to this article because It affects everyone in the country. It is written by Doctor Julia Grace a former NHS Doctor who has devoted her life to defending the NHS. It talks about NHS in-sourcing which I'm sure few have heard about, but to me sounds extremely alarming.
Agree with lots of whats been said but lets remember GP practices are private businesses and the contract that they operate under is outdated and in place long before most modern technology was in existence. As a result GP practices have far to much independence in how they operate a large number of things and the NHS cannot tell them how to operate even if it is better for the patient experience. GP practices also own their own data and can choose what and how much they share with the NHS which prevents analysis into how the system can be improved and how we can better target treatment and most importantly prevention.
Changing the GP model and phasing out the private GP practice model would be top of my list if I was in charge of reforming the NHS. It’s the most important factor in the Moving from hospital to community care - one of the 3 pillars of their 10 year plan for the NHS. It will be a difficult legal battle but we have a top lawyer for PM so if there is a time to tackle this it’s now. In my view this is the biggest blocker to the NHS performing well.
The NHS does need reform and I worked in it for thirty years. The real problem is that it’s not just about reforming the management structures or even funding. That’s been tried by practically every government since year dot. The whole ethos of the NHS needs a rethink. Everyone wants an NHS but nobody wants to actually pay what’s required to make it function well. That’s not just about throwing money at it but fundamentally changing how we fund and view our healthcare. For me, I would suggest that all accessed services come at a small individual cost. Means tested certainly but if you need a blood test then it’s £10:00. A general x-Ray £20:00 and so on. You get the drift. People have to feel that they are invested in the service and their own health. I think this is even more important than collecting the fees. At present too many people treat their health and those that provide their health services as some sort of god given right. Pitch up and it all falls into place like magic. I can tell you there isn’t much magic. People are fully prepared to spend a lot on all sorts of things yet ask them to invest a small amount in their own health and they object. I know that’s not everyone but it’s a majority I feel. Health technology and pharmacology changes at a breathtaking pace and it’s bloody expensive. Nobody should be expected to or need to go into debt or struggle with medical bills but I think the time has come where big decisions need to be made. An insurance based system would be a disaster but asking people to pay a little towards and take some responsibility for their own health is I think the only way to keep the NHS in a form we would still recognise and want. It’s going to be a long haul because getting the staffing issues sorted is a mountain in itself.
Doesn't matter how you fund the NHS, it'll still be f***ing inefficient ! Lovely and competent people running around like headless chickens!
What?
Lions led by donkeys.
Right. Surely part of it is there not being enough of them though. So how would more funding not solve that problem?
The NHS has had record funding. even Labour are saying vehemently, 'no extra funding without reform. And reform or die. It is NOT about additional funding but about reform and reducing astronomical waste
Of course there’s record funding. Just like the cost of your shopping basket at home has to reflect the increases in prices. It goes up week on week year on year. Even then the funding on the NHS has been squeezed year on year since 2010. Every metric you can name has got worse over the last fourteen years. Finally we’ve reached or very close to rock bottom and there is no quick fix to reverse fourteen years of decline. You’ve only got to look at the doctors pay disputes which showed how far behind they’d fallen behind as a window to the bigger picture. I totally agree that waste and inefficiency has to be rooted out but I’m sorry to say that if you think waiting lists, cancer outcomes and staffing issues are not going to need at least for the medium term additional and significant funding then you’ve not understood the problem.
I wouldn't worry about whether I think significant funding is required or not, but what the current government think - NO additional funding without reform. They do not think it is a case of just more (and more) funding - if it was just insufficient funding, then additional funding would be the solution.
30 July 2024: 'Overall NHS spending has increased in real terms since 2015/16. This has been driven by a £14.3 billion increase in spending on acute care, which accounts for over half of the overall increase in spending (£25.4 billion) over this time period.'
To put those figures into context they include all additional funding for covid including the initial response, purchasing enough vaccines for the whole population to have multiple doses, PPE waste, Test and trace billions. Despite that funding growth per head has been at its lowest level since the NHS's inception in the time the Tories were in charge.
So hardly like it's been thrown more than it needs and failed. It's actually been given much less than it needs with massive chunks of thatvsiphoned off for covid whether wasted or actually useful.
Starmer says no additional funding without reform and reform or die. Unusually, I agree with him. And I think Labour have a mandate to do something the Tories wouldn't have in the identical circumstances. He doesn't think the solution is more funding. If it was underfunded, the solution would be 'merely' be more funding
I am posting a link to this article because It affects everyone in the country. It is written by Doctor Julia Grace a former NHS Doctor who has devoted her life to defending the NHS. It talks about NHS in-sourcing which I'm sure few have heard about, but to me sounds extremely alarming.
The NHS has had record funding. even Labour are saying vehemently, 'no extra funding without reform. And reform or die. It is NOT about additional funding but about reform and reducing astronomical waste
Of course there’s record funding. Just like the cost of your shopping basket at home has to reflect the increases in prices. It goes up week on week year on year. Even then the funding on the NHS has been squeezed year on year since 2010. Every metric you can name has got worse over the last fourteen years. Finally we’ve reached or very close to rock bottom and there is no quick fix to reverse fourteen years of decline. You’ve only got to look at the doctors pay disputes which showed how far behind they’d fallen behind as a window to the bigger picture. I totally agree that waste and inefficiency has to be rooted out but I’m sorry to say that if you think waiting lists, cancer outcomes and staffing issues are not going to need at least for the medium term additional and significant funding then you’ve not understood the problem.
I wouldn't worry about whether I think significant funding is required or not, but what the current government think - NO additional funding without reform. They do not think it is a case of just more (and more) funding - if it was just insufficient funding, then additional funding would be the solution.
30 July 2024: 'Overall NHS spending has increased in real terms since 2015/16. This has been driven by a £14.3 billion increase in spending on acute care, which accounts for over half of the overall increase in spending (£25.4 billion) over this time period.'
To put those figures into context they include all additional funding for covid including the initial response, purchasing enough vaccines for the whole population to have multiple doses, PPE waste, Test and trace billions. Despite that funding growth per head has been at its lowest level since the NHS's inception in the time the Tories were in charge.
So hardly like it's been thrown more than it needs and failed. It's actually been given much less than it needs with massive chunks of thatvsiphoned off for covid whether wasted or actually useful.
Starmer says no additional funding without reform and reform or die. Unusually, I agree with him. And I think Labour have a mandate to do something the Tories wouldn't have in the identical circumstances. He doesn't think the solution is more funding. If it was underfunded, the solution would be 'merely' be more funding
There is absolutely no question that the NHS is and has been underfunded for years. Wages for the work and responsibilities are insulting and if you want proof of that one aspect of the NHS then look at why experienced and dedicated staff are leaving and a new generation of staff can’t be recruited. It’s just not an attractive career which is bonkers because there is so much that the various disciplines offer. If anyone has an answer to the recruitment problem that doesn’t include more funding I’m dying to hear it. Staffing is just one problem the NHS faces. Not enough specialised equipment per head of population another that simply demands extra funding. It’s actually so complex that I have no clue what will happen. Not much if there isn’t more money is my guess.
By way of example. This nursing example can be repeated in many other specialisms.
The NHS has had record funding. even Labour are saying vehemently, 'no extra funding without reform. And reform or die. It is NOT about additional funding but about reform and reducing astronomical waste
Of course there’s record funding. Just like the cost of your shopping basket at home has to reflect the increases in prices. It goes up week on week year on year. Even then the funding on the NHS has been squeezed year on year since 2010. Every metric you can name has got worse over the last fourteen years. Finally we’ve reached or very close to rock bottom and there is no quick fix to reverse fourteen years of decline. You’ve only got to look at the doctors pay disputes which showed how far behind they’d fallen behind as a window to the bigger picture. I totally agree that waste and inefficiency has to be rooted out but I’m sorry to say that if you think waiting lists, cancer outcomes and staffing issues are not going to need at least for the medium term additional and significant funding then you’ve not understood the problem.
I wouldn't worry about whether I think significant funding is required or not, but what the current government think - NO additional funding without reform. They do not think it is a case of just more (and more) funding - if it was just insufficient funding, then additional funding would be the solution.
30 July 2024: 'Overall NHS spending has increased in real terms since 2015/16. This has been driven by a £14.3 billion increase in spending on acute care, which accounts for over half of the overall increase in spending (£25.4 billion) over this time period.'
To put those figures into context they include all additional funding for covid including the initial response, purchasing enough vaccines for the whole population to have multiple doses, PPE waste, Test and trace billions. Despite that funding growth per head has been at its lowest level since the NHS's inception in the time the Tories were in charge.
So hardly like it's been thrown more than it needs and failed. It's actually been given much less than it needs with massive chunks of thatvsiphoned off for covid whether wasted or actually useful.
Starmer says no additional funding without reform and reform or die. Unusually, I agree with him. And I think Labour have a mandate to do something the Tories wouldn't have in the identical circumstances. He doesn't think the solution is more funding. If it was underfunded, the solution would be 'merely' be more funding
I'm not arguing against reform. I've literally laid out above what I would makebtopnofnmy list of I was reforming it. That doesn't mean it hasn't been under funded. It quite clearly has been massively underfunded.
No funding without reform doesn't mean that there won't be additional funding just that the funding will be to fund reform or as an incentive to reform
The NHS has had record funding. even Labour are saying vehemently, 'no extra funding without reform. And reform or die. It is NOT about additional funding but about reform and reducing astronomical waste
Of course there’s record funding. Just like the cost of your shopping basket at home has to reflect the increases in prices. It goes up week on week year on year. Even then the funding on the NHS has been squeezed year on year since 2010. Every metric you can name has got worse over the last fourteen years. Finally we’ve reached or very close to rock bottom and there is no quick fix to reverse fourteen years of decline. You’ve only got to look at the doctors pay disputes which showed how far behind they’d fallen behind as a window to the bigger picture. I totally agree that waste and inefficiency has to be rooted out but I’m sorry to say that if you think waiting lists, cancer outcomes and staffing issues are not going to need at least for the medium term additional and significant funding then you’ve not understood the problem.
I wouldn't worry about whether I think significant funding is required or not, but what the current government think - NO additional funding without reform. They do not think it is a case of just more (and more) funding - if it was just insufficient funding, then additional funding would be the solution.
30 July 2024: 'Overall NHS spending has increased in real terms since 2015/16. This has been driven by a £14.3 billion increase in spending on acute care, which accounts for over half of the overall increase in spending (£25.4 billion) over this time period.'
To put those figures into context they include all additional funding for covid including the initial response, purchasing enough vaccines for the whole population to have multiple doses, PPE waste, Test and trace billions. Despite that funding growth per head has been at its lowest level since the NHS's inception in the time the Tories were in charge.
So hardly like it's been thrown more than it needs and failed. It's actually been given much less than it needs with massive chunks of thatvsiphoned off for covid whether wasted or actually useful.
Starmer says no additional funding without reform and reform or die. Unusually, I agree with him. And I think Labour have a mandate to do something the Tories wouldn't have in the identical circumstances. He doesn't think the solution is more funding. If it was underfunded, the solution would be 'merely' be more funding
There is absolutely no question that the NHS is and has been underfunded for years. Wages for the work and responsibilities are insulting and if you want proof of that one aspect of the NHS then look at why experienced and dedicated staff are leaving and a new generation of staff can’t be recruited. It’s just not an attractive career which is bonkers because there is so much that the various disciplines offer. If anyone has an answer to the recruitment problem that doesn’t include more funding I’m dying to hear it. Staffing is just one problem the NHS faces. Not enough specialised equipment per head of population another that simply demands extra funding. It’s actually so complex that I have no clue what will happen. Not much if there isn’t more money is my guess.
By way of example. This nursing example can be repeated in many other specialisms.
The NHS has had record funding. even Labour are saying vehemently, 'no extra funding without reform. And reform or die. It is NOT about additional funding but about reform and reducing astronomical waste
Of course there’s record funding. Just like the cost of your shopping basket at home has to reflect the increases in prices. It goes up week on week year on year. Even then the funding on the NHS has been squeezed year on year since 2010. Every metric you can name has got worse over the last fourteen years. Finally we’ve reached or very close to rock bottom and there is no quick fix to reverse fourteen years of decline. You’ve only got to look at the doctors pay disputes which showed how far behind they’d fallen behind as a window to the bigger picture. I totally agree that waste and inefficiency has to be rooted out but I’m sorry to say that if you think waiting lists, cancer outcomes and staffing issues are not going to need at least for the medium term additional and significant funding then you’ve not understood the problem.
I wouldn't worry about whether I think significant funding is required or not, but what the current government think - NO additional funding without reform. They do not think it is a case of just more (and more) funding - if it was just insufficient funding, then additional funding would be the solution.
30 July 2024: 'Overall NHS spending has increased in real terms since 2015/16. This has been driven by a £14.3 billion increase in spending on acute care, which accounts for over half of the overall increase in spending (£25.4 billion) over this time period.'
To put those figures into context they include all additional funding for covid including the initial response, purchasing enough vaccines for the whole population to have multiple doses, PPE waste, Test and trace billions. Despite that funding growth per head has been at its lowest level since the NHS's inception in the time the Tories were in charge.
So hardly like it's been thrown more than it needs and failed. It's actually been given much less than it needs with massive chunks of thatvsiphoned off for covid whether wasted or actually useful.
Starmer says no additional funding without reform and reform or die. Unusually, I agree with him. And I think Labour have a mandate to do something the Tories wouldn't have in the identical circumstances. He doesn't think the solution is more funding. If it was underfunded, the solution would be 'merely' be more funding
There is absolutely no question that the NHS is and has been underfunded for years. Wages for the work and responsibilities are insulting and if you want proof of that one aspect of the NHS then look at why experienced and dedicated staff are leaving and a new generation of staff can’t be recruited. It’s just not an attractive career which is bonkers because there is so much that the various disciplines offer. If anyone has an answer to the recruitment problem that doesn’t include more funding I’m dying to hear it. Staffing is just one problem the NHS faces. Not enough specialised equipment per head of population another that simply demands extra funding. It’s actually so complex that I have no clue what will happen. Not much if there isn’t more money is my guess.
By way of example. This nursing example can be repeated in many other specialisms.
The NHS has had record funding. even Labour are saying vehemently, 'no extra funding without reform. And reform or die. It is NOT about additional funding but about reform and reducing astronomical waste
I'm not sure when Starmer says "reform" it means what you want it to mean. The recent announcement of the 10 year plan was around, "shifting the NHS from analogue to digital, putting more care in the community, and a focus on preventing people getting sick."
That's not the same as yet another restructure of the NHS or changing the funding model.
No details yet granted, but I can't see too much to object to in there and it clearly recognises some of the factors external to the NHS that myself and Canters mentioned above.
Out of interest are you in agreement or not that there are a lot of other factors outside the NHS control that also require urgent attention?
I don't think he has a different meaning of 'reform'
Don't you? I guess time will tell but, so far, the government hasn't said they intend to change the funding mechanism nor undertake another wholesale restructuring. If that's your definition of reform I fear you're going to be disappointed as there is next to zero chance of this government moving to an insurance based funding system, for example. And I don't see there being much appetite for getting rid of the NHS internal market or shaking up the trust system either.
I've set out above their headline priorities for the next decade, they don't, currently anyway, include wholesale structural changes, more a shift in emphasis and a kick up the backside to roll out technology more urgently.
Did you have a view on the other aspects impacting on the NHS btw? From what I can see if those other issues are not resolved too, the NHS is still going to struggle, "reformed" or not.
What we can be sure of is that while the fundamentals of the NHS problems are resolving, like for example staffing levels right across the board and playing catch up with technology for cancer treatments and I’m sure the list is endless, that the NHS will have to take advantage of the private healthcare sector to reduce waiting times for routine surgical procedures and diagnostic appointments. Until the backlog is manageable and some of the required changes are coming on line, it’s I’m afraid inevitable. The previous regime allowed the waiting lists to grow to unmanageable levels for purely ideological reasons. It’s a mess that is going to take time to resolve. I’d guess two parliaments at least. It will I’m afraid be expensive. Certainly in the medium term. Private assistance won’t be cheap.
Comments
Another thing. The buildings. A large number of the state of the art GP/Medical Centre premises are not owned by the GP partners or the NHS - they could not afford them. For example a company called Primary Health Properties owns in excess of 500 such properties and as a REIT pays out a nice little earner to its shareholders. While the medical centres get value for money rents to pay. It works for all parties. A blanket renationalisation of such premises would cost a fortune and be counter-productive. (But might tick all the political dogma boxes.)
I am fortunate I could afford it … not good for those who can’t.
You have provided an example, namely NHS customers going unnecessarily to A&E. You will always get some people doing this, it's what human beings do. However, when this happens in large numbers, the fault is with the NHS and the services it provides (or not !). Don't blame your customers.
BTW I'm not blaming you @ShootersHillGuru !
Unfortunately thats not an option for me, the thought of being like this (and it getting worse) for that amount of time is incredibly depressing and worrying.
https://www.circlehealthgroup.co.uk/paying-for-treatment/flexible-finance
So hardly like it's been thrown more than it needs and failed. It's actually been given much less than it needs with massive chunks of thatvsiphoned off for covid whether wasted or actually useful.
I enquired re going private and could have it done that week.
I paid to go private.
The lack of staff within the NHS is down to poor pay and conditions and a drain of staff from the NHS to the private sector.
By way of example. This nursing example can be repeated in many other specialisms.
https://www.nurses.co.uk/blog/stats-and-facts-uk-nursing-social-care-and-healthcare/#:~:text=There%20are%2046%2C828%20NHS%20nursing%20vacancies%20according%20to%20the%20most%20recent%20data.&text=If%20we%20add%20the%20number,a%20record%20high%20of%2011.8%25.
No funding without reform doesn't mean that there won't be additional funding just that the funding will be to fund reform or as an incentive to reform
I've set out above their headline priorities for the next decade, they don't, currently anyway, include wholesale structural changes, more a shift in emphasis and a kick up the backside to roll out technology more urgently.
Did you have a view on the other aspects impacting on the NHS btw? From what I can see if those other issues are not resolved too, the NHS is still going to struggle, "reformed" or not.