Prague, my second comment was to justify why for debate's sake I'll take the minority viewpoint. I agree with you The Valley is a cracking ground. Until the weekend I had no thought in my mind for us to leave. But someone, somewhere, decided a stadium might be viable and their idea was published. Granted, it didn't mention Charlton as an owner/tenant but I'm trying to come up with reasons why it could be a good idea and how it could work for Charlton. I agree NYA is arguing an excellent case - for the sake of debate he looked like he could do with a few more backing his corner.
An example of a problem that's been raised about a new stadium on the proposed site - people can't get there. I've seen lots of people say that's a reason not to move, but no one coming up with a solution that would tackle the problem (apart from laying on a few more buses). Okay it was off the top of my head, but I've come up with a solution but haven't seen anyone else attempt (or want) to do so, and I picked up on it.
As for The Valley generating poor corporate revenue, to be honest I suspect that comes down to location. Yes, in SE7 the club could possibly squeeze more money out of local firms, but in North Greenwich and as part of a big project I'd have to predict our chances would be way better. I'm not convinced that 'build it and they will come' applies to SE7. Possible measures could be our corporate income in the Premier League years - when the club was peaking, roughly how much corporate business were we having to turn away? As for any corporate business we're not capitalising on now, is this due to a shortage of corporate capacity or are we paying the opportunity cost of the existing facilities not being up to scratch? Airman might have a good feel for this.
Coventry, agree they're an exception, but that's why I said pretty much every club.
Good debate!
Fair do's. I guess I have become so used to people accusing others of being anti-board etc, rather than focusing on the issues. Sorry for suspecting you of that, when clearly you are just trying to look at all sides.
It mainly worries me that the Valley is a decent stadium, most of those that were replaced were not, and I am suspicious therefore of the motivation to leave and build anew. The Murray board of 1999ish looked at moving, as scabbyhorse reminded us, and decided against it. The last time I spoke with Richard Murray about this, he still didn't seem to think we needed to leave from a business standpoint.
As you say good debate, and some of the pro reasons are well argued. What is missing now is somebody who knows what might be possible, to say what is possible to develop at The Valley, and whether that would be so expensive. Like I said earlier; filling in the corners, which would keep the sound in, but using those corners for corporate boxes and restaurants...I have no idea of course how feasible that is in building terms
Prague, my second comment was to justify why for debate's sake I'll take the minority viewpoint. I agree with you The Valley is a cracking ground. Until the weekend I had no thought in my mind for us to leave. But someone, somewhere, decided a stadium might be viable and their idea was published. Granted, it didn't mention Charlton as an owner/tenant but I'm trying to come up with reasons why it could be a good idea and how it could work for Charlton. I agree NYA is arguing an excellent case - for the sake of debate he looked like he could do with a few more backing his corner.
An example of a problem that's been raised about a new stadium on the proposed site - people can't get there. I've seen lots of people say that's a reason not to move, but no one coming up with a solution that would tackle the problem (apart from laying on a few more buses). Okay it was off the top of my head, but I've come up with a solution but haven't seen anyone else attempt (or want) to do so, and I picked up on it.
As for The Valley generating poor corporate revenue, to be honest I suspect that comes down to location. Yes, in SE7 the club could possibly squeeze more money out of local firms, but in North Greenwich and as part of a big project I'd have to predict our chances would be way better. I'm not convinced that 'build it and they will come' applies to SE7. Possible measures could be our corporate income in the Premier League years - when the club was peaking, roughly how much corporate business were we having to turn away? As for any corporate business we're not capitalising on now, is this due to a shortage of corporate capacity or are we paying the opportunity cost of the existing facilities not being up to scratch? Airman might have a good feel for this.
Coventry, agree they're an exception, but that's why I said pretty much every club.
Good debate!
Fair do's. I guess I have become so used to people accusing others of being anti-board etc, rather than focusing on the issues. Sorry for suspecting you of that, when clearly you are just trying to look at all sides.
It mainly worries me that the Valley is a decent stadium, most of those that were replaced were not, and I am suspicious therefore of the motivation to leave and build anew. The Murray board of 1999ish looked at moving, as scabbyhorse reminded us, and decided against it. The last time I spoke with Richard Murray about this, he still didn't seem to think we needed to leave from a business standpoint.
As you say good debate, and some of the pro reasons are well argued. What is missing now is somebody who knows what might be possible, to say what is possible to develop at The Valley, and whether that would be so expensive. Like I said earlier; filling in the corners, which would keep the sound in, but using those corners for corporate boxes and restaurants...I have no idea of course how feasible that is in building terms
As I stated earlier, I can only speak as a run of the mill Fan and "speaking " with my heart, feel that The Valley is our home and always should be.
However, I have read Prague's suggestion of filling in the corners to engender enhanced income from corporate boxes etc and wanted to comment on this.
Although I haven't used the JS Stand since we returned home and prior to the East being built, I'm assuming that a deal of work ( and expense) would be required to match the approach/surrounding area of that part of the ground to the standard of "posh boxes & restaurants". I'm picturing the requirement for a covered concourse of some description for the SE quadrant whilst I'm guessing that the SW could be accessed via Main Reception & extended corridors. And anyone that has been involved in bringing an older property up to date will know how easily one thing leads to another....and how the costs increase once work has begun.
The other point I wanted to highlight is the general state of the ground some 20+ years following our return. Whilst seat cleaning a few weeks ago, it was evident that at a time when staffing levels are being squeezed, "the old girl" is in need of some serious maintenance. It was noticeable that some steps in the Lower West are starting to crumble, that pigeon poo is an ongoing problem in some parts with the solution being prohibitively expensive and that although a lick of paint has smartened up certain areas ( thanks to volunteers like Tony Jordan) there is the need for some financial input to address the general wear & tear of the stadium IMHO. And we know only too well that is unlikely to happen in the current climate....
On reflection, what I'm saying is that if we want to increase income from the corporate side, then maybe the ground as a whole has to be taken into consideration which in itself would be an unwelcome expense. I'm in no way saying the The Valley is on her last legs but she IS looking tired & possibly in need of a facelift ( a bit like this Fan!) There's no point injecting botox in the corners if the remaining areas are sagging ....And then , of course, there is the danger of damage to upmarket cars from the notorious potholes !
Anyway, just my musings, guys 'n gals which invariably will be of scant importance in this interesting discussion . Sometimes you just have to get something off your chest....
"The analogy for me is that I have accumulated a massive debt but own my house outright. I can sell my house and pay off my debt, maybe even have a few quid left over but then I have to rent somewhere else to live and not only do my monthly outgoings go up but my landlord won't let me paint the hallway or hang a picture, they're screwing me around on the security deposit and they keep letting other people in to look around."
Two sides to every story. When you rent you don't have to worry about the expense of painting you own hallway and a picture rail has been provided to hang pictures from. And just because you own your house you have to get planning permission to build and you can't just dig down in the ground and do something completely different. You could say in a mortgage the bank owns your house but you pay the maintenence. When you rent the landlord owns it and the repair bill. Also the deposit and other viewers is only relevant when you leave. I don't think a football stadium has ever been sold to another football club(?) Cutting costs from renting the ground can be a good think when margins are so tight. I don't think you can rule it out just because its renting.
Prague it's fine, it can be tricky sometimes to guage the intentions of posts on here when you don't know the author. I only know 3 of the regular posters, GlassHalfFull (my Dad), Airman (used to sell VOTV for him) and AFKA (in the same year as him at school). I recognise your name too as a trusted contributor on here.
I'm not anti-board or pro-board because I don't know the details closely enough to have a view - consider me board-neutral. I'm sure when I get the latest VOTV some of the blanks will be filled in for me, however! Mark Kleinman used to be my neighbour too, so will be interested to read his VOTV comments, what with him being another of the few that I actually know.
Be interesting to see if Airman has ideas on the actuals and the potentials for corporate income at The Valley, he should be well placed to come up with something.
I'll leave it a bit and come back with some more pros to us moving!
Ebbsfleet in not the centre of our support by numbers. That's probably Eltham/Sidcup. Most supporters live inside the M25, where the population is considerably more dense (read into that what you will!). I'd no more assume people would travel out than in, and I don't advocate leaving London/Greenwich/SE7 for that reason alone, althoughat least in Kent there would probably be parking!
The Trust asked for the first two digits of the fans post code and you would be surprised at the distribution... I won't quote numbers off the top of my head but the significant answers were SE, DA, BR, TN and ME plus various codes in Kent, Essex and Surrey... we did this to feed supporter details back to branches if the fans stated they were interested. Exact mid point needs either the whole database or a way of eliminating bias but the most convenient* transport point by car would be near M25 / A2/ A20 as in minimum cumulative miles for all... by train it all depends.
NB I am not advocating any such move simply because the Valley does a job right now and there is potential there to expand IMHO
I really wouldn't be surprised. I've been analysing where our support - season tickets, ticket purchasers and others - lives for more than 20 years. The club database last year had 66k people on it, a rather bigger sample than any survey that could be carried out.
The biggest postcodes are DA and SE in that order, but much of DA is in the London Borough of Bexley. The others are significant, but these are 60 per cent.
The public transport links to the O2 are usually fine it's true but they are no better than to Charlton itself, the railway station is very well served (apart from boxing day) plus the countless bus routes. Suggesting it's as easy or easier to get to the O2 than to the Valley is simply untrue - have you ever tried getting to the O2 during the evening rush hour or when TfL are 'maintaining' the Jubilee line? If transport to the peninsula is part of the business case then the whole thing must be questionable.
Ebbsfleet in not the centre of our support by numbers. That's probably Eltham/Sidcup. Most supporters live inside the M25, where the population is considerably more dense (read into that what you will!). I'd no more assume people would travel out than in, and I don't advocate leaving London/Greenwich/SE7 for that reason alone, althoughat least in Kent there would probably be parking!
The Trust asked for the first two digits of the fans post code and you would be surprised at the distribution... I won't quote numbers off the top of my head but the significant answers were SE, DA, BR, TN and ME plus various codes in Kent, Essex and Surrey... we did this to feed supporter details back to branches if the fans stated they were interested. Exact mid point needs either the whole database or a way of eliminating bias but the most convenient* transport point by car would be near M25 / A2/ A20 as in minimum cumulative miles for all... by train it all depends.
NB I am not advocating any such move simply because the Valley does a job right now and there is potential there to expand IMHO
I really wouldn't be surprised. I've been analysing where our support - season tickets, ticket purchasers and others - lives for more than 20 years. The club database last year had 66k people on it, a rather bigger sample than any survey that could be carried out.
The biggest postcodes are DA and SE in that order, but much of DA is in the London Borough of Bexley. The others are significant, but these are 60 per cent.
Could one argue the club has exhausted the potential opportunities in its 'traditional' postcodes? After all, attendances have been falling despite Valley Express, 'football for a fiver' and other locally-focused initiatives.
The bigger question in my view is whether moving to a more accessible location for a much wider potential support base may in time attract interest from non-traditional areas of support. I would imagine (although AB might confirm either way) that during the Premiership seasons, our support base will have been more diversely located than they were in say the dark League One days.
I assume from their sold-out crowds and previous tiny support base that Fulham for example have been particularly good at attracting fans from a wide variety of sources (including many tourists) simply by providing a friendly, fairly-priced and accessible place to watch Premiership football (despite the Cottage being a crappy stadium as noted above). If they had a modern 40,000 stadium in a good location, I'd imagine they'd fill that too for the same reasons.
Some on this thread have suggested we can't compete with the global brand of the likes of Arsenal, Spurs or Chelsea. This is absolutely true in the medium-term but we can compete on accessibility, ticket pricing and overall 'experience'. We have a well-earned reputation as a family club after all.
CAFC have moved to a new ground - just that it is sited on top of the old one!
We still have the Jimmy Seed stand in all its glory, and the Covered End remains without its cover. I know what you're saying, but it's our ground that has developed sympathetically, not a new ground designed by non-football fans with no empathy for who we are and our history. It's also the same pitch, albeit a bit 'Trigger's broom', that Sam Bartram, Eddie Firmani etc played on.
Why would you loan a football club £15M over two years in order to "cash in" on one of the assets?
Well you wouldn't. You might own a club losing money that you have to put in to keep your investment alive, only to find no-one's prepared to buy and the only way to get the money back you owe your financiers, who might be waiting to take your fingers off, is to sell your home and go renting.
I know woolwich dlr isnt much but it does link eventually to the tube and the dome. Sorry for poorly wording previously I am on naff wifi in croatian hotel..
Also don't know enough about the zone thing to comment, altho wd be interested to know what zone the Valley is. Also suspect that would mean squat if big investment were coming in.
Ebbsfleet in not the centre of our support by numbers. That's probably Eltham/Sidcup. Most supporters live inside the M25, where the population is considerably more dense (read into that what you will!). I'd no more assume people would travel out than in, and I don't advocate leaving London/Greenwich/SE7 for that reason alone, althoughat least in Kent there would probably be parking!
The Trust asked for the first two digits of the fans post code and you would be surprised at the distribution... I won't quote numbers off the top of my head but the significant answers were SE, DA, BR, TN and ME plus various codes in Kent, Essex and Surrey... we did this to feed supporter details back to branches if the fans stated they were interested. Exact mid point needs either the whole database or a way of eliminating bias but the most convenient* transport point by car would be near M25 / A2/ A20 as in minimum cumulative miles for all... by train it all depends.
NB I am not advocating any such move simply because the Valley does a job right now and there is potential there to expand IMHO
I really wouldn't be surprised. I've been analysing where our support - season tickets, ticket purchasers and others - lives for more than 20 years. The club database last year had 66k people on it, a rather bigger sample than any survey that could be carried out.
The biggest postcodes are DA and SE in that order, but much of DA is in the London Borough of Bexley. The others are significant, but these are 60 per cent.</blockquote
Interesting stuff airman, always had a feeling that support was around here in DA, and further out....... than outside of say Lewisham/Brockley. I know when I lived in Charlton 40 years ago,there was a significant following of other teams, especially on the estates that surround upper Charlton. I am sure the prem years may have enticed more local people, especially the excellent work of the kids for a quid and school tickets, which I thought was an excellent idea. I have always thought that if you get them young you have them for life, or at least you have a possibility of keeping them for life. Moving to the Peninsular is therefore moving away from our heartland. I am sure the young aspiring, upwardly mobile might be an attractive proposition for the planners to aspire to, and the idea of a meal, a drink afterwards etc. Personally I tend to shy away from package football, but it may be a way forward. I am sure the developers will produce the flow charts , and power points where they can demonstrate a viable business. However I tend to have major reservations about a lot of this proposition to seriously consider this little more than an aspirational idea which has little basis in reality, outside the developers dreams.
Ebbsfleet in not the centre of our support by numbers. That's probably Eltham/Sidcup. Most supporters live inside the M25, where the population is considerably more dense (read into that what you will!). I'd no more assume people would travel out than in, and I don't advocate leaving London/Greenwich/SE7 for that reason alone, althoughat least in Kent there would probably be parking!
The Trust asked for the first two digits of the fans post code and you would be surprised at the distribution... I won't quote numbers off the top of my head but the significant answers were SE, DA, BR, TN and ME plus various codes in Kent, Essex and Surrey... we did this to feed supporter details back to branches if the fans stated they were interested. Exact mid point needs either the whole database or a way of eliminating bias but the most convenient* transport point by car would be near M25 / A2/ A20 as in minimum cumulative miles for all... by train it all depends.
NB I am not advocating any such move simply because the Valley does a job right now and there is potential there to expand IMHO
I really wouldn't be surprised. I've been analysing where our support - season tickets, ticket purchasers and others - lives for more than 20 years. The club database last year had 66k people on it, a rather bigger sample than any survey that could be carried out.
The biggest postcodes are DA and SE in that order, but much of DA is in the London Borough of Bexley. The others are significant, but these are 60 per cent.
Could one argue the club has exhausted the potential opportunities in its 'traditional' postcodes? After all, attendances have been falling despite Valley Express, 'football for a fiver' and other locally-focused initiatives.
The bigger question in my view is whether moving to a more accessible location for a much wider potential support base may in time attract interest from non-traditional areas of support. I would imagine (although AB might confirm either way) that during the Premiership seasons, our support base will have been more diversely located than they were in say the dark League One days.
I assume from their sold-out crowds and previous tiny support base that Fulham for example have been particularly good at attracting fans from a wide variety of sources (including many tourists) simply by providing a friendly, fairly-priced and accessible place to watch Premiership football (despite the Cottage being a crappy stadium as noted above). If they had a modern 40,000 stadium in a good location, I'd imagine they'd fill that too for the same reasons.
Some on this thread have suggested we can't compete with the global brand of the likes of Arsenal, Spurs or Chelsea. This is absolutely true in the medium-term but we can compete on accessibility, ticket pricing and overall 'experience'. We have a well-earned reputation as a family club after all.
Agree with this when I made the earlier remark it was in relation to the corporate market.I know a lot of 'new' Addicks who have been priced out of Arsenal,Chelsea,Spurs and West Ham.
I think we will have moved by 2025 to the Greenwich Penisular. I think the Valley will be redeveloped with one block of 40 affordable flats and 5 with 40 executive apartments. I think the ground will be part owed by CAFCs new owners, the council and an entertainment company. I think there will be an agreesive marketing campaign which will see the 40,000 stadium sell 25,000 Season tickets along with a number of walk-ups enjoyng the benefits of their 'Greenwich Penisular Pass' giving cheap access to all events on the penisular.
Playing devil's advocate again. Let's say your favorite band re-formed after 10 years for a gig at the O2 and in the past you always saw them at Wembley, would you say "I'm not going because it's not at Wembley"?
I do see where people are coming from and my initial reaction to the suggestion of a move to the peninsular was that it would finish me going to games. But would it, or would I (and many others) get used to it over time and drift back? It is Charlton Athletic after all.
Hello mate. Trouble is your favourite band did reform, and at the O2, and like me, we did not get a look in did we.? Difference is millions applied for that gig, not too sure about the numbers at the CAFC gig. With or without a more comfy seat, and a prawn sandwich, in alleged comfy surroundings.
Football is an emotive, cultural, evocative sport, not a shopping experience. You could change all sorts of things, the club colours, the name, and move. I think they call that branding. As Martin Samuels talked yesterday on the Sunday supplement, To use his example, based on Coventry,call yourself addicks and you could play anywhere. Call yourself Charlton, and step outside SE7, and the issues get very abstract, or words similar. Why not move Manchester United to London, after all most of the fans come from around here?
Point is Ken, when Led Zep reformed and played the O2 I didn't call you up and say "Don't get me a ticket, I only want to see them at Wembley". :-)
Ebbsfleet in not the centre of our support by numbers. That's probably Eltham/Sidcup. Most supporters live inside the M25, where the population is considerably more dense (read into that what you will!). I'd no more assume people would travel out than in, and I don't advocate leaving London/Greenwich/SE7 for that reason alone, althoughat least in Kent there would probably be parking!
The Trust asked for the first two digits of the fans post code and you would be surprised at the distribution... I won't quote numbers off the top of my head but the significant answers were SE, DA, BR, TN and ME plus various codes in Kent, Essex and Surrey... we did this to feed supporter details back to branches if the fans stated they were interested. Exact mid point needs either the whole database or a way of eliminating bias but the most convenient* transport point by car would be near M25 / A2/ A20 as in minimum cumulative miles for all... by train it all depends.
NB I am not advocating any such move simply because the Valley does a job right now and there is potential there to expand IMHO
I really wouldn't be surprised. I've been analysing where our support - season tickets, ticket purchasers and others - lives for more than 20 years. The club database last year had 66k people on it, a rather bigger sample than any survey that could be carried out.
The biggest postcodes are DA and SE in that order, but much of DA is in the London Borough of Bexley. The others are significant, but these are 60 per cent.
Could one argue the club has exhausted the potential opportunities in its 'traditional' postcodes? After all, attendances have been falling despite Valley Express, 'football for a fiver' and other locally-focused initiatives.
The bigger question in my view is whether moving to a more accessible location for a much wider potential support base may in time attract interest from non-traditional areas of support. I would imagine (although AB might confirm either way) that during the Premiership seasons, our support base will have been more diversely located than they were in say the dark League One days.
I assume from their sold-out crowds and previous tiny support base that Fulham for example have been particularly good at attracting fans from a wide variety of sources (including many tourists) simply by providing a friendly, fairly-priced and accessible place to watch Premiership football (despite the Cottage being a crappy stadium as noted above). If they had a modern 40,000 stadium in a good location, I'd imagine they'd fill that too for the same reasons.
Some on this thread have suggested we can't compete with the global brand of the likes of Arsenal, Spurs or Chelsea. This is absolutely true in the medium-term but we can compete on accessibility, ticket pricing and overall 'experience'. We have a well-earned reputation as a family club after all.
I don't think the club has anywhere near exhausted the opportunities in the four adjacent SE London boroughs, given the population size, the opportunities to work with schools and the community operation. We barely scratched the surface of what could be done with the club development team as we didn't have the resource.
Remember we were often criticised for trying to attract non-CAFC fans who wanted to see Premier League football, even though that was a potential route to developing new support, but I do think geography assists Fulham and hampers Charlton in this regard.
Attendances have risen not fallen in the last two seasons, although last season's increase was mainly away supporters and I expect the average may fall this season. From 2008-11 we were mainly fighting a defensive battle against a poor offer on the pitch so in terms of numbers the initiatives were overwhelmed by the situation.
As for diversity of origins, the main thing I noted was that the more difficulty people faced getting to matches the more likely they were to drop off, which makes sense, e.g. you are less likely to make a two-hour journey for a League One match than you are to walk from your house, but in the PL the incentive will be sufficient to override the inconvenience.
Playing devil's advocate again. Let's say your favorite band re-formed after 10 years for a gig at the O2 and in the past you always saw them at Wembley, would you say "I'm not going because it's not at Wembley"?
I do see where people are coming from and my initial reaction to the suggestion of a move to the peninsular was that it would finish me going to games. But would it, or would I (and many others) get used to it over time and drift back? It is Charlton Athletic after all.
Hello mate. Trouble is your favourite band did reform, and at the O2, and like me, we did not get a look in did we.? Difference is millions applied for that gig, not too sure about the numbers at the CAFC gig. With or without a more comfy seat, and a prawn sandwich, in alleged comfy surroundings.
Football is an emotive, cultural, evocative sport, not a shopping experience. You could change all sorts of things, the club colours, the name, and move. I think they call that branding. As Martin Samuels talked yesterday on the Sunday supplement, To use his example, based on Coventry,call yourself addicks and you could play anywhere. Call yourself Charlton, and step outside SE7, and the issues get very abstract, or words similar. Why not move Manchester United to London, after all most of the fans come from around here?
Point is Ken, when Led Zep reformed and played the O2 I didn't call you up and say "Don't get me a ticket, I only want to see them at Wembley". :-)
Only played at the O2 mate, unless you wanted to go to the states? which neither of us went to......seemed to be full of rich foreigners and corporate type. The bottom line for me is that I do only want to see Charlton at the Valley, not in the car park at Macro's, or at the Peninsular. Just a personnal comment. Pity that CAFC can not invest in improving the stadium, and persuading Greenwich to sort out the infastructure as of present, not go into an aspirational dream world of park and ride, and a walkway of eating/drinking venues for what 20 games a year. As a business model this is unsustainable in my opinion where are the costings. Are the council going to subsidise a football stadium, and all the infastructure, and rent out eating venues with the 02 so close. Yet they cannot sort out the A2 every day of the week. I await to be convinced?
Playing devil's advocate again. Let's say your favorite band re-formed after 10 years for a gig at the O2 and in the past you always saw them at Wembley, would you say "I'm not going because it's not at Wembley"?
I do see where people are coming from and my initial reaction to the suggestion of a move to the peninsular was that it would finish me going to games. But would it, or would I (and many others) get used to it over time and drift back? It is Charlton Athletic after all.
Hello mate. Trouble is your favourite band did reform, and at the O2, and like me, we did not get a look in did we.? Difference is millions applied for that gig, not too sure about the numbers at the CAFC gig. With or without a more comfy seat, and a prawn sandwich, in alleged comfy surroundings.
Football is an emotive, cultural, evocative sport, not a shopping experience. You could change all sorts of things, the club colours, the name, and move. I think they call that branding. As Martin Samuels talked yesterday on the Sunday supplement, To use his example, based on Coventry,call yourself addicks and you could play anywhere. Call yourself Charlton, and step outside SE7, and the issues get very abstract, or words similar. Why not move Manchester United to London, after all most of the fans come from around here?
Point is Ken, when Led Zep reformed and played the O2 I didn't call you up and say "Don't get me a ticket, I only want to see them at Wembley". :-)
Only played at the O2 mate, unless you wanted to go to the states? which neither of us went to......seemed to be full of rich foreigners and corporate type. The bottom line for me is that I do only want to see Charlton at the Valley, not in the car park at Macro's, or at the Peninsular. Just a personnal comment. Pity that CAFC can not invest in improving the stadium, and persuading Greenwich to sort out the infastructure as of present, not go into an aspirational dream world of park and ride, and a walkway of eating/drinking venues for what 20 games a year. As a business model this is unsustainable in my opinion where are the costings. Are the council going to subsidise a football stadium, and all the infastructure, and rent out eating venues with the 02 so close. Yet they cannot sort out the A2 every day of the week. I await to be convinced?
20 games a year and I think you're right. Add to those 20 a further 20 rugby or NFL plus 10 concerts and were talking about a different animal.
The Greenwich Peninsula Masterplan site comprises 77 hectares of land. The consented Masterplan details the proposed creation of mixed use, residential and retail development around the O2 which is converted into a multi-events entertainment, sports and assemblies venue including a 26,000 capacity indoor arena. The residential element of the approved masterplan comprises up to10, 010 homes of which 38% would be affordable.
Every club in the Championship (and several in L1) can say
"In the PL we could sell over 30,000 tickets and make a fortune in corporate hospitality"
Unfortunatetely, only 20 clubs a can make it at a time, and realistically we will never be a permanent member of the PL, but rather one who will have a moment in the sun from time to time, but who will also have a moment in the brown stuff. Any ground development whether at The Valley or elsewhere need to take this into account, that plan from a few years ago for a 40,000 Valley, for example, seemed wildly optimistic to me at the time.
Playing devil's advocate again. Let's say your favorite band re-formed after 10 years for a gig at the O2 and in the past you always saw them at Wembley, would you say "I'm not going because it's not at Wembley"?
I do see where people are coming from and my initial reaction to the suggestion of a move to the peninsular was that it would finish me going to games. But would it, or would I (and many others) get used to it over time and drift back? It is Charlton Athletic after all.
Hello mate. Trouble is your favourite band did reform, and at the O2, and like me, we did not get a look in did we.? Difference is millions applied for that gig, not too sure about the numbers at the CAFC gig. With or without a more comfy seat, and a prawn sandwich, in alleged comfy surroundings.
Football is an emotive, cultural, evocative sport, not a shopping experience. You could change all sorts of things, the club colours, the name, and move. I think they call that branding. As Martin Samuels talked yesterday on the Sunday supplement, To use his example, based on Coventry,call yourself addicks and you could play anywhere. Call yourself Charlton, and step outside SE7, and the issues get very abstract, or words similar. Why not move Manchester United to London, after all most of the fans come from around here?
Point is Ken, when Led Zep reformed and played the O2 I didn't call you up and say "Don't get me a ticket, I only want to see them at Wembley". :-)
Only played at the O2 mate, unless you wanted to go to the states? which neither of us went to......seemed to be full of rich foreigners and corporate type. The bottom line for me is that I do only want to see Charlton at the Valley, not in the car park at Macro's, or at the Peninsular. Just a personnal comment. Pity that CAFC can not invest in improving the stadium, and persuading Greenwich to sort out the infastructure as of present, not go into an aspirational dream world of park and ride, and a walkway of eating/drinking venues for what 20 games a year. As a business model this is unsustainable in my opinion where are the costings. Are the council going to subsidise a football stadium, and all the infastructure, and rent out eating venues with the 02 so close. Yet they cannot sort out the A2 every day of the week. I await to be convinced?
20 games a year and I think you're right. Add to those 20 a further 20 rugby or NFL plus 10 concerts and were talking about a different animal.
yes agreed.. and all that has been done, at the Valley with the London Broncos, and various concerts. There was an issue with the pitch with the broncos, mind you there was an issue with the pitch last year? Holding concerts at the Valley, well no longer sure that is going to be possible, unless on a limited amount, as noise/disturbance will be an issue, Probably the Lansdowne mews people will object? ...... which is somewhat ironic if you have followed the plot in regard to that scenario. One of the issues for the short sighted sale of that bit of land again?
Playing devil's advocate again. Let's say your favorite band re-formed after 10 years for a gig at the O2 and in the past you always saw them at Wembley, would you say "I'm not going because it's not at Wembley"?
I do see where people are coming from and my initial reaction to the suggestion of a move to the peninsular was that it would finish me going to games. But would it, or would I (and many others) get used to it over time and drift back? It is Charlton Athletic after all.
Hello mate. Trouble is your favourite band did reform, and at the O2, and like me, we did not get a look in did we.? Difference is millions applied for that gig, not too sure about the numbers at the CAFC gig. With or without a more comfy seat, and a prawn sandwich, in alleged comfy surroundings.
Football is an emotive, cultural, evocative sport, not a shopping experience. You could change all sorts of things, the club colours, the name, and move. I think they call that branding. As Martin Samuels talked yesterday on the Sunday supplement, To use his example, based on Coventry,call yourself addicks and you could play anywhere. Call yourself Charlton, and step outside SE7, and the issues get very abstract, or words similar. Why not move Manchester United to London, after all most of the fans come from around here?
Point is Ken, when Led Zep reformed and played the O2 I didn't call you up and say "Don't get me a ticket, I only want to see them at Wembley". :-)
Only played at the O2 mate, unless you wanted to go to the states? which neither of us went to......seemed to be full of rich foreigners and corporate type. The bottom line for me is that I do only want to see Charlton at the Valley, not in the car park at Macro's, or at the Peninsular. Just a personnal comment. Pity that CAFC can not invest in improving the stadium, and persuading Greenwich to sort out the infastructure as of present, not go into an aspirational dream world of park and ride, and a walkway of eating/drinking venues for what 20 games a year. As a business model this is unsustainable in my opinion where are the costings. Are the council going to subsidise a football stadium, and all the infastructure, and rent out eating venues with the 02 so close. Yet they cannot sort out the A2 every day of the week. I await to be convinced?
20 games a year and I think you're right. Add to those 20 a further 20 rugby or NFL plus 10 concerts and were talking about a different animal.
yes agreed.. and all that has been done, at the Valley with the London Broncos, and various concerts. There was an issue with the pitch with the broncos, mind you there was an issue with the pitch last year? Holding concerts at the Valley, well no longer sure that is going to be possible, unless on a limited amount, as noise/disturbance will be an issue, Probably the Lansdowne mews people will object? ...... which is somewhat ironic if you have followed the plot in regard to that scenario. One of the issues for the short sighted sale of that bit of land again?
It failed at The Valley because of location and possibly timing. A home for a NFL team in London would be very lucrative at the Peninsula site.
Comments
It mainly worries me that the Valley is a decent stadium, most of those that were replaced were not, and I am suspicious therefore of the motivation to leave and build anew. The Murray board of 1999ish looked at moving, as scabbyhorse reminded us, and decided against it. The last time I spoke with Richard Murray about this, he still didn't seem to think we needed to leave from a business standpoint.
As you say good debate, and some of the pro reasons are well argued. What is missing now is somebody who knows what might be possible, to say what is possible to develop at The Valley, and whether that would be so expensive. Like I said earlier; filling in the corners, which would keep the sound in, but using those corners for corporate boxes and restaurants...I have no idea of course how feasible that is in building terms
However, I have read Prague's suggestion of filling in the corners to engender enhanced income from corporate boxes etc and wanted to comment on this.
Although I haven't used the JS Stand since we returned home and prior to the East being built, I'm assuming that a deal of work ( and expense) would be required to match the approach/surrounding area of that part of the ground to the standard of "posh boxes & restaurants". I'm picturing the requirement for a covered concourse of some description for the SE quadrant whilst I'm guessing that the SW could be accessed via Main Reception & extended corridors. And anyone that has been involved in bringing an older property up to date will know how easily one thing leads to another....and how the costs increase once work has begun.
The other point I wanted to highlight is the general state of the ground some 20+ years following our return. Whilst seat cleaning a few weeks ago, it was evident that at a time when staffing levels are being squeezed, "the old girl" is in need of some serious maintenance. It was noticeable that some steps in the Lower West are starting to crumble, that pigeon poo is an ongoing problem in some parts with the solution being prohibitively expensive and that although a lick of paint has smartened up certain areas ( thanks to volunteers like Tony Jordan) there is the need for some financial input to address the general wear & tear of the stadium IMHO. And we know only too well that is unlikely to happen in the current climate....
On reflection, what I'm saying is that if we want to increase income from the corporate side, then maybe the ground as a whole has to be taken into consideration which in itself would be an unwelcome expense. I'm in no way saying the The Valley is on her last legs but she IS looking tired & possibly in need of a facelift ( a bit like this Fan!) There's no point injecting botox in the corners if the remaining areas are sagging ....And then , of course, there is the danger of damage to upmarket cars from the notorious potholes !
Anyway, just my musings, guys 'n gals which invariably will be of scant importance in this interesting discussion . Sometimes you just have to get something off your chest....
Two sides to every story. When you rent you don't have to worry about the expense of painting you own hallway and a picture rail has been provided to hang pictures from. And just because you own your house you have to get planning permission to build and you can't just dig down in the ground and do something completely different.
You could say in a mortgage the bank owns your house but you pay the maintenence. When you rent the landlord owns it and the repair bill.
Also the deposit and other viewers is only relevant when you leave. I don't think a football stadium has ever been sold to another football club(?)
Cutting costs from renting the ground can be a good think when margins are so tight. I don't think you can rule it out just because its renting.
I'm not anti-board or pro-board because I don't know the details closely enough to have a view - consider me board-neutral. I'm sure when I get the latest VOTV some of the blanks will be filled in for me, however! Mark Kleinman used to be my neighbour too, so will be interested to read his VOTV comments, what with him being another of the few that I actually know.
Be interesting to see if Airman has ideas on the actuals and the potentials for corporate income at The Valley, he should be well placed to come up with something.
I'll leave it a bit and come back with some more pros to us moving!
The biggest postcodes are DA and SE in that order, but much of DA is in the London Borough of Bexley. The others are significant, but these are 60 per cent.
Sheff Weds used to play at Bramall Lane, not sure whether they owned it.
Everton left Anfield. Liverpool created (in part) to play on ground, so technically not a sale.
Torino moved into Juve's ground, they both moved out & now Torino are back in the ground without Juve. Not sure regarding ownership.
The bigger question in my view is whether moving to a more accessible location for a much wider potential support base may in time attract interest from non-traditional areas of support. I would imagine (although AB might confirm either way) that during the Premiership seasons, our support base will have been more diversely located than they were in say the dark League One days.
I assume from their sold-out crowds and previous tiny support base that Fulham for example have been particularly good at attracting fans from a wide variety of sources (including many tourists) simply by providing a friendly, fairly-priced and accessible place to watch Premiership football (despite the Cottage being a crappy stadium as noted above). If they had a modern 40,000 stadium in a good location, I'd imagine they'd fill that too for the same reasons.
Some on this thread have suggested we can't compete with the global brand of the likes of Arsenal, Spurs or Chelsea. This is absolutely true in the medium-term but we can compete on accessibility, ticket pricing and overall 'experience'. We have a well-earned reputation as a family club after all.
Also don't know enough about the zone thing to comment, altho wd be interested to know what zone the Valley is. Also suspect that would mean squat if big investment were coming in.
(Cory Gibbs, 3 years at CAFC, never played agame).
;-)
Agree with this when I made the earlier remark it was in relation to the corporate market.I know a lot of 'new' Addicks who have been priced out of Arsenal,Chelsea,Spurs and West Ham.
and i think you know more than you're letting on.
Remember we were often criticised for trying to attract non-CAFC fans who wanted to see Premier League football, even though that was a potential route to developing new support, but I do think geography assists Fulham and hampers Charlton in this regard.
Attendances have risen not fallen in the last two seasons, although last season's increase was mainly away supporters and I expect the average may fall this season. From 2008-11 we were mainly fighting a defensive battle against a poor offer on the pitch so in terms of numbers the initiatives were overwhelmed by the situation.
As for diversity of origins, the main thing I noted was that the more difficulty people faced getting to matches the more likely they were to drop off, which makes sense, e.g. you are less likely to make a two-hour journey for a League One match than you are to walk from your house, but in the PL the incentive will be sufficient to override the inconvenience.
The bottom line for me is that I do only want to see Charlton at the Valley, not in the car park at Macro's, or at the Peninsular.
Just a personnal comment. Pity that CAFC can not invest in improving the stadium, and persuading Greenwich to sort out the infastructure as of present, not go into an aspirational dream world of park and ride, and a walkway of eating/drinking venues for what 20 games a year. As a business model this is unsustainable in my opinion where are the costings.
Are the council going to subsidise a football stadium, and all the infastructure, and rent out eating venues with the 02 so close.
Yet they cannot sort out the A2 every day of the week. I await to be convinced?
http://853blog.com/2013/06/26/greenwich-peninsula-affordable-homes-cut-by-council/
consented Masterplan details the proposed creation of mixed use, residential
and retail development around the O2 which is converted into a multi-events
entertainment, sports and assemblies venue including a 26,000 capacity indoor
arena. The residential element of the approved masterplan comprises up
to10, 010 homes of which 38% would be affordable.
"In the PL we could sell over 30,000 tickets and make a fortune in corporate hospitality"
Unfortunatetely, only 20 clubs a can make it at a time, and realistically we will never be a permanent member of the PL, but rather one who will have a moment in the sun from time to time, but who will also have a moment in the brown stuff. Any ground development whether at The Valley or elsewhere need to take this into account, that plan from a few years ago for a 40,000 Valley, for example, seemed wildly optimistic to me at the time.
There was an issue with the pitch with the broncos, mind you there was an issue with the pitch last year?
Holding concerts at the Valley, well no longer sure that is going to be possible, unless on a limited amount, as noise/disturbance will be an issue,
Probably the Lansdowne mews people will object? ...... which is somewhat ironic if you have followed the plot in regard to that scenario.
One of the issues for the short sighted sale of that bit of land again?