I'm also aware if the difference between a fan and a supporter.
Let's concentrate on how Seth throws accusations around at people for being racist because I am staunchly against the tactics and ideas of our manager. To suggest I'm a racist is pathetic. I'm sorry I'm not within the CL clique and dare to offer a different opinion
Well Seth certainly doesn't share my opinion that's for sure - I think it's a wide ranging generalisation with very little base and a bit of a silly thing to say.
I'm really glad people have different opinions and I think the debate has been a lot more measured and less angry than I was expecting. The clique as well - whatever that is in real life - also falls on both sides of the argument.
there is a certain section of our 'support' who take a perverse pleasure in having something about the club to slag off. For as long as I can remember (and I've been following Charlton for 35 years) we've had more than our share of absolute f***ing bellends following us - why would the Internet site be any different to (ahem) 'real life'?
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Can't agree more. In my 25 years of following, we've always had *more* of our fair share of knobs, and a misguided sense of entitlement. Even *before* we reached the Prem. Any neutrals/fans of other clubs that come along can't get over how tense and poisonous it can be at The Valley in the home end.
I do think the North Upper being built (and subsequent lack of noise/atmosphere), and dire recent history plays some part, of course. But I agree with Leroy's point. Always been this way, sadly.
I think some people are getting the comments aimed at CP's managerial ability confused as abuse to him personally.
I've been very much 100% CP but he's beginning to wear me down with his decision making and tactics.
He is a top top bloke, but he can be criticised and should be able to be criticised without people accusing other fans as being abusive.
Personally not sure what I want at the moment.
Ok but when some a poster says a decent guy like Powell is 'dog shit' it is abusive plain and simple. It should be no surprise that I would want to react to that.
I suggest if people have a problem with Seth's post (and I do) message him directly because we should not be distracted by the main debate here which is the future of our club.
Anyone enjoying this season isn't a Charlton supporter.
There is a fierce pro powell brigade who I feel are far more irrational than the anti powell posters. I don't accept that there isn't anyone better out there and we shouldn't even try to find someone.
If we had the same squad with the same results but Warnock in charge there would be only one thread in which we would all agree on and that would be ' Warnock Out'.
Never liked the way Powell sets up his teams and ive said on many occasions since he became manger and taken a few pelters for it ( I can handle it ) but to suggest there is a racial undertone to it is quite frankly ridiculous. Even during the league one winning season I thought our tactics where turgid but I just comment what I see in front of me at the valley because I go to GAMES pay my money and feel im entitled to have a say.
Is the Elephant in the room, the hidden agenda, an underlying racism? Nobody would say anything out loud of course, but the lack of reasoned argument from many, and the bile (dog shit), are not in proportion to the issues. I know we are struggling and all that, and many reasonable posters construct a case about lack of points and tactics and so on. Those points can be engaged with, they are worth debating. However a bald statement such as Powell can go because he is 'dog shit' has no reason, no class, nothing but hatred, not a million miles from the unreasoned hatred of the racists. It may well be a tiny minority, a vocal tiny minority, but it is simply nasty. I take comfort in the fact that whenever there has been anything like a survey on here, the fans are overwhelmingly in support of Chris Powell, and for many that means even unto relegation. I admit to posting a lot about Chris Powell, and have been called his 'dad', but if the bile merchants run free and are never challenged, then we would have a cowardly message board in my view.
Dog shit = my opinion of the service I am receiving as a paying customer.
Calling someone a racist you don't know and have never met because you want to misinterpret something they have said about the quality of a product means YOU are the "bile merchant"
Oh right I see.
isawalonsoplay is the person who describes Chris Powell as 'dog shit'. Not the service, but the man.
I challenge it, and I don't say directly YOU are racist, but I associate the unreasoned abuse with the unreasoned abuse of racism. partly in an attempt to find out why it is so nasty.
And I am the 'bile merchant'?
You are wrong, especially if you think my challenging you is stirring up the bad stuff. What do you expect me to do, say 'yeah yeah, isawalonsoplay says Chris Powell is dog shit and therefore it must be right and I ought to accept it'?
This was your post:
Reason 101 - Powell is dog shit Reason 102 - Powell is tactically inept Reason 103 - Powell has no clue Reason 104 - Ianbse9 has said it from the first day he was given the job.
Question the manager, question him in not the most eloquent way (don't forget football can be pretty emotive) and all of sudden the stick Powell is getting is racially motivated?
I think some people are getting the comments aimed at CP's managerial ability confused as abuse to him personally.
I've been very much 100% CP but he's beginning to wear me down with his decision making and tactics.
He is a top top bloke, but he can be criticised and should be able to be criticised without people accusing other fans as being abusive.
Personally not sure what I want at the moment.
Ok but when some a poster says a decent guy like Powell is 'dog shit' it is abusive plain and simple. It should be no surprise that I would want to react to that.
It's more to do with people's limited vocabulary and lack of respect. It's a sign of the times unfortunately, but nothing to do with racism. Players or managers are no longer lacking in ability or tactically unaware, they are either "shite, dog shit, wank" etc etc. Lisbie, Simon Francis, Alan McCormack and numerous other have been subjected to similar abuse and it doesn't matter whether they are black, white or sky blue pink.
'Is the Elephant in the room, the hidden agenda, an underlying racism? Nobody would say anything out loud of course, but the lack of reasoned argument from many, and the bile (dog shit), are not in proportion to the issues. I know we are struggling and all that, and many reasonable posters construct a case about lack of points and tactics and so on. Those points can be engaged with, they are worth debating. However a bald statement such as Powell can go because he is 'dog shit' has no reason, no class, nothing but hatred, not a million miles from the unreasoned hatred of the racists.'
The first part is a question. The next bit is about reasoned argument verses nastiness. No individual at all has been accused of being a racist, show me where it does that?
WSS says it was a 'silly' post, as did AFKA kind of earlier, and I responded straight away. Although I believe there are problems that we ought to face up to (no I don't mean the immediate footballing problems), maybe I chose the wrong time and the wrong place.
It is a touchy and sensitive subject, I probably shouldn't have raised it, but if I have invalidated all of my points with that post I suppose I will have to live with it
2nd away game of the season yesterday. Maybe could be seen anti Powell, if we were to go down wouldnt blame Chris thought from start of season we would struggle. Brilliant support didnt realise we had that many going up there. Even me being anti Powell i join in nearly every week with chrissy powells red and white army which after yesterday now comes with a little twist. Are some posters suggesting that i spend all saturday and a few quid going to wigan to watch us enjoy watching OUR team lose so Chris gets the sack. Why is Chris so scared of losing matches? Apart from losing another great day out met and said hello to a few lifers, few laughs at the game one being the biggest cheer when thuram caught the ball. Another being me saying to a mate "imagine if football was golden goal" travelled all the way to wigan watched 3 minutes of football and happy that were going home after 3 minutes. the fun and laughter and watching our team to me is what football is all about. oh and the beer
I don't understand why there're more and more people blaming it all on CP?The contract issue,the pitch problem,the take-over deal,the loss of key players in the January window,the task of assembling a team of remaining players and newcomers that almost no-one's heard of.And people assume it's easy?We're where we're now for reasons but venting anger on Powell at the moment seems pretty lame.The next few months is crucial.The worst case scenario is we get relegated and CP gets fired.If people keep slagging off CP and the team,it'll simply do no good and we'll get there (the worst case scenario) anyway.So why not stick together and get behind the team - it won't 100% guarantee a good outcome but at least it won't make things worse?
I think some people are getting the comments aimed at CP's managerial ability confused as abuse to him personally.
I've been very much 100% CP but he's beginning to wear me down with his decision making and tactics.
He is a top top bloke, but he can be criticised and should be able to be criticised without people accusing other fans as being abusive.
Personally not sure what I want at the moment.
Ok but when some a poster says a decent guy like Powell is 'dog shit' it is abusive plain and simple. It should be no surprise that I would want to react to that.
But it is a surprise that you should tar people as racists. As someone who for much of my 57 years has been on the receiving end of overt, subtle and institutional racism and even though your comments were not aimed at me, they are deeply offensive. If you want to make such accusations name names and produce evidence.
There is no racism here at all and I'm amazed and shocked that it was suggested at all. Powell is liked immensely by Charlton fans and a wide range of fans at that. Any criticism of him is at him the manager alone. As for the comments about Charlton Loyal, there is post about Powell on there and I re-post it here….not what you'd expect or hoped for?
I know that Powell and dyer are booked for one of the fans meetings, would it be possible for someone to let Powell know about our concerns with his substitutions? (If he is still the manager)
I think some people are getting the comments aimed at CP's managerial ability confused as abuse to him personally.
I've been very much 100% CP but he's beginning to wear me down with his decision making and tactics.
He is a top top bloke, but he can be criticised and should be able to be criticised without people accusing other fans as being abusive.
Personally not sure what I want at the moment.
Ok but when some a poster says a decent guy like Powell is 'dog shit' it is abusive plain and simple. It should be no surprise that I would want to react to that.
But it is a surprise that you should tar people as racists. As someone who for much of my 57 years has been on the receiving end of overt, subtle and institutional racism and even though your comments were not aimed at me, they are deeply offensive. If you want to make such accusations name names and produce evidence.
Three people have flagged my post (not quite sure what that means because it is the first time it has happened) eight people have liked it, and one is a LOL.
Read my post again, I have NOT accused anybody of racism. I raised a question granted, and associated some of the unreasoned abuse of Chris Powell as akin to the unreasoned abuse inherent within racism.
If what I wrote is such a diabolical post then so be it. I have not singled out any individual, not isawalonsoplay or you or anybody as racists, and I am content with that.
Hi Seth.Happy New Year to you and your family!Hope you all have a wonderful time! I haven't been around much lately and it seems the forum has turned into a chaotic place...
To say there is a racial undertone to all this was a bit of a silly thing to say. Giving bullets to a bunch of gun toting dimwits is never a good idea.
I think some people are getting the comments aimed at CP's managerial ability confused as abuse to him personally.
I've been very much 100% CP but he's beginning to wear me down with his decision making and tactics.
He is a top top bloke, but he can be criticised and should be able to be criticised without people accusing other fans as being abusive.
Personally not sure what I want at the moment.
Ok but when some a poster says a decent guy like Powell is 'dog shit' it is abusive plain and simple. It should be no surprise that I would want to react to that.
But it is a surprise that you should tar people as racists. As someone who for much of my 57 years has been on the receiving end of overt, subtle and institutional racism and even though your comments were not aimed at me, they are deeply offensive. If you want to make such accusations name names and produce evidence.
Three people have flagged my post (not quite sure what that means because it is the first time it has happened) eight people have liked it, and one is a LOL.
Read my post again, I have NOT accused anybody of racism. I raised a question granted, and associated some of the unreasoned abuse of Chris Powell as akin to the unreasoned abuse inherent within racism.
If what I wrote is such a diabolical post then so be it. I have not singled out any individual, not isawalonsoplay or you or anybody as racists, and I am content with that.
Implication and generalisation covers your back. Equally one could say that the anti towards having Avram Grant is due to anti semitism, there is no truth in that and its absolute bollocks as is raising race in relation to Powell.
I think some people are getting the comments aimed at CP's managerial ability confused as abuse to him personally.
I've been very much 100% CP but he's beginning to wear me down with his decision making and tactics.
He is a top top bloke, but he can be criticised and should be able to be criticised without people accusing other fans as being abusive.
Personally not sure what I want at the moment.
Ok but when some a poster says a decent guy like Powell is 'dog shit' it is abusive plain and simple. It should be no surprise that I would want to react to that.
But it is a surprise that you should tar people as racists. As someone who for much of my 57 years has been on the receiving end of overt, subtle and institutional racism and even though your comments were not aimed at me, they are deeply offensive. If you want to make such accusations name names and produce evidence.
Three people have flagged my post (not quite sure what that means because it is the first time it has happened) eight people have liked it, and one is a LOL.
Read my post again, I have NOT accused anybody of racism. I raised a question granted, and associated some of the unreasoned abuse of Chris Powell as akin to the unreasoned abuse inherent within racism.
If what I wrote is such a diabolical post then so be it. I have not singled out any individual, not isawalonsoplay or you or anybody as racists, and I am content with that.
Implication and generalisation covers your back. Equally one could say that the anti towards having Avram Grant is due to anti semitism, there is no truth in that and its absolute bollocks as is raising race in relation to Powell.
If you say it is 'absolute bollocks' you must be right.
I am not going to defend myself, mainly because I am not particularly being attacked, and who the hell am I anyway, not some main player on Charlton Life, but as TS Eliot would say 'am an attendant Lord who will do, to start a progress, swell a scene or two'?
I have expressed the degree of my regret for stirring up trouble, I have particularised sufficient points and I am satisfied that I have done the best I can do.
I think a lot of you are being unfair to Seth, it was me that bought up racism first in a fashion when I mentioned Charlton loyal, and no one can dispute the racism on there and since some on here are also posters on that forum and these posters often post on their dislike of Powell it is not surprising that Seth raised the question, there are probably some hopefully a very small minority that have racist reasons for not liking Powell, no fingers were pointed at any person in particular, it is unfair to have a go at him for having the guts to ask a question a lot of us were probably thinking already. However as I said before there is no need for a racial debate because 99% of people on here are not that way inclined.
Comments
I'm really glad people have different opinions and I think the debate has been a lot more measured and less angry than I was expecting. The clique as well - whatever that is in real life - also falls on both sides of the argument.
I do think the North Upper being built (and subsequent lack of noise/atmosphere), and dire recent history plays some part, of course. But I agree with Leroy's point. Always been this way, sadly.
It should be no surprise that I would want to react to that.
Let's talk about Charlton please.
Even during the league one winning season I thought our tactics where turgid but I just comment what I see in front of me at the valley because I go to GAMES pay my money and feel im entitled to have a say.
isawalonsoplay is the person who describes Chris Powell as 'dog shit'. Not the service, but the man.
I challenge it, and I don't say directly YOU are racist, but I associate the unreasoned abuse with the unreasoned abuse of racism. partly in an attempt to find out why it is so nasty.
And I am the 'bile merchant'?
You are wrong, especially if you think my challenging you is stirring up the bad stuff. What do you expect me to do, say 'yeah yeah, isawalonsoplay says Chris Powell is dog shit and therefore it must be right and I ought to accept it'?
This was your post:
Reason 101 - Powell is dog shit
Reason 102 - Powell is tactically inept
Reason 103 - Powell has no clue
Reason 104 - Ianbse9 has said it from the first day he was given the job.
Question the manager, question him in not the most eloquent way (don't forget football can be pretty emotive) and all of sudden the stick Powell is getting is racially motivated?
Unbelievable.
'Is the Elephant in the room, the hidden agenda, an underlying racism?
Nobody would say anything out loud of course, but the lack of reasoned argument from many, and the bile (dog shit), are not in proportion to the issues.
I know we are struggling and all that, and many reasonable posters construct a case about lack of points and tactics and so on. Those points can be engaged with, they are worth debating.
However a bald statement such as Powell can go because he is 'dog shit' has no reason, no class, nothing but hatred, not a million miles from the unreasoned hatred of the racists.'
The first part is a question.
The next bit is about reasoned argument verses nastiness.
No individual at all has been accused of being a racist, show me where it does that?
WSS says it was a 'silly' post, as did AFKA kind of earlier, and I responded straight away. Although I believe there are problems that we ought to face up to (no I don't mean the immediate footballing problems), maybe I chose the wrong time and the wrong place.
It is a touchy and sensitive subject, I probably shouldn't have raised it, but if I have invalidated all of my points with that post I suppose I will have to live with it
Maybe could be seen anti Powell, if we were to go down wouldnt blame Chris thought from start of season we would struggle.
Brilliant support didnt realise we had that many going up there.
Even me being anti Powell i join in nearly every week with chrissy powells red and white army which after yesterday now comes with a little twist.
Are some posters suggesting that i spend all saturday and a few quid going to wigan to watch us enjoy watching OUR team lose so Chris gets the sack.
Why is Chris so scared of losing matches?
Apart from losing another great day out met and said hello to a few lifers,
few laughs at the game one being the biggest cheer when thuram caught the ball.
Another being me saying to a mate "imagine if football was golden goal"
travelled all the way to wigan watched 3 minutes of football and happy that were going home after 3 minutes.
the fun and laughter and watching our team to me is what football is all about.
oh and the beer
PS.I can see this thread being closed soon...
Any criticism of him is at him the manager alone.
As for the comments about Charlton Loyal, there is post about Powell on there and I re-post it here….not what you'd expect or hoped for?
http://members5.boardhost.com/dave1307/msg/1391333613.html
Read my post again, I have NOT accused anybody of racism. I raised a question granted, and associated some of the unreasoned abuse of Chris Powell as akin to the unreasoned abuse inherent within racism.
If what I wrote is such a diabolical post then so be it. I have not singled out any individual, not isawalonsoplay or you or anybody as racists, and I am content with that.
I haven't been around much lately and it seems the forum has turned into a chaotic place...
Giving bullets to a bunch of gun toting dimwits is never a good idea.
I raised a question granted, and associated some of the unreasoned abuse of Chris Powell as akin to the unreasoned abuse inherent within racism.
I don't believe Seth was saying anyone was racist but it is a very poor comparison to make in my opinion.
I am not going to defend myself, mainly because I am not particularly being attacked, and who the hell am I anyway, not some main player on Charlton Life, but as TS Eliot would say 'am an attendant Lord who will do, to start a progress, swell a scene or two'?
I have expressed the degree of my regret for stirring up trouble, I have particularised sufficient points and I am satisfied that I have done the best I can do.