Strange that they're happy to be ruled by Brussels but not Westminster... If that's all about feeling "oppressed" due to England conquering them hundreds of years ago, they need to get over it. They need to look at the world as it is now. I firmly believe we'll all be better off if Scotland remains in the UK, but being English, I don't get a vote...
Had a quiet wee chuckle the other day when Emperor Salmond was pontificating on R4 about North Sea Oil revenues and expounding on the billion of barrels supposedly off of the Shetlands and Orkney's yet to be scooped up by an Independent Scotland to pay for his socialist utopia. Am I very much mistaken in thinking that the islanders of Shetland and Orkney consider themselves to be other than Scottish? and may at some future date want independence themselves and with it THEIR oil? Wonder what the Edinburgh politburo will do about that little question?
@SE9 ADDICK I don't know the theory but just look at Ireland, Iceland and Spain. They all over traded. To be allowed to trade at all you need guarantees and you need a (vaguely) balanced budget. The chequebook credit card analogy is a vast oversimplification... Financial institutions trade instruments very much bigger than household budgets that you and I see. Despite all the banker bashing these instruments make the markets more efficient and lower the rates people and businesses have to pay. Scotland could not trade these without BoE (or Ecb) guarantees. Without these jobs and profits Scotland has no business case! But it's not black and white as we actually stepped in to support Ireland, perhaps because ulster bank (owned by RBS) is such a basket case and the cost of it falling over not good. So Scotland going alone will clarify things and crystallise this relationship...and inevitably Salmond will blame the English again! But this time he has to maintain a diplomatic relationship with his neighbour. As I say others know how this works but what is clear is that the numbers and risks involved are dramatic. Whichever way it goes we will muddle along as ever and the electorate will continue to be served with poor choices. I hope people use this as an opportunity to learn when Farrage is playing his own version of the same arguments next year..."We can have all the benefits just like Norway or Switzerland but we are not sharing the risks and the compromises to ensure a collective of nations work"
Our village did not vote for a Tory, does not support the bedroom tax, or tuition fees. We are already a nuclear free village and are willing to join Nato for protection by the mighty USA. Can we have a vote on independence too please? Oh, hang on, wait a minute, our village may not be able to balance the books if we don't pay as much in tax as we take out in benefits. But we could have a very large reservoir of shale gas under us, maybe. Tricky business this nationalism.
Just had two blokes on radio 2. A businessman who will relocate to England on a yes vote and a gentleman from the green party who will relocate to Scotland on a yes vote. An interesting swap.
Says something about the problems of paying for independence and the lack of a proper border, I think. If the weather was ok what you'd do is live in England whilst working and retire to Scotland for the freebies. But unfortunately the weather is sh#te.
Just had two blokes on radio 2. A businessman who will relocate to England on a yes vote and a gentleman from the green party who will relocate to Scotland on a yes vote. An interesting swap.
Says something about the problems of paying for independence and the lack of a proper border, I think. If the weather was ok what you'd do is live in England whilst working and retire to Scotland for the freebies. But unfortunately the weather is sh#te.
brilliant swap, get all the green loonies out of the country i say.
Just got tickets for the Scotland v England game at Celtic Park in November, I wonder if I will be needing my passport. Highly doubt it. There was always going to be a big hype around the vote a few weeks before and although it may seem Salmond is gaining some momentum from the recent polls, I question how accurate they really are. My prediction is a 57% no vote. God save the Queen and our fascist regime!
I just have the feeling when push comes to shove quite a few of the Scottish people still undecided will opt to say no because they will feel more worried about independant rather than not. Secondly a few who are saying they will say yes now will have last minute second thoughts and say no because they will also start to worry what could happen. And I reckon the same will happen if the whole UK gets a vote on the whether to stay in the EU or not.
When I worked for Fords, prior to voting for industrial action you would hear everyone and their uncle giving it the big un. Then the secret balot and suprise suprise we would vote to except the final offer on the table, with the same people saying they voted to reject the offer. Could be more of the same with Scots. They have vastly improved their lot to the point where they will be independant with a large saftey net to protect them. Part of me hopes the vote yes just so we can move a few jobs south but it wont happen. They're not stupid.
I'm part Scots but mostly English. I'm proud of my Scots heritage and have been known to wear the clan kilt (a man skirt to you Sassenachs). Despite all of this I consider myself English first and British second so whilst I've been and ardent hopeful that the Scots will vote no, I'm not prepared to accept that the outcome is a Union tilted in favour of one country over another. Given all the apparent ceding of Devo Max to the Scots and the lack of equality that will offer us, I'm now wondering whether Yes might be a better outcome, despite my Scots blood saying it would be worse for Scotland
There is so much to unravel, the two nations are so intertwined that even if there is a 'yes' vote next autumn, it will take years to sort out the pros and cons. Everything from nuclear weapons to road tax will need to be discussed. Whatever the outcome, I bet that England, rather the English taxpayer, will come out of this badly. Shame that Northern Ireland doesn't want 'freedom' from England. The subsidies paid to this damp outpost are huge.
Cameron should never have allowed the referendum. Even if it fails it has disturbed the hornet's nest and will create greater and ongoing racial hatred. The Union has evolved over 300 years and the Scots play a big part in its dynamics. Sadly, they are in for a hideous shock if they do get the yes vote because a trained baboon could predict the outcome of their economy after the event. Misguided idealism in the extreme by Salmond & cronies and Cameron will be remembered only for this debacle as Bush & Blair will be remembered for Iraq
But denying their right to vote on their future would have only stoked the feeling of being dictated to by Westminster further.
Devolution will continually be fine tuned to satisfy every sensitive Scottish thought. What would Salmond be settling for had there been no potential oil revenues? This is not about independence - they already have it in real terms - this is a cock stand for Salmond, trying to power his way into the history books
There is so much to unravel, the two nations are so intertwined that even if there is a 'yes' vote next autumn, it will take years to sort out the pros and cons. Everything from nuclear weapons to road tax will need to be discussed. Whatever the outcome, I bet that England, rather the English taxpayer, will come out of this badly. Shame that Northern Ireland doesn't want 'freedom' from England. The subsidies paid to this damp outpost are huge.
Cameron should never have allowed the referendum. Even if it fails it has disturbed the hornet's nest and will create greater and ongoing racial hatred. The Union has evolved over 300 years and the Scots play a big part in its dynamics. Sadly, they are in for a hideous shock if they do get the yes vote because a trained baboon could predict the outcome of their economy after the event. Misguided idealism in the extreme by Salmond & cronies and Cameron will be remembered only for this debacle as Bush & Blair will be remembered for Iraq
But denying their right to vote on their future would have only stoked the feeling of being dictated to by Westminster further.
Devolution will continually be fine tuned to satisfy every sensitive Scottish thought. What would Salmond be settling for had there been no potential oil revenues? This is not about independence - they already have it in real terms - this is a cock stand for Salmond, trying to power his way into the history books
So why don't the English stop moaning and start demanding representation ? A federal UK is the only way to keep everyone happy.
Ugh, every time I turn on the news and it's about the referendum, I am amazed by the stupidity of the logic of Yes voters:
"We haven't had the Government we voted for for 30 years."
What. In 1997, 2001 and 2005, Labour came top in Scotland. Also, in between 1979 and 1992, the Conservatives managed to maintain a healthy proportion of the vote. If you're in a union and north of the border one side marginally wins and south of the border the opposition side win by a landslide, then the opposition side is the obvious winner. If I vote Tory and my two neighbours vote Labour, then Labour gets in, I can't really complain since that's how democracy works.
"I'm voting Yes because I'll get more dole money in an independent Scotland."
Where does dole money come from? Taxes. Who'll be paying these higher taxes so you get your dole money? No one, apparently, since more or less every major business has said they will leave Scotland if they vote Yes, and their higher rate taxpayers will likely relocate if a more friendly tax regime exists in England. More or less every expert opinion suggests that Scotland will, initially at least, face massive job losses, economic uncertainty and low foreign investment if they go it alone. So with less money coming in and more people in the unemployment queue, where exactly is the extra money coming from? I know people talk about a magical money tree but talking to some people who don't understand how the welfare system is funded, you'd think they actually believe there is one.
There is so much to unravel, the two nations are so intertwined that even if there is a 'yes' vote next autumn, it will take years to sort out the pros and cons. Everything from nuclear weapons to road tax will need to be discussed. Whatever the outcome, I bet that England, rather the English taxpayer, will come out of this badly. Shame that Northern Ireland doesn't want 'freedom' from England. The subsidies paid to this damp outpost are huge.
Cameron should never have allowed the referendum. Even if it fails it has disturbed the hornet's nest and will create greater and ongoing racial hatred. The Union has evolved over 300 years and the Scots play a big part in its dynamics. Sadly, they are in for a hideous shock if they do get the yes vote because a trained baboon could predict the outcome of their economy after the event. Misguided idealism in the extreme by Salmond & cronies and Cameron will be remembered only for this debacle as Bush & Blair will be remembered for Iraq
But denying their right to vote on their future would have only stoked the feeling of being dictated to by Westminster further.
Devolution will continually be fine tuned to satisfy every sensitive Scottish thought. What would Salmond be settling for had there been no potential oil revenues? This is not about independence - they already have it in real terms - this is a cock stand for Salmond, trying to power his way into the history books
So why don't the English stop moaning and start demanding representation ? A federal UK is the only way to keep everyone happy.
A very good question. Maybe some apathy behind it but in reality, Joe Public probably took it as a bit of a joke initially. Political correctness probably also partly to blame? Most importantly, who do we have as a populous in between us and Government to actually represent us? Our local MP, maybe, but this is a national issue and the facility to drive that, I would suggest, is simply not available in our current political set up.
Fiish, you are preaching to the converted. I can actually see Salmond looking to Brussels to balance their accounts and stimulate investment - beware all EU representatives - it's coming - assuming they do get to stay in the EU.
Have the EU (anyone with real power and not just opinion) stated where Scotland stand if they vote yes? Will they just slide in and no one say yep or nope?
Have the EU (anyone with real power and not just opinion) stated where Scotland stand if they vote yes? Will they just slide in and no one say yep or nope?
I would not be at all surprised if it's already a done deal - sorted out well before the final curtain
Have the EU (anyone with real power and not just opinion) stated where Scotland stand if they vote yes? Will they just slide in and no one say yep or nope?
I would not be at all surprised if it's already a done deal - sorted out well before the final curtain
What do the Tories stand to gain by the departure from the electoral franchise of 5 million Scots?
There is so much to unravel, the two nations are so intertwined that even if there is a 'yes' vote next autumn, it will take years to sort out the pros and cons. Everything from nuclear weapons to road tax will need to be discussed. Whatever the outcome, I bet that England, rather the English taxpayer, will come out of this badly. Shame that Northern Ireland doesn't want 'freedom' from England. The subsidies paid to this damp outpost are huge.
Cameron should never have allowed the referendum. Even if it fails it has disturbed the hornet's nest and will create greater and ongoing racial hatred. The Union has evolved over 300 years and the Scots play a big part in its dynamics. Sadly, they are in for a hideous shock if they do get the yes vote because a trained baboon could predict the outcome of their economy after the event. Misguided idealism in the extreme by Salmond & cronies and Cameron will be remembered only for this debacle as Bush & Blair will be remembered for Iraq
But denying their right to vote on their future would have only stoked the feeling of being dictated to by Westminster further.
Devolution will continually be fine tuned to satisfy every sensitive Scottish thought. What would Salmond be settling for had there been no potential oil revenues? This is not about independence - they already have it in real terms - this is a cock stand for Salmond, trying to power his way into the history books
So why don't the English stop moaning and start demanding representation ? A federal UK is the only way to keep everyone happy.
A very good question. Maybe some apathy behind it but in reality, Joe Public probably took it as a bit of a joke initially. Political correctness probably also partly to blame? Most importantly, who do we have as a populous in between us and Government to actually represent us? Our local MP, maybe, but this is a national issue and the facility to drive that, I would suggest, is simply not available in our current political set up.
"Apathy"..."political correctness". How disappointing, I honestly think a lot of the anti-Scotland comments (I include the "Scotland will bankrupt itself within moments of independence" comments in that) are because English people are jealous that they've never been given the option of determining their own future in the same way that the Scottish have. Regardless of what happens on Thursday Scots will have had their say, when will the English ?
In the last couple of days the three main party leaders in Westminster have made a devolution pledge to Scotland should they vote No, with the Yes side claiming it is insulting to offer this at such a late stage.
And the thing is, it is pretty late in the day, considering people would have started postal voting weeks ago.
Although it can be reasonably assumed that most postal votes sent would have been No votes anyway as they would have been pre-filled by UK Labour Party activists on behalf of the owners of those postal votes.
There is so much to unravel, the two nations are so intertwined that even if there is a 'yes' vote next autumn, it will take years to sort out the pros and cons. Everything from nuclear weapons to road tax will need to be discussed. Whatever the outcome, I bet that England, rather the English taxpayer, will come out of this badly. Shame that Northern Ireland doesn't want 'freedom' from England. The subsidies paid to this damp outpost are huge.
Cameron should never have allowed the referendum. Even if it fails it has disturbed the hornet's nest and will create greater and ongoing racial hatred. The Union has evolved over 300 years and the Scots play a big part in its dynamics. Sadly, they are in for a hideous shock if they do get the yes vote because a trained baboon could predict the outcome of their economy after the event. Misguided idealism in the extreme by Salmond & cronies and Cameron will be remembered only for this debacle as Bush & Blair will be remembered for Iraq
But denying their right to vote on their future would have only stoked the feeling of being dictated to by Westminster further.
Devolution will continually be fine tuned to satisfy every sensitive Scottish thought. What would Salmond be settling for had there been no potential oil revenues? This is not about independence - they already have it in real terms - this is a cock stand for Salmond, trying to power his way into the history books
So why don't the English stop moaning and start demanding representation ? A federal UK is the only way to keep everyone happy.
A very good question. Maybe some apathy behind it but in reality, Joe Public probably took it as a bit of a joke initially. Political correctness probably also partly to blame? Most importantly, who do we have as a populous in between us and Government to actually represent us? Our local MP, maybe, but this is a national issue and the facility to drive that, I would suggest, is simply not available in our current political set up.
"Apathy"..."political correctness". How disappointing, I honestly think a lot of the anti-Scotland comments (I include the "Scotland will bankrupt itself within moments of independence" comments in that) are because English people are jealous that they've never been given the option of determining their own future in the same way that the Scottish have. Regardless of what happens on Thursday Scots will have had their say, when will the English ?
Very pleased for the Scots in having their say.
We have our say in local & national elections and those are usually enough to allow democracy to be maintained.
In the case of this referendum - there is a lot more to this than meets the eye and I commented earlier, the Tories have a lot to gain by giving Scotland its electoral freedom.
Comments
I don't know the theory but just look at Ireland, Iceland and Spain. They all over traded. To be allowed to trade at all you need guarantees and you need a (vaguely) balanced budget. The chequebook credit card analogy is a vast oversimplification... Financial institutions trade instruments very much bigger than household budgets that you and I see. Despite all the banker bashing these instruments make the markets more efficient and lower the rates people and businesses have to pay.
Scotland could not trade these without BoE (or Ecb) guarantees. Without these jobs and profits Scotland has no business case!
But it's not black and white as we actually stepped in to support Ireland, perhaps because ulster bank (owned by RBS) is such a basket case and the cost of it falling over not good.
So Scotland going alone will clarify things and crystallise this relationship...and inevitably Salmond will blame the English again! But this time he has to maintain a diplomatic relationship with his neighbour.
As I say others know how this works but what is clear is that the numbers and risks involved are dramatic.
Whichever way it goes we will muddle along as ever and the electorate will continue to be served with poor choices.
I hope people use this as an opportunity to learn when Farrage is playing his own version of the same arguments next year..."We can have all the benefits just like Norway or Switzerland but we are not sharing the risks and the compromises to ensure a collective of nations work"
Says something about the problems of paying for independence and the lack of a proper border, I think. If the weather was ok what you'd do is live in England whilst working and retire to Scotland for the freebies. But unfortunately the weather is sh#te.
Edited to say I've just read the plot of that movie on Wiki and you could really imagine some of that stuff happening!
Could be more of the same with Scots. They have vastly improved their lot to the point where they will be independant with a large saftey net to protect them.
Part of me hopes the vote yes just so we can move a few jobs south but it wont happen. They're not stupid.
Despite all of this I consider myself English first and British second so whilst I've been and ardent hopeful that the Scots will vote no, I'm not prepared to accept that the outcome is a Union tilted in favour of one country over another.
Given all the apparent ceding of Devo Max to the Scots and the lack of equality that will offer us, I'm now wondering whether Yes might be a better outcome, despite my Scots blood saying it would be worse for Scotland
What would Salmond be settling for had there been no potential oil revenues?
This is not about independence - they already have it in real terms - this is a cock stand for Salmond, trying to power his way into the history books
"We haven't had the Government we voted for for 30 years."
What. In 1997, 2001 and 2005, Labour came top in Scotland. Also, in between 1979 and 1992, the Conservatives managed to maintain a healthy proportion of the vote. If you're in a union and north of the border one side marginally wins and south of the border the opposition side win by a landslide, then the opposition side is the obvious winner. If I vote Tory and my two neighbours vote Labour, then Labour gets in, I can't really complain since that's how democracy works.
"I'm voting Yes because I'll get more dole money in an independent Scotland."
Where does dole money come from? Taxes. Who'll be paying these higher taxes so you get your dole money? No one, apparently, since more or less every major business has said they will leave Scotland if they vote Yes, and their higher rate taxpayers will likely relocate if a more friendly tax regime exists in England. More or less every expert opinion suggests that Scotland will, initially at least, face massive job losses, economic uncertainty and low foreign investment if they go it alone. So with less money coming in and more people in the unemployment queue, where exactly is the extra money coming from? I know people talk about a magical money tree but talking to some people who don't understand how the welfare system is funded, you'd think they actually believe there is one.
Maybe some apathy behind it but in reality, Joe Public probably took it as a bit of a joke initially.
Political correctness probably also partly to blame?
Most importantly, who do we have as a populous in between us and Government to actually represent us? Our local MP, maybe, but this is a national issue and the facility to drive that, I would suggest, is simply not available in our current political set up.
I can actually see Salmond looking to Brussels to balance their accounts and stimulate investment - beware all EU representatives - it's coming - assuming they do get to stay in the EU.
And the thing is, it is pretty late in the day, considering people would have started postal voting weeks ago.
Although it can be reasonably assumed that most postal votes sent would have been No votes anyway as they would have been pre-filled by UK Labour Party activists on behalf of the owners of those postal votes.
We have our say in local & national elections and those are usually enough to allow democracy to be maintained.
In the case of this referendum - there is a lot more to this than meets the eye and I commented earlier, the Tories have a lot to gain by giving Scotland its electoral freedom.