I think one of the main reasons why there are always queues this side of the river is the tunnels. For the last 2 days there have been queues going back to J3 because of a breakdown in the tunnel (why is it people breakdown there ?? do they do it on purpose ?? they have 50 miles of the m25 to breakdown on & they do it in the most inaccessible place !!!! )
So, building another tunnel is just going to cause more problems, I know they shut the bridge in high winds, but I bet if you did a study over the past few years the tunnel will be shut far more times than the bridge was.
I hear that once the new bridge has paid for itself they will take away the toll charges
Personally I didn't have a problem with them keeping the toll charges. My issue is they sold it to a foreign based company who are now allowed to milk the profits that should have gone into the taxpayers coffers.
I hear that once the new bridge has paid for itself they will take away the toll charges
Personally I didn't have a problem with them keeping the toll charges. My issue is they sold it to a foreign based company who are now allowed to milk the profits that should have gone into the taxpayers coffers.
Well, that's a non-issue for you then. It wasn't sold. The management was outsourced. As, indeed, is the whole management of the M25. All the revenue goes to HMG who then pay the operator a pre-determined fee. A French firm - the same one that runs the French Toll roads - used to be called Sanef but has changed its name to Emovis Operations still collect the money. The latest figures lifted from Highways England show cash receipts collected by Emovis Operations for paid crossings are passed over gross to the Department for Transport (DfT). Total revenue recognised for the year ended 31 March 2016 amounted to £161.6m (2014-15: £99.8m). The actual management of the crossing is the responsibility of a business called Connect Plus Services, which is a joint venture owned by Balfour Beatty, Atkins and Egis Road operations. As well as the crossing, Connect Plus run the whole M25 plus adjoining trunk and slip roads. In total they look after 250 miles of road and 234 bridges for the Govt. They are also tasked with the upgrade works, maintenance, etc. So, if you don't mind the tolls, you can rest easy.
I hear that once the new bridge has paid for itself they will take away the toll charges
Personally I didn't have a problem with them keeping the toll charges. My issue is they sold it to a foreign based company who are now allowed to milk the profits that should have gone into the taxpayers coffers.
Well, that's a non-issue for you then. It wasn't sold. The management was outsourced. As, indeed, is the whole management of the M25. All the revenue goes to HMG who then pay the operator a pre-determined fee. A French firm - the same one that runs the French Toll roads - used to be called Sanef but has changed its name to Emovis Operations still collect the money. The latest figures lifted from Highways England show cash receipts collected by Emovis Operations for paid crossings are passed over gross to the Department for Transport (DfT). Total revenue recognised for the year ended 31 March 2016 amounted to £161.6m (2014-15: £99.8m). The actual management of the crossing is the responsibility of a business called Connect Plus Services, which is a joint venture owned by Balfour Beatty, Atkins and Egis Road operations. As well as the crossing, Connect Plus run the whole M25 plus adjoining trunk and slip roads. In total they look after 250 miles of road and 234 bridges for the Govt. They are also tasked with the upgrade works, maintenance, etc. So, if you don't mind the tolls, you can rest easy.
Except those you list are profit making companies. So will be taking a cut. We could run it ourselves and keep the entire from it from it.
I live in Dartford and the problems the tunnel causes on local roads has never been as bad as it is these days
Another crossing is basically 20 years too late
Will option C solve matters - who knows - it's 10 years away
I do find it interesting that the location of where the junction will come off the A2 has been vacant for years since the Little Chef closed - IMO it was a done deal years ago, and the millions wasted on studies and consultations etc is a disgrace
For those who think the 4th crossing should have been at Dartford - errrrr where would you put it ???? There isn't anywhere to put a 4th in Dartford (besides the fact that it's one of the worst air quality roads in Europe already)
Basically they have sweated the Dartford 'option' to the point where the 4th crossing has to be somewhere else
We will only know the impact of option C when it's completed
I hear that once the new bridge has paid for itself they will take away the toll charges
Personally I didn't have a problem with them keeping the toll charges. My issue is they sold it to a foreign based company who are now allowed to milk the profits that should have gone into the taxpayers coffers.
Well, that's a non-issue for you then. It wasn't sold. The management was outsourced. As, indeed, is the whole management of the M25. All the revenue goes to HMG who then pay the operator a pre-determined fee. A French firm - the same one that runs the French Toll roads - used to be called Sanef but has changed its name to Emovis Operations still collect the money. The latest figures lifted from Highways England show cash receipts collected by Emovis Operations for paid crossings are passed over gross to the Department for Transport (DfT). Total revenue recognised for the year ended 31 March 2016 amounted to £161.6m (2014-15: £99.8m). The actual management of the crossing is the responsibility of a business called Connect Plus Services, which is a joint venture owned by Balfour Beatty, Atkins and Egis Road operations. As well as the crossing, Connect Plus run the whole M25 plus adjoining trunk and slip roads. In total they look after 250 miles of road and 234 bridges for the Govt. They are also tasked with the upgrade works, maintenance, etc. So, if you don't mind the tolls, you can rest easy.
Except those you list are profit making companies. So will be taking a cut. We could run it ourselves and keep the entire from it from it.
Well, surely they don't outsource just for the hell of it do they? I'm guessing it's cheaper because keeping it in-house would incur extra wages and extra overheads like pension costs.
I hear that once the new bridge has paid for itself they will take away the toll charges
Personally I didn't have a problem with them keeping the toll charges. My issue is they sold it to a foreign based company who are now allowed to milk the profits that should have gone into the taxpayers coffers.
Well, that's a non-issue for you then. It wasn't sold. The management was outsourced. As, indeed, is the whole management of the M25. All the revenue goes to HMG who then pay the operator a pre-determined fee. A French firm - the same one that runs the French Toll roads - used to be called Sanef but has changed its name to Emovis Operations still collect the money. The latest figures lifted from Highways England show cash receipts collected by Emovis Operations for paid crossings are passed over gross to the Department for Transport (DfT). Total revenue recognised for the year ended 31 March 2016 amounted to £161.6m (2014-15: £99.8m). The actual management of the crossing is the responsibility of a business called Connect Plus Services, which is a joint venture owned by Balfour Beatty, Atkins and Egis Road operations. As well as the crossing, Connect Plus run the whole M25 plus adjoining trunk and slip roads. In total they look after 250 miles of road and 234 bridges for the Govt. They are also tasked with the upgrade works, maintenance, etc. So, if you don't mind the tolls, you can rest easy.
Except those you list are profit making companies. So will be taking a cut. We could run it ourselves and keep the entire from it from it.
Well, surely they don't outsource just for the hell of it do they? I'm guessing it's cheaper because keeping it in-house would incur extra wages and extra overheads like pension costs.
Yet the company bears those costs and still makes a profit... I'm normally all for privatisation of services but this is a no brain erm in my eyes.
Dartford is at a complete standstill again. I tried getting into the town center via temple hill and gave up.
Indeed. Crayford to Greenhithe takes well over an hour on nights like this.
The new tunnel probably will be too little too late but it wouldn't be fair inflicting that upon Dartford too. One between the bridge and Blackwall should be built as well.
Someone should investigate the legislation that gave the government permission to charge for access to a public road. Pretty sure it would have the rider "until the debt/investment is repaid". Which it has.
Someone should investigate the legislation that gave the government permission to charge for access to a public road. Pretty sure it would have the rider "until the debt/investment is repaid". Which it has.
Hansard for the second reading of the bill, helpfully provides this statement from the then Secretary of State: " The arrangements for financing the new crossing, the remaining costs of the tunnels and costs of maintenance during the toll period are innovative. DRC will finance expenditure which is not met from revenue by borrowing privately. The Bill proposes that it should be authorised to take tolls for a maximum of 20 years. Tolls should start at their present levels and be linked to the retail price index. If the revenue from tolls pays off DRC's costs within the 20-year period, the Bill requires the Secretary of State to bring the toll period to an early end. We expect that to happen. On present assumptions, tolls should cease 14 to 15 years after the crossing is transferred to the Secretary of State."
As it's an Act of Parliament it would have been voted in. Of course, this was still the time of the Thatcher Govt. Cunningly and rather typically for politicians it leaves plenty of wiggle room for doing what the hell they like in matters concerning the raising of tax revenue. The Act contains a section which delegates further responsibility to the relevant Secretary of State.
That would be why subsequent tampering with the legislation was by statutory instrument. There have been a staggering 46 such SIs concerning the crossing since, under governments of various hues.
The KEY one seems to be The A282 Trunk Road (Dartford–Thurrock Crossing Charging Scheme) Order 2002. Section 2 of that SI says "From the date when tolls ceases to be leviable under section 16 of the 1988 Act by the person appointed under section 11 of that Act, the highway described in Schedule 1 to this Order and indicated on the plan shall become subject to the charging regime set out in Schedule 2."
So, in short, the Secretary of State for transport just continued the charging regime after the date set in the Act because he could. The individual's name was Alistair Darling. Of course, he would have done nothing without the say so of the Chancellor of the Exchequer (Gordon Brown) and possibly the Prime Minister (Anthony Charles Lynton Blair). They are the individuals that should be hung drawn and quartered. (And not just for the Dartford Crossing charging fiasco either.)
I hear that once the new bridge has paid for itself they will take away the toll charges
Personally I didn't have a problem with them keeping the toll charges. My issue is they sold it to a foreign based company who are now allowed to milk the profits that should have gone into the taxpayers coffers.
Well, that's a non-issue for you then. It wasn't sold. The management was outsourced. As, indeed, is the whole management of the M25. All the revenue goes to HMG who then pay the operator a pre-determined fee. A French firm - the same one that runs the French Toll roads - used to be called Sanef but has changed its name to Emovis Operations still collect the money. The latest figures lifted from Highways England show cash receipts collected by Emovis Operations for paid crossings are passed over gross to the Department for Transport (DfT). Total revenue recognised for the year ended 31 March 2016 amounted to £161.6m (2014-15: £99.8m). The actual management of the crossing is the responsibility of a business called Connect Plus Services, which is a joint venture owned by Balfour Beatty, Atkins and Egis Road operations. As well as the crossing, Connect Plus run the whole M25 plus adjoining trunk and slip roads. In total they look after 250 miles of road and 234 bridges for the Govt. They are also tasked with the upgrade works, maintenance, etc. So, if you don't mind the tolls, you can rest easy.
Except those you list are profit making companies. So will be taking a cut. We could run it ourselves and keep the entire from it from it.
Well, surely they don't outsource just for the hell of it do they? I'm guessing it's cheaper because keeping it in-house would incur extra wages and extra overheads like pension costs.
Yet the company bears those costs and still makes a profit... I'm normally all for privatisation of services but this is a no brain erm in my eyes.
I'm not sure, so if as @cafcfan says they just pay other companies to manage it and don't share revenue... My thinking is:
There's the (theoretical) cost of the government running it: "A" Then there's the cost of these private companies running it: "B"
Can safely assume that B < A, as the Balfour Beatty, Atkins & Egis Road specialize in engineering and already have the skills. (That's even ignoring how private companies' are generally more profit-driven and efficient as that could be argued).
As long as the government pay the private companies less than "A" and more than "B" - then it's win-win. Only problem is if the govt. don't know what "A" is and overpay as private companies take advantage of the govt.'s tendency to outsource at all costs.
I live in Dartford and for £20 I get unlimited crossings a year. The problem is that I only use it for the odd trip to Lakeside so it's still cheaper for me to pay full whack when I want to cross the river
I work with a bloke from Orsett whose house (per most recent plans) is going to be 10m from the proposed 6 lane road to the new tunnel.
He got a letter advising of the potential for this 2 years ago.....just 3 weeks after moving in. How's yer luck?!?
It might not be all bad. Assuming his house isn't compulsorily purchased anyway, he'll be able to make a hefty compo claim - a Part One compensation claim I think it's called. Any time soon he'll be getting letters from firms that specialise in making claims on behalf of residents. I believe their services are free to the homeowner with the Govt. paying the tab.
By way of example a bypass was built (maybe a little over half a mile away as the crow flies) near our house. We knew it was happening - it came up in the searches when we bought. Still got a few grand compo for noise which, frankly, I was very surprised about - can't hear anything in the house and only outdoors if the wind is in the wrong direction. There are now plans to widen the bypass from two to three lanes each way. It seems we'll get more money.
I work with a bloke from Orsett whose house (per most recent plans) is going to be 10m from the proposed 6 lane road to the new tunnel.
He got a letter advising of the potential for this 2 years ago.....just 3 weeks after moving in. How's yer luck?!?
I know them houses. They were only built just over two years ago. How that was allowed when the gov have known for many many years where they wanted this road to go is beyond me. I heard that they are not deemed to be close enough for a buyout!. Should be fun with the racket from this out the front and the A13 out the back!!
There is no money to pay for it anyway. The country is broke. We could always do what do in the Republic of Ireland -Use EU money to pay for major infrastructure projects. Oh, hang on a minute, cancel that one.
I work with a bloke from Orsett whose house (per most recent plans) is going to be 10m from the proposed 6 lane road to the new tunnel.
He got a letter advising of the potential for this 2 years ago.....just 3 weeks after moving in. How's yer luck?!?
I know them houses. They were only built just over two years ago. How that was allowed when the gov have known for many many years where they wanted this road to go is beyond me. I heard that they are not deemed to be close enough for a buyout!. Should be fun with the racket from this out the front and the A13 out the back!!
Changes to the payment system for journeys across the Dartford Crossing will come into force next month – and drivers will need to take action on their account or risk being issued with PCNs.
A new service provider named Conduent has been appointed for the responsibility of vehicle identification, payment processing and account management.
These changes and new banking requirements mean that Dart Charge account holders will need to re-validate their payment cards from July 28, 2023, including Pay as You Go customers.
Comments
So, building another tunnel is just going to cause more problems, I know they shut the bridge in high winds, but I bet if you did a study over the past few years the tunnel will be shut far more times than the bridge was.
So, the new plan is fundamentally flawed.
The management was outsourced. As, indeed, is the whole management of the M25.
All the revenue goes to HMG who then pay the operator a pre-determined fee. A French firm - the same one that runs the French Toll roads - used to be called Sanef but has changed its name to Emovis Operations still collect the money. The latest figures lifted from Highways England show cash receipts collected by Emovis Operations for paid crossings are passed over gross to the Department for Transport (DfT). Total revenue recognised for the year ended 31 March 2016 amounted to £161.6m (2014-15: £99.8m). The actual management of the crossing is the responsibility of a business called Connect Plus Services, which is a joint venture owned by Balfour Beatty, Atkins and Egis Road operations. As well as the crossing, Connect Plus run the whole M25 plus adjoining trunk and slip roads. In total they look after 250 miles of road and 234 bridges for the Govt. They are also tasked with the upgrade works, maintenance, etc. So, if you don't mind the tolls, you can rest easy.
Another crossing is basically 20 years too late
Will option C solve matters - who knows - it's 10 years away
I do find it interesting that the location of where the junction will come off the A2 has been vacant for years since the Little Chef closed - IMO it was a done deal years ago, and the millions wasted on studies and consultations etc is a disgrace
For those who think the 4th crossing should have been at Dartford - errrrr where would you put it ???? There isn't anywhere to put a 4th in Dartford (besides the fact that it's one of the worst air quality roads in Europe already)
Basically they have sweated the Dartford 'option' to the point where the 4th crossing has to be somewhere else
We will only know the impact of option C when it's completed
The new tunnel probably will be too little too late but it wouldn't be fair inflicting that upon Dartford too. One between the bridge and Blackwall should be built as well.
Hansard for the second reading of the bill, helpfully provides this statement from the then Secretary of State: " The arrangements for financing the new crossing, the remaining costs of the tunnels and costs of maintenance during the toll period are innovative. DRC will finance expenditure which is not met from revenue by borrowing privately. The Bill proposes that it should be authorised to take tolls for a maximum of 20 years. Tolls should start at their present levels and be linked to the retail price index. If the revenue from tolls pays off DRC's costs within the 20-year period, the Bill requires the Secretary of State to bring the toll period to an early end. We expect that to happen. On present assumptions, tolls should cease 14 to 15 years after the crossing is transferred to the Secretary of State."
As it's an Act of Parliament it would have been voted in. Of course, this was still the time of the Thatcher Govt. Cunningly and rather typically for politicians it leaves plenty of wiggle room for doing what the hell they like in matters concerning the raising of tax revenue. The Act contains a section which delegates further responsibility to the relevant Secretary of State.
That would be why subsequent tampering with the legislation was by statutory instrument. There have been a staggering 46 such SIs concerning the crossing since, under governments of various hues.
The KEY one seems to be The A282 Trunk Road (Dartford–Thurrock Crossing Charging Scheme) Order 2002. Section 2 of that SI says "From the date when tolls ceases to be leviable under section 16 of the 1988 Act by the person appointed under section 11 of that Act, the highway described in Schedule 1 to this Order and indicated on the plan shall become subject to the charging regime set out in Schedule 2."
So, in short, the Secretary of State for transport just continued the charging regime after the date set in the Act because he could. The individual's name was Alistair Darling. Of course, he would have done nothing without the say so of the Chancellor of the Exchequer (Gordon Brown) and possibly the Prime Minister (Anthony Charles Lynton Blair). They are the individuals that should be hung drawn and quartered. (And not just for the Dartford Crossing charging fiasco either.)
There's the (theoretical) cost of the government running it: "A"
Then there's the cost of these private companies running it: "B"
Can safely assume that B < A, as the Balfour Beatty, Atkins & Egis Road specialize in engineering and already have the skills. (That's even ignoring how private companies' are generally more profit-driven and efficient as that could be argued).
As long as the government pay the private companies less than "A" and more than "B" - then it's win-win. Only problem is if the govt. don't know what "A" is and overpay as private companies take advantage of the govt.'s tendency to outsource at all costs.
He got a letter advising of the potential for this 2 years ago.....just 3 weeks after moving in. How's yer luck?!?
By way of example a bypass was built (maybe a little over half a mile away as the crow flies) near our house. We knew it was happening - it came up in the searches when we bought. Still got a few grand compo for noise which, frankly, I was very surprised about - can't hear anything in the house and only outdoors if the wind is in the wrong direction. There are now plans to widen the bypass from two to three lanes each way. It seems we'll get more money.
I heard that they are not deemed to be close enough for a buyout!. Should be fun with the racket from this out the front and the A13 out the back!!
The joys of motorcycling I suppose.........................
A new service provider named Conduent has been appointed for the responsibility of vehicle identification, payment processing and account management.
These changes and new banking requirements mean that Dart Charge account holders will need to re-validate their payment cards from July 28, 2023, including Pay as You Go customers.
https://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/23622321.changes-dartford-crossing-dart-charge-payments-revealed/https://www.kentlive.news/news/kent-news/dart-charge-payment-changes-coming-8560439
https://www.essexlive.news/news/essex-news/dartford-crossing-charges-set-changed-8569676