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Varney on CP sacking and RD
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No - they really do know, because Mick has given you the quotes from RD himself, chapter and verse.newyorkaddick said:
Maybe so but no-one really knows - the Sheffield Utd 'performance' certainly didn't help.PragueAddick said:I can't let you get away with that NYA . You can't criticize Varney for inconsistency while making a glaring inconsistency of your own. What @micks1950 has demonstrated clearly is that RD did not sack CP because of what you call poor performances. I'm not disagreeing with your other points, nor am I saying that parting ways with CP was fundamentally wrong, but I don't like to see people rewriting history to suit their own personal arguments
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I think the sheff utd result did play part in the decision perry1
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Yes even then - with the squad we built that summer, the minimum expectation must have been promotion. We now know 8-9 of the signings were solid Championship quality, supplemented by other experienced journeymen like Hollands and Wright-Phillips.Algarveaddick said:
Even when we were running away with League one?newyorkaddick said:
I have never suggested he wasn't a fundamentally decent man. I've just never been convinced he's a fundamentally decent manager.stilladdicted said:Oh NYA, that's a definite miaow. I thought you were better than that. I don't care if you supported CP or not, but please don't try to denigrate the qualities of a fundamentally decent man. Even RD had the good sense not to do that.
The press articles this week from Martin Samuel to Patrick Collins were ludicrously fawning to the point of being ridiculous.
And based on the matches I saw at least (others saw many more), we rarely played with much style - ironically I put the fact we got results down to the fact we had much better players than everyone else. Ironic because the familiar refrain this season has been that the players haven't been good enough - not sure he can have it both ways.2 -
So you are not implying that CP was responsible for these ' ludicrously fawning ' press reports? I am relieved about that. I have no problem with you stating your opinion of CP's competencies as a manager. I happen not to share your view and I find your phraseology somewhat simplistic and unsubstantiated,. Perhaps you could enlighten us as to what exactly was ' ludicrously fawning ' and what was 'ridiculous'? I also idly wondered how many games you have actually seen?newyorkaddick said:
I have never suggested he wasn't a fundamentally decent man. I've just never been convinced he's a fundamentally decent manager.stilladdicted said:Oh NYA, that's a definite miaow. I thought you were better than that. I don't care if you supported CP or not, but please don't try to denigrate the qualities of a fundamentally decent man. Even RD had the good sense not to do that.
The press articles this week from Martin Samuel to Patrick Collins were ludicrously fawning to the point of being ridiculous.
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someone is without doubt using the press to try to disrupt RD prague, that's obvious I don't understand how anyone can not see it
I think this is quite likely, and I don't approve of it, one little bit. People should come out and voice any criticisms of RD openly. Well I am sure VOTV will not pull its punches, you cannot accuse Rick of not criticising openly, so lets see what it has to say.
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Didn't Chris Powell make those signings, or am I mistaken?newyorkaddick said:
Yes even then - with the squad we built that summer, the minimum expectation must have been promotion. We now know 8-9 of the signings were solid Championship quality, supplemented by other experienced journeymen like Hollands and Wright-Phillips.Algarveaddick said:
Even when we were running away with League one?newyorkaddick said:
I have never suggested he wasn't a fundamentally decent man. I've just never been convinced he's a fundamentally decent manager.stilladdicted said:Oh NYA, that's a definite miaow. I thought you were better than that. I don't care if you supported CP or not, but please don't try to denigrate the qualities of a fundamentally decent man. Even RD had the good sense not to do that.
The press articles this week from Martin Samuel to Patrick Collins were ludicrously fawning to the point of being ridiculous.
And based on the matches I saw at least (others saw many more), we rarely played with much style - ironically I put the fact we got results down to the fact we had much better players than everyone else. Ironic because the familiar refrain this season has been that the players haven't been good enough - not sure he can have it both ways.0 -
That, though quite possibly correct, is speculation mate, what Mick has highlighted are facts which our friend NYA is rather keen on...nth london addick said:I think the sheff utd result did play part in the decision perry
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maybe not openly but not for free eh1
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He was no doubt part of the process but surely others (like Jimenez, Chapple etc) had influence. Either way they were great signings no doubt.Algarveaddick said:
Didn't Chris Powell make those signings, or am I mistaken?newyorkaddick said:
Yes even then - with the squad we built that summer, the minimum expectation must have been promotion. We now know 8-9 of the signings were solid Championship quality, supplemented by other experienced journeymen like Hollands and Wright-Phillips.Algarveaddick said:
Even when we were running away with League one?newyorkaddick said:
I have never suggested he wasn't a fundamentally decent man. I've just never been convinced he's a fundamentally decent manager.stilladdicted said:Oh NYA, that's a definite miaow. I thought you were better than that. I don't care if you supported CP or not, but please don't try to denigrate the qualities of a fundamentally decent man. Even RD had the good sense not to do that.
The press articles this week from Martin Samuel to Patrick Collins were ludicrously fawning to the point of being ridiculous.
And based on the matches I saw at least (others saw many more), we rarely played with much style - ironically I put the fact we got results down to the fact we had much better players than everyone else. Ironic because the familiar refrain this season has been that the players haven't been good enough - not sure he can have it both ways.
However don't forget we had wages at more than 100% of turnover (and our turnover must have been in the top 3-4 in the division).0 -
I've no idea - I doubt very much if CP rang up Patrick Collins and begged him to write a piece in the MoS.stilladdicted said:
So you are not implying that CP was responsible for these ' ludicrously fawning ' press reports? I am relieved about that. I have no problem with you stating your opinion of CP's competencies as a manager. I happen not to share your view and I find your phraseology somewhat simplistic and unsubstantiated,. Perhaps you could enlighten us as to what exactly was ' ludicrously fawning ' and what was 'ridiculous'? I also idly wondered how many games you have actually seen?newyorkaddick said:
I have never suggested he wasn't a fundamentally decent man. I've just never been convinced he's a fundamentally decent manager.stilladdicted said:Oh NYA, that's a definite miaow. I thought you were better than that. I don't care if you supported CP or not, but please don't try to denigrate the qualities of a fundamentally decent man. Even RD had the good sense not to do that.
The press articles this week from Martin Samuel to Patrick Collins were ludicrously fawning to the point of being ridiculous.
I'm prepared to wager however that he is popular with certain journalists who are willing to do him a good turn.0 - Sponsored links:
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I rest my case M'Lud...newyorkaddick said:
He was no doubt part of the process but surely others (like Jimenez, Chapple etc) had influence. Either way they were great signings no doubt.Algarveaddick said:
Didn't Chris Powell make those signings, or am I mistaken?newyorkaddick said:
Yes even then - with the squad we built that summer, the minimum expectation must have been promotion. We now know 8-9 of the signings were solid Championship quality, supplemented by other experienced journeymen like Hollands and Wright-Phillips.Algarveaddick said:
Even when we were running away with League one?newyorkaddick said:
I have never suggested he wasn't a fundamentally decent man. I've just never been convinced he's a fundamentally decent manager.stilladdicted said:Oh NYA, that's a definite miaow. I thought you were better than that. I don't care if you supported CP or not, but please don't try to denigrate the qualities of a fundamentally decent man. Even RD had the good sense not to do that.
The press articles this week from Martin Samuel to Patrick Collins were ludicrously fawning to the point of being ridiculous.
And based on the matches I saw at least (others saw many more), we rarely played with much style - ironically I put the fact we got results down to the fact we had much better players than everyone else. Ironic because the familiar refrain this season has been that the players haven't been good enough - not sure he can have it both ways.
However don't forget we had wages at more than 100% of turnover (and our turnover must have been in the top 3-4 in the division).0 -
Thanks for that Varney makes very good points, but of course CP was his mate0
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Just a couple of examples:stilladdicted said:
So you are not implying that CP was responsible for these ' ludicrously fawning ' press reports? I am relieved about that. I have no problem with you stating your opinion of CP's competencies as a manager. I happen not to share your view and I find your phraseology somewhat simplistic and unsubstantiated,. Perhaps you could enlighten us as to what exactly was ' ludicrously fawning ' and what was 'ridiculous'? I also idly wondered how many games you have actually seen?newyorkaddick said:
I have never suggested he wasn't a fundamentally decent man. I've just never been convinced he's a fundamentally decent manager.stilladdicted said:Oh NYA, that's a definite miaow. I thought you were better than that. I don't care if you supported CP or not, but please don't try to denigrate the qualities of a fundamentally decent man. Even RD had the good sense not to do that.
The press articles this week from Martin Samuel to Patrick Collins were ludicrously fawning to the point of being ridiculous.
This from PC: "The Charlton fans reacted with untypical outrage. Their team had just reached the sixth round of the FA Cup and, although struggling at the foot of the Championship, they knew that even the minimum of investment could make things right. " My view: some were outraged, some were relieved but most were sanguine. However I don't think a minimum of investment (plus the managerial status quo) would have miraculously corrected things.
This from MS: Powell was negotiating a new contract as a means of safeguarding his loyal staff but as part of that also wanted a simple assurance: control of transfer policy. A demand so old-fashioned it almost seems quaint in the modern game. My view: why should any manager have control of transfer policy? It's a crazy concept - he should be canvassed of course, but how can he have 'control'? It represents a massive misalignment of interests.0 -
I agree that some of what has been written is could be seen as rather favourable to CP, but then he was, and is, one of the more well liked and respected people in the game, so it is hardly surprising that people would want to support him and (as they might see it) keep his reputation clean.
I find it hard to believe that there is any particularly organised campaign to get at the club's new owners. If you watch Soccer Saturday, they pretty much always say that a sacked manager was unlucky and needed more time, so it is hardly unreasonable that many people should think the same about CP.
I am a journalist and (unfortunately) journalists do have a habit us just deciding on an angle for a story and finding out just enough facts and rumour to support that angle.
He will move on and so will the club.2 -
Maybe ridiculous was the wrong word - the problem with being able to touch-type is that my brain can't work as quickly as my fingers.stilladdicted said:
So you are not implying that CP was responsible for these ' ludicrously fawning ' press reports? I am relieved about that. I have no problem with you stating your opinion of CP's competencies as a manager. I happen not to share your view and I find your phraseology somewhat simplistic and unsubstantiated,. Perhaps you could enlighten us as to what exactly was ' ludicrously fawning ' and what was 'ridiculous'? I also idly wondered how many games you have actually seen?newyorkaddick said:
I have never suggested he wasn't a fundamentally decent man. I've just never been convinced he's a fundamentally decent manager.stilladdicted said:Oh NYA, that's a definite miaow. I thought you were better than that. I don't care if you supported CP or not, but please don't try to denigrate the qualities of a fundamentally decent man. Even RD had the good sense not to do that.
The press articles this week from Martin Samuel to Patrick Collins were ludicrously fawning to the point of being ridiculous.
A better word would have been unbalanced - of course there's no reason why columnists should be balanced (indeed they are expected not to be) but I think it's reasonable for fans to present some opposing views.0 -
The fact remains that CP and Roland just could not agree on some crucial points, which is extremely unfortunate. I may be less cynical than others, but I do genuinely believe that if a compromise could have been reached, CP would indeed have stayed. However, CP is a man of integrity and not one to compromise his principles, but nor should Duchatelet simply change his approach and his own principles because the manager at the club he spent 14 million pounds to buy is popular with fans.
If there was brinkmanship and a bit of bluffing/double bluffing going on, it must have been on the part of both parties - CP is nice, but not naive. He'd know as well as we did he was dealing with an owner not afraid to act decisively and against the wishes of fans in the service of his own ideas and plans. Unfortunately for Chris, he was not dealing with two bit shysters like Slater and Jiminez, he was arguing with a man who spent his own money and had his own pretty definite plans - and there would only be one winner in that confrontation.
I do agree that the press have gone a little overboard with their lauding of Powell, and demonisation of Duchatelet. We were not unlucky with the poor results of the season, they were on merit - or lack thereof. CP had achieved wonders in League One but that does not mean he is/would be equally good in the Championship. Parky struggled in the Championship and to a lesser degree in League One, but is doing well in his current position. The likes of Warnock and Holloway, or Aidy Boothroyd are all proven managers in the Championship but struggled in their Premiership years. Perhaps with time and money Powell would have been just as good in this division as the other, but it is not a certainty - last season we were grinding out results and getting by until a late surge in form, one swallow does not make a spring.
I admire CP greatly, I wish him the best in the future and I expect him to do very well. But in the time and place he was fired, his team was performing poorly and ultimately the manager MUST take some responsibility in that. Saying he had no funds, the owners were idiots (both true) mitigate his failings - but do not entirely absolve them in my eyes.7 -
we will regret it when at his next club he doesn't have most of his best players taken away from him and does brilliantly. I hope that doesn't happen and he gets a job with the FA or something.0
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Assuming that is in fact what happens. Eddie Howe was widely predicted to be the Next Big Thing after his admittedly fantastic work at Bournemouth the first time around.... that didn't last long. He's doing well again with his old club but it does show that one good season does not prove you are a good manager any time, any place. Charlton could be the Bournemouth to Chris Powell as Howe - we shall have to wait and see.DMC said:we will regret it when at his next club he doesn't have most of his best players taken away from him and does brilliantly. I hope that doesn't happen and he gets a job with the FA or something.
(For the record I expect CP to do very well for himself and his next club, I am merely disagreeing with the assumption that this is a given. It isn't.)0 -
That is unfair. If there is one poster on here who will take on any challenge head on, and indeed do so in real life too, it is @Airman Brown.nth london addick said:maybe not openly but not for free eh
Contrast that with the video of Roland Duchatelet. There seems to have been a bit of video lost in the editing suite. The bit where he states why he sacked CP. Careless editing...
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mate it may be unfair, but to start the thread on the ST boycott , to call forward the G21 summit, and to then expect the self same people he is asking to support the unkown cause,
to only have the reason why, if they pay a couple of quid waters down the point don't you think
I and other more finer posters than myself have all stated that if the only way that the cafc fanbase can find out why Rick and the 20 others feel the need to question RD is to buy the votv he will have madea real poor decision yet its looking that way
RD is there to be shot at I have no idea if his plan will work, but until someone gives me real factual reasons and not supposition I refuse to be drawn into the debate or support such things
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The only part where he really refers to Powell's actual sacking is this: "He (Powell) did a really good job in getting Charlton back into the Championship, but the facts are the facts and then you do what you really have to do….OK, that’s what we did."PragueAddick said:
That is unfair. If there is one poster on here who will take on any challenge head on, and indeed do so in real life too, it is @Airman Brown.nth london addick said:maybe not openly but not for free eh
Contrast that with the video of Roland Duchatelet. There seems to have been a bit of video lost in the editing suite. The bit where he states why he sacked CP. Careless editing...
Not exactly detailed but that hints strongly towards a clash of thinking that could not be resolved so RD sacked his manager.0 -
Which he is well within his rights to do as I have repeatedly stated. Powell would not bend, RD would not bend, so RD acted strongly and decisively (correctly is still up in the air.) I admire Powell but I cannot help but feeling that at least a portion of this falling out lies on his shoulders - RD seems a little too pragmatic to conjure some argument out of thin air.Ormiston Addick said:
The only part where he really refers to Powell's actual sacking is this: "He (Powell) did a really good job in getting Charlton back into the Championship, but the facts are the facts and then you do what you really have to do….OK, that’s what we did."PragueAddick said:
That is unfair. If there is one poster on here who will take on any challenge head on, and indeed do so in real life too, it is @Airman Brown.nth london addick said:maybe not openly but not for free eh
Contrast that with the video of Roland Duchatelet. There seems to have been a bit of video lost in the editing suite. The bit where he states why he sacked CP. Careless editing...
Not exactly detailed but that hints strongly towards a clash of thinking that could not be resolved so RD sacked his manager.1 -
That's the way I see it too, it's a shame but there you have it, there can only be one boss and one strategy!thenewbie said:
Which he is well within his rights to do as I have repeatedly stated. Powell would not bend, RD would not bend, so RD acted strongly and decisively (correctly is still up in the air.) I admire Powell but I cannot help but feeling that at least a portion of this falling out lies on his shoulders - RD seems a little too pragmatic to conjure some argument out of thin air.Ormiston Addick said:
The only part where he really refers to Powell's actual sacking is this: "He (Powell) did a really good job in getting Charlton back into the Championship, but the facts are the facts and then you do what you really have to do….OK, that’s what we did."PragueAddick said:
That is unfair. If there is one poster on here who will take on any challenge head on, and indeed do so in real life too, it is @Airman Brown.nth london addick said:maybe not openly but not for free eh
Contrast that with the video of Roland Duchatelet. There seems to have been a bit of video lost in the editing suite. The bit where he states why he sacked CP. Careless editing...
Not exactly detailed but that hints strongly towards a clash of thinking that could not be resolved so RD sacked his manager.1 -
Fine. Bend about what exactly? What is the issue? Why not just tell us?thenewbie said:
Which he is well within his rights to do as I have repeatedly stated. Powell would not bend, RD would not bend, so RD acted strongly and decisively (correctly is still up in the air.) I admire Powell but I cannot help but feeling that at least a portion of this falling out lies on his shoulders - RD seems a little too pragmatic to conjure some argument out of thin air.Ormiston Addick said:
The only part where he really refers to Powell's actual sacking is this: "He (Powell) did a really good job in getting Charlton back into the Championship, but the facts are the facts and then you do what you really have to do….OK, that’s what we did."PragueAddick said:
That is unfair. If there is one poster on here who will take on any challenge head on, and indeed do so in real life too, it is @Airman Brown.nth london addick said:maybe not openly but not for free eh
Contrast that with the video of Roland Duchatelet. There seems to have been a bit of video lost in the editing suite. The bit where he states why he sacked CP. Careless editing...
Not exactly detailed but that hints strongly towards a clash of thinking that could not be resolved so RD sacked his manager.
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Well we were all lead to believe that it was because he wouldn't pick the players that RD managed to bring into the Club, rather than the one's CP wanted to pick.PragueAddick said:
Fine. Bend about what exactly? What is the issue? Why not just tell us?thenewbie said:
Which he is well within his rights to do as I have repeatedly stated. Powell would not bend, RD would not bend, so RD acted strongly and decisively (correctly is still up in the air.) I admire Powell but I cannot help but feeling that at least a portion of this falling out lies on his shoulders - RD seems a little too pragmatic to conjure some argument out of thin air.Ormiston Addick said:
The only part where he really refers to Powell's actual sacking is this: "He (Powell) did a really good job in getting Charlton back into the Championship, but the facts are the facts and then you do what you really have to do….OK, that’s what we did."PragueAddick said:
That is unfair. If there is one poster on here who will take on any challenge head on, and indeed do so in real life too, it is @Airman Brown.nth london addick said:maybe not openly but not for free eh
Contrast that with the video of Roland Duchatelet. There seems to have been a bit of video lost in the editing suite. The bit where he states why he sacked CP. Careless editing...
Not exactly detailed but that hints strongly towards a clash of thinking that could not be resolved so RD sacked his manager.
It was reported on here and reported in the press. If you say something enough times, then enough people will believe you.
Yesterdays line up and bench really quashes that 'fact'.
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RD has been here five minutes and facing constant criticism. The previous regime were here much longer and did far more damage, if RD has actually done any, but didn't face such a campaign against them. All I can see is that RD has sold a fans favourite who refused a new contract and sacked a much loved manager albeit an under performing one at the time. I really just don't understand it, I really don't.2
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You are looking at the pages not the book as a whole, the negativity is in relation to our long term future. IF we are to be fed SL dud's and feed them our good stuff, and other such negatives then there is reason to be worried imo. But on short term ownership, the current 'chapter' so to speak he is in most fans good books. The maker or breaker will be the post-season, this will test his mettle, if his wallet is asking for a little too much extra cash back we will be bang in trouble in either league. Let's hope not!LargeAddick said:RD has been here five minutes and facing constant criticism. The previous regime were here much longer and did far more damage, if RD has actually done any, but didn't face such a campaign against them. All I can see is that RD has sold a fans favourite who refused a new contract and sacked a much loved manager albeit an under performing one at the time. I really just don't understand it, I really don't.
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You've read a few pages and are now guessing the end of the book with no knowledge of whether it's true or not. Wait for facts to back up your point of view before deciding it's 100% true.Atletico Addick said:
You are looking at the pages not the book as a whole, the negativity is in relation to our long term future. IF we are to be fed SL dud's and feed them our good stuff, and other such negatives then there is reason to be worried imo. But on short term ownership, the current 'chapter' so to speak he is in most fans good books. The maker or breaker will be the post-season, this will test his mettle, if his wallet is asking for a little too much extra cash back we will be bang in trouble in either league. Let's hope not!LargeAddick said:RD has been here five minutes and facing constant criticism. The previous regime were here much longer and did far more damage, if RD has actually done any, but didn't face such a campaign against them. All I can see is that RD has sold a fans favourite who refused a new contract and sacked a much loved manager albeit an under performing one at the time. I really just don't understand it, I really don't.
You're telling people to stop being so positive because they have no idea what's going to happen, try use some of your own logic and stop being so negative.6 -
Am I? news to me!SELR_addicks said:
You're telling people to stop being so positive because they have no idea what's going to happen
And also I am not guessing as to anything, there is a very big IF at the start of my comment, IF that happens then there is reason to be worried. You've bit back at me when I am in no way being negative, I am saying as to why people have negativity looming in their heads. You judge whats happening as a bigger picture, you worry about what might happen and on the other hand you pray the better stuff will happen, so far the better stuff has happened, so far!0
