Will no doubt get shot down for this, but were people so outraged by the current regime when we basically bought our way out of League One, brought in a club legend as manager, kept ticket and ST prices affordable, extended quality young players contracts and didnt sell to potential buyers that didnt have the clubs future at heart?
I can understand the concern but lets weigh up the pros and cons. Actions speak louder than words and so far, overall, the pros outweigh the cons.
NOT shooting you down. Yes there is a but..... Actions can indeed speak louder than words, and the club has been kept going, and enjoyed success. However the figures are out there for all to see and they are stark. We can't pay our way on our present income. Where is the money coming from? Are we stacking up huge loans against the club, and one day they are going to be called in and the walls come tumbling down? If the current regime are content to bankroll the club, give us free money in effect, then why? It certainly doesn't seem to be for the publicity. Or for the passion and involvement when a significant person goes to Chelsea v West Brom rather than Us v Leeds, doesn't strike me as a person with that much interest. Maybe there is a good reason, and yes it is essentially none of my business. So, weighing up the pro's and cons, on the surface it is pretty much all pros compared with the Parkinson era. I hope that the financing doesn't turn out to be a big con though. If the current regime are in a position to make a graceful exit, we say thank you and move on, more pro's than cons. If the exit is because the numbers really don't stack up, and we are b*ggered, then you have to ask yourself if the achievement has turned out to be any good at all.
All this talk (maybe untrue) of Tony Jimenez not being at the Valley on Saturday , and being at Stamford Bridge all makes sense now , he's setting up a deal to bring in a top class striker , step forward Romelu Lukaku.
All this talk (maybe untrue) of Tony Jimenez not being at the Valley on Saturday , and being at Stamford Bridge all makes sense now , he's setting up a deal to bring in a top class striker , step forward Romelu Lukaku.
More like he was trying to borrow more money from Chelsea players in order to pay off the ex-Chelsea players :-)
Will no doubt get shot down for this, but were people so outraged by the current regime when we basicallIy bought our way out of League One, brought in a club legend as manager, kept ticket and ST prices affordable, extended quality young players contracts and didnt sell to potential buyers that didnt have the clubs future at heart?
I can understand the concern but lets weigh up the pros and cons. Actions speak louder than words and so far, overall, the pros outweigh the cons.
Will no doubt get shot down for this, but were people so outraged by the current regime when we basically bought our way out of League One, brought in a club legend as manager, kept ticket and ST prices affordable, extended quality young players contracts and didnt sell to potential buyers that didnt have the clubs future at heart?
I can understand the concern but lets weigh up the pros and cons. Actions speak louder than words and so far, overall, the pros outweigh the cons.
Well said I am in total agreement.
But which one do you agree with, fossdeneboy ?
That at the moment the pros outweigh the cons, fanny my greatest fear is that if we do find a new owner they could turn out to have less funds than they say and would want to bring in their own new manager .
Will no doubt get shot down for this, but were people so outraged by the current regime when we basicallIy bought our way out of League One, brought in a club legend as manager, kept ticket and ST prices affordable, extended quality young players contracts and didnt sell to potential buyers that didnt have the clubs future at heart?
I can understand the concern but lets weigh up the pros and cons. Actions speak louder than words and so far, overall, the pros outweigh the cons.
Will no doubt get shot down for this, but were people so outraged by the current regime when we basically bought our way out of League One, brought in a club legend as manager, kept ticket and ST prices affordable, extended quality young players contracts and didnt sell to potential buyers that didnt have the clubs future at heart?
I can understand the concern but lets weigh up the pros and cons. Actions speak louder than words and so far, overall, the pros outweigh the cons.
Well said I am in total agreement.
But which one do you agree with, fossdeneboy ?
That at the moment the pros outweigh the cons, fanny my greatest fear is that if we do find a new owner they could turn out to have less funds than they say and would want to bring in their own new manager .
Do you mean replace Chris Powell, the manager that the current owners covet so much that they have just tried to nail down on a five year contract ? Oh hang on.
Will no doubt get shot down for this, but were people so outraged by the current regime when we basicallIy bought our way out of League One, brought in a club legend as manager, kept ticket and ST prices affordable, extended quality young players contracts and didnt sell to potential buyers that didnt have the clubs future at heart?
I can understand the concern but lets weigh up the pros and cons. Actions speak louder than words and so far, overall, the pros outweigh the cons.
Will no doubt get shot down for this, but were people so outraged by the current regime when we basically bought our way out of League One, brought in a club legend as manager, kept ticket and ST prices affordable, extended quality young players contracts and didnt sell to potential buyers that didnt have the clubs future at heart?
I can understand the concern but lets weigh up the pros and cons. Actions speak louder than words and so far, overall, the pros outweigh the cons.
Well said I am in total agreement.
But which one do you agree with, fossdeneboy ?
That at the moment the pros outweigh the cons, fanny my greatest fear is that if we do find a new owner they could turn out to have less funds than they say and would want to bring in their own new manager .
Do you mean replace Chris Powell, the manager that the current owners covet so much that they have just tried to nail down on a five year contract ? Oh hang on.
This what i mean, no concrete evidence that contract extension isnt in discussion or set for a certain date.
The FACTS we have, by whats gone on the last three seasons, they are well in credit.
"didnt sell to potential buyers that didnt have the clubs future at heart?" Where is your evidence for this?
As for Powell there is no concrete evidence that a contract extension IS being discussed either but we do know that CPs contract expires in the summer along with a number of senior players. Some of those players (Yann, Dervite, Morrison, Jackson) have said publically (Eltham Addicks) that they have not been in talks about new contracts.
I will say again that the owners were well in credit until March 2012 when Kevin Cash withdrew his funding. This is the key date.
"Speculation, lies, panic, doom mongering, shit stiring etc etc etc", call it what you will but at some point it went wrong and Cash stopped funding the project. And yes I do have a source for that and no I can't give it. Not asking anyone to believe me if they don't want to but all the events since then such as the lack of funding for the pitch as a small example and for the team as a big example point to this being the case.
Before then all was going well. Since then senior people who were a key part of the success have left (Varney and Kavanagh) and in unhappy circumstances with both taking cases out against the Club (Source Richard Murray at Bromley Addicks) , the pitch budget has been cut and Powell has not been allowed to buy the players he wants and needs. We haven't bought a player for a fee since then other than Button (delayed fee) and Wilson.
We are and that is thanks to the investment made prior to March 2012 which got us promoted and the good work by Powell.
Last season we finished 9th so last summer was optimum time to sell. A club on the rise, just outside the play-offs, players with a year left on their contracts which could be renewed if wanted or left to run down if not.
And TJ and MS realised this hence the sales brochure they produced in May 2013 (source Mark Kleinman of Sky's financial team) Just what you would do if you want to sell an asset so nothing wrong with that in itself but the brochure contained a lot of incorrect or at least misleading information (CAFC 4th best supported team in the division, new ground available on the peninsular)
But you can't stand still in football. The club wasn't sold despite rumours of interest by Pearrson and Koc (denied by Slater at the VIP Q & A who also said the Club wasn't for sale despite having produced a sales brochure months before) so the contract situation becomes worse including that for Powell. And if we finish bottom half (based on our current performance) we are less attractive to a buyer.
We are spending far less than we can under FFP (source David Joyes in the Millwall programme) and we are still looking for the funding for the new academy/Trust/First team building at Sparrows Lane (source Steve Bradshaw at Bromley Addicks) that was planned over two years ago (ie before Kevin Cash stopped funding the club) and which meant we didn't get the Cat 1 academy status we were aiming for (source Paul Hart at Bromley Addicks).
So not great in my view. Future uncertain and that ignores the Wise v Jimenez case and the wider ramifications of that ruling to our principal shareholder. I don't really care if TJ watches the team or not. He's an absentee land lord with businesses in Cyprus and France but so what? It's what he does for Charlton that matters. Just a shame he chooses not to tell us.
The positives are that TJ and MS are still funding the Club. It isn't the maximum that could put in under FFP rules but it is their money so they can put as much or a little in as the rules allow.
The unknown is where that funding sits. It has not been put in as equity(shares) so it would appear to be loans but we don't know on what terms. Slater said he is "transferring" in £1m a month (source Slater at the VIP Q & A) which suggest a £12m debt although I suspect it is closer to £7m a year which would be closer to the £8m a year losses ie £1m a month during the season.
What the board did before March 2012 when Cash pulled out was great and worthy of praise but we now have a significantly different board and significantly inferior investment policy which is, in my opinion, allowing the Club to slowly stagnate until new owners can be found. The big question is how long that search takes and how much damage is done in the meantime.
But if and when we get new owners we need to ask them the same questions I asked on here when the current board took over
Lots of people on here seem to like 'knocking' Henry - because his views are often a bit 'uncomfortable' and sometimes he comes across as a bit condescending - but the information he has neatly laid out here sums up the apparent mess we are in very well.
Just a question, but how can we talk new contracts/money, when we are flirting with relegation. The league in which we will be playing next year has to be a crucial part of any negotiation surely. Most of us feel strongly that we are good enough to stay up, but only a fool would risk further financial difficulty if we were wrong.
good point Grandpa. we can't negotiate Championship level wages and then find ourselves in League 1. However if we don't offer new contracts soon we might lose a couple of valued players for no fee next summer. it's catch 22 but the current mob only have themselves to blame.
It is a good post and I agree with the thrust of it. However my information (from a non-club source close to Slater) is that MS is not funding the club from his own money. When he "transfers" money, he is doing that for someone else. That is why, being a lawyer, his use of that verb can be seen as quite deliberate. My source confirms that Kevin Cash is a long-term client of Michael Slater. And that is why I am a bit wary of endorsing 100% an "analysis" that states as a bald fact that Cash pulled out definitively in March 2012. We should ask the questions, yes, but we should also make sure we have the answers before we go winding up the fan base without a clear reason, and most importantly without a plan for ensuring we get "better' owners in future.
Just a question, but how can we talk new contracts/money, when we are flirting with relegation. The league in which we will be playing next year has to be a crucial part of any negotiation surely. Most of us feel strongly that we are good enough to stay up, but only a fool would risk further financial difficulty if we were wrong.
We weren't with relegation in the summer when the key contracts could have been sorted.
Also we could be in more financial difficulty if we have to let Wiggins and Morrison go on free transfers when they are out of contract in the summer.
Lots of people on here seem to like 'knocking' Henry - because his views are often a bit 'uncomfortable' and sometimes he comes across as a bit condescending - but the information he has neatly laid out here sums up the apparent mess we are in very well.
"Condescending" is what people confuse with "being put right" : - )
Just a question, but how can we talk new contracts/money, when we are flirting with relegation. The league in which we will be playing next year has to be a crucial part of any negotiation surely. Most of us feel strongly that we are good enough to stay up, but only a fool would risk further financial difficulty if we were wrong.
We weren't with relegation in the summer when the key contracts could have been sorted.
Also we could be in more financial difficulty if we have to let Wiggins and Morrison go on free transfers when they are out of contract in the summer.
Yeah, but "peninsular" is an adjective. The noun is "peninsula". How can you take the bloke seriously when he can't get that right?
That is true. I even changed it from "Peninsula" as I couldn't remember which was correct.
If you extend the contracts of your top players, then its more than likely they will be getting a pay rise. That means a higher wage expenditure for a whole season, when you could have been paying them a lower amount up until they signed the new contract (say, in March for example)
If there money is that tight, then risks have to be taken.
Will no doubt get shot down for this, but were people so outraged by the current regime when we basically bought our way out of League One, brought in a club legend as manager, kept ticket and ST prices affordable, extended quality young players contracts and didnt sell to potential buyers that didnt have the clubs future at heart?
I can understand the concern but lets weigh up the pros and cons. Actions speak louder than words and so far, overall, the pros outweigh the cons.
On reading this, I think it's fair to say that some people have very short memories. It's a bit like a spoiled child wanting everything for and before Christmas. As someone said on here earlier 'beggars can't be choosers'.
And that is why I am a bit wary of endorsing 100% an "analysis" that states as a bald fact that Cash pulled out definitively in March 2012. We should ask the questions, yes, but we should also make sure we have the answers before we go winding up the fan base without a clear reason, and most importantly without a plan for ensuring we get "better' owners in future.
That makes no sense whatsover.
Firstly you weren't asked to endorse it. You can agree/disagree as you wish but neither you or anyone else was asked to give it an endorsement. I'm happy that some people liked it and felt it was a good piece but I'm not standing for election or asking for it to be including in a manifesto.
Secondly, I'm not sure where I am "winding up" the fan base. I gave my opinion, my reasoning and gave sources where possible. Perhaps leading the fan base up a dead end over leaving the Valley and FOI requests as you did was a better example of "winding up" the fan base especially as it was clear from the outset that no such plan existed but was only a misleading benefit of purchasing CAFC set out in the sales brochure.
Thirdly, why can we not question this board without a plan for "better" owners. We have little control over either as it stands but I am at least asking what I think are the pertinent questions to be asked if and when we do get new owners. Would anyone be unhappy about either the current or next board giving full and honest answers to those questions.
Influencing who the next owners are is a totally different thing.
Heard yet another rumour on Saturday about a Swedish businessman looking at us??? Appreciate these rumours are quite regular, just wondering if any of the more informed members of the forum had heard anything to this effect?
Just a question, but how can we talk new contracts/money, when we are flirting with relegation. The league in which we will be playing next year has to be a crucial part of any negotiation surely. Most of us feel strongly that we are good enough to stay up, but only a fool would risk further financial difficulty if we were wrong.
We weren't with relegation in the summer when the key contracts could have been sorted.
Also we could be in more financial difficulty if we have to let Wiggins and Morrison go on free transfers when they are out of contract in the summer.
Yeah, but "peninsular" is an adjective. The noun is "peninsula". How can you take the bloke seriously when he can't get that right?
That is true. I even changed it from "Peninsula" as I couldn't remember which was correct.
If you extend the contracts of your top players, then its more than likely they will be getting a pay rise. That means a higher wage expenditure for a whole season, when you could have been paying them a lower amount up until they signed the new contract (say, in March for example)
If there money is that tight, then risks have to be taken.
I agree but we have to accept that it is a risk that they walk away in May for no transfer fee and that in the meantime that they could be unsettled.
It also begs the question of why sign Solly and Cousins up to new deals rather than wait to March?
But as you say money is tight. It's not our money so people are quite right when they say it's up to TJ and MS what they spend. They have about £6m leeway under FFP rules if they wanted to spend more but it is up to them as to what level of investment or loans they make in the Club.
But that doesn't mean we as fans can't ask questions or, if we see it that way, be concerned with what we see.
Or be happy that the board are still in credit if that is your view. My question would be what do you see as the cons as well as the pros?
Comments
Yes there is a but.....
Actions can indeed speak louder than words, and the club has been kept going, and enjoyed success.
However the figures are out there for all to see and they are stark. We can't pay our way on our present income. Where is the money coming from? Are we stacking up huge loans against the club, and one day they are going to be called in and the walls come tumbling down?
If the current regime are content to bankroll the club, give us free money in effect, then why? It certainly doesn't seem to be for the publicity. Or for the passion and involvement when a significant person goes to Chelsea v West Brom rather than Us v Leeds, doesn't strike me as a person with that much interest. Maybe there is a good reason, and yes it is essentially none of my business.
So, weighing up the pro's and cons, on the surface it is pretty much all pros compared with the Parkinson era. I hope that the financing doesn't turn out to be a big con though. If the current regime are in a position to make a graceful exit, we say thank you and move on, more pro's than cons. If the exit is because the numbers really don't stack up, and we are b*ggered, then you have to ask yourself if the achievement has turned out to be any good at all.
The FACTS we have, by whats gone on the last three seasons, they are well in credit.
"didnt sell to potential buyers that didnt have the clubs future at heart?" Where is your evidence for this?
As for Powell there is no concrete evidence that a contract extension IS being discussed either but we do know that CPs contract expires in the summer along with a number of senior players. Some of those players (Yann, Dervite, Morrison, Jackson) have said publically (Eltham Addicks) that they have not been in talks about new contracts.
I will say again that the owners were well in credit until March 2012 when Kevin Cash withdrew his funding. This is the key date.
"Speculation, lies, panic, doom mongering, shit stiring etc etc etc", call it what you will but at some point it went wrong and Cash stopped funding the project. And yes I do have a source for that and no I can't give it. Not asking anyone to believe me if they don't want to but all the events since then such as the lack of funding for the pitch as a small example and for the team as a big example point to this being the case.
Before then all was going well. Since then senior people who were a key part of the success have left (Varney and Kavanagh) and in unhappy circumstances with both taking cases out against the Club (Source Richard Murray at Bromley Addicks) , the pitch budget has been cut and Powell has not been allowed to buy the players he wants and needs. We haven't bought a player for a fee since then other than Button (delayed fee) and Wilson.
Last season we finished 9th so last summer was optimum time to sell. A club on the rise, just outside the play-offs, players with a year left on their contracts which could be renewed if wanted or left to run down if not.
And TJ and MS realised this hence the sales brochure they produced in May 2013 (source Mark Kleinman of Sky's financial team) Just what you would do if you want to sell an asset so nothing wrong with that in itself but the brochure contained a lot of incorrect or at least misleading information (CAFC 4th best supported team in the division, new ground available on the peninsular)
But you can't stand still in football. The club wasn't sold despite rumours of interest by Pearrson and Koc (denied by Slater at the VIP Q & A who also said the Club wasn't for sale despite having produced a sales brochure months before) so the contract situation becomes worse including that for Powell. And if we finish bottom half (based on our current performance) we are less attractive to a buyer.
We are spending far less than we can under FFP (source David Joyes in the Millwall programme) and we are still looking for the funding for the new academy/Trust/First team building at Sparrows Lane (source Steve Bradshaw at Bromley Addicks) that was planned over two years ago (ie before Kevin Cash stopped funding the club) and which meant we didn't get the Cat 1 academy status we were aiming for (source Paul Hart at Bromley Addicks).
So not great in my view. Future uncertain and that ignores the Wise v Jimenez case and the wider ramifications of that ruling to our principal shareholder. I don't really care if TJ watches the team or not. He's an absentee land lord with businesses in Cyprus and France but so what? It's what he does for Charlton that matters. Just a shame he chooses not to tell us.
The positives are that TJ and MS are still funding the Club. It isn't the maximum that could put in under FFP rules but it is their money so they can put as much or a little in as the rules allow.
The unknown is where that funding sits. It has not been put in as equity(shares) so it would appear to be loans but we don't know on what terms. Slater said he is "transferring" in £1m a month (source Slater at the VIP Q & A) which suggest a £12m debt although I suspect it is closer to £7m a year which would be closer to the £8m a year losses ie £1m a month during the season.
What the board did before March 2012 when Cash pulled out was great and worthy of praise but we now have a significantly different board and significantly inferior investment policy which is, in my opinion, allowing the Club to slowly stagnate until new owners can be found. The big question is how long that search takes and how much damage is done in the meantime.
But if and when we get new owners we need to ask them the same questions I asked on here when the current board took over
1. Who owns the Club?
2. What is the business plan for the Club?
3. What are the investment levels in the Club?
4. What are the plans for the academy?
5. What are the plans for the Valley?
6. What is the exit plan?
We weren't with relegation in the summer when the key contracts could have been sorted.
Also we could be in more financial difficulty if we have to let Wiggins and Morrison go on free transfers when they are out of contract in the summer.
That is true. I even changed it from "Peninsula" as I couldn't remember which was correct.
If there money is that tight, then risks have to be taken.
Im fairly convinced the like of Morro, Wiggins and JJ will renew as long as we pay the going rate.
Firstly you weren't asked to endorse it. You can agree/disagree as you wish but neither you or anyone else was asked to give it an endorsement. I'm happy that some people liked it and felt it was a good piece but I'm not standing for election or asking for it to be including in a manifesto.
Secondly, I'm not sure where I am "winding up" the fan base. I gave my opinion, my reasoning and gave sources where possible. Perhaps leading the fan base up a dead end over leaving the Valley and FOI requests as you did was a better example of "winding up" the fan base especially as it was clear from the outset that no such plan existed but was only a misleading benefit of purchasing CAFC set out in the sales brochure.
Thirdly, why can we not question this board without a plan for "better" owners. We have little control over either as it stands but I am at least asking what I think are the pertinent questions to be asked if and when we do get new owners. Would anyone be unhappy about either the current or next board giving full and honest answers to those questions.
Influencing who the next owners are is a totally different thing.
I agree but we have to accept that it is a risk that they walk away in May for no transfer fee and that in the meantime that they could be unsettled.
It also begs the question of why sign Solly and Cousins up to new deals rather than wait to March?
But as you say money is tight. It's not our money so people are quite right when they say it's up to TJ and MS what they spend. They have about £6m leeway under FFP rules if they wanted to spend more but it is up to them as to what level of investment or loans they make in the Club.
But that doesn't mean we as fans can't ask questions or, if we see it that way, be concerned with what we see.
Or be happy that the board are still in credit if that is your view. My question would be what do you see as the cons as well as the pros?