Not completely relevant but through all this North Korea talk there is little to no mention of the millions of people suffering under the Kim regime. Whether they're starving in the countryside or being worked to death in the labour camps they're being ignored and cast aside in this 'nuclear war' discussion. I feel like if this was going on as publicly in 'closer to home' or more media followed Africa, Middle East and west Asia the uproar would be tenfold.
I know I'm in the minority but I think that conflict is needed. Simply through a lack of any other solution. Much like IS and other ideological groups there's no negotiation and no standing down, it's kill them or let them carry on in their reign of terror. Regardless of the superpower pinball following in an attempt to get control of the area something needs to be done to stop them.
I understand your sympathies for the ordinary people of North Korea; many (maybe most) are doubtlessly suffering badly under this regime. However, I don't agree that conflict is the solution. I don't believe that you can force democracy from outside. It has to come from within. The invasion of Iraq cost upwards of a million lives and left a power vacuum that has seen the country in turmoil ever since. The dispatching of Gaddafi led to a civil war and has made Libya ungovernable. Without guarantees that there are genuine freedom loving people who are willing and able to assume control and who would be supported by a clear majority of the populace you are on to a sure fire loser. And who is it who would be lead this conflict? America? UK? One of the other usual suspects? Perhaps China would like a go at showing off their muscles in their own back yard. What if one, or a group, of countries initiated military action and another country, or group, didn't like it because they don't want the aggressors to gain any more economic power in the region? We could end up with one hell of a mess on our hands. No thanks, I don't want to see the drama triangle played out on an international stage. It might seem old fashioned but I'd rather keep the peace and engage in some diplomacy rather than military action.
What is diplomacy going to achieve in this instance? What on earth is going to bring them to the table? What is going to trigger a revolution? Whether it's fear or admiration the people are programmed to obey by the word of the government at all costs. I accept my wording was perhaps too strong in the original post and like with everything else in history avoiding a war is the idea but I do genuinely find it hard to see an end to it without conflict.
I don't know the answers to any of your questions, Harry. It just seems preferable to me to try to talk than to attempt a military solution. If we can't talk with Pyongyang we should at least keep talking with it's neighbours. And even if there is nothing useful to say, I'd still think that a do nothing approach is infinitely better than starting military action that would likely result in a major war.
Not completely relevant but through all this North Korea talk there is little to no mention of the millions of people suffering under the Kim regime. Whether they're starving in the countryside or being worked to death in the labour camps they're being ignored and cast aside in this 'nuclear war' discussion. I feel like if this was going on as publicly in 'closer to home' or more media followed Africa, Middle East and west Asia the uproar would be tenfold.
I know I'm in the minority but I think that conflict is needed. Simply through a lack of any other solution. Much like IS and other ideological groups there's no negotiation and no standing down, it's kill them or let them carry on in their reign of terror. Regardless of the superpower pinball following in an attempt to get control of the area something needs to be done to stop them.
Of course the hideous nature of North Korea is deplorable but what you are floating here is much worse.
Even without nuclear weapons coming into play the North Koreans have huge conventional forces which should they attack the south would result in what the Americans have admitted would result in the deaths of around 2 million people and throw the region and dare I say it the world close to Armageddon.
As sad and unacceptable as it is to have thousands and thousands of North Koreans suffering the alternative is much worse in every way.
If a way of eliminating Kim Jong-Un can be found whilst getting his generals onside then as the Americans might say " way to go"
As mad is this dictator is, I can't see him dropping an missile on America or any country anytime soon. He is glorifying his insignificant country in a way that makes it feel more important. I think what Trump said was a bit too vague in terms of what would cause the effect. I have no issue with him threatening fire and power, but make it clear when this would happen - where the line is - and that until that happens, he will say no more on the subject and ignore the North Koreans shooting a few missiles into the sea to make some twat feel important.
The lunatic regime. No not that one, the fat one, no not that one the other one has now said its plans to fire 12 missiles accross Japan to land 17 miles from Guam would be ready within days if agreed by leader Kim Jong-Un.
Trump has drawn his red line and The White House has said such an action could result in the end of the NK regime.
Kim Jong-Un has had the chance to keep quiet and let the dust settle yet he has ratcheted up the ante yet again.
I'm really hoping the wording of North Koreas statement is allowing for KJU to refuse the option and to sit tight. I think that's what's happening here. Anything other than that is going to be a serious worry for us all.
As mad is this dictator is, I can't see him dropping an missile on America or any country anytime soon. He is glorifying his insignificant country in a way that makes it feel more important. I think what Trump said was a bit too vague in terms of what would cause the effect. I have no issue with him threatening fire and power, but make it clear when this would happen - where the line is - and that until that happens, he will say no more on the subject and ignore the North Koreans shooting a few missiles into the sea to make some twat feel important.
The problem with drawing a line is, if it's crossed, you HAVE to act, or look like a fool, like with Obama and the chemical weapons in Syria.
What I would do is make an estimate as to how much a conflict with North Korea would cost, then get together with all interested countries and with them try to create a fund consisting of half that figure. Then state that this money is a gift in trust for the first democratic Korean government to spend on enriching the lives of its people.
The news will spread, and it will encourage the North Koreans to sort out the problem. Of course, they already have an incentive, but they need a real belief in better times to face up to the violence and opression the regime will and already does use against them. They will need promises of protection for at least 20 years, against the ruthless global world that so many of them would be ill equiped to be part of.
What I would do is make an estimate as to how much a conflict with North Korea would cost, then get together with all interested countries and with them try to create a fund consisting of half that figure. Then state that this money is a gift in trust for the first democratic Korean government to spend on enriching the lives of its people.
The news will spread, and it will encourage the North Koreans to sort out the problem. Of course, they already have an incentive, but they need a real belief in better times to face up to the violence and opression the regime will and already does use against them. They will need promises of protection for at least 20 years, against the ruthless global world that so many of them would be ill equiped to be part of.
What I would do is make an estimate as to how much a conflict with North Korea would cost, then get together with all interested countries and with them try to create a fund consisting of half that figure. Then state that this money is a gift in trust for the first democratic Korean government to spend on enriching the lives of its people.
The news will spread, and it will encourage the North Koreans to sort out the problem. Of course, they already have an incentive, but they need a real belief in better times to face up to the violence and opression the regime will and already does use against them. They will need promises of protection for at least 20 years, against the ruthless global world that so many of them would be ill equiped to be part of.
I'm not sure you apprecaite how life really works in North Korea.
EDIT: Or any country that heavily uses indoctrination and propoganda, some of the stuff I hear from some older Chinese people is just plain insanity. People literally don't know about Tiannamen square, or the 60 million starved to death, this is decades after the event with the benefit of the internet.
Double edit: If I stop posting, assume I was arrested for the above...
There have been successful attempts to poll the views of the North Korean people and conclusions drawn that the vast majority - In the high 90 per cents want the regime out. The problem is, if you show even the mildest of opposition you will be brutally murdered if they find out. That is how dictatorships work generally, and a clear sign that fear is needed to rule there. But history shows us that there are always people of courage who are willing to lay down their lives for something better. You have to get the idea into the people that there is something much better, that's all. I don't understand why that notion seems less sensible than bombing them to oblivion.
There have been successful attempts to poll the views of the North Korean people and conclusions drawn that the vast majority - In the high 90 per cents want the regime out. The problem is, if you show even the mildest of opposition you will be brutally murdered if they find out. That is how dictatorships work generally, and a clear sign that fear is needed to rule there. But history shows us that there are always people of courage who are willing to lay down their lives for something better. You have to get the idea into the people that there is something much better, that's all. I don't understand why that notion seems less sensible than bombing them to oblivion.
The notion is laudable, Mutts - just not realistic.
What is more realistic is a coup by the generals in NK. One dictatorship replaced by another, yes, but at least more likely to be stable.
Why isn't it realistic? I know it isn't, but it is a valid question that deserves a proper answer. Not just that it isn't!
Ok - firstly, history tells us in pretty brutal relief that bribing/forcing/coercing a people/government/country to drop everything and embrace western democracy doesn't work.
Secondly. do you think China would be party to this miraculous transformation?
The people of NK should and eventually will decide who leads them and how they are lead - and not because of a monumental bribe from the west.
You say you know it won't work - so what are your reasons?
Similar to yours in one respect - the world is crap and full of self interest - not just China but all the other big players too. I don't think history tells us that it wouldn't work though, what does history tell us about recent toppling of dictators? I can see why you might call it bribing, but I would call it re-assuring.
Similar to yours in one respect - the world is crap and full of self interest - not just China but all the other big players too. I don't think history tells us that it wouldn't work though, what does history tell us about recent toppling of dictators? I can see why you might call it bribing, but I would call it re-assuring.
Where has it worked? Egypt? Syria? Iraq? I can't think of too many examples of success.
Why isn't it realistic? I know it isn't, but it is a valid question that deserves a proper answer. Not just that it isn't!
It's not realistic. The North Korean population is basically split between those that are party members who are doing relatively ok. The military who are doing relatively ok and all the others who are barely surviving and have no possibility of overthrowing the others.
That's not to say Kim Jong-Un won't soon become Kim Jong-Gone if enough of his generals see the only way of staying in power or even alive is to overthrow the leader.
Similar to yours in one respect - the world is crap and full of self interest - not just China but all the other big players too. I don't think history tells us that it wouldn't work though, what does history tell us about recent toppling of dictators? I can see why you might call it bribing, but I would call it re-assuring.
Where has it worked? Egypt? Syria? Iraq? I can't think of too many examples of success.
This. Whenever tyrants are removed by outside interference we never seem to have a plan in place to improve the situation. Any type of outside interference would almost certainly leed to military intervention and major loss of life. The best scenario would be for the people of NK to rise up and depose him,this can only be done with the help of the military. Will this happen any time soon probably not. in the meantime we can only monitor the situation
What I don't understand is what KJU is hoping to achieve from this grandstanding. They won't defeat anyone, they will get wiped out no doubt at the loss of lives... They have nothing to gain. Unless it really is all about trying to look hard in the face of the US. It's a no win situation
I don't think this conflict is about democracy or the removal of Kim. It's more about Kim and Donald both waving their penises in the air and saying mine is bigger than yours with Zi and Vladimir thumbling around with their flies open wanting to get their cock out too!
My guess is this is all simply a way of distracting the army in North Korea. Generals probably don't like sitting at home twiddling their thumbs, their minds wandering thinking maybe they'd do a better job than dear leader.. give them a war to constantly be preparing and working up for and they'll keep busy.
I don't get the complacency of some. Two headstrong guys in a pub can soon start a fight. Trump and Kim Yong-Un are two headstrong guys. If they stuck to using their fists, I wouldn't care, but there's a lot more damage that can be done with unknown side effects.
Its all a load of bullshit by two crazy mo fo leaders who don't give two shits about anything look at their hair ffs tells you everything you need to know
NK has been pulling the same shit for years, the difference now is the Donald will not want to back down.
Nothing will happen as long as a rocket doesn't hit Japan or Guam accidently, which is more likely than the NK managing to actually intend to hit those.
Comments
Even without nuclear weapons coming into play the North Koreans have huge conventional forces which should they attack the south would result in what the Americans have admitted would result in the deaths of around 2 million people and throw the region and dare I say it the world close to Armageddon.
As sad and unacceptable as it is to have thousands and thousands of North Koreans suffering the alternative is much worse in every way.
If a way of eliminating Kim Jong-Un can be found whilst getting his generals onside then as the Americans might say " way to go"
Trump has drawn his red line and The White House has said such an action could result in the end of the NK regime.
Kim Jong-Un has had the chance to keep quiet and let the dust settle yet he has ratcheted up the ante yet again.
I'm really hoping the wording of North Koreas statement is allowing for KJU to refuse the option and to sit tight. I think that's what's happening here. Anything other than that is going to be a serious worry for us all.
The news will spread, and it will encourage the North Koreans to sort out the problem. Of course, they already have an incentive, but they need a real belief in better times to face up to the violence and opression the regime will and already does use against them. They will need promises of protection for at least 20 years, against the ruthless global world that so many of them would be ill equiped to be part of.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/america-has-been-at-war-93-of-the-time-222-out-of-239-years-since-1776/5565946
EDIT: Or any country that heavily uses indoctrination and propoganda, some of the stuff I hear from some older Chinese people is just plain insanity. People literally don't know about Tiannamen square, or the 60 million starved to death, this is decades after the event with the benefit of the internet.
Double edit: If I stop posting, assume I was arrested for the above...
What is more realistic is a coup by the generals in NK. One dictatorship replaced by another, yes, but at least more likely to be stable.
Secondly. do you think China would be party to this miraculous transformation?
The people of NK should and eventually will decide who leads them and how they are lead - and not because of a monumental bribe from the west.
You say you know it won't work - so what are your reasons?
That's not to say Kim Jong-Un won't soon become Kim Jong-Gone if enough of his generals see the only way of staying in power or even alive is to overthrow the leader.
Whenever tyrants are removed by outside interference we never seem to have a plan in place to improve the situation.
Any type of outside interference would almost certainly leed to military intervention and major loss of life.
The best scenario would be for the people of NK to rise up and depose him,this can only be done with the help of the military.
Will this happen any time soon probably not.
in the meantime we can only monitor the situation
Nothing will happen as long as a rocket doesn't hit Japan or Guam accidently, which is more likely than the NK managing to actually intend to hit those.