Thanks for taking the time to post this, Fanny, and for enlightening us a little more. I certainly appreciate the time and effort that volunteers put in to representing their groups to the Club.
I nevertheless continue to have a couple of concerns:
- Why should it be the role of a volunteer to take the minutes? Could a Club employee not do this, and then ensure a quick turnaround of the minutes? As I said above, I have no issue with the need to approve formal minutes before publicaiton, but it is crazy if these are not published till c two weeks after the meeting, especially at a time like this when the relationship between Club and fans is shaky to say the least.
- I still cannot get my head around how Katrien was not, at minimum, economical with the truth. She made a statement on Monday saying that the search would be thorough and for a long-term replacement, yet at the press conference unveiling Luzon, she said he became the favourite on Sunday night. Both of those statements cannot be totally true. As you know, I have met her, and found her to be a charming, engaging and intelligent person. However, I'm afraid I do now see her simply as there to do Roland's bidding without question, and have lost faith that she will in any way stand up for the interests of the fans and the club to Papa Smurf.
Excellent point that needs answering from Katrien Meire.
But what about the line before that too? Sorry, but that whole statement reads like they will be taking their time to find the right person, not that they knew already who it was and were in the process of booking him a flight to The Valley!
Weegie, I'm probably wrong but I was certain that when the statement was originally posted there was a reference to a long search for the correct manager for the club, this would make sense with reference to Damian and Bob being caretakers. Then the reference appeared to be removed. I know I'm not the only person who believes this as on a FB group somebody else said the same.
But what about the line before that too? Sorry, but that whole statement reads like they will be taking their time to find the right person, not that they knew already who it was and were in the process of booking him a flight to The Valley!
Weegie, I'm probably wrong but I was certain that when the statement was originally posted there was a reference to a long search for the correct manager for the club, this would make sense with reference to Damian and Bob being caretakers. Then the reference appeared to be removed. I know I'm not the only person who believes this as on a FB group somebody else said the same.
if you read the Club Statement thread it has been copied and pasted on there as the first item on the thread so unless that has been doctored I believe you are mistaken
You talk about lines of communication with the club. The problem is that they are now stopped as far as non reps are concerned until the minutes are agreed. I have attended child protection case conferences where the minutes were agreed at the end of the meeting and disseminated to those who needed them by the end of the working day. Why can't you guys do this? I don't want to personalise this but if you accept this way of doing stuff you can expect minor kerfufles when the club goes through a crisis and any info is embargo'd in this way.
I'm sorry, what absolute tosh.
What f***ing crisis?
If you think what has happened in the last few days is a crisis, what the f*** did u think 9/11 was.
It is football. Not WWIII, not the Ebola epidemic.
I have never sworn on this site before, but this is ridiculous. No one died. A few people may have been slightly inconvenienced.
Some of you need to grow up.
And thanks, Fanny, for your clarification. Most helpful.
But what about the line before that too? Sorry, but that whole statement reads like they will be taking their time to find the right person, not that they knew already who it was and were in the process of booking him a flight to The Valley!
Weegie, I'm probably wrong but I was certain that when the statement was originally posted there was a reference to a long search for the correct manager for the club, this would make sense with reference to Damian and Bob being caretakers. Then the reference appeared to be removed. I know I'm not the only person who believes this as on a FB group somebody else said the same.
if you read the Club Statement thread it has been copied and pasted on there as the first item on the thread so unless that has been doctored I believe you are mistaken
Fair enough Large. Probably a misinterpretation, but I was sure I'd read it.
One of the issues discussed at the forum was the large number of complaints the club has received about the hopelessness of the new programme sales arrangements, in particular the reduced number of sellers and their lack of visibility. The club is promising to improve things for the Rotherham game.
Friday night football was also discussed and the consensus was against it, but the club intends to move some matches anyway - probably because an edict has come from Belgium, but that's just my opinion.
I could go on, but I hope this illustrates the pointlessness of the present minutes arrangements!
Thanks Fanny but I was under the impression that it takes a few weeks to get a work permit for a non EEC citizen. The club would of needed to sponsor him and I can't see how all this red tape was completed on a Monday to enable him to be announced on a Tuesday.
One of the issues discussed at the forum was the large number of complaints the club has received about the hopelessness of the new programme sales arrangements, in particular the reduced number of sellers and their lack of visibility. The club is promising to improve things for the Rotherham game.
Friday night football was also discussed and the consensus was against it, but the club intends to move some matches anyway.
I could go on, but I hope this illustrates the pointlessness of the present minutes arrangements!
Thanks, Rick. Re Friday night football: another reason why I won't be bothering to book any flights down from Glasgow, as they'll probably go and move the match at about three weeks' notice. And more proof that the current regime has no intention of actually listening to fans.
I'm bemused as to why people can't wait a week for these minutes given that most of the topics are, no doubt, mundane (but necessary) to the average fan.
I really don't expect KM to come out justifying everything she said only for others to pick holes in it. There's clearly more to the situation than meets the eye but, equally, there's probably nothing to be gained by going through the whole saga in the public domain.
For the moment I'm happy to trust that RD's long term aim is the Prem, he never promised it this season or even next but he have to be an idiot not to have this as the eventual goal. Please remember how the current situation is compared with some of the other shit we've had to put up with since Curbs left - you pick - Ben Haim or Doherty, Gudmundsson or Gillespie, Buyens or Racon, Vetokele or Dickson.
Ideally I'd love to have had Curbs but that was never going to happen and I'm prepared to judge the new Guy on results. At this stage I'd much rather have him than some other recycled piece of dead wood like Paul Jewell or Dave Jones.
As far as I can see KM's only 'crime' is maybe not setting expectations too well but the level of vitriol is completely disproportionate. Get some perspective folks.
One of the issues discussed at the forum was the large number of complaints the club has received about the hopelessness of the new programme sales arrangements, in particular the reduced number of sellers and their lack of visibility. The club is promising to improve things for the Rotherham game.
Friday night football was also discussed and the consensus was against it, but the club intends to move some matches anyway.
I could go on, but I hope this illustrates the pointlessness of the present minutes arrangements!
Thanks, Rick. Re Friday night football: another reason why I won't be bothering to book any flights down from Glasgow, as they'll probably go and move the match at about three weeks' notice. And more proof that the current regime has no intention of actually listening to fans.
I hope that if this is true they tell the fans before the ST's go on sale, as I would not be able to make Friday nights, and would influence wether I buy a one next season.
One of the issues discussed at the forum was the large number of complaints the club has received about the hopelessness of the new programme sales arrangements, in particular the reduced number of sellers and their lack of visibility. The club is promising to improve things for the Rotherham game.
Friday night football was also discussed and the consensus was against it, but the club intends to move some matches anyway.
I could go on, but I hope this illustrates the pointlessness of the present minutes arrangements!
Thanks, Rick. Re Friday night football: another reason why I won't be bothering to book any flights down from Glasgow, as they'll probably go and move the match at about three weeks' notice. And more proof that the current regime has no intention of actually listening to fans.
same here but the train from Lancaster, this club is really becoming a joke as they ask the fans a question and then go and ignore the answer because some twat in Belgium wants to - I know it's his money but he won't get far without our money
But what about the line before that too? Sorry, but that whole statement reads like they will be taking their time to find the right person, not that they knew already who it was and were in the process of booking him a flight to The Valley!
Especially as (as I posted a few days ago), "the club statement was headed "Search under way for new Charlton Head Coach" and went on to say "as the club began the process of searching for his replacement on Monday afternoon". That clearly states that there was going to be a search process. That implies, at the very least, a review of available candidates and some kind of selection against defined criteria".
However, I trust and respect Fanny's integrity 100% so if she is convinced this whole episode was mis-communication rather than dis-information (my words, not Fanny's) then I am prepared to accept that. After all, she and the other reps have heard KM's side of things, whereas the rest of us have had to draw our own, unsurprising, conclusions as the events unfolded. I for one, withdraw my comments/accusations against KM, and with a sense of relief too - because while I remain of the opinion that she was a bit ham-fisted in all this affair, I would much rather that than think her deceitful.
I don't suppose the minutes will include anything other than a brief reference to KMs statement, with zero real content, so we will have to accept that, or not, based on what we have heard so far.
Thanks for posting @Fanny Fanackapan, and for taking the time and trouble to represent the majority so well.
Thanks for taking the time to post this, Fanny, and for enlightening us a little more. I certainly appreciate the time and effort that volunteers put in to representing their groups to the Club.
I nevertheless continue to have a couple of concerns:
- Why should it be the role of a volunteer to take the minutes? Could a Club employee not do this, and then ensure a quick turnaround of the minutes? As I said above, I have no issue with the need to approve formal minutes before publicaiton, but it is crazy if these are not published till c two weeks after the meeting, especially at a time like this when the relationship between Club and fans is shaky to say the least.
- I still cannot get my head around how Katrien was not, at minimum, economical with the truth. She made a statement on Monday saying that the search would be thorough and for a long-term replacement, yet at the press conference unveiling Luzon, she said he became the favourite on Sunday night. Both of those statements cannot be totally true. As you know, I have met her, and found her to be a charming, engaging and intelligent person. However, I'm afraid I do now see her simply as there to do Roland's bidding without question, and have lost faith that she will in any way stand up for the interests of the fans and the club to Papa Smurf.
not looking for a fight but she didn't say that, she said:
“It was a very difficult decision to reach,” said Meire.
“We had been very supportive of Bob until the very last moment, but the disappointing nature of performances and results in recent matches forced us to look at the situation.
“Despite recent rumours in the media we had not considered this option until after Saturday’s game.
“We have won just once in the past 12 matches and with the January transfer window open it is an important time of the season for the club.
“We feel this is the right decision for the club and I have asked Damian Matthew and Ben Roberts to take temporary charge. I have no doubts they will do an excellent job taking care of the side for the time being.
“We know how important it is to make sure this next appointment is the right one because I understand that this club needs and deserves a Head Coach who can plan and take charge for the long-term.
“I realise this decision has taken some by surprise, but there is still a lot to play for this season and we want to try and ensure the 2014/15 campaign ends as successfully as it started.”
so nowhere did she say it would be a thorough search and by appointing Luzon they believe they have made the right appointment. the only thing you can argue is how we all define 'long-term'.
Sure, but what was the point of announcing you were putting anyone in temporary charge if you knew within hours you were simply going to redeploy someone already employed within the network? Either she didn't know or there was, shall we say, some spin at play. At the very least, it seems KM and RD were not on the same page.
As for the FF minutes, get a grip people. How many meetings have minutes published to the general public within hours? It is very usual for minutes of meetings to take a day or two to produce, then be subject to a review cycle before publishing. Indeed, it is very common for minutes to be ratified at the next meeting. I understand why this time people want them more urgently, but it's not reasonable to demand a different practice to normal.
Or more to the point, if you feel they should be published more quickly by rote then get someone to propose that formally at the next FF. Then wait a month to hear the outcome... ;-)
You talk about lines of communication with the club. The problem is that they are now stopped as far as non reps are concerned until the minutes are agreed. I have attended child protection case conferences where the minutes were agreed at the end of the meeting and disseminated to those who needed them by the end of the working day. Why can't you guys do this? I don't want to personalise this but if you accept this way of doing stuff you can expect minor kerfufles when the club goes through a crisis and any info is embargo'd in this way.
Possibly because a child protection case which involves the safety and wellbeing of a child is more important than a decision by a football club on the hiring process of a manager.
Of course but there's no reason why minutes can't be agreed as each item is finished. Then you know the meeting agrees them whilst fresh in their mind and they don't get manipulated on their way to approval by someone who didn't even attend the meeting. Like M Duchatelet.
I think you are rather deluded if you think Roland would have the slightest interest in the FF minutes...
Well according to Fanny they have to be agreed by the CEO as the last stage before release. So his poodle does it for him.
One of the issues discussed at the forum was the large number of complaints the club has received about the hopelessness of the new programme sales arrangements, in particular the reduced number of sellers and their lack of visibility. The club is promising to improve things for the Rotherham game.
Friday night football was also discussed and the consensus was against it, but the club intends to move some matches anyway - probably because an edict has come from Belgium, but that's just my opinion.
I could go on, but I hope this illustrates the pointlessness of the present minutes arrangements!
Well, I'm presuming that the minutes have already been agreed ( not by me yet) & posted on the OS .
Why do I believe this ?
Because AB was NOT at the meeting and isn't on the list of those invited since before he left the Club.
So much for FF members being discreet & honouring the current system.
Sworn to secrecy? You what? I know that minutes have to be approved as accurate and all that, but that is usually at the start of the next meeting which I reckon is much more than two weeks away. Is it secret because the da Vinci Code has been cracked or something. Sheesh!
Just going over posts I've missed so to clarify this point, the minutes are typed up, emailed to FF members & when agreed & passed by CEO, posted on the OS.
I'm assuming that a 2 week period has been mentioned at some point as this would be the latest they would expect to be available for general viewing.
Fanny. Whilst grilling the administration how many times did you hear 'cross my heart and hope to die' and'I swear on my mothers/fathers/children's/grandparents/goldfish* lives, that was not the case' ?
One of the issues discussed at the forum was the large number of complaints the club has received about the hopelessness of the new programme sales arrangements, in particular the reduced number of sellers and their lack of visibility. The club is promising to improve things for the Rotherham game.
Friday night football was also discussed and the consensus was against it, but the club intends to move some matches anyway - probably because an edict has come from Belgium, but that's just my opinion.
I could go on, but I hope this illustrates the pointlessness of the present minutes arrangements!
Well, I'm presuming that the minutes have already been agreed ( not by me yet) & posted on the OS .
Why do I believe this ?
Because AB was NOT at the meeting and isn't on the list of those invited since before he left the Club.
So much for FF members being discreet & honouring the current system.
Wonder who the mole is ?
Not quite true, Fanny. I was the lead club rep at the last FF meeting before I left, having convened the previous meetings. In fact, I set it up in its current format, with groups represented, rather than self-nominating individuals.
In my experience it's a useful forum, but it had a very different role from, say, Target 40k, where the idea was that the club drew on people's experience and expertise, rather than representing others.
One of the issues discussed at the forum was the large number of complaints the club has received about the hopelessness of the new programme sales arrangements, in particular the reduced number of sellers and their lack of visibility. The club is promising to improve things for the Rotherham game.
Friday night football was also discussed and the consensus was against it, but the club intends to move some matches anyway - probably because an edict has come from Belgium, but that's just my opinion.
I could go on, but I hope this illustrates the pointlessness of the present minutes arrangements!
Well, I'm presuming that the minutes have already been agreed ( not by me yet) & posted on the OS .
Why do I believe this ?
Because AB was NOT at the meeting and isn't on the list of those invited since before he left the Club.
So much for FF members being discreet & honouring the current system.
Wonder who the mole is ?
but it had a very different role from, say, Target 40k, where the idea was that the club drew on people's experience and expertise, rather than representing others.
One of the issues discussed at the forum was the large number of complaints the club has received about the hopelessness of the new programme sales arrangements, in particular the reduced number of sellers and their lack of visibility. The club is promising to improve things for the Rotherham game.
Friday night football was also discussed and the consensus was against it, but the club intends to move some matches anyway - probably because an edict has come from Belgium, but that's just my opinion.
I could go on, but I hope this illustrates the pointlessness of the present minutes arrangements!
Well, I'm presuming that the minutes have already been agreed ( not by me yet) & posted on the OS .
Why do I believe this ?
Because AB was NOT at the meeting and isn't on the list of those invited since before he left the Club.
So much for FF members being discreet & honouring the current system.
Wonder who the mole is ?
but it had a very different role from, say, Target 40k, where the idea was that the club drew on people's experience and expertise, rather than representing others.
Lol! 40k
A tried and tested setup then.
As I've explained before, the title was political and to do with the aim of getting planning permission for a 40,000 capacity when it was set up. We discussed changing it later, but there was no enthusiasm for doing so.
The committee did a lot of good work and provided the board with robust business cases for ticket pricing and Valley Express - it led to evidence-based decision making, as opposed to doing it by whim and fantasy as we have now.
The Trust was so close to gaining my membership for the first time. I agree with every word of the original statement.
I've then read through this thread and realised that yet again the Trust - an independent fans body - has agreed to be bound by the reporting restrictions of the club.
Perhaps the trust should remind themselves of what they have asked of the club and take a leaf out of their own book:
'The Trust aims to rekindle that relationship between the fans and the Club. We believe that mutual trust and openness will help channel the fans’ passion in a way which is positive financially for the club and emotionally for the fans. We have consistently sought dialogue with the Club, with this aim.'
One of the issues discussed at the forum was the large number of complaints the club has received about the hopelessness of the new programme sales arrangements, in particular the reduced number of sellers and their lack of visibility. The club is promising to improve things for the Rotherham game.
Friday night football was also discussed and the consensus was against it, but the club intends to move some matches anyway - probably because an edict has come from Belgium, but that's just my opinion.
I could go on, but I hope this illustrates the pointlessness of the present minutes arrangements!
Don't see the problem with this.
Both are issues that some fans have raised.
In fact I remember both being discussed in a magazine called Voice of the Valley that I think you've heard of.
The FF asked the club and they got a response.
Is either a big secret or a pressing issue? No, so it can wait a few hours. I agree it shouldn't be a few weeks but I don't remember minutes from T40k arriving within 24 or 48 hours.
I'll leave the issue of the mole and how happy they will be with you revealing that they leaked the news to you and you then posted it on here to the other FF members to debate.
Comments
I'm not expecting it to make the cut of these supposed minutes.
pah! They'll be more like seconds by the time Roland and his pets have gone through it.
What f***ing crisis?
If you think what has happened in the last few days is a crisis, what the f*** did u think 9/11 was.
It is football. Not WWIII, not the Ebola epidemic.
I have never sworn on this site before, but this is ridiculous. No one died. A few people may have been slightly inconvenienced.
Some of you need to grow up.
And thanks, Fanny, for your clarification. Most helpful.
but there is still a lot to play for this season and we want to try and ensure the 2014/15 campaign ends as successfully as it started.”
Eighty points target?
There are still 63 points to play for.
Friday night football was also discussed and the consensus was against it, but the club intends to move some matches anyway - probably because an edict has come from Belgium, but that's just my opinion.
I could go on, but I hope this illustrates the pointlessness of the present minutes arrangements!
Re Friday night football: another reason why I won't be bothering to book any flights down from Glasgow, as they'll probably go and move the match at about three weeks' notice. And more proof that the current regime has no intention of actually listening to fans.
I'm bemused as to why people can't wait a week for these minutes given that most of the topics are, no doubt, mundane (but necessary) to the average fan.
I really don't expect KM to come out justifying everything she said only for others to pick holes in it. There's clearly more to the situation than meets the eye but, equally, there's probably nothing to be gained by going through the whole saga in the public domain.
For the moment I'm happy to trust that RD's long term aim is the Prem, he never promised it this season or even next but he have to be an idiot not to have this as the eventual goal. Please remember how the current situation is compared with some of the other shit we've had to put up with since Curbs left - you pick - Ben Haim or Doherty, Gudmundsson or Gillespie, Buyens or Racon, Vetokele or Dickson.
Ideally I'd love to have had Curbs but that was never going to happen and I'm prepared to judge the new Guy on results. At this stage I'd much rather have him than some other recycled piece of dead wood like Paul Jewell or Dave Jones.
As far as I can see KM's only 'crime' is maybe not setting expectations too well but the level of vitriol is completely disproportionate. Get some perspective folks.
However, I trust and respect Fanny's integrity 100% so if she is convinced this whole episode was mis-communication rather than dis-information (my words, not Fanny's) then I am prepared to accept that. After all, she and the other reps have heard KM's side of things, whereas the rest of us have had to draw our own, unsurprising, conclusions as the events unfolded. I for one, withdraw my comments/accusations against KM, and with a sense of relief too - because while I remain of the opinion that she was a bit ham-fisted in all this affair, I would much rather that than think her deceitful.
I don't suppose the minutes will include anything other than a brief reference to KMs statement, with zero real content, so we will have to accept that, or not, based on what we have heard so far.
Thanks for posting @Fanny Fanackapan, and for taking the time and trouble to represent the majority so well.
As for the FF minutes, get a grip people. How many meetings have minutes published to the general public within hours? It is very usual for minutes of meetings to take a day or two to produce, then be subject to a review cycle before publishing. Indeed, it is very common for minutes to be ratified at the next meeting. I understand why this time people want them more urgently, but it's not reasonable to demand a different practice to normal.
Or more to the point, if you feel they should be published more quickly by rote then get someone to propose that formally at the next FF. Then wait a month to hear the outcome... ;-)
Why do I believe this ?
Because AB was NOT at the meeting and isn't on the list of those invited since before he left the Club.
So much for FF members being discreet & honouring the current system.
Wonder who the mole is ?
I'm assuming that a 2 week period has been mentioned at some point as this would be the latest they would expect to be available for general viewing.
Whilst grilling the administration how many times did you hear 'cross my heart and hope to die' and'I swear on my mothers/fathers/children's/grandparents/goldfish* lives, that was not the case' ?
*delete as appropriate
In my experience it's a useful forum, but it had a very different role from, say, Target 40k, where the idea was that the club drew on people's experience and expertise, rather than representing others.
A tried and tested setup then.
The committee did a lot of good work and provided the board with robust business cases for ticket pricing and Valley Express - it led to evidence-based decision making, as opposed to doing it by whim and fantasy as we have now.
I've then read through this thread and realised that yet again the Trust - an independent fans body - has agreed to be bound by the reporting restrictions of the club.
Perhaps the trust should remind themselves of what they have asked of the club and take a leaf out of their own book:
'The Trust aims to rekindle that relationship between the fans and the Club. We believe that mutual trust and openness will help channel the fans’ passion in a way which is positive financially for the club and emotionally for the fans. We have consistently sought dialogue with the Club, with this aim.'
Both are issues that some fans have raised.
In fact I remember both being discussed in a magazine called Voice of the Valley that I think you've heard of.
The FF asked the club and they got a response.
Is either a big secret or a pressing issue? No, so it can wait a few hours. I agree it shouldn't be a few weeks but I don't remember minutes from T40k arriving within 24 or 48 hours.
I'll leave the issue of the mole and how happy they will be with you revealing that they leaked the news to you and you then posted it on here to the other FF members to debate.