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An example of waste in the NHS

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  • The point is that it is private companies   which exist to make a profit, using NHS equipment  facilities and NHS staff.

    Pay the NHS staff more to work those hours and cut out the profit making private companies would be a much better use of resources.
    I don't think you can make blanket changes like this without causing chaos. Over the last few years I have had two endoscopy exams. Both were carried out by a private company working for the NHS and operating from NHS premises. The Company is called Inhealth, they have a number of operations including mobile centres and all are rated good by the CQC.  The thing is, sticking miniature cameras in peoples' orifices is a specialism and they are very good at it. Specialism does work. My GP said I could go private but the NHS service would be quicker, so that's what I did. 

    Another thing.  The buildings. A large number of the state of the art GP/Medical Centre premises are not owned by the GP partners or the NHS - they could not afford them. For example a company called Primary Health Properties owns in excess of 500 such properties and as a REIT pays out a nice little earner to its shareholders.  While the medical centres get value for money rents to pay.  It works for all parties. A blanket renationalisation of such premises would cost a fortune and be counter-productive. (But might tick all the political dogma boxes.)
  • cafcfan said:
    I don't think you can make blanket changes like this without causing chaos. Over the last few years I have had two endoscopy exams. Both were carried out by a private company working for the NHS and operating from NHS premises. The Company is called Inhealth, they have a number of operations including mobile centres and all are rated good by the CQC.  The thing is, sticking miniature cameras in peoples' orifices is a specialism and they are very good at it. Specialism does work. My GP said I could go private but the NHS service would be quicker, so that's what I did. 

    Another thing.  The buildings. A large number of the state of the art GP/Medical Centre premises are not owned by the GP partners or the NHS - they could not afford them. For example a company called Primary Health Properties owns in excess of 500 such properties and as a REIT pays out a nice little earner to its shareholders.  While the medical centres get value for money rents to pay.  It works for all parties. A blanket renationalisation of such premises would cost a fortune and be counter-productive. (But might tick all the political dogma boxes.)
    You're missing the point. If you read the article I posted in a link to Stig, private companies are using NHS premises, equipment and staff, out of hours. Why not properly pay the NHS staff to work those out of hours and save the profit element of a private company.
  • The locum rate has gone down recently. I was surprised as I can't imagine that will help clear waiting lists.
  • Managed to blag a appointment, hernia confirmed. Apparently there is quite the waiting for the OP, so if I want it done soon I was recommended to go private... 
  • shine166 said:
    Managed to blag a appointment, hernia confirmed. Apparently there is quite the waiting for the OP, so if I want it done soon I was recommended to go private... 
    Where is the hernia?
  • Where is the hernia?
    Inguinal hernia, which isnt as bad as it could be. Having issues owning a 5 year old son with it though and still having to do all the parent stuff like picking up etc.
  • shine166 said:
    Managed to blag a appointment, hernia confirmed. Apparently there is quite the waiting for the OP, so if I want it done soon I was recommended to go private... 
    That’s what I was told and did so … fixed in a few weeks rather than 12-18 months which I was told to expect with NHS

    I am fortunate I could afford it … not good for those who can’t.  
  • I can’t say that I disagree with you but for me there does need to be a sea change in how the nation feels about the NHS and in particular the need to take more responsibility for its own health. The NHS is loved by nearly all and nearly all take it completely for granted. I’m of the opinion that people are more connected to and feel invested in something when they are required to pay, even in some small part towards it. I’m talking small fees that are capped regardless of amount of useage. Every hospital has a cashiers office to take payment and let’s be honest a card payment machine could do 99% of the task. General taxation has to be the main and maintained funding model but I think people will have a little more respect and interest in their own health if they have to think about paying a small fee for accessed services. I’m always amazed that ask the average Joe where and what their pancreas is and 95% won’t have a clue. You get one body to see you through yet people are mostly blasé about why and how it works. When there’s a problem there are people who quite unbelievably rock up at A&E and have a headache or bruised toe. There’s no respect for the service by too many. It’s free and taken for granted. I worked sharp end for years and the amount of people who attend with a really shitty, unpleasant and arrogant attitude is astonishing. 
    Sorry, I think you are fundamentally wrong @ShootersHillGuru.  One of the major problems with the NHS is the medical profession.  One of the aspects is the way members of the profession blame patients, their customers !

    You have provided an example, namely NHS customers going unnecessarily to A&E.  You will always get some people doing this, it's what human beings do.  However, when this happens in large numbers, the fault is with the NHS and the services it provides (or not !).  Don't blame your customers.

    BTW I'm not blaming you @ShootersHillGuru !
  • stonemuse said:
    That’s what I was told and did so … fixed in a few weeks rather than 12-18 months which I was told to expect with NHS

    I am fortunate I could afford it … not good for those who can’t.  



    Unfortunately thats not an option for me, the thought of being like this (and it getting worse) for that amount of time is incredibly depressing and worrying.
  • shine166 said:



    Unfortunately thats not an option for me, the thought of being like this (and it getting worse) for that amount of time is incredibly depressing and worrying.
    I can understand that … would below be an option (available at Blackheath Hospital)?

    https://www.circlehealthgroup.co.uk/paying-for-treatment/flexible-finance


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  • stonemuse said:
    I can understand that … would below be an option (available at Blackheath Hospital)?

    https://www.circlehealthgroup.co.uk/paying-for-treatment/flexible-finance


    Not really, after everything else that's gone up the last few years, another £400+ per month is just not an option. 
  • shine166 said:
    Not really, after everything else that's gone up the last few years, another £400+ per month is just not an option. 
    Probably cost about £2500, financing £58 per month over 60 months. 

    It’s a long time to repay but at least you get it done quickly. 
  • I wouldn't worry about whether I think significant funding is required or not, but what the current government think - NO additional funding without reform. They do not think it is a case of just more (and more) funding - if it was just insufficient funding, then additional funding would be the solution. 

    30 July 2024: 'Overall NHS spending has increased in real terms since 2015/16. This has been driven by a £14.3 billion increase in spending on acute care, which accounts for over half of the overall increase in spending (£25.4 billion) over this time period.'
    To put those figures into context they include all additional funding for covid including the initial response, purchasing enough vaccines for the whole population to have multiple doses, PPE waste, Test and trace billions. Despite that funding growth per head has been at its lowest level since the NHS's inception in the time the Tories were in charge. 

    So hardly like it's been thrown more than it needs and failed. It's actually been given much less than it needs with massive chunks of thatvsiphoned off for covid whether wasted or actually useful.
  • stonemuse said:
    Probably cost about £2500, financing £58 per month over 60 months. 

    It’s a long time to repay but at least you get it done quickly. 
    3k + that website said. Il wait for my scan and then see how long the wait Is. Tbh if it's over 6 months I kinda have no choice. 
  • shine166 said:
    3k + that website said. Il wait for my scan and then see how long the wait Is. Tbh if it's over 6 months I kinda have no choice. 
    Sodding wild reading this. I had the same type back in 2007. Lived with it for a while but got to the point where I felt the need to do something. Saw the docs, confirmed hernia, saw the specialist about 10 days later then had my op 3 weeks after that.
  • cafcpolo said:
    Sodding wild reading this. I had the same type back in 2007. Lived with it for a while but got to the point where I felt the need to do something. Saw the docs, confirmed hernia, saw the specialist about 10 days later then had my op 3 weeks after that.
    Yeah I'm at least 6 months into this, but now at the point where it's impacting day to day life.
  • I'm not sure when Starmer says "reform" it means what you want it to mean. The recent announcement of the 10 year plan was around, "shifting the NHS from analogue to digital, putting more care in the community, and a focus on preventing people getting sick."

    https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-pm-starmer-promises-10-year-plan-fix-health-service-crisis-2024-09-11/

    That's not the same as yet another restructure of the NHS or changing the funding model.

    No details yet granted, but I can't see too much to object to in there and it clearly recognises some of the factors external to the NHS that myself and Canters mentioned above.

    Out of interest are you in agreement or not that there are a lot of other factors outside the NHS control that also require urgent attention? 


    I don't think he has a different meaning of 'reform'
  • Hex said:
    Sorry, I think you are fundamentally wrong @ShootersHillGuru.  One of the major problems with the NHS is the medical profession.  One of the aspects is the way members of the profession blame patients, their customers !

    You have provided an example, namely NHS customers going unnecessarily to A&E.  You will always get some people doing this, it's what human beings do.  However, when this happens in large numbers, the fault is with the NHS and the services it provides (or not !).  Don't blame your customers.

    BTW I'm not blaming you @ShootersHillGuru !
    There needs to be better education. And some sort of come back, albeit minor, of blatant mis-use of the 'free' system. It is free to many
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  • edited September 2024

    Thanks for taking the trouble to post this, ME14. It's scandalous; frankly I thought it would be when I saw that PFI was mentioned in the same breath.
  • Lions led by donkeys.
    Right. Surely part of it is there not being enough of them though. So how would more funding not solve that problem?
  • To put those figures into context they include all additional funding for covid including the initial response, purchasing enough vaccines for the whole population to have multiple doses, PPE waste, Test and trace billions. Despite that funding growth per head has been at its lowest level since the NHS's inception in the time the Tories were in charge. 

    So hardly like it's been thrown more than it needs and failed. It's actually been given much less than it needs with massive chunks of thatvsiphoned off for covid whether wasted or actually useful.
    Starmer says no additional funding without reform and reform or die. Unusually, I agree with him. And I think Labour have a mandate to do something the Tories wouldn't have in the identical circumstances. He doesn't think the solution is more funding. If it was underfunded, the solution would be 'merely' be more funding
  • Stig said:
    Thanks for taking the trouble to post the ME14. It's scandalous; frankly I thought it would be when I saw that PFI was mentioned in the same breath.
    I agree, it really shocked me.
  • edited September 2024
    Starmer says no additional funding without reform and reform or die. Unusually, I agree with him. And I think Labour have a mandate to do something the Tories wouldn't have in the identical circumstances. He doesn't think the solution is more funding. If it was underfunded, the solution would be 'merely' be more funding
    There is absolutely no question that the NHS is and has been underfunded for years. Wages for the work and responsibilities are insulting and if you want proof of that one aspect of the NHS then look at why experienced and dedicated staff are leaving and a new generation of staff can’t be recruited. It’s just not an attractive career which is bonkers because there is so much that the various disciplines offer. If anyone has an answer to the recruitment problem that doesn’t include more funding I’m dying to hear it. Staffing is just one problem the NHS faces. Not enough specialised equipment per head of population another that simply demands extra funding. It’s actually so complex that I have no clue what will happen. Not much if there isn’t more money is my guess.

    By way of example. This nursing example can be repeated in many other specialisms.

    https://www.nurses.co.uk/blog/stats-and-facts-uk-nursing-social-care-and-healthcare/#:~:text=There%20are%2046%2C828%20NHS%20nursing%20vacancies%20according%20to%20the%20most%20recent%20data.&text=If%20we%20add%20the%20number,a%20record%20high%20of%2011.8%25.
  • Starmer says no additional funding without reform and reform or die. Unusually, I agree with him. And I think Labour have a mandate to do something the Tories wouldn't have in the identical circumstances. He doesn't think the solution is more funding. If it was underfunded, the solution would be 'merely' be more funding
    I'm not arguing against reform. I've literally laid out above what I would makebtopnofnmy list of I was reforming it. That doesn't mean it hasn't been under funded. It quite clearly has been massively underfunded. 

    No funding without reform doesn't mean that there won't be additional funding just that the funding will be to fund reform or as an incentive to reform
  • There is absolutely no question that the NHS is and has been underfunded for years. Wages for the work and responsibilities are insulting and if you want proof of that one aspect of the NHS then look at why experienced and dedicated staff are leaving and a new generation of staff can’t be recruited. It’s just not an attractive career which is bonkers because there is so much that the various disciplines offer. If anyone has an answer to the recruitment problem that doesn’t include more funding I’m dying to hear it. Staffing is just one problem the NHS faces. Not enough specialised equipment per head of population another that simply demands extra funding. It’s actually so complex that I have no clue what will happen. Not much if there isn’t more money is my guess.

    By way of example. This nursing example can be repeated in many other specialisms.

    https://www.nurses.co.uk/blog/stats-and-facts-uk-nursing-social-care-and-healthcare/#:~:text=There%20are%2046%2C828%20NHS%20nursing%20vacancies%20according%20to%20the%20most%20recent%20data.&text=If%20we%20add%20the%20number,a%20record%20high%20of%2011.8%25.
    Better tell Starmer then (not me) as he's said no more funding without reform and reform or die
  • Better tell Starmer then (not me) as he's said no more funding without reform and reform or die
    Please read canters post above. 
  • I don't think he has a different meaning of 'reform'
    Don't you? I guess time will tell but, so far, the government hasn't said they intend to change the funding mechanism nor undertake another wholesale restructuring. If that's your definition of reform I fear you're going to be disappointed as there is next to zero chance of this government moving to an insurance based funding system, for example. And I don't see there being much appetite for getting rid of the NHS internal market or shaking up the trust system either. 

    I've set out above their headline priorities for the next decade, they don't, currently anyway, include wholesale structural changes, more a shift in emphasis and a kick up the backside to roll out technology more urgently. 

    Did you have a view on the other aspects impacting on the NHS btw? From what I can see if those other issues are not resolved too, the NHS is still going to struggle, "reformed" or not. 
  • What we can be sure of is that while the fundamentals of the NHS problems are resolving, like for example staffing levels right across the board and playing catch up with technology for cancer treatments and I’m sure the list is endless, that the NHS will have to take advantage of the private healthcare sector to reduce waiting times for routine surgical procedures and diagnostic appointments. Until the backlog is manageable and some of the required changes are coming on line, it’s I’m afraid inevitable. The previous regime allowed the waiting lists to grow to unmanageable levels for purely ideological reasons. It’s a mess that is going to take time to resolve. I’d guess two parliaments at least. It will I’m afraid be expensive. Certainly in the medium term. Private assistance won’t be cheap. 
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