Not a follower but is there not a market for a sport where they all race in the same type of car so it is truly a test of the best driver rather than the best drivers in the best cars?
As i said GP2. Equivalent of championship football. The best in f1 (hamilton IMO) proved himself as the best in the lower formulae when everyone was battered by him in the same car. He utterly thrashed Vettel for instance in F3. Destroyed him in fact to the point of embarrassment.
Pound for pound, Alonso and Hamilton are a level above everyone else, with Ricciardo, Rosberg, Vettel just behind. Button, Raikonnen, Massa, Bottas, Grosjean, Kvyat and Hulkenburg after that, then Maldonado, Perez and Ericsson. Too early to judge Sainz, Verstappen, Nasr, Stevens and Merhi really, but I feel the latter two are simply money men for the struggling Manor.
Don't see how anyone can call last year dull. Sure Mercedes had the Constructors title all tied up, but at least with the Drivers Championship it was between two great drivers in the same team battling against each other in a superior car, occasionally hampered by driving errors or technical faults. The drama throughout the season was brilliant.
It also made it even more amazing when Ricciardo won his 3 races, and the new rule changes meant Force India got a rare podium when their car was driving well at the start, Williams getting back on the podium and Ferrari, McLaren and Red Bull doing surprisingly poorly.
Also the spectacle of the races alone - Monaco, Canada, Hungary, Spa, Bahrain - they were some of the best races of the past few years for the drama and battles from the front to the back of the grid.
I am in agreement that this season looks like it's going to be very boring, dull and predictable, and the FIA need to do something about it and not cost-cut in unnecessary areas (unfreeze engine development during the season maybe?), especially when Germany is looking unlikely to host a GP and maybe other countries may decide not to for economic reasons, especially if races continue to finish with only 11 cars (highly unlikely though).
At least we have rookies like Nasr, Sainz and Verstappen who may surprise a few people, and Ferrari look as if they're improving. Vettel is actually quite likeable now as well.
Give me last year over the 2013 season any day though.
Not a follower but is there not a market for a sport where they all race in the same type of car so it is truly a test of the best driver rather than the best drivers in the best cars?
As i said GP2. Equivalent of championship football. The best in f1 (hamilton IMO) proved himself as the best in the lower formulae when everyone was battered by him in the same car. He utterly thrashed Vettel for instance in F3. Destroyed him in fact to the point of embarrassment.
When did this happen? I only ask because at two and a half years his elder you would have expected Hamilton to beat Vettel at that time I would have thought.
Not a follower but is there not a market for a sport where they all race in the same type of car so it is truly a test of the best driver rather than the best drivers in the best cars?
As i said GP2. Equivalent of championship football. The best in f1 (hamilton IMO) proved himself as the best in the lower formulae when everyone was battered by him in the same car. He utterly thrashed Vettel for instance in F3. Destroyed him in fact to the point of embarrassment.
When did this happen? I only ask because at two and a half years his elder you would have expected Hamilton to beat Vettel at that time I would have thought.
It looked like bullshit to me, so I looked it up. It was Vettel's first season at the level, 2005, when he was about 18. Hamilton was 20. Hamilton seemed to run away with it, very impressive set of results. Vettel finished 5th.
In Hamilton's first season at that level, he finished... 5th.
I am a real Hamilton fan but I don't believe that he is significantly better than Vettel. I think Vettel is probably as good as Hamilton and has, after all, got four world championships already.
In F1 it is all about the car but Hamilton hasn't out scored his team mate as consistently as Vettel has.
Vettel got battered by Danny Ric last year! So is Paul Di Resta better than both of them - going by F3?!
Vettel is good - but he got schooled by Ricciardo last year, and his record in the junior formulae was not at the level of the Hamiltons of this world. All his titles came in a Red Bull that was on rails (crikey, even Webber almost won a title). Hamilton beat Alonso in his rookie year, won a title in 08 against a strong Ferrari, and won races in 09 in a mclaren that was, by any standards, pants.
Lewis has consistently shown himself to be outstanding in wheel to wheel combat. Last year versus his team mate showed Vettel up in that regard.
Yeah Paul di Resta was probably better than Vettel 10 years ago. And Jamie Green was probably better than Hamilton 11 years ago. What's your point, caller?
The differences in the cars is part of the fascination for a lot of fans, of course in the old days the differences were more significant and more noticable now, the cars look the same and only the liveries differentiate them. Lots of fans could reel off their favorite cars, ( i.e. Lotus 79, McLaren M23, Surtees TS20) this would largely go if they were the same.
Also many fans follow a team rather than a driver, you only have to see how many Ferrari, Mercedes and McLaren flags and racewear there are at a race to spot this. By making the cars the same a lot of this team loyalty will go.
Same car formulas have been around for ages ie Indy, F3.5, Formula E, and dont pull in the crowds or money like F1 does, you may as well ask the drivers to drive Ford Fiestas if you want to see the drivers race in equal cars, problem is you would have no tv coverage and fifteen fans and a dog watching.
F1 gets its glamour from big manufacturors, suppliers and sponsors lumping up huge sums to fund the whole televised thing, but because they have gone down this route of incredibly expensive, high tech, fuel efficient, energy recovering turbo engines largely driven by a small number of car manufacturors trying to promote a green image, they are in danger of alienating traditional fans and boring all those who are only occasional viewers.
Not a follower but is there not a market for a sport where they all race in the same type of car so it is truly a test of the best driver rather than the best drivers in the best cars?
Yes, huge numbers of them. In the UK alone there's stuff like the Mini Festival, Formula Ford, Honda Civics, Mazda MX5s, BMW E36s, etc etc. then there's the stock hot hatch races, plus touring cars which are from different manufacturers but still competitive and exciting. Then there's the GTs and Porsches not to mention stuff like the Bentley races. There's even (still) a quite popular series The TVR European Challenge running cars some of which are pretty much the same as they were in 1989. They are loud, fast and very difficult to drive but great fun to watch.
I think F1 needs to decide whether it's a test bed for technological innovation or a race series. It can't carry on being both. Changing the spec virtually every year is just stupid.
Take the aforementioned TVRs. They've been going for years, the races are short, maybe 30 mins. but a set of tyres might (if you are lucky) last the season - not a third of one race! They still get up to about 190 mph (which is reasonably fast) without the use of all that F1 techno-crap like DRS.
So what would I do with F1? I'd give a point or two for fastest lap as well as pole position. I'd ban tyre changes except for punctures or wet weather - none of that two different compound bollocks. I'd make the races shorter, maybe half the number of laps but run two races per meeting, I'd ban automatic gearboxes, DRS, aerodynamic aids, kinetic motors, and I'd bring the wheels inboard so that they were much less likely to be damaged during the race. I'd remove the maximum amount of fuel that can be used so that drivers didn't have to ponce around adjusting engine settings the whole race.
What about the engines, well a 1.6 litre turbo is an engine for going to Tesco in not for the World's primary (as it would like to think of itself) race series. They are rumoured to knock out about 600hp which, frankly, is pathetic. (Again, some of the old TVRs are close to that and cost their owners peanuts.)
In the USA there are Indycar and NASCAR races. Both sets of cars have a faster top speed than F1 and engines knocking out more horses. It's perhaps no surprise that F1 has had such a hard time breaking in to the lucrative US market.
In NASCAR if it ain't rubbin', it ain't racin'. There's none of that "Alonzo just hit me - give him a drive through penalty" crap.
BTW, don't tell the Americans because they wouldn't like it, but although an Indycar engine block might say Chevrolet on it, it's actually made by Ilmor Engineering in Northamptonshire.
I am a real Hamilton fan but I don't believe that he is significantly better than Vettel. I think Vettel is probably as good as Hamilton and has, after all, got four world championships already.
In F1 it is all about the car but Hamilton hasn't out scored his team mate as consistently as Vettel has.
Not sure I follow the logic here. Hamilton has a team-mate who is a decent driver and they are battling each other for race wins and championships. Vettel had a team-mate (Webber) who was average at best and simply could not match Vettel. The fact that Vettel is nowhere now that his car is not competitive whereas Ricciardo is still putting up a fight shows that those championship wins were much more to do with the car than the driver.
The logic, if that's necessary, is that the only comparison one can truly make is based on having the same equipment. Hamilton didn't outscore Button in each season, whereas Vettel outscored Webber for four seasons in a row and I'm convinced that Webber thought he was in a championship battle.
I don't really care, but I don't see how there is any measure that can compare Hamilton with Vettel. The only time they were in comparable cars one was two and a half years older and they were both young. Comparing achievements under 20 is irresponsible. How many times have we seen a youth player that made all his peers look average but he failed to develop and saw those around him go past him?
I think Vettel has developed a lot from the teenager that was beaten by Hamilton when they were in the other formula.
I was just trying to respond to the poster that suggested that Hamilton must be a much better driver than Vettel because he beat him, convincingly, when they (or at least one of them) were (was) a teenager.
Everyone in the same car would be boring and a lot of the appeal is about the big manufacturers trying to beat each other. Perhaps some sort of cost cap would help to narrow the gap though.
Can fan has a good plan. Wouldn't it be great if he had the money to buy out Bernie Ecclestone and implement it? He'd also have enough dosh to buy Charlton Athletic. Be interesting to know his plan for us if that happens?
It is not uncommon for one team to stand out, but last year was decent because there was the battle between Hamilton and Rosberg. Also, there was more overtaking in races than we saw on Sunday. There is no way to stop a team being dominant, but you need overtaking. Also not enough cars on the grid – the back markers create a level of interest too. If FIA have made it harder for cars to overtake this season, they have a big problem. Too early to know yet after just one race.
Everyone in the same car would be boring and a lot of the appeal is about the big manufacturers trying to beat each other. Perhaps some sort of cost cap would help to narrow the gap though.
Comments
It also made it even more amazing when Ricciardo won his 3 races, and the new rule changes meant Force India got a rare podium when their car was driving well at the start, Williams getting back on the podium and Ferrari, McLaren and Red Bull doing surprisingly poorly.
Also the spectacle of the races alone - Monaco, Canada, Hungary, Spa, Bahrain - they were some of the best races of the past few years for the drama and battles from the front to the back of the grid.
I am in agreement that this season looks like it's going to be very boring, dull and predictable, and the FIA need to do something about it and not cost-cut in unnecessary areas (unfreeze engine development during the season maybe?), especially when Germany is looking unlikely to host a GP and maybe other countries may decide not to for economic reasons, especially if races continue to finish with only 11 cars (highly unlikely though).
At least we have rookies like Nasr, Sainz and Verstappen who may surprise a few people, and Ferrari look as if they're improving. Vettel is actually quite likeable now as well.
Give me last year over the 2013 season any day though.
Stick them in a pedal cart and we'll see who the sportsmen are!
In Hamilton's first season at that level, he finished... 5th.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Formula_3_Euro_Series_season
Vettels second season was nowhere near Hamiltons level when he was beaten to the title by Paul Di Resta who can't even get an F1 ride now.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Formula_3_Euro_Series_season
Hamiltons title winning year was more than impressive. It was utter dominance.
Yes Vettel was in his first year, but Hamilton was in his first year in GP2 in 2006 and promptly won that first time out.
Either way it shows the difference between the good (Vettel) and the outstanding (Hamilton).
In F1 it is all about the car but Hamilton hasn't out scored his team mate as consistently as Vettel has.
Vettel is good - but he got schooled by Ricciardo last year, and his record in the junior formulae was not at the level of the Hamiltons of this world. All his titles came in a Red Bull that was on rails (crikey, even Webber almost won a title). Hamilton beat Alonso in his rookie year, won a title in 08 against a strong Ferrari, and won races in 09 in a mclaren that was, by any standards, pants.
Lewis has consistently shown himself to be outstanding in wheel to wheel combat. Last year versus his team mate showed Vettel up in that regard.
As I say, of course Vettel is a good driver.
I just think Lewis (and Alonso) are a level up.
There's the answer. That's the only way to make it interesting.
Also many fans follow a team rather than a driver, you only have to see how many Ferrari, Mercedes and McLaren flags and racewear there are at a race to spot this. By making the cars the same a lot of this team loyalty will go.
Same car formulas have been around for ages ie Indy, F3.5, Formula E, and dont pull in the crowds or money like F1 does, you may as well ask the drivers to drive Ford Fiestas if you want to see the drivers race in equal cars, problem is you would have no tv coverage and fifteen fans and a dog watching.
F1 gets its glamour from big manufacturors, suppliers and sponsors lumping up huge sums to fund the whole televised thing, but because they have gone down this route of incredibly expensive, high tech, fuel efficient, energy recovering turbo engines largely driven by a small number of car manufacturors trying to promote a green image, they are in danger of alienating traditional fans and boring all those who are only occasional viewers.
LMES, formula 1, WRC, WTCC all have cars that dominate, and they are all still perfectly watchable imo
Then there's the GTs and Porsches not to mention stuff like the Bentley races. There's even (still) a quite popular series The TVR European Challenge running cars some of which are pretty much the same as they were in 1989. They are loud, fast and very difficult to drive but great fun to watch.
I think F1 needs to decide whether it's a test bed for technological innovation or a race series. It can't carry on being both. Changing the spec virtually every year is just stupid.
Take the aforementioned TVRs. They've been going for years, the races are short, maybe 30 mins. but a set of tyres might (if you are lucky) last the season - not a third of one race! They still get up to about 190 mph (which is reasonably fast) without the use of all that F1 techno-crap like DRS.
So what would I do with F1? I'd give a point or two for fastest lap as well as pole position. I'd ban tyre changes except for punctures or wet weather - none of that two different compound bollocks. I'd make the races shorter, maybe half the number of laps but run two races per meeting, I'd ban automatic gearboxes, DRS, aerodynamic aids, kinetic motors, and I'd bring the wheels inboard so that they were much less likely to be damaged during the race. I'd remove the maximum amount of fuel that can be used so that drivers didn't have to ponce around adjusting engine settings the whole race.
What about the engines, well a 1.6 litre turbo is an engine for going to Tesco in not for the World's primary (as it would like to think of itself) race series. They are rumoured to knock out about 600hp which, frankly, is pathetic. (Again, some of the old TVRs are close to that and cost their owners peanuts.)
In the USA there are Indycar and NASCAR races. Both sets of cars have a faster top speed than F1 and engines knocking out more horses. It's perhaps no surprise that F1 has had such a hard time breaking in to the lucrative US market.
In NASCAR if it ain't rubbin', it ain't racin'. There's none of that "Alonzo just hit me - give him a drive through penalty" crap.
BTW, don't tell the Americans because they wouldn't like it, but although an Indycar engine block might say Chevrolet on it, it's actually made by Ilmor Engineering in Northamptonshire.
I don't really care, but I don't see how there is any measure that can compare Hamilton with Vettel. The only time they were in comparable cars one was two and a half years older and they were both young. Comparing achievements under 20 is irresponsible. How many times have we seen a youth player that made all his peers look average but he failed to develop and saw those around him go past him?
I think Vettel has developed a lot from the teenager that was beaten by Hamilton when they were in the other formula.
I was just trying to respond to the poster that suggested that Hamilton must be a much better driver than Vettel because he beat him, convincingly, when they (or at least one of them) were (was) a teenager.
This year there's Ginetta G40 Juniors for 14-17 year olds; and the G40s, G50s and G55s that provide for very entertaining racing.
On a different tack, the upcoming Ginetta Juno which is for endurance sports car racing looks like what I think a F1 car should be. ginettajuno.com/